Guard in the evolving meta

[our_baz]

Just want to see your initial reactions, two members in the amicus side said that orders should just be completely removed and can only be used by spending command points.

 

Discuss.

IMHO, a rather hyperbolic overreaction. Orders are the IG way of getting access to some of the aura buffs SM (and other races) can dish out via Captains, Lt's, Chaplains etc. We can currently (Laurels of command withstanding)  give out 1 order/ Squad, the gripe is this isn't fair the IG should pay an additional CP tax as well, when other factions can stack buffs (how many times have you come a cross a SM player buffing various squad with a Cpt and Lt for loads of re-rolls). I muse how much of this is sour grapes? 

The comments that FRFSRF is OP I find a little curious. I really dont see how it is OP, the "average" Guard Inf squad (assuming 8 Lasguns, Sgt has pistol and Special Weapon and you are working in the vacuum of Mathhammer), will churn out 16 shots, of which 8 will hit, only ~3 will wound and force ~1 unsaved wound vs. S4 3+ SM, at double tap range this gets doubled. Unless I'm missing something I don't see how this is OP. 

 

That Amicus thread has taken off big time.

You could say that.

[depthcharge12]

That was my line of thinking as well - more or less it also removes a tactical element that makes the game fun. When Tau lost the ability to jump shoot jump, I was quite mad because it stripped a layer of nuance that made playing Tau fun and challenging.

 

If it really is as big of an issue as the vocal minority says it is, then I feel the fair thing to do would be only one of each order per turn per officer. However, this would be sort of goofy because you would be telling one unit to dig in, another to line up and shoot, and another to start running towards the enemy :P

 

I understand snipers are not too popular in the game, though I’ve seen them actually be of use. They would be super helpful in this case of removing order giving officers that double the shooting output of your army. Expensive? Sure, but most SM players are already taking scouts for their ability to sit on objectives, so why not give them some teeth?

[our_baz]

I understand snipers are not too popular in the game, though I’ve seen them actually be of use. They would be super helpful in this case of removing order giving officers that double the shooting output of your army. Expensive? Sure, but most SM players are already taking scouts for their ability to sit on objectives, so why not give them some teeth?

A lot of the gripes might/could(?) boil down to wrong tools for the job when playing guard, or poor decisions making (Yes I am generalising and I apologise). From my experience playing against SM, on two occasions my oppo has brought sniper scouts and rather than shoot at my officers/Commies (pre nerf) the oppo chose to shoot at my Bullgryns on both occasions . From my experience playing against Guard with my pre-codex BA I found them tough but beatable, I think its just bringing the right tools for the job as with most armies. 

[The Taffster]

 

I understand snipers are not too popular in the game, though I’ve seen them actually be of use. They would be super helpful in this case of removing order giving officers that double the shooting output of your army. Expensive? Sure, but most SM players are already taking scouts for their ability to sit on objectives, so why not give them some teeth?

A lot of the gripes might/could(?) boil down to wrong tools for the job when playing guard, or poor decisions making (Yes I am generalising and I apologise). From my experience playing against SM, on two occasions my oppo has brought sniper scouts and rather than shoot at my officers/Commies (pre nerf) the oppo chose to shoot at my Bullgryns on both occasions . From my experience playing against Guard with my pre-codex BA I found them tough but beatable, I think its just bringing the right tools for the job as with most armies.

 

This is definitely a big factor in how people see guard.

 

Majority of the games I've played my opponents didn't know how to effectively counter my army, which has led to things being quite one sided in some cases.

 

In regards to orders, yes they are powerful, but they're not OP. And as has been mentioned they just allow us access to the buffs other armies get from Auras.

 

With the new Codex' that are coming out I do find myself wondering how I'll even counter some of the insane stuff out there.. as more are released I think it's going to be harder and harder for Guard to remain top tier against competent players.

[FallenSoldiers]

I ran a solid 1500pt list against a friend playing CSM with Daemons. He destroyed me by virtue of his entire army being -1 to hit outside of 12” and a vast majority of it being -2. My entire army hit on 6s. Sure, I rerolled 1,2,3 for being Cadian with Orders, but still couldn’t rereoll 4s or 5s and needed to convert those to 6s.

 

I literally couldn’t move a lot of things for fear of just straight up not being able to hit after moving. Guard can be strong, absolutely, but they’re by no means this juggernaught that people seem to think.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

I understand snipers are not too popular in the game, though I’ve seen them actually be of use. They would be super helpful in this case of removing order giving officers that double the shooting output of your army. Expensive? Sure, but most SM players are already taking scouts for their ability to sit on objectives, so why not give them some teeth?

