Guard in the evolving meta

[duz_]

I wonder if any officers here who have been following the LVO closely would want to start another thread with a bit of a summary of how the guard went at the LVO.

 

Particularly in light of the various threads about being IG being OP. With multiple changes to our book and ~1/2 the dexes out it would be a very good sample to analyze.

 

 

Id be curious to see what % of players took them, how many were pure vs soup and how well they placed.

 

Id also be curious to see the difference between the champs and the friendly they had.

[Bonzi]

I've played against the new custodes who had the -1 banner. It's not the end of the world, custodes are a small army and they have to spread out to cap objectives. Shoot other parts of the army and GASP move away from units protected by the bubble. If you pop their transports custodes are slower than Guard with their orders. Also, Guard are loaded with chaff units to speed bump elite units. Have guard players forgotten that they are a quantity over quality army? Boohoo if you're shooting some units at neg one...you've got more heavy weapons than the custodes player has models on the table.

 

If you want to truly wreck custodes though... astropaths and Primaris psykers. Custodes have pitiful psyker defenses and mortal wound don't care how tough you are or what save you're packing.

 

By themselves Custodes are tough but very limited. There are problems the have no solution for. Look for them to be at their most terrifying in Imperial Soup lists.

[NatBrannigan]

Depthcharge beat me too it here so I'll just second his facetious 160 Guardsman all with FRFSRF to kill some Custodies. And that's just half the army. And we get at least 30 Command points to use! AAAH!

 

At least the internet rage has been directed elsewhere, too late for Commissars though :(

 

I'm really looking forward to Custodes. I can already imagine my Guardsman firing their disciplined volleys into a 3 man squad, laughing at the Golden prats hubris, before realising they've only done one wound and are about to be butchered... That's what Guard are all about :) I'm sure my Leman Russ tanks will be useful against them (Executioner Plasma?) unless I once again let them get charged or consolidated into. You'd think I'd learn eventually!

[depthcharge12]

Honestly I’m wondering if taking Bikestodes would be good for us. For the same points as a Hydra, they are better at AA while still fulfilling an anti tank role with their other missiles, and can assault both ground and air targets.

 

It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth for using soup armies with no real lore behind them, but would be perfectly acceptable in a competitive scene.

[Colonel Cross]

Plus, those bikes look so freaking cool. I can't remember the last time I saw a model so cool I had to have it. Celestine, actually.

[NatBrannigan]

They do look painfully cool...

 

I'm pretty set on doing a Tzeentch / Thousand sons force next (don't tell the Commissar!) but they're awful tempting!

 

Just an FYI the thread in Amicus has now moved on to moaning about Eldar so we're all good again. Huzzah!

[esca]

I am using a Trojan with its Guard support squad and a Salamander command tank both augmenting a laser tank destroyer.

A Separate L Russ command tank with classic load out. Includes both the trait and gear to claim command points back.

 

A squadron of Russ : 

3 heavy bolters and battle cannon.

3 heavy bolters and punisher 

2 heavy plasma , 1 Las cannon and a twin Las cannon.

 

3 Cyclops 

 

10 Rough riders.

 

1500 points.

 

 

Plan is to keep the Rough Riders and the squadron in reserve.

Command tank pushes forwards on a flank to link up with all the reserves.

The laser destroyer hits on 3+ regardless of any movement and it re rolls all missed shots because it is supported by a Trojan and a Salamander.

Rough riders enter battle behind a screen of 3 Leman Russ.

All Russ are ob-sec . The Trojan tank is a troop choice.

 

In a 2000 point battle I have an additional 10 rough riders in the same detachment so that they also outflank.

 

Second detachment are cadian Veterans and Scion led by my female company commander in a 17th century red coat brandishing the heirloom sword of power. 1 forgeworld chimera with auto cannon, bolter and stubber.

 

Supreme command is Greyfax , Eversor, bog standard company commanders.

 

 

Cadian and Scion hold objectives with greyfax.

 

Tallarn tanks to use all available firepower in the first turn. Thereafter they switch to a very mobile hit and run style while taking objectives as they present

[Withershadow]

They do look painfully cool...

 

I'm pretty set on doing a Tzeentch / Thousand sons force next (don't tell the Commissar!) but they're awful tempting!

