Guard in the evolving meta

[Withershadow]

Since we're being super technical with the rules, you need a detachment from the Imperial guard codex to get access to those stratagems (just having keywords is not enough, you must have a detachment from the parent codex).  I personally like to take a detachment of Psykers/priests/other stuff that doesn't break doctrine rules, which allows me to bring Catachan double flamer chimeras for my Krieg Engineers, etc.

[depthcharge12]

Since we're being super technical with the rules, you need a detachment from the Imperial guard codex to get access to those stratagems (just having keywords is not enough, you must have a detachment from the parent codex). I personally like to take a detachment of Psykers/priests/other stuff that doesn't break doctrine rules, which allows me to bring Catachan double flamer chimeras for my Krieg Engineers, etc.

Nothing against you, because withershadow is bae, but that sounds a bit too pedantic. I’m not sure anyone would argue that but it is a fair point nonetheless.

[Withershadow]

I mean, the stratagem thing is rules as written both in the codices, and in the FAQ answer that elaborates on keywords qualifying for stratagems.  Death Guard cannot use Chaos stratagems unless they also bring a Chaos detachment, as explicitly stated by GW.  I don't think it's that much of a stretch.

[Tirak]

Are you trying to say a pedantic reading of the rules says DKoK doesn't get Strategems? 'cause that's wrong mate. They are an Astra Militarum detachment, Death Korps of Krieg replaces the Regiment keyword, not Astra Militarum.

 

To quote from Page 132 of the Codex:

 

In this section you will find rules for Battle-forged armies that include Astra Militarum Detachments -- that is, any Detachment which includes only Astra Militarum Units. These rules include the abilities below and a series of Stratagems that can only be used by the Astra Militarum. This section also contains the unique Warlord Traits, Relics and Tactical Objectives of the Imperial Guard. Together, these rules reflect the character and fighting style of the many varied regiments of the Astra Militarum in your games of Warhammer 40,000.

 

 

As the very first sentance clearly states;

 

In this section you will find rules for Battle-forged armies that include Astra Militarum Detachments -- that is, any Detachment which includes only Astra Militarum Units.

 

 

DKoK are all Astra Militarum units and thus the Codex stratagems apply to them.

[Withershadow]

Of course they can use stratagems, I’m just extrapolating the Death Guard/Alpha Legion cultists ruling that clarifies you need an appropriate detachment to use the stratagems. So in the context of this conversation, if you are shoving random Imperial stuff into your Krieg detachment to get the brigade bonus (like the Landspeeders suggested, for example), while you do not lose Cult of Sacrifice as it not a doctrine, you need a separate detachment of Astra Militarum only to get the stratagems, even though all the units in your army that have the appropriate keywords would be able to use them.

[NatBrannigan]

To be fair the Landspeeders are just my crazy idea. I wanted to make a Land Speeder Storm for Inquisitorial Acolytes but that's not allowed so would love to see some Storm conversions about the place. Pretty useless in game but a hell of a model :)

 

I don't think anyone's suggesting you can have an mixed Imperial detachment of Random stuff AND use the Guard strategems. Clearly that's not on.

[depthcharge12]

So I’m confused, can I still use IG strategems and relics (universal) even though my force is exclusively Krieg? Or is that not allowed because of a technicality that I don’t contain a unit from the AM book?

[Withershadow]

So I’m confused, can I still use IG strategems and relics (universal) even though my force is exclusively Krieg? Or is that not allowed because of a technicality that I don’t contain a unit from the AM book?

From the Imperial Guard codex:

 

"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any ASTRA MILITARUM Detachments (excluding Auxiliary detachments), you have access to the Stratagems shown below."

 

A detachment of exclusively Krieg is an IMPERIAL, ASTRA MILITARUM, DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG detachment, therefore would qualify for the stratagems.

 

It seems my pedantry only served to obfuscate! Sorry about that!

Edited January 18, 2018 by Withershadow

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

 

So I’m confused, can I still use IG strategems and relics (universal) even though my force is exclusively Krieg? Or is that not allowed because of a technicality that I don’t contain a unit from the AM book?

From the Imperial Guard codex:

 

"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any ASTRA MILITARUM Detachments (excluding Auxiliary detachments), you have access to the Stratagems shown below."

 

A detachment of exclusively Krieg is an IMPERIAL, ASTRA MILITARUM, DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG detachment, therefore would qualify for the stratagems.

 

It seems my pedantry only served to obfuscate! Sorry about that!

Thanks, my little brain hasn’t been working quite the same since classes and my job started up :D

 

I’m wondering if I should take some bunkers for my heavy weapon squads now...any experience? I’m trying to get over my phobia of “units” that don’t really shoot or contribute to combat but are still effective...intangibles shall we say.

[Colonel Cross]

Haha great emperor, the boys at DakkaDakka are at it again! Listing the humble Guardsman as one of the most "OP/Broken/Busted" units in the game right now ... along with Manticores, Baneblade chassis (specifically Shadowsword), and of course, Scions.  Only reason I'm concerned is that many things were already overnerfed and several things were nerfed questionably all due to public outcry ... 

