Gaunt's Ghosts: The Warmaster

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Thank you ladz.

 

Much appreciated.

[Ranwulf]

The Gaunt's Ghosts series starts around 765.M41, though the prequel stories stretch back to the 750s.

 

KingHongKong,

 

Other characters reference that Gaunt wasn't just in Slaydo's inner circle, but that he was thought to be considered for succession. You are correct, however, that it's suspect for a Warmaster in charge of as many as thirty Army Groups (easily millions of Guardsmen) to consider someone their successor when they haven't even held command. It's likely that Abnett, who was a younger, less experienced author then, just didn't have as good a grasp of higher-echelon military structures back then. The Tanith Regiments may very well have been a first step in grooming Gaunt for future endeavors. It's still jarring, however, that this concept has been bounced around a few times before Warmaster without any serious discussion as to whether or not Gaunt has been held back.

 

I think, considering that Gaunt got his own regiment to take care of, that Slaydo was grooming Gaunt for the leadership position, and thats why he was considered to some degree.

[Phoebus]

I think, considering that Gaunt got his own regiment to take care of, that Slaydo was grooming Gaunt for the leadership position, and thats why he was considered to some degree.

 

I agree about the grooming part. It's a massive leap to translate that to "considered as his successor," though, which is the line that is mentioned 2-3 times throughout the series. There is a huge difference in the scope of responsibilities of someone commanding even 10,000-20,000 men (had all the Tanith been rescued) and someone commanding millions of Guardsmen across as many as thirty Army Groups, each with dozens of subordinate regiments. Slaydo could absolutely have recognized Gaunt's genius, but I struggle to see how he could realistically have  had any intention of him being his successor around the time of his death. Slaydo may very well have thought he'd live far longer than he did, and may very well have had a long-term plan to groom a successor other than Macaroth, but that's different from what is presented.

[Sothalor]

I think the whole "Gaunt as Warmaster" is less something that Slaydo definitively had in mind and more a convenient option presented to the various Lords Militant who'd decided that Macaroth had to go. Gaunt, promoted into their ranks posthumously and jolted ten years by the warp, is essentially an ideal puppet. He's a person with the glory and reputation but he does actually lack the direct experience of commanding a crusade. He would be dependent on the Lords Militant coaching and guiding him. It's less "Ah, the chosen of Slaydo has arrived!" and more "How convenient, the perfect monkey's paw to nominate forward so we can get rid of Macaroth through institutional processes!"

[DukeLeto69]

 

I think, considering that Gaunt got his own regiment to take care of, that Slaydo was grooming Gaunt for the leadership position, and thats why he was considered to some degree.

 

 

I agree about the grooming part. It's a massive leap to translate that to "considered as his successor," though, which is the line that is mentioned 2-3 times throughout the series. There is a huge difference in the scope of responsibilities of someone commanding even 10,000-20,000 men (had all the Tanith been rescued) and someone commanding millions of Guardsmen across as many as thirty Army Groups, each with dozens of subordinate regiments. Slaydo could absolutely have recognized Gaunt's genius, but I struggle to see how he could realistically have  had any intention of him being his successor around the time of his death. Slaydo may very well have thought he'd live far longer than he did, and may very well have had a long-term plan to groom a successor other than Macaroth, but that's different from what is presented.

I agree to a point and above said that the leap seems too far from Colonel to Lord Militant Commander (never have understood these Imperial Guard, oops, Astra Miliatrum staff ranks) but I reckon Abnett can argue that Slaydo had a longer term plan AND since his death, and illustrated during the GG series, Gaunt and his Tanith have been used to further the ambitions of others or as cannon fodder in meat grinder actions due to a General having a feud or grievance against Gaunt. I think it could be agreed that Gaunt has been held back by powerful people BUT once he was "dead" even they had to concede the positive impact he and the Tanity had had on the crusade (Macaroth even says something along these lines).

 

Personally I doubt Abnett had this idea for Gaunt's ascension before the Victory arc but clearly I don't know that. If he had then Gaunt would have received promotion off the back of Verghast where he took effective control of the whole war zone)

[Phoebus]

I'm not opposed to the idea that Slaydo had a long-term plan. What I'm getting is at is that there are 2-3, maybe more, occasions throughout the series, and before the Victory arc, where Gaunt being Slaydo's successor upon his death was something that was seriously considered. A reader may infer that there were efforts to hold Gaunt back during the novels preceding Warmaster, but I can't recall any such effort being described or even alluded to in the series.

[Petitioner's City]

Is anyone else concerning the Chasses

confused how Lord Chass apparently didn't die in Necropolis anymore - it was mentioned in Salvation's Reach and is discussed in this novel that Chass was alive. It also seems to be that House Sonder still exists, with members vying for the head of the hive. Fascinating.

 

 

 

I think, considering that Gaunt got his own regiment to take care of, that Slaydo was grooming Gaunt for the leadership position, and thats why he was considered to some degree.

 

I agree about the grooming part. It's a massive leap to translate that to "considered as his successor," though, which is the line that is mentioned 2-3 times throughout the series. There is a huge difference in the scope of responsibilities of someone commanding even 10,000-20,000 men (had all the Tanith been rescued) and someone commanding millions of Guardsmen across as many as thirty Army Groups, each with dozens of subordinate regiments. Slaydo could absolutely have recognized Gaunt's genius, but I struggle to see how he could realistically have  had any intention of him being his successor around the time of his death. Slaydo may very well have thought he'd live far longer than he did, and may very well have had a long-term plan to groom a successor other than Macaroth, but that's different from what is presented.

 

 

Not merely millions of guardsmen, but Adeptus Astartes, Titan Legions, Ecclesiarchy soldiers, and so on - all had sworn oaths to Slaydo and then Maccaroth, who commanded them, as the appointed representative of the Emperor

[Perrin]

I've been a Black Library fan for about a decade, and I can't believe it's taken me this long to read the Gaunt's Ghosts series.

