ADB on the new Black Templar fluff

[Firepower]

Yeah, it seems to have become widely accepted lore, but I don't know of any specific text that says Champions are doomed to die within the Crusade they are selected for.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, it seems to have become widely accepted lore, but I don't know of any specific text that says Champions are doomed to die within the Crusade they are selected for.

 

I don't think that is the lore, they are doomed to die as the Champion, but not in any specific crusade. Their death may be in the next battle, it may be in a future battle a long way off, but they will die there as they envisioned. (But then again Space Marines don't often die of old age do they?)

 

There's a really cool novella set on Armageddon where a crusade led by a dreadnought is set out to recover the Champion, or his equipment, the main reason they think he isn't dead is because no one else has ascended to the role yet.

[Kastor Krieg]

Basically, an EC is called upon to perform A Great Deed. It's not like it has to be within the next five minutes and it's not like he HAS TO die in the process - it's just that the greatness of the deed often calls upon the Champion to sacrifice fully.

Amalrich was the other way 'round. He was a freaking Marshal and apparently after he became the Champion it turned out that his deed was one, to enable the Crusade to reach Guilliman and two, to ensure his survival, by lodging the Black Sword in the Bloodthirster's heart. It was all he could do, we know it takes either a primarch (say, Sanguinius) or a whole cohort of Grey Knights to banish a greater daemon / daemon prince of Khorne.

He stood vs THAT, one on one and managed to do major damage that was enough that Guilliman could basically just finish the Bloodthirster off. That's an epic deed.

[Firepower]

I don't know if Grey Knights and Primarchs are the only things that can slay a Greater Demon (shy of chucking an entire army and/or some psykers at one and hoping for the best), but they certainly have a much better chance than a normal marine with no psychic power, that's for sure.  So in that lens, yeah, ramming the Black Blade through its heart is pretty damn impressive, nearly on par with Papa Sig wounding Abaddon to near death.

 

My memory is vague, but I think Ludoldus, a Champion and a Sister banished a Greater Demon in a volcano with the holy hand grenade...which is a helluva sentence, now that I look at it.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Firepower

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Basically, an EC is called upon to perform A Great Deed. It's not like it has to be within the next five minutes and it's not like he HAS TO die in the process - it's just that the greatness of the deed often calls upon the Champion to sacrifice fully.

 

Amalrich was the other way 'round. He was a freaking Marshal and apparently after he became the Champion it turned out that his deed was one, to enable the Crusade to reach Guilliman and two, to ensure his survival, by lodging the Black Sword in the Bloodthirster's heart. It was all he could do, we know it takes either a primarch (say, Sanguinius) or a whole cohort of Grey Knights to banish a greater daemon / daemon prince of Khorne.

 

He stood vs THAT, one on one and managed to do major damage that was enough that Guilliman could basically just finish the Bloodthirster off. That's an epic deed.

 

Skarbrand... not just any Daemon of Khorne, but a Greater Bloodthirster of Khorne that challenged Khorne himself... he lodged a Black Sword into THAT Daemon Lord... and Guilliman barely survived and almost got his head cleaved off if it wasn't for shooting the Black Sword shattering it to pieces and blowing up the Greater Daemon in the process...

 

Now I'm not sure if his actions are heretical or not, since he broke a Black Sword, but he banished a Greater Daemon in the process...

 

 

I don't know if Grey Knights and Primarchs are the only things that can slay a Greater Demon (shy of chucking an entire army and/or some psykers at one and hoping for the best), but they certainly have a much better chance than a normal marine with no psychic power, that's for sure.  So in that lens, yeah, ramming the Black Blade through its heart is pretty damn impressive, nearly on par with Papa Sig wounding Abaddon to near death.

 

My memory is vague, but I think Ludoldus, a Champion and a Sister banished a Greater Demon in a volcano with the holy hand grenade...which is a helluva sentence, now that I look at it.

 

In 4th ed. it was Ludoldus, a Champion and a Sister that fought the Greater Daemon, in Blood and Fire, it was Ludoldus, Ulricus, Jasmine, a host of Templars and Sisters and finally Grimaldus himself that saw the end to the Daemon... not by engulfing it in magma, but by bolts, blades and a well placed Orb of Antioch until it was completely vaporized from existence... just had a read of it myself last night... excellent bed time story :D

[Honda]

not by engulfing it in magma, but by bolts, blades and a well placed Orb of Antioch until it was completely vaporized from existence...

 

 

Well, that's what happens around Templars when you don't answer all three questions correctly.

[Kastor Krieg]

Bolts, blades, zeal and a vortex grenade for good measure. Job done :D

And yeah, Skarbrand. I think the action was in no way "heretical", Amalrich didn't know what would happen to the sword and to Guilliman that's just a "+2 Str mastercrafted power sword", you know. He didn't have the historical attachment to it, but saw the opening and banished Skarbrand. So yeah, Amalrich = hero. 

