ADB on the new Black Templar fluff

[Honda]

No Chapter maintains the Great Crusade Imperial truth, they have their own traditions that exist in constant development from the various foundings.

 

 

I think you are mistaken brother. We are the only chapter that still maintains the Great Crusade Imperial Truth. We've been doing that for the last 10,000 years because that's what the Emperor told us to do.

 

When he tells us to stop we will, but until then we will be crusading...

 

I think what distinguishes us more than anything else from other chapters is that we are an Army of Faith. Our faith in the Emperor has never dwindled, we've never questioned why we do what we do, never regret any actions we take.

 

I am a staunch "Book of McNeill" and "Helsreach" kind of Templar and I don't really care what has been published post those holy tomes that might contradict them. I do think that McNeill's "Lords of Mars" series builds on our original earlier lore.

 

That’s going to vary from Inquisitor to Inquisitor. The old Templars were only allowed to ally with Grey Knights, but that was before the ally chart mechanism became a thing. The Templars would probably have varying reactions to a psychic Inquisitor based on the overall sentiments of the Crusade in question. Some may be hardline, others might not. The Inquisitor may not reveal they are a Psyker at all and the Templars would have no way of knowing.

 

My crusade has never hesitated to purge an inquisitor found to pursue goals at odds with our stated purpose.

 

I wrote a piece of fanfic for the old librarius about how Navigators and Astropaths would essentially live cloistered lives of leisure aboard Templar ships, where they were not allowed to interact with anyone except a serf caste that would ritually purify themselves before and after interacting with the mutants. It felt suitably grimdark, appropriate tonthe setting, it was well received andjust goes to show that a little bit of thought goes a long way in making things that seem irreconcilable work together really well.

 

I really like this idea.

 

Usually when someone tries to do the whole "You hate psykers, how can you fly your ships?" I just turn it back on them and say, "We are guided by the Emperor's light. It's all we need. Anything else is heresy."

 

But I like how you've brought potentially conflicting points together MR.

 

Given what's written, and my ignorance of it is it possible that the Templars' faith *is* distinct from the Ecclessiarchy?

 

That is: their creed and culture and beliefs are actually ferociously distinct. Think: ostensibly the three Abrahamic world religions are ostensibly all of the same belief in the Primacy of (One) God - but we see they are quite at odds in many ways.

 

In that way, the Templars' Creed could be an Imperial Creed, but quite autonomous and divergent from the exact scriptures of almost all Ecclessiarchy-sanctioned creeds. To the point that it's not one of the Emperor-as-Sun/Death/Whatevs cults that can be incorporated - but is a genuine point of doctrinal friction and fracture?

 

 

Agree that there could very easily allow "wiggle" room within the canon to basically cover all the different factions under the Imperial umbrella.

 

Good discussion.

[Schlitzaf]

I always felt personally, it was a distrust of Witchery not of pyskers. Linked but not the same. Astropath and Navigators are pyskers but not ‘witches’. They cannot manifest external pyshic abilities only internal. Our old book did not forbid us from allying with pyskers. It forbade us from allying to individuals with psychic powers beside Grey Knights.

 

Back in 5th I was able to take an Inquistor Lord with a Hood for exactly that reason. And our interaction with Greyfax who is a Pysker but based on what I can tell her abilities manifest in better chance to deny/shutting down enemy pyskers not with blasting the enemy with laser beams.

 

Which is how I always written my lore, pyskers with internal based powers, Templars have no issue with. Obviously they are Emperor Approved, external ones are a sign of witchcraft and thus necessary to purge. Even the OG Knights most of their powers (Hammerhand one of their most often used) where buffs not attacks or debuffs.

 

That and like some others, I am a Black Templar because of the individuality within the chapter and each squad.

[Marshal Rohr]

Its been a while, but I think crunchwise it was just Grey Knights. Inquisitors with Psychic powers were a no-no. The Force Hood debate was over whether or not someone with a force hood was actually a psyker. Lorewise, Templars always allied with psychic Inquisitors when they needed to, from our earliest official stories on. 

[Schlitzaf]

http://i.imgur.com/drlq9nl.jpg

 

Models with powers were disallowed not pyskers in general

Hopefully that link works. But yeah the idea of internal Powers being okay, or with pyshic Abilities manifest as a traditional styled mutation instead of external, Templars are more okay with it

Edited December 23, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Aegir_Einarsson]

When I was searching google about and looking about interaction BT with SoB i found old B&C topic:

 

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274053-so-why-do-sisters-and-black-templars-hate-each-other/

 

 

It is worth read, because of some interesting points of view.