 

The first omnibus ebook for £15 seemed a good deal, and with The Warmaster coming out I thought I'd give it a shot so I've spent the last fortnight reading through the entire collection and just finished The Warmaster today.

 

Have to agree with some previous posters that Only In Death is the best of the series. The bit near the end with ​that ​sanctioned psyker was one of the strongest scenes I've read in BL.

 

 

RE Gaunt's career progression:

 

I totally get the feeling that his advancement was rushed, and it would have been helped if he had progressed further before The Warmaster (he more than earned a promotion), but I think it's his disappearance is what seals it. 

 

After he is declared MIA/presumed dead, he is posthumously elevated to Lord Militant. I don't think that this is in direct recognition of his deeds - as others have said, although he is a hero and vastly capable officer, it's a huge rise - I think it was a political play by the other Lord Militants (probably Van Voytz) for the same reason that Julius & Augustus Caesar were deified posthumously. The person who managed to honour and celebrate this dead hero of the Crusade the most would win huge publicity points. They assume he's dead so the promotion is meaningless.

 

Then he returns from the dead, and that reputation and publicity means that to demote him would catastrophically damage morale at a time that the Crusade is floundering. Not only that, Van Voytz and Co see it as a perfect opportunity to use him as a puppet to usurp Macaroth

 

Other thoughts on the events of Warmaster:

 

Ezra's death was a big shock, but I find it hard to believe that someone as spineless as Brenner could have survived so long as a Commissar, even if he had only been appointed to parade/reserve regiments. Also didn't like that Wilder fell so easily into Meryn's gang of feths, or that Meryn himself seemed to become pretty evil without much development. 

 

There's no way that Mkoll is dead, Mkoll tar Mortek!!

 

Final thing, regarding Yoncy:

 

What on earth is happening there? Possible psyker, don't think she's possessed though as Dan did that same thing already with Carl Thonius in Ravenor. I read back and Yoncy is definitely described as a He by the mother and by Criid, so why is he/she now a girl? And without Criid, Gol, Dalin or any of the camp followers that have helped raise her noticing.

 

It could be that Dan just mixed up the details and Gol noticing is his way of fixing it, but I hope it's actually something more than that, it was one of the dangling plot threads that I was more interested in by the end of the book. That one scene where it describes Yoncy playing jump-rope with some other kids after having her head shaved is really creepy, left me wondering what she actually is.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

 

I've been a Black Library fan for about a decade, and I can't believe it's taken me this long to read the Gaunt's Ghosts series.

 

The first omnibus ebook for £15 seemed a good deal, and with The Warmaster coming out I thought I'd give it a shot so I've spent the last fortnight reading through the entire collection and just finished The Warmaster today.

 

Have to agree with some previous posters that Only In Death is the best of the series. The bit near the end with ​that ​sanctioned psyker was one of the strongest scenes I've read in BL.

 

 

RE Gaunt's career progression:

 

I totally get the feeling that his advancement was rushed, and it would have been helped if he had progressed further before The Warmaster (he more than earned a promotion), but I think it's his disappearance is what seals it. 

 

After he is declared MIA/presumed dead, he is posthumously elevated to Lord Militant. I don't think that this is in direct recognition of his deeds - as others have said, although he is a hero and vastly capable officer, it's a huge rise - I think it was a political play by the other Lord Militants (probably Van Voytz) for the same reason that Julius & Augustus Caesar were deified posthumously. The person who managed to honour and celebrate this dead hero of the Crusade the most would win huge publicity points. They assume he's dead so the promotion is meaningless.

 

Then he returns from the dead, and that reputation and publicity means that to demote him would catastrophically damage morale at a time that the Crusade is floundering. Not only that, Van Voytz and Co see it as a perfect opportunity to use him as a puppet to usurp Macaroth

 

Other thoughts on the events of Warmaster:

 

Ezra's death was a big shock, but I find it hard to believe that someone as spineless as Brenner could have survived so long as a Commissar, even if he had only been appointed to parade/reserve regiments. Also didn't like that Wilder fell so easily into Meryn's gang of feths, or that Meryn himself seemed to become pretty evil without much development. 

 

There's no way that Mkoll is dead, Mkoll tar Mortek!!

 

Final thing, regarding Yoncy:

 

What on earth is happening there? Possible psyker, don't think she's possessed though as Dan did that same thing already with Carl Thonius in Ravenor. I read back and Yoncy is definitely described as a He by the mother and by Criid, so why is he/she now a girl? And without Criid, Gol, Dalin or any of the camp followers that have helped raise her noticing.

 

It could be that Dan just mixed up the details and Gol noticing is his way of fixing it, but I hope it's actually something more than that, it was one of the dangling plot threads that I was more interested in by the end of the book. That one scene where it describes Yoncy playing jump-rope with some other kids after having her head shaved is really creepy, left me wondering what she actually is.

 

I vaguely remember Dan mentioning at one point in an interview that the mixup was an accident- I guess he decided to take that and leverage it into  what seems to be a major plot point. I'm going to take an educated guess and say that this "Yoncy" is some kind of warp-spawned/corrupted plant by Sek (i.e., perhaps there actually WAS a male Yoncy was was replaced...or something...or something with weird warpish time manipulation), who intended on the Ghosts getting this close to the Warmaster the entire time (Gaunt points out that this could be the case, as was mentioned earlier in this thread).

 

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

I've been a Black Library fan for about a decade, and I can't believe it's taken me this long to read the Gaunt's Ghosts series.

The first omnibus ebook for £15 seemed a good deal, and with The Warmaster coming out I thought I'd give it a shot so I've spent the last fortnight reading through the entire collection and just finished The Warmaster today.

Have to agree with some previous posters that Only In Death is the best of the series. The bit near the end with ​that ​sanctioned psyker was one of the strongest scenes I've read in BL.