[Marshal Arthur]

I don't really mind the Templars being religious. It seems to explain their zealous crusader spirit and it makes them distinct from other chapters. That said I only started my Templar army a year and a half ago so I'm sure for someone who's been in it for a longtime it was a more jarring transition. I just personally feel that it explains a lot and really sets us apart. Of course this only works if the fluff is handled well and in any case I'll defer to ADB on Templar fluff.

[Sete]

Don't. He's a traitor and a heretic.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Who, Amalrich or ADB?

[Firepower]

 

In 4th ed. it was Ludoldus, a Champion and a Sister that fought the Greater Daemon, in Blood and Fire, it was Ludoldus, Ulricus, Jasmine, a host of Templars and Sisters and finally Grimaldus himself that saw the end to the Daemon... not by engulfing it in magma, but by bolts, blades and a well placed Orb of Antioch until it was completely vaporized from existence... just had a read of it myself last night... excellent bed time story

 

Wishing more than ever that I had a copy of Blood and Fire.  :(

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

Got a Kindle? Or a Kindle app?

[Firepower]

Books were meant to be on paper!  Paper!!!  

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

 

In 4th ed. it was Ludoldus, a Champion and a Sister that fought the Greater Daemon, in Blood and Fire, it was Ludoldus, Ulricus, Jasmine, a host of Templars and Sisters and finally Grimaldus himself that saw the end to the Daemon... not by engulfing it in magma, but by bolts, blades and a well placed Orb of Antioch until it was completely vaporized from existence... just had a read of it myself last night... excellent bed time story

 

Wishing more than ever that I had a copy of Blood and Fire. 

 

 

I'm actually surprised you don't have a copy of it yet... I bought Armageddon on release date waiting in front of a GW store as if I was a Star Wars fan wearing Jedi Robes in front of a massive line for Last Jedi... the major difference was I wasn't disappointed with Armageddon... Helsreach was still cool and it had Blood and Fire as extra...

[BitsHammer]

Books were meant to be on paper!  Paper!!!  

 

Not reading books hand written by quill on sheets of ordained vellum by scribes who are too illiterate to actually read the words they copy mindlessly?

 

Sounds like you need a paddlin'.

 

And yes, find yourself a copy of Blood and Fire, it's a good story and makes me wonder if the aide of the Templars will lead to more zealous Celestial Lions in the future (or maybe they just all end up Primaris'd instead). Then maybe they could stop making puns about being the Emperor's pride when they charge into battle.

 

Moving on to the actual depictions of religion and the big E:

 

Even before the change in tone of how the Templars in general are said to view the Emperor there have been chapters who work closely with the Ecclesiarchy or subscribe to the idea that the Emperor is a divine being. Coincidentally, if my memory is correct, one of those chapters is the White Templars.

 

Actually, it's likely not a coincidence as it was likely done intentionally and I almost wish it was due to the Black Templars splitting into two groups like the Iron Fists/Sons of Medusa did when they ended up forming two very different viewpoints. This would create two very similar, but ultimately different chapters who act the same on the table while having different visual color pallets. Also having a second founding chapter getting away with something that usually only first founding chapters (*coughDARKANGELS*cough*)would even think about doing without being exterminatused on sight would fit well into the universe I think. Mostly because with the size of the chapter I don't think anyone could pull off slighting the Templars.

 

Moving on past my thoughts of missed opportunities, I think we like to forget that it's M41 now (formerly M40, but since GW sneezed and skipped a century we've moved into a new millennia) and that the Great Crusade ended over 10k years ago. Save for Bjorn and Lysander there aren't any loyalists left (unless I'm forgetting someone, but there are at least none left that are Templars) who actively served in establishing the Imperial Truth. And without a librarium or remembrances to act as record keepers as they do in other chapters things are going to get lost.

 

Heck, even the Ultramarines themselves don't have a complete copy of the original Codex that they follow (assuming RG hasn't taken the time to rewrite it for mass release), which makes it even more likely for even the Templars to have lost things, or things to end up distorted in all that time.

 

I'm not saying they MUST be religious nutters, but I am saying that over ten thousand years it's easy for truths to become falsehoods and falsehoods to become truths.

 

Or at least for the message to end up garbled enough that you'd have Templars who actively believe in the Emperor's divinity. I mean they basically played the universe's longest game of telephone (ten thousand years and counting!) and we STILL don't know how religious Siggy himself was by the time of his death. I imagine that it's very possible that he may have ended up started that ball rolling unintentionally after his meeting with Keeler.

 

I'd even argue that you can have both atheist and religious Templars as canon by making it a matter of when in their history the story occurs. Or by having it be a personal interpretation thing in the chapter itself. You get a mix of beliefs causing things to vary from Crusade to Crusade based on the lessons each Templar learned in becoming an Initiate. Again, they ARE playing the biggest game of interstellar telephone ever.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

You have forgotten a large swathe of loyalists who were present in the early post-heresy Imperium, (To be fair, I often do too.) The Primaries Marines.

 

A lot of them are OLD. I remember reading somewhere that some of them were present to see the Primarchs.