 

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/748749.page

[depthcharge12]

If guardsmen and t3 2wound mortars that fire S4 shots are a power gamey thing...I can’t even. I bet a bunch of these people bring super heavy duty buster units like Hell blasters and lasback spam and then don’t know how to deal with lots of chaff models. I will concede they are harder to kill this edition, but last edition they did have paper armor and anything could kill them with a stiff breeze. They are still pretty easy to kill if you make a balanced list.

 

Honestly, I feel indirect fire should get a buff to ignore the -1 to hit units because it’s pretty much just hosing an area with explosives. Though to balance, they should get a -1 when they’re out of LoS. It begs the question though if that should even matter since they all fire at BS4+ anyway.

 

 

The Baneblade family on the other hand (looking especially at you Shadowsword) are extremely underpriced for what they bring to the table. I think they should get bumped in points, Dark reapers should get bumped in points, and Mortarion/Magnus deep Strike should not be a thing...at least not for 2 CPs. Honestly, we should limit strategems as well (which hurts me on the inside) or at least change the interceptor one. I would suggest either limiting it to 2 strategems per player turn, or making repeated strategems in the same turn cost more (1st time is 1 CP, second time is 3 CPs), or make that interceptor strategem limited to units that arrive within 12” (-1 doesn’t affect the reapers).

 

Edit: I can see the point per wound structure with guardsmen v marines, and honestly you could put an extra point on them and Krieg to stifle the whining and it wouldn’t be that bad. Doubling their points cost per model, on the other hand, is a bit redonculous. I think the root of the issue is that marine units tend to be a bit overcosted to begin with, and they don’t mow down Infantry like they used to either.

Edited January 19, 2018 by depthcharge12

[Feral_80]

Ah great, another retard-crusade on Dakka.

 

The mere existence of -1 hit modifiers makes half the units on that list mostly useless in a competitive environment. As pretty much 50-60% of the AM codex at the moment (and 80% of the FW Index).

 

Yep, here we go again.

[Shamansky]

They had whined out a tau drones idiocy, where a thing sized like a Warhound can drop wounds and mortal wound onto nearby drones that can just roll FNP and survive a macrocanon direct hit. They whined about 1 model lost to morale in Guard. But now, when pointy-eared GW lap-dogs got the same stuff, i don't hear any complains. Now i feel that when GW did not listen to community that was not always a bad thing

[NatBrannigan]

I don't get it!

 

I used my Marines against my own Guard the other day (a friend fancied a change) and if you take some Anti-infantry weapons it's very easy to kill Infantry... Imagine that.

 

My Tactical squads have Heavy Bolters and I have a Devestator squad with same (only 3 Heavy Bolters at the moment due to model shortage) but they ripped through Guard Infantry squads with ease. How are people finding it hard to deal with them!? I didn't fire my Lascannon devestators at them. Maybe if you take a better mix of weapons you'll have less issues?

 

In my last game against Tyranids it was a bloodbath (on both sides) with 'gaunts and Guardsman killing each other in droves. I just don't get it!

 

Or rather I do get it but don't understand how you manage to get your head that far up your own backside. It's no good taking only meltaguns and then moaning that tanks are to easy to kill and infantry to hard is it. Morons.....

[lash144]

I wouldn't call the Infantry Squad overpowered per se. It is good sure, 40 points for 10 bodies is a pretty good deal for a screen.

What really makes them good is that for 180 points you can include a Guard Batallion which nets you +3CP and the possibility for 5+/5+ CP regain.

[Shamansky]

I don't get it!

 

I used my Marines against my own Guard the other day (a friend fancied a change) and if you take some Anti-infantry weapons it's very easy to kill Infantry... Imagine that.

 

My Tactical squads have Heavy Bolters and I have a Devestator squad with same (only 3 Heavy Bolters at the moment due to model shortage) but they ripped through Guard Infantry squads with ease. How are people finding it hard to deal with them!? I didn't fire my Lascannon devestators at them. Maybe if you take a better mix of weapons you'll have less issues?

 

In my last game against Tyranids it was a bloodbath (on both sides) with 'gaunts and Guardsman killing each other in droves. I just don't get it!

 

Or rather I do get it but don't understand how you manage to get your head that far up your own backside. It's no good taking only meltaguns and then moaning that tanks are to easy to kill and infantry to hard is it. Morons.....

Whining is much easier than thinking. And now whining became a thing that matters.

[NatBrannigan]

Should... should we try whining?

 

The closest we came was that well thought out document of issues Feral sent over to the GW rules department, and we suggested possible points increases in it! Clearly we're not doing this right...

 

Of course it seems like the good folk at Dakka Dakka would most enjoy a game consisting of two lines of Marines, all armed with Plasma Guns facing each other over an empty table. After all Terrain is clearly OP...

[Scurrae]

Hi, I could be wrong, but I think that point for point : Ogryns > Bullgryns & Valkyrie > Chimera.