 

RE Gaunt's career progression:

I totally get the feeling that his advancement was rushed, and it would have been helped if he had progressed further before The Warmaster (he more than earned a promotion), but I think it's his disappearance is what seals it.

After he is declared MIA/presumed dead, he is posthumously elevated to Lord Militant. I don't think that this is in direct recognition of his deeds - as others have said, although he is a hero and vastly capable officer, it's a huge rise - I think it was a political play by the other Lord Militants (probably Van Voytz) for the same reason that Julius & Augustus Caesar were deified posthumously. The person who managed to honour and celebrate this dead hero of the Crusade the most would win huge publicity points. They assume he's dead so the promotion is meaningless.

Then he returns from the dead, and that reputation and publicity means that to demote him would catastrophically damage morale at a time that the Crusade is floundering. Not only that, Van Voytz and Co see it as a perfect opportunity to use him as a puppet to usurp Macaroth

Other thoughts on the events of Warmaster:

Ezra's death was a big shock, but I find it hard to believe that someone as spineless as Brenner could have survived so long as a Commissar, even if he had only been appointed to parade/reserve regiments. Also didn't like that Wilder fell so easily into Meryn's gang of feths, or that Meryn himself seemed to become pretty evil without much development.

There's no way that Mkoll is dead, Mkoll tar Mortek!!

Final thing, regarding Yoncy:

What on earth is happening there? Possible psyker, don't think she's possessed though as Dan did that same thing already with Carl Thonius in Ravenor. I read back and Yoncy is definitely described as a He by the mother and by Criid, so why is he/she now a girl? And without Criid, Gol, Dalin or any of the camp followers that have helped raise her noticing.

It could be that Dan just mixed up the details and Gol noticing is his way of fixing it, but I hope it's actually something more than that, it was one of the dangling plot threads that I was more interested in by the end of the book. That one scene where it describes Yoncy playing jump-rope with some other kids after having her head shaved is really creepy, left me wondering what she actually is.

 

I vaguely remember Dan mentioning at one point in an interview that the mixup was an accident- I guess he decided to take that and leverage it into what seems to be a major plot point. I'm going to take an educated guess and say that this "Yoncy" is some kind of warp-spawned/corrupted plant by Sek (i.e., perhaps there actually WAS a male Yoncy was was replaced...or something...or something with weird warpish time manipulation), who intended on the Ghosts getting this close to the Warmaster the entire time (Gaunt points out that this could be the case, as was mentioned earlier in this thread).

Re Yoncy's gender, consider also mabbon's and, later, grey & laksheema's discussion of gender in the heretic language (things are female) & the born/constructed translation - could this be yoncy as much as the eight stones? Also how did the resupply short allude to her(/him)?

[Plaguecaster]

I finally managed to find the time to read War master after finally getting the time to read it. it only took a few hours of dedicated reading but I really liked it

 

I won't go on about already discussed topics, instead even though I know it's more of a lesser plot within the novel concerning everything else but I'm really curious on how the events with Felyx being revealed as a girl play out especially with Meryn and Blenner as the fate of Ezra was quite sad. I also hope Ludd is there for the outcome of it and doesn't get sent off somewhere again (I was also surprised Rawne or even Criid could even order him since even though he is young he's still a commissar) I really prefer him as a character more than Dalin though hopefully he doesn't get killed as it's quite cool having a Commissar like him who is completely different from Gaunt or even Hark

 

I also hope that if Saint Sabbat appears in the next novel then Milo will return as well since he became her companion

[Petitioner's City]

I finally managed to find the time to read War master after finally getting the time to read it. it only took a few hours of dedicated reading but I really liked it

 

I won't go on about already discussed topics, instead even though I know it's more of a lesser plot within the novel concerning everything else but I'm really curious on how the events with Felyx being revealed as a girl play out especially with Meryn and Blenner as the fate of Ezra was quite sad. I also hope Ludd is there for the outcome of it and doesn't get sent off somewhere again (I was also surprised Rawne or even Criid could even order him since even though he is young he's still a commissar) I really prefer him as a character more than Dalin though hopefully he doesn't get killed as it's quite cool having a Commissar like him who is completely different from Gaunt or even Hark

 

I also hope that if Saint Sabbat appears in the next novel then Milo will return as well since he became her companion

 

I listened to the audiobook of it rather than read it (Salvation's Reach was also excellent, although I preferred its reader's three regimental accents versus Warmaster's  only really two), but it left me with lots of thoughts. (can all the ghosts become audio books???)

 

 

Is there nothing more joyous than hearing 'tread-fether', 'gak' and 'feth' again?

 

I presume Eadwine (how did I never realise he had an Anglo-Saxon name ?? most excellent!) or Holofernes or both or all three will turn up in Urdesh - if it is still being written. I also presume it matches more Anarch than just Warmaster, which is really a tale of three days, one on the ship, and the first 24-48 hours on Urdesh itself. 

 

Very excited with the career progression of Gaunt (and now Rawne). There was a lot of humour here, and the familiarity of the main characters to both reader/listener and one another was a very warm wash, like how I imagine good amasec is. Gods, I had missed these people. 

 

I liked how Abnett really has developed the "retinue" - making this community of soldiers feel more real by expanding who makes it up. It's a situation that really makes sense for regiments and divisions which never see home again, and I loved the allusion to how if they had not signed the bond, they probably would never see one another again. I imagine this is common with Guard regiments, but I wish the codices and other kinds of books acknowledged this. 

 

The changes in fluff since 2011 were to some extent acknowledged in the Sabbat Crusades anthology by Abnett easily incorporating Astra Militarum. But here I loved his treatment of the Scions and little things like the Taurox, while holding on to the world he has created and indeed shaped the creation of since 1998. Gods, the scions were great. 'Go stand in a line facing a fething wall'. Excellent. 