 

Just an FYI the thread in Amicus has now moved on to moaning about Eldar so we're all good again. Huzzah!

Lol, yes. LVO has shifted all the hatred towards Eldar, where it always belonged. I am sure they will get wrecked in 2 months time when GW drops the rebalance.

[Frater Cornelius]

Alright folks, I tossed my Stormies in the general direction of some Custodes today. I will be posting a detailed batrep in my hobby thread. To give you a quick rundown though: ignore ‘em and don’t be greedy. I got greedy and paid for it. If those guys can make the charge, you’re screwed. If you think one unit of yours can kill one unit of theirs, you’re screwed. I mean, when it takes Nork, a Lord Commissar, 3 Bullgryns and freaking Celestine to drop three models in melee, you know you need to plan carefully. I took the game with a final score of 14:10 (Scorged Earth from the CA book) due to me having more units and thus I was capable of holding objectives as well as punching him. This is something the golden bananas can’t do. Also, these guys are useless at range, especially once you have taken out their mobile elements. Force them to choose between camping on an objective or killing your dudes. When faced with that choice, there won’t be a right decision for him.

Anyway, I will try to get the batrep up and running by tomorrow, but I am not sure if I have the time with having my birthday and all that jazz. Still, I’ll do my best

 

Edit: Here's the batrep *coughshamelessplugcough* :D

Edited January 31, 2018 by Frater Cornelius

[NatBrannigan]

I don't see them doing any better than Grey Knights when multiple objectives are involved. There simply aren't enough units for them to go after several different board locations. Let them get hold of the relic or something and you're doomed though... Hard to kill and hit like several tonnes of bricks.

[WarriorFish]

Guard have always fared better against more elite armies; each lasgun that gets a 1 on a save makes a big difference for example. An even more elite army (I'm losing track at this stage) should get ground down in a battle of attrition - both units and objectives.

[Feral_80]

That's true about super-elite armies, their tactical weakness is something we can capitalize on.

 

However, I wonder how many full-Custodes armies we will see. My projection: very few, or almost none. With the current (concerning) tendency towards imperial soups as the only competitive imperial build, I can see Custodes being incorporated into other kinds of imperium armies that make up for their weaknesses. As a shock (trample) unit they seem very effective. Especially in one of the two versions that seem to attract most interest: deepstriking infantry with -1 hit banner, or a couple/trio of Shield Captains on bikes as standalone one-man-armies. 

 

If you haven't already, have a look at the outrageous amount of pain and punishment that three such guys inflict/absorb in Tabletop Tactics' latest match. Ouch. Even taking down one of those seems problematic, I don't even want to think about facing three, for less than 500 pts.

 

One more step towards diluted imperial soup madness *sigh*.

[Frater Cornelius]

I do not see regular Custodian Guard making it in. Alarus TDA are great because they are tough, very shooty and can target characters. Shield Captain is a good pick as well. I have yet to see Jetbikes in action. Beyond that, a Vexilla may be used.

 

By the way, CP are a huge problem with Custodes. Below 2000 you will be happy if you have 4 to play with. Bleed them dry. It'll make you breathe a little easier, knowing they can't re-roll their bloody saves ;)

[WarriorFish]

Agreed, they're surely going to be mostly hitting the table as part of a wider Imperium army. They'll certainly make for capable units for other armies to take advantage of.

[Colonel Cross]

I played a pretty crazy Maelstrom game against my best friend's Primaris list the other day. I forget what the mission was, but your 3 cards were discarded after your turn was over, it was fun but also kind of annoying haha.

 

He had:

Chapter Master with relic gravis armor

2x Lieutenants

1x Ancient

1x Apothecary

1x5 Hell blasters

2x5 Intercessors

1x3 Inceptors

1x5 Reavers

1x5 scout squad w/Bolters & heavy bolter

1x7 scout squad w/sniper rifles

2x Stormtalon Gunships with assault cannons and lascannons

1x Repulsor

 

I had:

2 Catachan BNs and 1 Scion BN (I used a TAC list I've been working on)

Straken

2 Commanders: 1 w/Tuskblade & plasma pistol and the warlord had a boltgun w/Grand Strategist

1x Executioner TC w/Lascannon & plasma sponsons

1x Techpriest

1x Priest

1x Command Squad w/Lascannon, medic, & banner

1x4 Bullgryn in a Valk

6x Infantry Squads with a mix of plasma, melta, and power swords on SGTS (2 squads with meltas & power swords were in Chimeras)