So in my opinion, you better have to bring one or two Valkyries with Ogryns than one or two Chimera with Bullgryns (almost same price), an officer of the fleet in that det could be a good solution against FLYER, and non of these units relie on a REGIMENT doctrine, so feel free to bring some assassins with them, astropath is also a cool little tool.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Scurrae

[duz_]

Should... should we try whining?

 

 

Id like to think the members of B&C, particularly the officers of the IG forum are above whinging! Well thought out and presented feedback to GW I'm sure would go much further.

 

Hi, I could be wrong, but I think that point for point : Ogryns > Bullgryns & Valkyrie > Chimera.

 

I haven't had a chance to run my recently paint Ogyrns yet so can't compare them directly against each other. That does seem like a bold statement though, I'm curious to hear your reasoning behind it.

 

As for valks and chimeras I certainly agree. They are more expensive but with their weapon load out, durability, movement, grav chute insertion and flying gunship rule its definitely worth the extra points over a chimera if you can spare them.

2 sets of bullgryns/ogyrns in transports is certainly an investment! Why 2?

[NatBrannigan]

I've only run Bullgryns (aesthetically more pleasing to me) but can't see how Ogryns would be better I'm afraid. They're a classic so happy to be proven wrong, it would be great if they were around the same level. The Bullgryn shields and mauls make them wrecking machines, where the Ogryns don't seem to have the same survivability or punch.

 

Can't argue with the transport point. If you've got the points to spare it's worth upgrading to the Valk. Just so many toys to choose from it's hard to find those spare points :)

 

As for whining I agree, hardly proper conduct for a Guard officer. What next, Company Commanders leaving the battlefield because they lost an arm? That's why the Emperor gave you two!

[depthcharge12]

Well do you guys think we should post it to a more communal area like the amicus to see non Guard opinions? Honestly, I have yet to see anyone struggle with killing guardsmen.

[Henimann]

Well do you guys think we should post it to a more communal area like the amicus to see non Guard opinions? Honestly, I have yet to see anyone struggle with killing guardsmen.

It's not a bad idea.  While I am really glad that everyone on here is pretty level headed and fair when it comes to Guard, we are looking at the army in a vacuum (that is, as the players of it).  Some MEQ player opinions would probably help, considering the majority of 40k players play MEQ.  

 

And I do not understand why people complain about Guard as if we are the new uber-army.  I played my first few full games of 8th with a stand-in Guard army last week.  Guy I played my second game against spent the entire game complaining about how OP Guard was, even though he essentially had tabled me by turn 3.  Maybe I didn't take enough Manticores....

 

But it all honesty, this seems to come down to people over-optimizing their army.  If your list is balanced, and not built to take out only LoWs and Super Heavies, you'll be able to take on a Guard army.  

Edited January 19, 2018 by Henimann

[Chris521]

As far as the guardsman vs tac marines debate goes, our infantry are certainly very good, but I wouldn't give them any direct nerfs.  I would rather they give a bit of a boost to the marines.  Knocking a point off every marine and giving bolters AP-1 would go a really long way to evening them out.  The bolter change would also have to filter up through the heavier options. ( maybe bolt rifles get either AP-2 or S5, while heavy bolters go up to AP-2)

 

As for the easy battalions guard have, I see two interesting ways to tackle that problem. 

 

The first would be to bring back platoons.  We had a thread a while back talking about thing that would be done for that.  The platoon would be our troops choice.  Unfortunately, I have little faith in the rules writers ability to implement such a system correctly. (Also, the battalion detachments should really be called a company).

 

A much simpler solution would be to add a few more detachments to help more elite armies get more CP.  First I would make the Vanguard, Spearhead, and outrider detachments worth 2 CP, then I could see 3 more types which are basically brigade like variants of those which could be worth 6 CP. 

 

So for example a heavy support "Brigade" for 6 CP would need:

3 HQ

(2-3) elite

3 Troop

(2-3) FA

6 Heavy

 

I put lower elite and FA requirement to separate in from the brigade a bit.

 

I think a system like this would do very little for the guard since we already have no problem filling out the current detachments.  But it would give more cp to other armies.

 

As for Dakka, we had a good run there without a guard whine thread, but as soon as I saw that thread get posted, I knew the streak would be broken and the usually crowd didn't disappoint.  Last I checked, that thread was being kept alive by a Blood angels player who was my main reason to make an account (for the ignore function, at this point I think his only purpose in life is to whine on dakka) and a guy that tried to argue that space marine have always been one of the worst armies.  I only have a handful of people on my ignore list, but that thread is already much shorter.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Chris521

[duz_]

Its great to see hordes on the table again. I would be extremely reluctant to see a large number of base weapons in the game getting AP bonuses again.

That is what killed infantry in previous editions. Most of the fluff is hordes vs hordes, not elite horde units vs elite horde units.

[Withershadow]

Hi, I could be wrong, but I think that point for point : Ogryns > Bullgryns & Valkyrie > Chimera.

This makes no sense on so many levels... Ogryns better than anything? Comparing a transport to a melee bulwark unit?  I'm confused.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Withershadow