 

As I mentioned upthread some mistakes by Abnett are interesting. Lord Chass survived Necropolis despite dying. And Macaroth apparently wanted to meet Gaunt after the events of Necropolis, but apparently not. And Merity seems colder than she was then, but she is older. It does explain that Felyx has been advanced in age so she is older than her natural age, which helped appease some of my worries from 2011. Further, Vervunhive's politics of gender are expanded on - it is patriarchy personified, which was not quite how it seemed in Necropolis. There were no female soldiers in Necropolis but thankfully it seems that its military was (a) always equal, or ( this emerged because of the war. At least a small ray of sunshine, and he explores that in this novel with Pasha and Zhukova. But has Abnett forgotten that Sonder ruled the hive before Necropolis? And on the issue of the succession, argh how frustrating that birth sex identity matters - utter    ...

 

In some senses, what happens in this novel makes even more prescient Gaunt's disappointment in Honour Guard - the funk he was in in that novel. It wasn't just religion. After high command in Necropolis this was the path he could have been on, but was restricted from through people like 'fething Lugo' (a wonderful joke in this novel, except he probably does continue to get men and women killed uselessly) and just leading a tiny regiment. It is ironic that Grizimund was promoted and not Gaunt, given that he deferred to Gaunt at Vervunhive (although Grizimund is recent, and also the Narmenians seem to be major regimental players in the crusade, given their mentions and also the pictures on the wall). Also I liked how Van Voytz and Cybon were depicted in this novel - politicking, but from a place of ideology and belief, not simply power for power's sake - which is why they could accept Macaroth when he returned. Also finally we get to meet all the other names from the Background book - Blackwood, Urienz and others - who didn't disappoint. 

 

Within the ghosts, finally Criid is captain. It is great how Hark, Fazykial, Blenner and Ludd are differentiated - each is great character, and the latter three got lots of character development in this novel. Of the ghosts themselves, it was nice to spend time with Domor again, and to meet properly Pasha, to have Gaunt's perspective on her. Zhukova was excellent, and Mkoll himself is always worth spending time with. It is interesting how much of the background Larkin is recently - he is just the 'old sniper', isn't he? Presumably he's doing Larkin things in the background, though 

 

What happens with Felyx - people don't seem to like him-now-her. I rather do. She's young, imperious, nervous, in hiding, and both independent and dependent. I was worried 'he' was ill, but then that wasn't the case, thankfully. This is more interesting, and allowed Abnett to further explore gender. How many of you read Nik Vincent's blog? I imagine gender politics are a subject often discussed in the Vincent-Abnett household, given the crap they sometimes experience, and given Vincent's own political discussions online - check out her excellent blogs on the harassment scandal, sex & power, and metoo, as well as their twitter. 

 

Do you think this is the last we see of Mabbon? What will happen with Kolea? Laksheema is interesting - not a brutal ideologue, someone more ... considerate and political. Gray was striking too. 

 

What themes were there in this novel? Lots. But the one that kept coming across most for me was memory. Institutional memory, individual memory, loss of memory. How what is remembered and misremembered runs significantly through the novel, from Mkoll's opening loss of memory, and therefore identity, to the memory of Gaunt allowing his promotion, to the memory of Slaydo as Macaroth piteously whines 'I miss Slaydo'. I need to think more on this, but I did love how woven through the novel memory and identity were. 

 

And Macaroth himself. What an excellent final introduction. Brilliant. The details such as the little heaters in the corner, the scion tempestor poking his head through the door (presumably to see the warmaster), the jacket with medals, the agreement over third person self-referencing, etc.

 

Really, Salvation's Reach was utterly confident as a novel, and this even more so. How much of this novel was people talking, and how much descriptions of things - from the Armaduke to the city to the fortress? This was such a respite, with funny moments, deep sadness, excellent visual and kinesthetic language, and so on. A strong continuation of Abnett's style seen in his later books. I can't wait for Anarch, although obviously I can - we waited six years for this. 

 

Finally on the Saint and Milo

 

 

Milo is gonna be much older. This is the chronology of the series:

 

 

755 – beginning of crusade 

755 - Opening of the crusade

765 – Balhaut 

765 – Ghostmaker, early 

765/6 – First and Only 

767 – Ghostmaker/Monthax chapters 

769 – Necropolis 

770 – Honour Guard 

771, late – Guns of Tanith  

772 – Straight Silver 

773 – Double Eagle; Sabbat Martyr 

774 – Traitor General 

776 – His Last Command 

777 – The Armour of Contempt  

778 – Only in Death 

780 – Blood Pact 

781 – Salvation’s Reach 

791 – The Warmaster  

 

He was presumably 13-15 in Ghostmaker (665) so he couldn't be a soldier, until Necropolis. That means he will be nearly 40 (13+26) or over 40 (15+26)! If anyone is asking why the timejump...that will be one of the most interesting consequences, Milo will be older than Daur, Kolea, Rawne or even Gaunt when we first met!

 

 

Also, for anyone in the UK, you might want to catch University Challenge on the 29th  :

 

 

 

Dan Abnett + Nik‏Verified account @VincentAbnett  Dec 20

A couple of weeks ago, in a mood of what the hell, I agreed to public humiliation on national tv at Christmas…. I mean, I agreed to participate in a beloved National Institution. with @EmmaKennedy @annabotting Richard Gozney and Jeremy Paxman December 29th, BBC2 6.30 PM

[Donkey Kong]

I liked how Abnett really has developed the "retinue" - making this community of soldiers feel more real by expanding who makes it up. It's a situation that really makes sense for regiments and divisions which never see home again, and I loved the allusion to how if they had not signed the bond, they probably would never see one another again. I imagine this is common with Guard regiments, but I wish the codices and other kinds of books acknowledged this. 