 

Long story short, few people mentioned about, that BT don't treat Emperor as god. He is Emperor, Light of mankind, but we don't treat him as god.

 

Second thought was about Imperum Truth. We, help Emperor implement it through Galaxy.

 

So in fact we can't worship Empror as a god, because we know that he's will was to replenish any cult as "wide open door's for chaos", and he didn't want to be a subject of a cult.

 

Very interesting point of view. And it is clear that we belive in Emperor but not as god but as Defender and leader of Mankind.

 

What you guys think about that?

 

 

 

Schlitzaf ->  internal Powers could you say more what you have in mind, because I can't understand that. What Internal Powers means?

 

Schlitzaf -> same with this :  with pyshic Abilities manifest as a traditional styled mutation instead of external. What where you thinking of?

Edited December 23, 2017 by Aegir_Einarsson

[Medjugorje]

Aegir_Einarsson

 

they talk so because old fluff (=old topic)

[Kastor Krieg]

> The Inquisitor may not reveal they are a Psyker at all and the Templars would have no way of knowing.

Of course they would.

+ THEY WOULD LOOK LIKE AN EMPEROR-DAMNED WITCH!!! +

 

[Khornestar]

 

 

“There is no one true 40K, there’s just the way you look at the lore through your own lenses”

 

 

I may diverge in that I actually do like the loose nature of canon in the 40k universe. It makes everything potentially just a legend... It allows you to make the universe your own as you decide what the real truth is or even what it encompasses.

 

The concept of the "unreliable narrator" is the backbone of my reasoning behind the flux of canon over the years. The people telling the story can't get it right - there is no unbiased voice, and quite often, horribly misguided.

 

 

I, too, find this to be one of the more appealing aspects of the narrative/franchise. Adhering dogmatically to fiction isn't my scene, and while I don't care if others do, it's nice to have wiggle room in terms of authors and fans alike.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Juggernut

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Medjugorie - damn. It looks like i like old fluff better:).

 

Zeal isn't just religious thing. We can have zeal, just because Emperor ordered us directly to cłami galach in his name. Hmmm I like it.

[Firepower]

Zeal isn't just religious thing. 

 

This would be that nuance I was talking about earlier. :tu:

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The biggest problem with the post ADB 'the Emperor is a God' fluff is I just can't believe Sigismund would have converted to the followings of the lectitio divinitatus. He was too devout a servant of what the Emperor actually wanted.

[Ciler]

Why not. We don't have the full story, but we know he's met and been shaken by Keeler. If he were to witness a "miracle", like Garo did, it could explain a change of mind.

 

And besides, you don't need Sigismund to convert fully. If he doubts, that's enough to explain that 10k years later, BTs may believe.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Considering the confusion of the 41st millennium fluff alone I think 'may' is as high as we can put it.

 

Personally, I prefer Grimaldus' view. It has the most thought behind it.

 

"Thousands of worlds pray to the Emperor not as a man, but as a god or a spirit; a warrior-avatar; a benevolent entity beyond the grave; a seasonal avatar that brings annual floods and commands the sun to rise each dawn."

 

"I wondered how true that was, across the galaxy. The Emperor was immortal and mighty beyond reckoning. But he was no god. Mankind –in its blessed ignorance –worshipped him as one. Yet false gods cannot answer prayers. How tempting it must seem to those sects and societies far from Terra to seek other answers when pleading with the Emperor brings only silence."

[Ciler]

So do I, but I'm just saying it's possible, whether I like it or not.

[Medjugorje]

Like I said before. If you want to see that in this way, you should do it. But its clearly not canon. I want to have a clear standing from GW - If they say it is different from my opinion then I have to take it.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Brother Adelard - Nice. I need to read helsreach Again:). I've misses that:).

 

One thing. Meditation before battle And waiting for illumination from Emperor for becoming EC was written after or before Helsreach?

 

I like This idea, but If I'm correct becoming a EC is to have some little part of Emperors "soul" inside? Or it is just blessing? If it is Right we have some direct contact with the Emperor himself?