A lot of the gripes might/could(?) boil down to wrong tools for the job when playing guard, or poor decisions making (Yes I am generalising and I apologise). From my experience playing against SM, on two occasions my oppo has brought sniper scouts and rather than shoot at my officers/Commies (pre nerf) the oppo chose to shoot at my Bullgryns on both occasions . From my experience playing against Guard with my pre-codex BA I found them tough but beatable, I think its just bringing the right tools for the job as with most armies.

 

This is definitely a big factor in how people see guard.

 

Majority of the games I've played my opponents didn't know how to effectively counter my army, which has led to things being quite one sided in some cases.

 

In regards to orders, yes they are powerful, but they're not OP. And as has been mentioned they just allow us access to the buffs other armies get from Auras.

 

With the new Codex' that are coming out I do find myself wondering how I'll even counter some of the insane stuff out there.. as more are released I think it's going to be harder and harder for Guard to remain top tier against competent players.

 

 

 

That's the crux of the issue. People lose, and are unwilling to change their strategy to deal with issues that will frequently pop up in a tournament setting (this is assuming these players care about balance in the first place). I don't think anyone is in denial that certain units need a restructure, I think it is the degree to how that should be done. People who don't have a vested interest in playing with a guard army can effectively just nerf our units and be done with it and not have to deal with the consequences - however we cannot just have an echo chamber for all guard players to pitch in. 

 

As Fallen says above, there are some extremely hard counters like -1 to hit armies that hamstring the hell out of Guard, especially so for non reroll regiments. Should we scream bloody murder or try to figure out a good strategy or combination of units to deal with it? I think the reality of the situation is that you can't win them all and have to go for objectives instead. I think that is a huge mental block for newer players that just want to table their opponent. I've been guilty of it too.

[Mileposter]

 

 

 

I understand snipers are not too popular in the game, though I’ve seen them actually be of use. They would be super helpful in this case of removing order giving officers that double the shooting output of your army. Expensive? Sure, but most SM players are already taking scouts for their ability to sit on objectives, so why not give them some teeth?

A lot of the gripes might/could(?) boil down to wrong tools for the job when playing guard, or poor decisions making (Yes I am generalising and I apologise). From my experience playing against SM, on two occasions my oppo has brought sniper scouts and rather than shoot at my officers/Commies (pre nerf) the oppo chose to shoot at my Bullgryns on both occasions . From my experience playing against Guard with my pre-codex BA I found them tough but beatable, I think its just bringing the right tools for the job as with most armies.

 

This is definitely a big factor in how people see guard.

 

Majority of the games I've played my opponents didn't know how to effectively counter my army, which has led to things being quite one sided in some cases.

 

In regards to orders, yes they are powerful, but they're not OP. And as has been mentioned they just allow us access to the buffs other armies get from Auras.

 

With the new Codex' that are coming out I do find myself wondering how I'll even counter some of the insane stuff out there.. as more are released I think it's going to be harder and harder for Guard to remain top tier against competent players.

 

 

 

That's the crux of the issue. People lose, and are unwilling to change their strategy to deal with issues that will frequently pop up in a tournament setting (this is assuming these players care about balance in the first place). I don't think anyone is in denial that certain units need a restructure, I think it is the degree to how that should be done. People who don't have a vested interest in playing with a guard army can effectively just nerf our units and be done with it and not have to deal with the consequences - however we cannot just have an echo chamber for all guard players to pitch in. 

 

As Fallen says above, there are some extremely hard counters like -1 to hit armies that hamstring the hell out of Guard, especially so for non reroll regiments. Should we scream bloody murder or try to figure out a good strategy or combination of units to deal with it? I think the reality of the situation is that you can't win them all and have to go for objectives instead. I think that is a huge mental block for newer players that just want to table their opponent. I've been guilty of it too.

 

I think some of this mentality shift is evident inside the Guard playstyle jsut as much as without it - I mean, we now have a few Doctrines/supported styles with Guard that are focused on being a Mobile army... Something that not a lot of folk seem to have their heads wrapped around yet.

[librisrouge]

Or the idea that IG need to bring along some kind of melee element (baneblade, ogryn, death riders, lots of catachan, etc.) because those models want to be and are comfortable within 12". Gotta keep with the times.

[FallenSoldiers]

Or the idea that IG need to bring along some kind of melee element (baneblade, ogryn, death riders, lots of catachan, etc.) because those models want to be and are comfortable within 12". Gotta keep with the times.