 

I still have mixed thoughts on the regimental retinue, or at least how Abnett describes it as a seemingly random collection of everyone from spouses and children (which I think is an idea introduced in Rogue Trader) to arbitrary tagalongs building gambling dens and prostitutes soliciting soldiers. It's an idea that has its merits and I'd probably enjoy it a lot more if it was only limited to the former, and that collection of people were assigned tasks like assisting in the infirmary or manual labor for logistics. I also think the idea would have benefitted from being introduced earlier, and by earlier I mean First and Only and having a healthy number of Tanith refugees (which would have cheapened Milo as the last reminder of home and a regimental mascot or Gaunt lecturing Caffran on wedding his wife only to abandon her on the planet the next day, but that's neither here nor there). I'm glad Abnett's version hasn't been widely adopted yet since it doesn't strike me as a well thought out idea and more of an excuse for Yoncy to have a full time babysitter.

 

Felyx Chass Spoiler

It does explain that Felyx has been advanced in age so she is older than her natural age, which helped appease some of my worries from 2011. Further, Vervunhive's politics of gender are expanded on - it is patriarchy personified, which was not quite how it seemed in Necropolis. There were no female soldiers in Necropolis but thankfully it seems that its military was (a) always equal, or ( this emerged because of the war. At least a small ray of sunshine, and he explores that in this novel with Pasha and Zhukova. But has Abnett forgotten that Sonder ruled the hive before Necropolis? And on the issue of the succession, argh how frustrating that birth sex identity matters - utter    ...

 

What happens with Felyx - people don't seem to like him-now-her. I rather do. She's young, imperious, nervous, in hiding, and both independent and dependent. I was worried 'he' was ill, but then that wasn't the case, thankfully. This is more interesting, and allowed Abnett to further explore gender. How many of you read Nik Vincent's blog? I imagine gender politics are a subject often discussed in the Vincent-Abnett household, given the crap they sometimes experience, and given Vincent's own political discussions online - check out her excellent blogs on the harassment scandal, sex & power, and metoo, as well as their twitter. 

 

I don't like gender politicking. Suffice it to say, I don't read Warhammer 40,000 books to get transitive lectures from Nik, and if this is the last time any permutation of the word "misogynist" pokes its head into this universe, it'll be too soon.

 

My problem with Felyx is that she doesn't make sense. I was never under the impression that she was "imperious" or "independent," and not diminutive, incompetent, weak, or stupid, and this isn't something that changed when its revealed that she's a woman. I didn't like her in Salvation's Reach either, and in retrospect I think I would have enjoyed that book significantly more without the reinforcement intake and a roster of characters that have only fallen flat since their introduction (here's looking at you Wilder).

 

So, let's give Abnett whatever he wants to add in addendum to Vervunhive or Verghast after Necropolis, Merity can't rule because she's a woman and must use her child as a political tool to rule in her "son's" stead until "he" returns a war hero. It's forced and it isn't in line with what I remember from Necropolis or Merity Chass, but fine. We now have a character (Felyx) with a goal (return to Vervunhive to rule), and a way to achieve that goal (become a war hero). Why isn't Felyx given the tools to become a war hero? Her growth is accelerated (she's only about 10 years old). Why doesn't she know how to fight? Why isn't she a glory hound? Why isn't she a charismatic leader?

 

These tools aren't foreign to the universe, they're not even foreign to the books she's in! Maddalena is a cyborg or at least genetically enhanced, why isn't Felyx? Maddalena is made to look like Merity. Why isn't Felyx made to look like Gaunt? If Abnett wanted to talk about gender issues, he could at least make it interesting. Would Felyx be a better character if she was forcibly trans? I don't know, but at least it would be different, and at least it would make more sense than squeezing her into a girdle. Spoiler from 1998, in the making of Mulan (first minute), they talk about how in one of their earliest drafts Mulan was selfish and wanted to get away from her cultural constraints, and found that they had made an unlikable character. That sounds a lot like Felyx, and the result is the same.

 

I don't know how else to describe how terrible a character Felyx is. We could have had a child in an adult's body given the growth acceleration (i.e. Shazam). We could have had Gaunt's pre pubescent child in the retinue camps giving Gaunt a more vested interest in protecting everyone aboard the Armaduke and constantly worrying about his young child and a playmate for Yoncy. We could have avoided this entire subplot that ends with the same stupid, weak character getting knocked out for the umpteenth time and Ezrah's unsatisfactory death.

 

Finally on the Saint and Milo

 

Milo is gonna be much older. This is the chronology of the series:

 

 

755 – beginning of crusade 

755 - Opening of the crusade

765 – Balhaut 

765 – Ghostmaker, early 

765/6 – First and Only 

767 – Ghostmaker/Monthax chapters 

769 – Necropolis 

770 – Honour Guard 

771, late – Guns of Tanith  

772 – Straight Silver 

773 – Double Eagle; Sabbat Martyr 

774 – Traitor General 

776 – His Last Command 

777 – The Armour of Contempt  

778 – Only in Death 

780 – Blood Pact 

781 – Salvation’s Reach 

791 – The Warmaster  

 

He was presumably 13-15 in Ghostmaker (665) so he couldn't be a soldier, until Necropolis. That means he will be nearly 40 (13+26) or over 40 (15+26)! If anyone is asking why the timejump...that will be one of the most interesting consequences, Milo will be older than Daur, Kolea, Rawne or even Gaunt when we first met!

 

I've acknowledged that an older Milo is the last possible interesting consequence of a ten year time jump since nothing else of significance changed. My problem is that there was already an 8 year gap between Salvation's Reach and Sabbat Martyr. So, what's the significant difference between meeting Milo in his mid thirties instead of his early forties?

