Different views on ability of Adeptus Astartes to upgrade

[Epsolonofthe5th]

Hey folks, so I, (collect BA but that is a rage to salvation story), filter between all of these boards And there is a significant inconsistency about what the sons of Dorn believe and what the Sons of Guilliman hold to be truth about Astrates and the ability to upgrade. What is your source for the ability to power up?

Thanks folks

[Blindhamster]

There is no written source that they can be upgraded and the process to make a primaris marine has two organs going in before almost every other marine organ and the furnace going in after the kidney. It was fully described in white dwarf.

[Marshal Loss]

Essentially, on a Warhammer Live twitch session many months ago, a designer purportedly said that it was possible for marines to 'upgrade'. That is the only time we have ever heard it, but as it has not been officially put into a written source, the reality is that we don't know and it's safer to assume that they can't until such a source eventuates.

[Epsolonofthe5th]

Thanks, guys

[Pulse]

Essentially, on a Warhammer Live twitch session many months ago, a designer purportedly said that it was possible for marines to 'upgrade'. That is the only time we have ever heard it, but as it has not been officially put into a written source, the reality is that we don't know and it's safer to assume that they can't until such a source eventuates.

 

I wouldn't put any merit into that honestly.

 

The Primaris signal a shift, an injection to blow away the stagnation... the stagnation that the chapters of the last 10,000 years have also helped create. If chapters all of a sudden know the secrets of Cawl and his methods and processes, it goes against everything the Primaris were introduced to be, to do.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

The livestream was on May 18 or something like that. I remember the date because this question has come up a lot since then.

 

If it's not canon, it's incredibly dishonest and unwarranted to directly address that question and answer "yes" on the stream, but until we see it in print, we can't consider it canon.

[Rik Lightstar]

The livestream was on May 18 or something like that. I remember the date because this question has come up a lot since then.

 

If it's not canon, it's incredibly dishonest and unwarranted to directly address that question and answer "yes" on the stream, but until we see it in print, we can't consider it canon.

I think the question needs to be acknowledged and answered. It's a little unfair to refer to it as dishonest. You're attributing something to malice where incompetence is a viable explanation. I'd normally side with incompetence.

 

Rik

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Honesty would be either not addressing the question or saying you don't know. IF the answer is "no" and you say "yes", that's dishonest, plain and simple. Doesn't matter if you did it by accident, incorrect information is incorrect information. You don't need to have malicious intent to be dishonest, and if the canonical answer is indeed "no" it IS cruel to appease the masses by answering "yes", even if you didn't mean to. Same way as telling someone with terminal cancer that he's going to live.

[Rik Lightstar]

Dishonesty is by definition telling someone, or allowing them to continue to believe something you know to be false.

 

If you tell someone something you believe to be true and is later proven wrong then you're mistaken not dishonest.

 

Dishonesty implies an intent to deceive.

 

Rik

[Kastor Krieg]

Do we actually have any known characters who have undergone "primarization"? Any sources that say this was done to Marines?

[Frater Cornelius]

No. Nothing in the fluff yet. I think it will be high profile when it happens. If it happens at all, that is.

[Stoic Raptor]

If you tell someone something you believe to be true and is later proven wrong then you're mistaken not dishonest.

 

And if you tell someone something you believe to be true but have no evidence to support that belief, you're speculating.   Speculation without something to back it up is not something GW should be doing on its feeds.  Leave that to the fans.

 

It's not good to develop a reputation for lacking credibility.

[Kastor Krieg]

What are you on about. The dev for all we know might've said the truth, as he knows it, being the omniscient fluff being, He Who Attends The Right Meetings.

So what that SO FAR we do not have any sources confirming this as fact? It doesn't mean it ISN'T.

[Frater Cornelius]

If we are going to see it, then it is when a resin character will be upgraded to plastic Primaris. Most likely, anyway.

[Stoic Raptor]

So what that SO FAR we do not have any sources confirming this as fact? It doesn't mean it ISN'T.

 

So someone said something, they haven't commented on questions about it, they've put nothing in print, and there's absolutely nothing in any game publication supporting the theory... we have a term for that - the word isn't "truth", it's "unsubstantiated rumor".

 

What we do have, is a description of the process of creating a Primaris Marine.  There are unique organs that are implanted early in the process - certainly before the carapace - and it's pretty clear that they can't just go back and put them in afterwards.  So while there's nothing in the lore that says they can upgrade, there's plenty to indicate they can't.

 

Until I see something in a game publication that says existing Astartes can be "Primarized", I'm going to say they can't.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

If we are going to see it, then it is when a resin character will be upgraded to plastic Primaris. Most likely, anyway.