 

This may also be a source of future tension within the Chapter if the 'Emperor is a God' fluff continues. If some of our Primaris marines are former Fists, it's unlikely they will share that view of the big E.

[Medjugorje]

For me it seems like a discussion to legitimate the old fluff. But its a hopeless thing. At the moment, Grimaldus, Helbrecht are very orthodox belivers. It doesnt matter what happened in M34 because we talk about the Templars NOW. Some guys have to accept the new fluff without liking it.

[Sete]

You have forgotten a large swathe of loyalists who were present in the early post-heresy Imperium, (To be fair, I often do too.) The Primaries Marines.

 

A lot of them are OLD. I remember reading somewhere that some of them were present to see the Primarchs.

 

This may also be a source of future tension within the Chapter if the 'Emperor is a God' fluff continues. If some of our Primaris marines are former Fists, it's unlikely they will share that view of the big E.

I could not groan loud enough for this one. Primaris Marines.

Someone is going to be throw out of the airlock if they contest the chapter beliefs. I don't think GW though that far ahead.

BT don't have a Primarch, so we will be in the sidelines.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Sete

[Brother Tyler]

"BT don't have a Primarch"?!!!

 

20 minutes in the pain glove for you.

 

Rogal Dorn spits upon your lapse.

[Sete]

He can't spit, he's dead Edited December 31, 2017 by Sete

[Sword Brother Adelard]

For me it seems like a discussion to legitimate the old fluff. But its a hopeless thing. At the moment, Grimaldus, Helbrecht are very orthodox belivers. It doesnt matter what happened in M34 because we talk about the Templars NOW. Some guys have to accept the new fluff without liking it.

The quotes above saying the Emperor was not a good are from Grimaldus himself. That's hardly M34, it was M41!

 

And we don't 'have' to accept the fluff. We can write our own for our own Crusades as we see fit.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Brother Adelard

[cypherthefallenangel]

For me it seems like a discussion to legitimate the old fluff. But its a hopeless thing. At the moment, Grimaldus, Helbrecht are very orthodox belivers. It doesnt matter what happened in M34 because we talk about the Templars NOW. Some guys have to accept the new fluff without liking it.

This is our hobby so you really don't have to except any new fluff you don't like. Hell I started in RT and I refused to change my DA to green so still to this day all of my approximately 15k of DA still rock the black 1st legion armor. I also prefer the old Templar fluff and no matter how bad GW wants me to include witches in my army , it will never happen. I'm not going to argue with people about who's fluff is right or wrong. My Templars will always revere the Emperor as the leader of humanity(not a god) and burn witches.

[Medjugorje]

 

For me it seems like a discussion to legitimate the old fluff. But its a hopeless thing. At the moment, Grimaldus, Helbrecht are very orthodox belivers. It doesnt matter what happened in M34 because we talk about the Templars NOW. Some guys have to accept the new fluff without liking it.

The quotes above saying the Emperor was not a good are from Grimaldus himself. That's hardly M34, it was M41!

 

And we don't 'have' to accept the fluff. We can write our own for our own Crusades as we see fit.

 

 

You can say that...     but its simply not canon. And if you dont have problems with that fact everything is okay. But if you are interested in the lore of 40k, i mean the official - then its simply not true.

[Medjugorje]

 

For me it seems like a discussion to legitimate the old fluff. But its a hopeless thing. At the moment, Grimaldus, Helbrecht are very orthodox belivers. It doesnt matter what happened in M34 because we talk about the Templars NOW. Some guys have to accept the new fluff without liking it.

This is our hobby so you really don't have to except any new fluff you don't like. Hell I started in RT and I refused to change my DA to green so still to this day all of my approximately 15k of DA still rock the black 1st legion armor. I also prefer the old Templar fluff and no matter how bad GW wants me to include witches in my army , it will never happen. I'm not going to argue with people about who's fluff is right or wrong. My Templars will always revere the Emperor as the leader of humanity(not a god) and burn witches.

 

You can ignore it... but you know that is true.

 

Search your feelings.  You know that its true.

You can destroy GW - they has forseen this.

Join me and together we can rule the galaxy...

come with me, it is the only way^^

[Sword Brother Adelard]

But there isn't such a thing as true Canon in 40k. That's half the point. Otherwise, if everything in Codex Space Marines is true and cancels out all fluff which says otherwise, then loads of stuff just wipes. Helsreach: Gone. Blood and Fire: wiped.

Codex Space Marines has loads of mistakes, for instance, Grimaldus is listed as the 'High Chaplain' whereas everywhere else he's the Reclusiarch. the new title only appears in the codex, does that mean that all the other fluff is now dead? And he is and never was the Reclusiarch? I don't think so.

 

However, these differences all fit more neatly into the unreliable narrator concept,he is therefore both. To the Chapter he is the Reclusiarch, outside the Chapter where that title means little, he is simply the high chaplain. Seen through that lens, there is no canon.

 

To quote the light side of that great unreliably narrated sci-fi epic:

 

"What I told you was true, from a certain point of view...you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view"

Edited December 31, 2017 by Brother Adelard