 

Edit Grammar

[Plaguecaster]

Edit: ignore

[Phoebus]

I still have mixed thoughts on the regimental retinue, or at least how Abnett describes it as a seemingly random collection of everyone from spouses and children (which I think is an idea introduced in Rogue Trader) to arbitrary tagalongs building gambling dens and prostitutes soliciting soldiers. It's an idea that has its merits and I'd probably enjoy it a lot more if it was only limited to the former, and that collection of people were assigned tasks like assisting in the infirmary or manual labor for logistics.

It’s quite an old concept, and probably as old as long-term warfare. Alexander the Great, for instance, marched through most of Asia with an army that was probably almost matched in number by its retinue, which also included merchants, tradesmen, prostitutes, etc.

 

I also think the idea would have benefitted from being introduced earlier, and by earlier I mean First and Only and having a healthy number of Tanith refugees (which would have cheapened Milo as the last reminder of home and a regimental mascot or Gaunt lecturing Caffran on wedding his wife only to abandon her on the planet the next day, but that's neither here nor there).

The thing is, that undermines so many memorable moments of this series, to say nothing of one of the fundamental underpinnings of the series: that the Ghosts have lost their planet and their people.

 

I'm glad Abnett's version hasn't been widely adopted yet since it doesn't strike me as a well thought out idea and more of an excuse for Yoncy to have a full time babysitter.

It’s funny, I’ve been re-reading the series, and when I got to the part of The Guns of Tanith where Gol Korea is spying on Yoncy from a prostitute’s tent, I thought the same thing. What do you mean by “hasn’t been widely adopted yet,” though?

[Guest]

Sorry to barge in but, got the collectors edition as a early Xmas gift and the Tanith Tactical is blank. I am not familiar with gaunts ghosts as I am just barely starting the trilogy. Is it supposed to be a joke or did I get a misprint? (Already got one misprinted book this year).

[Sothalor]

It's a notebook, a journal.

 

The intent is that you take something that leaves physical markings upon paper - a pen, pencil, crayon, the blood of your enemies, or whatever - and write in it. Or draw. You're not limited in how you choose to use sheets of paper.

[Guest]

Ah I thought it was an actual book, that described the Tanith tactics (hence tactical Tanith) not a journal. Thank you.

[Donkey Kong]

It’s quite an old concept, and probably as old as long-term warfare. Alexander the Great, for instance, marched through most of Asia with an army that was probably almost matched in number by its retinue, which also included merchants, tradesmen, prostitutes, etc.

 

Certainly, and I'm sure that you could give me an entire list of examples up to and including including modern military spouses living abroad on bases. I'd prefer the regimental retinue if they were more in line with that though and only included spouses and children, and not whatever random cobbler or prostitute felt like hopping aboard a spaceship. I'm sure we could talk for hours about how professional we'd like the Imperial military to be, how difficult we'd like movement in the Imperium to be, and what Imperial ships should be like on a sliding scale from modern aircraft carriers to mega cities, but I'd rather not derail.

 

I'm not saying that there's no room for people in the Imperium to profiteer off of soldiers by building businesses around planet side Imperial bases, Daur's wife Elodie was introduced as one in Blood Pact. All I'm saying is that I think that characters, like say whatever Yoncy's babysitter's name is, would be better if they had some passing line telling us that this is so and so's wife instead of her just being there and sticking around.

 

When I say "an idea introduced in Rogue Trader," I'm referring to this line "Of real interest is the tradition of a form of caravan train that accompany the Imperial Guard regiments. Sons of Guardsmen are recruited into the Guard at a young age and train alongside their brethren. Again, not only a band of brothers, but a family unit almost." from this blog post referencing the 1989 Warhammer 40,000 Compendium of White Dwarf articles.

 

The thing is, that undermines so many memorable moments of this series, to say nothing of one of the fundamental underpinnings of the series: that the Ghosts have lost their planet and their people.

 

Only insofar as First and Only and Ghostmaker, and I'd argue that giving the ghosts a family in the camp followers undermines that anyway. I know I already used the example in my last post, but it sticks out in my mind far more than any of the instances of Rawne holding a knife to Gaunt's throat, Gaunt has a talk with Caffran and scolds him saying that Caffran abandoned his new wife when he joined the Guard. That's harsh, that's cruel, that stings, and at the time when we didn't know any better it was probably true. A dozen-ish books later and Ban Daur is getting married to a woman he met on a military base during R&R in front of the ghosts new adoptive family before raiding Salvation's Reach. I'm not criticizing Abnett for changing his mind over the course of a decade, I'm saying that if he had the opportunity to do it again, it's something I think he should have done from the beginning. Even then, following what I'd like it would only be wives and children, the ghosts would still have lost relatives and loved ones as well as their home world. If it were Tanith refugees in general, you'd have the opportunity to have an influx of soldiers who never wanted to be soldiers and their children to follow them even if that is a retroactive retread of the initial Vervenhive intake.

 

It’s funny, I’ve been re-reading the series, and when I got to the part of The Guns of Tanith where Gol Korea is spying on Yoncy from a prostitute’s tent, I thought the same thing. What do you mean by “hasn’t been widely adopted yet,” though?

 

Maybe I haven't been reading the right Imperial Guard books, but I can't recall any other instance in the last decade that includes a regimental camp following.

 

I'm not sure where to fit this above, but there's also a point to be made that every time the Ghosts get reinforced, the reinforcements should have come with their own camp followers to intermingle with the existing camp. I know they're books about the guard and the camp followers are only tangentially related, but I think that that would be a slice of life story worth reading and more interesting than most of Abnett's side plots even if it's just vapid conversation. I think the closest we got was Elodie learning how to be an officer's wife. So, I guess I'm saying that Elodie learning how to collect her husband's dry cleaning and associated gossip was more interesting than Jakub Wilder's stupid band regiment or Gaunt's son or any number of times Abnett decided to put his characters on trial.

 

Edited out fairly major spoiler

[Lucerne]

I suspect there's an element to the Chaos strategy that the protagonists have missed.