I've got my money on Ragnar. I feel like Krom was a last second switch before they decided on how the whole Primaris thing will work out.

[Kastor Krieg]

So someone said something, they haven't commented on questions about it, they've put nothing in print, and there's absolutely nothing in any game publication supporting the theory... we have a term for that - the word isn't "truth", it's "unsubstantiated rumor".

No, not really. When an actual insider, a person who has access to TRUTH says something IS the TRUTH, then what we have is not a rumour, but an unconfirmed FACT. They may be mistaken, they may have misspoken, they may have overstepped, there may have been changes to the lore since the statement was made or the person may have been unaware of a change made outside of their scope.

 

It's nothing like a rumour when it comes from an insider. If you asked me if I had cake at home and I said "yes", because I bought some nice chocolate cake yesterday, I know better than you would that there is cake or at the very least, there was intent for the cake to be ther. At the same time, I might be unaware that my cat ate it, my sister took it to a party or that it went sour and my mom returned it to the bakery when I was at work. Will "there is cake at Kastor's home now" be true anymore? No, it won't.

 

Still, that doesn't give you the right to call me incompetent, allude that I misguided people or outright lied about the cake. To my best knowledge, that was the case. To the best knowledge of that dev, primarization of Marines is a thing.

 

What we do have, is a description of the process of creating a Primaris Marine.  There are unique organs that are implanted early in the process - certainly before the carapace - and it's pretty clear that they can't just go back and put them in afterwards.  So while there's nothing in the lore that says they can upgrade, there's plenty to indicate they can't.

Says who, exactly? You? Because the only person who KNOWS and is able to make that statement, if true, is Bellisarius Cawl.

 

Until I see something in a game publication that says existing Astartes can be "Primarized", I'm going to say they can't.

Where, instead, you ought to have said "there is strong indication this might not be possible, but we simply do not know that yet".

[Stoic Raptor]

I ought to know better than to attempt reason with people who won't hear it.  You're entitled to your headcanon, I prefer to go by what's in the books - and there's not a thing in the books that supports the possibility of existing Marines becoming Primaris.  Unless and until there is, what you have is fanfic.

[Kastor Krieg]

I ought to know better than to attempt reason with people who won't hear it.  You're entitled to your headcanon, I prefer to go by what's in the books - and there's not a thing in the books that supports the possibility of existing Marines becoming Primaris.  Unless and until there is, what you have is fanfic.

Again, zero headcanon, get off the high horse, pal. I say WE DO NOT KNOW, you say WE DO. 

 

The absence of information is not information at all, especially in the light of the developer's words. If it indeed true and he was right, we may see something in print somewhere down the road. If it is not true, we may see something in print stating that as well or there might be no mention of it.

 

If I was a dev and said "Hey, btw, Cawl gave jetbikes back to the Ravenwing!", then despite the fact that there's nothing in text YET, it does not make this untrue. It's a spoiler for the future, a future that might yet be retconned and not see the light of day, ever. The statement itself though means that yes, in devs' intent, Ravenwing has jetbikes now.

[Frater Cornelius]

Guys, you are getting hung up on this one phrase. We do not have any info regarding this and no knowledge of future plans. It could happen, it could not. Speculation is fine, but not if it means hostility. Examine your thoughts and let it go if you feel the need to retort. Keep it civil, please ;)

[Blindhamster]

the only info we DO have is the order that organs need to be implanted.

Primaris Organs aren't just "tacked on" at the end, 2/3 of them are right at the start of the creation of a primaris marine, before most of the standard astartes organs, and they massively change the childs growth.

 

It may turn out to be possible, but based on the ONLY source of info we have on creating a Primaris marine currently, there's no indication it'd work, much as humans that are too old cannot be made into adeptus astartes.

[deathspectersgt7]

What Biindhamster posted . So when every Chapter gets the tech they can make their own and the need for stunty is no longer needed . Hail Primaris !!!!

[Blindhamster]

I should note, I'd love if it does become possible, as my original plan for my primaris was for Aphael to have been upgraded.

[ninn]

what is this discussion about? The size of the miniatures, or the lore?

 

imho, all new Marines will be Primaris (size), even if wearing older armor.

 

lore-wise: yes, wait for books.

 

If it is about the keyword: Well ... they will have to explain, once the add this keyword to a character.

[ninn]

wasn't the reason this controversy started, when GW brought out a primaris model with some service studs on its forehead?

 

Wouldn't that be enough reason for "normal marines can be upgraded to chadmarines?"