This is exactly why I am “mixing up” my style constantly. I love having a gun and artillery line, but I know that it’s going to get shut down, hard, by some opponents. That’s why I’m trying to build more variety into my lists. I love building lists with the “take on all comers” mentality.

[The Taffster]

 

Or the idea that IG need to bring along some kind of melee element (baneblade, ogryn, death riders, lots of catachan, etc.) because those models want to be and are comfortable within 12". Gotta keep with the times.

This is exactly why I am “mixing up” my style constantly. I love having a gun and artillery line, but I know that it’s going to get shut down, hard, by some opponents. That’s why I’m trying to build more variety into my lists. I love building lists with the “take on all comers” mentality.

 

 

Same, I do enjoy a good gun line. But as you said there's some solid counters out there and Custodes will be one of them imo.. I've integrated t a close quarters Veteran Squad who have performed admirably so far, working on some Ogryns right now so may run them instead or in conjunction depending on points..

 

Sadly my Baneblades close combat capabilities were not tested in my previous game as it blew the land raider up before it had a chance to charge.. Next time...  

[Withershadow]

That Amicus thread has taken off big time.

 

Last point on Bullgryns, the 2+ save is amazing but if someone shoots high AP weaponry at them you can sprinkle some of the 4++ shields in there as well. It makes them so so much tougher than Ogryns against anything at all, even if you factor in the extra Ogryn you could get for the points.

 

Keep orders, they're one of the best things about Guard! I don't think some people are playing Guard right by the sounds of it. Lots of talk of "ignoring morale" and "three orders per turn from officers". Perhaps the issue is some of the more zealous Guard commanders being, shall we say, over optimistic with their interpretations of the rules or not using the latest rules?

This doesn't really work that well in practice, considering you need to keep allocating wounds to the same model until it dies.  I do like that shield on bodyguards with the mask, for a 2++ invulnerable. :D

[duz_]

Yeh if youre mixing 2+/4++ Bullgryns you want to be able to give them the +1 save power. I find the 2+ is more reliable in general.

[NatBrannigan]

It's a reason I'm loving the Bullgryns. Can't actually hit the enemy outside 12"? No worries!

 

If anything they've been my strongest unit and no-one is crying about them. But when someone is arguing that 160 Guardsmen within 12" all magically being issued FRFSRF somehow can put 17 wounds on a Terminator squad... Has anyone managed that yet? Spherical Guardsmen in a vacuum... He even talked about those same Guard being in cover! It beggars belief...

[duz_]

I wish my guardsmen were that effective! :lol:

 

Actually I dont, because people would complain about it and then... oh ... :ermm:

[NatBrannigan]

I wish Id never started the thread... It's so frustrating. What kind of games are these guys playing!?

 

Mindless and pointless comparisons... Apparently we also routinely get upwards of 22 CP's in a 2000 point game. This is news to me I must say.

[MrZakalwe]

Yeah it descended into a cycle of 'the tac marines I never use are worthless so all troops must be worthless'.

 

Much easier to shout 'OP' than to understand the systematic failures.

[our_baz]

I wish Id never started the thread... It's so frustrating. What kind of games are these guys playing!?

 

Mindless and pointless comparisons... Apparently we also routinely get upwards of 22 CP's in a 2000 point game. This is news to me I must say.

Apparently games were they all get kerb stomped by IG armies running 15+ Inf Squads all being issued FRFSRF every turn,  killing TEQ with impunity each shooting phase. Not to mention the 20+CP that are never used up.

They haven't gotten started on LRBT's or artillery yet, when that happens put on your tin helmets and flak jackets.

 

You started it with good intentions to have a reasoned adult discussion, if this up for a discussion over a pint or coffee I doubt the same death spiral would of occur...but you know its the internet!

[Schlitzaf]

You guys should look at Power Armor Troops suck Thread P1 and P2. Being spending most of this month trying to showcase its not the case. And frankly it’s quite infuriating sense like half the fixes the Marines player suggest for fixing Tacticals are demonstrably not the issue at hand period.

[micahwc]

@Nat,

 

The most CP I have ever started with was 17, and I spent 22 after getting a few back. This happened one time in  a friendly but competitive match. Generally I end up with around 8 to 14 depending on what I bring.

[librisrouge]

You guys should look at Power Armor Troops suck Thread P1 and P2. Being spending most of this month trying to showcase its not the case. And frankly it’s quite infuriating sense like half the fixes the Marines player suggest for fixing Tacticals are demonstrably not the issue at hand period.

I keep telling people that my biggest fear is a host of tactical marines but nobody believes me.