 

 

Assume that the Archenemy defection was an elaborate ruse- which frankly should have been the Imperial reaction and what the Ordos seems to favor.

 

Then Sek and Gaur are on the same page with the infighting over the years for the sake of appearances. This book makes it clear that if Sek is, in fact, insane or subordinate, it isn't stopping him from being clever and working towards a plan.

 

A recurring theme in the Ghosts series is that Chaos forces are not actually frothing idiots- there's a plan behind a lot of what they do even if it's warped by Imperial standards.

 

Then there's actually a goal being worked towards- decapitation of the Crusade leadership...and almost as important, making the Crusade throw away strategic gains for the sake of decapitation.

 

Remember the Saint's strategy in her first appearance? Drawing the Archenemy into a strategically senseless battle to eliminate her...at the cost of the wider war. If Sek/Gaur learned from that and are applying it in a mirror image to cause the Crusade to split their forces under false pretenses, then the presence of so much of the Crusade on Urdesh- the Warmaster, the Saint, splitting forces thin and getting bogged down in a quagmire takes on an even darker tone.

 

My guess for what the Chaos plan is a)get Yoncy/the eagle stones to where Sek is, ie: Urdesh, probably to pull some unpleasant party trick to get rid of the Warmaster and/or the Saint.

 

But the other part is for Gaur to simultaneously take advantage of the weakened and less competent Imperial force against him to wipe them out at a stroke and basically take out a good half of the body of the Crusade while Sek removes the head.

 

Obviously given this arc is called "the Victory" they won't pull it off completely, but I imagine there'll be a boodbath and it'll be a near thing.

[DukeLeto69]

Ah I thought it was an actual book, that described the Tanith tactics (hence tactical Tanith) not a journal. Thank you.

If I was you I would be a bit disappointed. It SHOULD be a book with content for the extortionate price of the LE. Very poor in my opinion and the reason I didn't bother. However, the novel is great!

[DukeLeto69]

I suspect there's an element to the Chaos strategy that the protagonists have missed.

 

 

Assume that the Archenemy defection was an elaborate ruse- which frankly should have been the Imperial reaction and what the Ordos seems to favor.

 

Then Sek and Gaur are on the same page with the infighting over the years for the sake of appearances. This book makes it clear that if Sek is, in fact, insane or subordinate, it isn't stopping him from being clever and working towards a plan.

 

A recurring theme in the Ghosts series is that Chaos forces are not actually frothing idiots- there's a plan behind a lot of what they do even if it's warped by Imperial standards.

 

Then there's actually a goal being worked towards- decapitation of the Crusade leadership...and almost as important, making the Crusade throw away strategic gains for the sake of decapitation.

 

Remember the Saint's strategy in her first appearance? Drawing the Archenemy into a strategically senseless battle to eliminate her...at the cost of the wider war. If Sek/Gaur learned from that and are applying it in a mirror image to cause the Crusade to split their forces under false pretenses, then the presence of so much of the Crusade on Urdesh- the Warmaster, the Saint, splitting forces thin and getting bogged down in a quagmire takes on an even darker tone.

 

My guess for what the Chaos plan is a)get Yoncy/the eagle stones to where Sek is, ie: Urdesh, probably to pull some unpleasant party trick to get rid of the Warmaster and/or the Saint.

 

But the other part is for Gaur to simultaneously take advantage of the weakened and less competent Imperial force against him to wipe them out at a stroke and basically take out a good half of the body of the Crusade while Sek removes the head.

 

Obviously given this arc is called "the Victory" they won't pull it off completely, but I imagine there'll be a boodbath and it'll be a near thing.

Ah but...

 

whose "victory" will it be. Nothing to say it is the Imperials!!!!!

[DukeLeto69]

 

It’s quite an old concept, and probably as old as long-term warfare. Alexander the Great, for instance, marched through most of Asia with an army that was probably almost matched in number by its retinue, which also included merchants, tradesmen, prostitutes, etc.

 

Certainly, and I'm sure that you could give me an entire list of examples up to and including including modern military spouses living abroad on bases. I'd prefer the regimental retinue if they were more in line with that though and only included spouses and children, and not whatever random cobbler or prostitute felt like hopping aboard a spaceship. I'm sure we could talk for hours about how professional we'd like the Imperial military to be, how difficult we'd like movement in the Imperium to be, and what Imperial ships should be like on a sliding scale from modern aircraft carriers to mega cities, but I'd rather not derail.

 

I'm not saying that there's no room for people in the Imperium to profiteer off of soldiers by building businesses around planet side Imperial bases, Daur's wife Elodie was introduced as one in Blood Pact. All I'm saying is that I think that characters, like say whatever Yoncy's babysitter's name is, would be better if they had some passing line telling us that this is so and so's wife instead of her just being there and sticking around.

 

When I say "an idea introduced in Rogue Trader," I'm referring to this line "Of real interest is the tradition of a form of caravan train that accompany the Imperial Guard regiments. Sons of Guardsmen are recruited into the Guard at a young age and train alongside their brethren. Again, not only a band of brothers, but a family unit almost." from this blog post referencing the 1989 Warhammer 40,000 Compendium of White Dwarf articles.

 

The thing is, that undermines so many memorable moments of this series, to say nothing of one of the fundamental underpinnings of the series: that the Ghosts have lost their planet and their people.

 

Only insofar as First and Only and Ghostmaker, and I'd argue that giving the ghosts a family in the camp followers undermines that anyway. I know I already used the example in my last post, but it sticks out in my mind far more than any of the instances of Rawne holding a knife to Gaunt's throat, Gaunt has a talk with Caffran and scolds him saying that Caffran abandoned his new wife when he joined the Guard. That's harsh, that's cruel, that stings, and at the time when we didn't know any better it was probably true. A dozen-ish books later and Ban Daur is getting married to a woman he met on a military base during R&R in front of the ghosts new adoptive family before raiding Salvation's Reach. I'm not criticizing Abnett for changing his mind over the course of a decade, I'm saying that if he had the opportunity to do it again, it's something I think he should have done from the beginning. Even then, following what I'd like it would only be wives and children, the ghosts would still have lost relatives and loved ones as well as their home world. If it were Tanith refugees in general, you'd have the opportunity to have an influx of soldiers who never wanted to be soldiers and their children to follow them even if that is a retroactive retread of the initial Vervenhive intake.