2x Battle Tanks w/Lascannon

1x Tempesor w/rod

1x Primaris Psyker

2x5 plasma Scions

1x5 Scions w/2 Hotshot Volley Guns

 

He got first turn and rapidly deployed his hellblaster blob from within the Repulsor. His entire army was in cover on 4 of the 6 OBJs

Edited February 6, 2018 by Colonel Cross

[BurntheHeretic]

 

I'm not a fan of the Executioner Cannon, honestly. That 36" range was quite the detriment. I'm also not a fan of eating mortal wounds. Maybe it's ok on Cadian tanks, but I'll stick to the trusty battle Cannon for my Catachans. I'm in the process of converting up my own Conqueror and I look forward to trying that out on a regular tank.

 

 

Great report! On paper, the Executioner with Plasma Sponsons should work great on a (Catachan) Tank Commander. The commander did not order himself to reroll those 1's that lead to mortal wounds?

 

The conqueror should work great by the way.. how are you planning on doing the conversion? 

[Colonel Cross]

Oh he had tons of S8 AP3 D2 shots, that's for sure. BUT if you move then those side sponson plasmas generate mortal wounds on 1s and 2s. And I often use Strike & Shroud on turn 1, so no rerolling 1s there.

 

I'm looking at using the Nova Cannon and removing the hydraulic pistons and green stuffing a storm bolter on the side. It appears to be tricky. Failing that, I may just stick a heavy stubber barrel to the side of the Cannon? We'll see how it goes.

[AstraWlad]

BUT if you move then those side sponson plasmas generate mortal wounds on 1s and 2s. And I often use Strike & Shroud on turn 1, so no rerolling 1s there.

 

But nobody forces you to overheat them: just shoot in normal mode if you do not have re-rolls.

 

 

I have yet to see Jetbikes in action.

 

They are incredible. If you can move them into position (that is not so difficult with 14-inch movement and FLY) they can destroy EVERYTHING. At first they unleash a crazy amount of bolter fire (in rapid fire range it will be 12 shots from each bike hitting on 2+ with re-rolls from shield-captain) and then charge for 4 S6 AP-3 D3-damage attacks with re-rolls for to-wound and another S5 AP-2 attack for Misericordia. Everyone you point them at just melts away. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by AstraWlad

[Mileposter]

I have not yet seen a model - Imperium or Xenos alike - that is described as "On a jetbike" and have it not be awesome.

[Colonel Cross]

Over at Dakkadakka the complaints of guard continue! Now there is rumor of guardsmen going up to 5ppm. My TAC list from pre chapter approved is now 205 points higher. With this price bump it'll be 265! Ouch. Daddy make it stop!

[Feral_80]

Well that does not surprise me: the average user on Dakkadakka has obviously never played a game. The rumor might even be true, considering the kind of 'balancing' decision taken lately.

[Withershadow]

I doubt Guard will get more hits considering their relatively paltry contribution in LVO... I guess except as CP batteries?

[Feral_80]

Who knows, I learned to never expect the most rational change in this game :D

 

We still have infantry squads, Bullgryns, Hellhounds, and Scions that (barely) keep us in the game, so those surely deserve a nerf.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Feral_80

[Kontakt]

   Most of the top "marine" lists at the LVO seemed to include a large number of guardsman squads with a heavy weapon. Guard will be nerfed again until GW stops hearing about them. They have shown their willingness to nerf an army multiple times without any additional feedback (Nerf lag is what I call it). 5pt guardsmen aren't the end of the world, but the cost effectiveness of similar troops (genestealers have cheap guardsmen equivelants) will then be so much better.

   ***Redacted***

Edited February 7, 2018 by Kontakt

[Tirak]

When does it become the end of the world? It's getting harder and harder to make decent lists with all the nerfs. We're getting squeezed out of the game for Imperial Soup. I'm a Guard player, I've no desire to start including those overrated prettyboys in power armor, but GW seems hell bent on making our army non viable if there is any truth at all to those rumors.