[Marshal Rohr]

The Templars fast a lot. It’s mentioned in the FFG sourcebooks. The EC might be a hunger induced hallucination. It’s also possible they expose themselves to stimulants or hullucinigenic, meditative drugs to induce visions. It doesn’t have to be an actual communion with the Emperor in a supernatural sense, and it makes it much more realistic if it’s not.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The meditation before battle concept dates back to 3rd edition Codex Space Marines I believe. (Pre-Armageddon)

 

I don't know of any 'soul' idea in the fluff. It's my theory that they are some sort of psychically attuned avatar.(Which I think is more 'in-universe' realistic tbh)

Edited December 24, 2017 by Brother Adelard

[Honda]

The Templars fast a lot. It’s mentioned in the FFG sourcebooks. The EC might be a hunger induced hallucination.

 

 

Actually, fasting provides a clarity and focus to your thoughts. It gives your mind/spirit/soul the ability to place your physical desires aside and focus on an activity, in this case prayer.

 

Can a person/super human fast for too long and get delusional? Absolutely, but that going the extreme rout. Fasting is a tool and considering the nature of our chapter, not surprising that it is used.

 

It’s also possible they expose themselves to stimulants or hullucinigenic, meditative drugs to induce visions. It doesn’t have to be an actual communion with the Emperor in a supernatural sense, and it makes it much more realistic if it’s not.

 

 

This is pure speculation. There is nothing in our lore to even remotely indicate that this kind of activity is going on. In fact, I'd say just the opposite.

 

There is plenty of fiction talking about humans indulging in various forms of drugs (e.g lho sticks), but never an Astartes.

[Scribe]

The biggest problem with the post ADB 'the Emperor is a God' fluff is I just can't believe Sigismund would have converted to the followings of the lectitio divinitatus. He was too devout a servant of what the Emperor actually wanted.

 

Its not ADB who did that to Sigismund, it was the Heresy authors, I think French?

[Ciler]

French doesn't touch on the question in Templar. It's whoever does the Garro series.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Thinking about it, considering how well Astartes bodies deal with all types of drugs and toxins, you'd need something pretty hardcore to make them hallucinate!

[Marshal Rohr]

Oh, I definitely meant it to be speculative. With the way Astartes metabolisms work I doubt hallucinogenic drugs as we understand them would even work the same way. Like Adelard said, it would probably need to be super potent the way Abnett’s mjod was. I didn’t mean like magic mushrooms or LSD, either, I meant like a cartoon hallucinogen.

[Firepower]

I had a thread a couple years back in the Amicus that touched on a similar nerve: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/320127-on-matters-of-faith/

 

But I'll skip to the most relevant questions-

 

"Now then, on a different note, a lot of people have pointed to the Emperor as the direct source of power for any miraculous feat performed by the faithful, so here are some new questions:

 

1)  Does every achievement through faith in the Throne draw from His power, no matter the scale?  I feel like the Emperor would be far more powerful and involved than He's supposed to be if every rebuffed sorcerous attack was His direct, deliberate intervention.  Living saints with super powers and Champions radiant with holy golden light, sure.

 

2)  Can He force his power on to people?  Or can he only gift His power to people that are open to it?  

 

3)  In that same vein, is He so weak that a powerful faith is the only thing that can draw the energy from Him?  This is the difference between him bestowing power and having power taken from Him.  I feel like this possibility may best portray the state of the Emperor as the nearly helpless sod He's often made out to be in fluff.

 

4) Can it be a mixture of 2 and 3?  For general triumphs of faith, it is drawn from him, but the rare, huge ones like the creation of a Saint or Champion are events where He uses what power He can spare directly?"

 

The thing is, connection to the Emperor's psychic power may not necessitate that the recipient is his or herself a psycher.  Every human soul is connected intrinsically to the Warp's psychich essence, whereas psychers are simply those with a much greater capacity to interact with it.  The Emperor pouring His essence or will into a mortal could, in practice, be a version of possession, in that a stronger soul exerts its will on to and to some degree replaces or overrides the individual's, a process made easier if the recipient is open to or inviting said possession (i.e. a praying Templar). 

 

Even non-psychers can become possessed by demons as well, after all.  Psychers are dangerous because it is a much easier, more tempting and more powerful conduit for demons to use than non-psychers (especially when the unclean witches like Librarians voluntarily open themselves to the Warp's touch by calling upon its unholy power, regardless of intent).

 

In short, a psychic gift from the Emperor does not necessitate a psycher.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

So basicly my idea is possible,but as i understand it right there is No official source that said about how marines became EC? I know about praying And geting vision. But is This just vision of purpose that push you to Great deeds or unnatural strenght given directly by the Emperor himself it is not clear at all.