 

It’s funny, I’ve been re-reading the series, and when I got to the part of The Guns of Tanith where Gol Korea is spying on Yoncy from a prostitute’s tent, I thought the same thing. What do you mean by “hasn’t been widely adopted yet,” though?

 

Maybe I haven't been reading the right Imperial Guard books, but I can't recall any other instance in the last decade that includes a regimental camp following.

 

I'm not sure where to fit this above, but there's also a point to be made that every time the Ghosts get reinforced, the reinforcements should have come with their own camp followers to intermingle with the existing camp. I know they're books about the guard and the camp followers are only tangentially related, but I think that that would be a slice of life story worth reading and more interesting than most of Abnett's side plots even if it's just vapid conversation. I think the closest we got was Elodie learning how to be an officer's wife. So, I guess I'm saying that Elodie learning how to collect her husband's dry cleaning and associated gossip was more interesting than Jakub Wilder's stupid band regiment or Gaunt's son or any number of times Abnett decided to put his characters on trial.

 

Edited out fairly major spoiler

I confess that I have not read every word of your post above and digested so I may be missing your point but...

 

Just because other BL authors have chosen to not explore camp retinue/followers doesn't mean Abnett is wrong! Abnett is somewhat copying the concept of Napoleonic War regiments (like in the Sharpe books) and they had these followers. Personally I think it is a great concept.

 

Also...

 

As the years have passed so the retinue would have grown and been accumulated from each world that is visited. There were none from Tanith because it got zapped and only the regiment got off the ground. Over the years women then children and other hangers on have, as the name implies, started hanging on to the regiment for their own existence.

 

For that reason as this retinue grows so do the opportunities for stories to explore within these characters.

 

AND remember that certainly since Verghast there has been a retinue (yoncy and Dalin being the examples of this).

 

Also worth pointing out that with the GG series being so long running and Abnett being who he is and the sales he has achieved means he has permission to do more of his own thing compared to other writers who tackle Imperial Guard. A one off novel from a less "successful" writer will be more "on brief" for WARhammer 40k.

 

Final point - GG series is also to some extent has evolved into a soap opera/family drama against a war backdrop.

[Donkey Kong]

Leto, I don't disagree with anything you've said.

 

No, Abnett isn't wrong. It's Warhammer 40,000, nothing is wrong. But, that doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about it either. I mean exactly what I said, the camp retinue/ follower/ caravan to my knowledge hasn't bee widely adopted (yet), and Abnett has done more than his fair share of that in his career writing for Black Library. Referring to the radio as a "vox/ vox caster"? Abnett. Data Slates? Abnett (even if the concept of tablet computers goes back to the 50s). Referring to lamps or lights in general as "glow globes" Abnett(-ish, I think it was lifted from Herbert's Dune (1965), Watson uses it in Space Marine (1993), and Abnett in Eisenhorn (2001)). The Old English Space Wolves language/ dialect? Abnett.

 

But, for every one of Abnett's concepts that have stuck around and permeated their way across the universe, there are easily dozens that haven't. Colonel-Commissar. Feth. .30 cal machine guns. Guardsmen getting issued the wrong ammunition (or, in this case, batteries). RIP Retraining, Indoctrination, Punishment. Marching band guardsmen. Referring to guardsmen as lasmen. Military court hearings/ commissar advocates. Stalk tanks. Sanctioned psyker chain gang. The destrier. Aviation guard regiment. Loxatl. Whatever the grave chute jetpack thing in The Guns of Tanith is. Ezrah's dialect of High Gothic. And, for the time being, camp followers. That isn't to say that I don't want Black Library authors experimenting, I do. That isn't to say I think all of the ideas on this list are bad, I don't.

 

Camp followers are an excellent concept in a vacuum. There's historical precedent and there's modern precedent, it's an idea that existed in the earliest versions of Warhammer 40,000, and it makes sense. I think it provides ample opportunity for, as you described, a soap opera/ family drama. But, I think Abnett has executed it poorly. There are no Tanith retinue because at time of writing First and Only Abnett probably wasn't thinking three, four, or five books ahead. I'd say it's the same reason we don't have women from Tanith in the regiment, because Abnett wasn't thinking about it at the time. It doesn't make the old books wrong, and it doesn't make the new books right, all it means is that Abnett came up with new ideas, and gave them a shot for better or worse.

 

My problem isn't that there are hangers on. My problem is why the hangers are hanging. I wish Abnett had written about more soldiers' families, more kids Dalin's age making their way into the regiment over the course of a decade or more children Yoncy's age for her to play with. I've always found Abnett's side plots weak, I think he could have benefitted from writing about more retinue characters doing retinue things, or pushing the boundaries on what retinue constitutes, since cobbler, dry cleaner, and prostitute are boring. Is Dorden retinue? Lesp? Curth? Zweil? Maddalena? What's their place is the hierarchy? Why aren't the reinforcement intakes coming along with their own retinues of doctors and priests and spouses and children? It may be, as you say, WARhammer, but I think that people appreciate the slice of life scenes, and sometimes more than another minor and inconsequential shootout. I know I do.

[DukeLeto69]

KHK... I think we are in agreement for the most part. I too want more "domestic 40k" and that is one of the reasons I love the Inquisitor books so much. I actually think this is one of Abnett's strengths as an author because he gives this broader colour/flavour to his stories and doesn't only focus on the WAR elements. I wish other authors did that more.