[depthcharge12]

I wish Id never started the thread... It's so frustrating. What kind of games are these guys playing!?

 

Mindless and pointless comparisons... Apparently we also routinely get upwards of 22 CP's in a 2000 point game. This is news to me I must say.

 

I'm partly to blame - I suggested and expected to have an adult conversation with meaningful dialogue and compromise...turns out my hubris was my downfall.

 

 

You guys should look at Power Armor Troops suck Thread P1 and P2. Being spending most of this month trying to showcase its not the case. And frankly it’s quite infuriating sense like half the fixes the Marines player suggest for fixing Tacticals are demonstrably not the issue at hand period.

I keep telling people that my biggest fear is a host of tactical marines but nobody believes me.

 

 

You mean...no...horde tactical marines?!?! You mean there will be 60 marines with 30 CPs at 1000 points that all get to reroll hits and wounds of 1's for being within 6" of their HQ choices?!?!

 

Game over man game over. We should make marine players spend CPs to take tactical squads :P

 

/s

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly guys glad you posted the thread, sense it’s refreshing to have someone else beside Idaho, Ishagu and I (and others) in various threads defending Tacticals and by extension the humble Gaurdsman. And don’t forget the “10 Man Tacticals suck I will never take them over Scouts ever,” or the ever present by extension return of 5 Man MSU Universally (my response remains want that Black Templars exist). And of course “Only Basic PA Troop is the Tacticals; Chaos Marines which are just in a bad spot as Tacticals don’t exist, and let’s just steal Crusaders and Grey Hunters gimmicks or by buffing Tacticals and forgetting what that do to other tactical equivalent Squads, oops I broke the game.”

 

Okay end rant. But seriously been nice to not be alone in those threads anymore

Edited January 25, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[depthcharge12]

Honestly guys glad you posted the thread, sense it’s refreshing to have someone else beside Idaho, Ishagu and I (and others) in various threads defending Tacticals and by extension the humble Gaurdsman. And don’t forget the “10 Man Tacticals suck I will never take them over Scouts ever,” or the ever present by extension return of 5 Man MSU Universally (my response remains want that Black Templars exist). And of course “Only Basic PA Troop is the Tacticals; Chaos Marines which are just in a bad spot as Tacticals don’t exist, and let’s just steal Crusaders and Grey Hunters gimmicks or by buffing Tacticals and forgetting what that do to other tactical equivalent Squads, oops I broke the game.”

 

Okay end rant. But seriously been nice to not be alone in those threads anymore

 

Blood Angels are great for running 5 man squads protecting backfield lasbacks with a heavy flamer and +1 to wound on the charge. Intercessors are pretty awesome for taking objectives, despite all the mathammering fools out there - small footprint (easy to hide), good output or good shooting, spongy and practically immune to morale, etc. Honestly, I wish that tacticals operated as well as intercessors do, they seem to be what tacticals should be in game. 

 

 

 

Also, something to brighten your day, a gentleman proposed that 10 DA terminators able to fire twice with 3CPs (80 storm bolter shots + 8 krak missiles) with belial to reroll 1's cost 640ish points, or 160 guardsmen. Those guardsmen magically also all receive FRSRF because we all know officers don't cost points, and all 160 guardsmen are within 12" of said terminators to fire 4 shots each.

 

:P

 

Are the people who post here rooted in reality or have played a game against guard? It's absolutely hilarious.  

[Schlitzaf]

Tbh Intercessors combine the best aspects of Crusaders and Hunters into a single squad. While not quite as good as either of those squads are definitely very close and almost functionally on par once you apply tactics and strategems.

 

Also I just j ignored the whole “my Deathwing are 650 Points I cannot kill 600+ Points of Gaurdsman oh no.”

Edited January 25, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Bonzi]

I play Blood Angels, Vostroyans, Necrons, and Emperors Children. The biggest thing linking all this together seems to boil down to people stuck in 7th Ed thinking. People want their army to play like it did in 7th. I see this in Cron players who refuse to take heavy Gauss for anti-tank or melee counter charge units, opting to play silver tide to kill tanks just like they did in 7th. I see guard players who want to sit in a gunline and refuse to advance against a -1 to hit opponent because 'that isn't what guard do'. I see BA players griping about how to kill bubble wrap units, but refusing to consider Tacticals, Bikers, or Tactical Terminators because those units don't have strategems to make them 'better'.

 

The most important and basic elements of gameplay seem the most frequently forgotten: #1 Deployment, #2 Target Priority, #3 Take all comers list building. I've seen obsession with internet meta stunt players critical thinking abilities and make them blind to possibilities.