ADB on the new Black Templar fluff

[Acebaur]

The only canon in 40k is that there is no canon. GW has very much fostered an environment of the unreliable narrator

[Khornestar]

But there isn't such a thing as true Canon in 40k. That's half the point. 

 

Exactly. As quoted earlier, ADB mentioned that this is the attitude at GW itself. The desire to see something as ironclad "canon" is a decision made by passionate fans, who, with respect, often cannot resist telling other fans they're wrong for interpreting things differently or applying their own narrative (i.e. one not found in a GW publication) to the setting. 

 

For example, someone can have traitor Grey Knights in their chaos army. "But that would never happen! Grey Knights NEVER fall to chaos, it's part of their core definition!" And yet, the models are in the army, and that's the narrative the player constructed for them. People don't have to like it, but it's perfectly valid.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Juggernut

[Aegir_Einarsson]

It lets face it. It would not happened ever.... .

 

 

Ok. Jokes aside. I have same opinion. The fluff that is given to us is just some frame thing. We can create it at our will. Who knows What is going on in the far corner of the galaxy. It is same way that authors do. They have frame, core informations And plot, but They create new events, And new facts. And sometimes it states against current fluff, but it is nothing wrong, sometimes in the far corner of galaxy some strange things happened, strange ccoalitions are made And strange beliefs are created..... . And that is the reason that crusade is eternal.... because we need to purge those heretics.

 

Cheers:):)

 

P.s. I'm Also loyal to the old fluff. AM I heretic right now??

If i can Argue that properly And create Nice fluff base And płot/history around that fact that is probable and compatible with main core fluff it is Ok. In my opinion

Edited January 1, 2018 by Aegir_Einarsson

[BitsHammer]

Juggernaut nailed it exactly: GW wants the fluff to be as open as possible to not hamper anyone's crazy (or not so crazy) ideas, especially since that can sell more kits to support the conversions that'd go with it.

 

Heck, I'd even fess up that if Sisters got plastics I've always wanted to do a group of them as a before/after sort of deal where I'd have the loyalist version and then their crazed Khorne tainted version who survived a jaunt through the warp when their whole shrine world was swallowed up and now see Heresy in everything except themselves leading them to lead a Crusade of Faith to purge the Imperium (and every other faction they run into) of their heresy.

 

Biggest reason for this was to have a Sisters army that could fight loyalists without looking like a "training exercise" or another attempt for the Sisters to train the Space Wolves how to sit, but as I considered it more the idea spiraled out thanks to the fluff about a loyalist chapter who were forcefully pulled into Khorne's servitude thanks to a magical blood fountain. Falling willingly isn't a Sisters thing, but being forced into servitude has happened to them before (like the Screaming Cage) and making them think they're still in the "right" only amps up the levels of irony for me.

 

So yeah, you can get people mucking with the fluff because they have their own personal headcanons that aren't officially supported and that's perfectly okay, I mean if it wasn't then we wouldn't be playing a game that supports conversions and general levels of creative insanity to occur.

 

That said, I do wish that GW would stop flip flopping on aspects of the fluff. Templars becoming religious would be alright if it was presented as an ironic twist of how far the Imperium has fallen in terms of what they knew then and what they think they know now instead of just a hard shift for no reason other than GW wanting a big name chapter to be religious instead of making a chapter or dragging one of the lesser known chapters (like the White Templars I mentioned before) into the limelight.

 

It's the sort of shift that can detract from what draws people into their armies and can kill the zeal that a person relies on to build/paint/play an army/collection. Done well these sorts of shifts can present an unreliable narrator or highlight the irony that the Imperium has gone completely backwards from what the Emperor intended, done poorly and we get stuff like the Black Templars spontaneously becoming religious and it overwriting the past canon.

[Scribe]

 

But there isn't such a thing as true Canon in 40k. That's half the point. 

 

Exactly. As quoted earlier, ADB mentioned that this is the attitude at GW itself. The desire to see something as ironclad "canon" is a decision made by passionate fans, who, with respect, often cannot resist telling other fans they're wrong for interpreting things differently or applying their own narrative (i.e. one not found in a GW publication) to the setting. 

 

For example, someone can have traitor Grey Knights in their chaos army. "But that would never happen! Grey Knights NEVER fall to chaos, it's part of their core definition!" And yet, the models are in the army, and that's the narrative the player constructed for them. People don't have to like it, but it's perfectly valid.

 

 

There....should be room for both.

 

Ones army is ones army. They should be able to do whatever they want, use the models they want, convert to their hearts content, and of course its all well and good. Its their army.

 

There should also (imo) be a singular, true, canon. 

 

But there isnt, and I think thats a flaw.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I think though that we can all agree on this being the case:

 

Templars will never accept a Librarian in their ranks, they will never yield themselves to the taint of psychic mutations, and if they do, then they would literally kill themselves first than disobey the Emperor's direct orders during the Council of Nikaea.

 

Which makes GWs Templars absolutely wrong in wanting a Librarian for themselves... and mostly speaks about how the narrator of that Codex is a spineless heretical witch...

[BitsHammer]

I can agree with that: some factions who lack psykers shouldn't desire psykers. Even if Templars don't remember why they don't have psykers (assuming they even have information about the Council of Nikae since I can imagine it may have been censored since M30 due to the involvement of Mortarion in pushing the Imperium to start a literal witch hunt (source: Codex Death Guard)) wistfully pining over not having them is frankly absurd. Heck, the Ministorum is pretty anti-psyker/witch and seeing as they're now part of the Super Best Friends Forever Club with each other, that alone would kill the notion pretty much outright.

 

Now I can definitely see some issues for the Templars not having a Librarium since that is where the chapter's history is stored and lacking that they don't have any Marines who properly control it. Helbrecht takes care of the artifacts, sure, but he's not responsible for keeping the chapter's history which may lead to some unintentional bungling if it's left in the hands of mortals to do. It's a logistical problem I'd love to see some answer to even if that answer is "they don't do anything with it and the archives of the chapter are a mess because of it". I'm sure the rest of the Imperium direly wants the Templars to actually turn in their paperwork after ten thousand years as well.

 

That said, instead of trying to coax us into wanting psykers (as GW seems to be trying to do) they really should be looking to giving the chapter access to other ways of dealing with Psykers. Templars are the only chapter known to go on literal witchhunts (unless I'm forgetting other chapters, but as far as I can recall the Templars are the closest chapter to working as a kind of Astartes Ordeo Hereticus support, doubly so now that they are canon friends with the Sisters (making my avatar less heresy now thankfully), so tossing in some anti-witch wargear (say, Condemnor Boltguns, or perhaps access to a relic that kills psychic powers cast on units with in it's bubble or some other third thing) would go a long way to supporting that.

 

Basically instead of making Templars lean more and more towards developing psykers, the chapter should be pushing towards having tools to fight psykers more directly.

 

I mean if you want to do something with Templars and psykers add some hints that Emperor's Champions might be a little like Sisters: connected to the Emperor through the Warp despite not drawing power from the warp itself. Don't lay it on thick and only hint at it so we can take the idea in any direction and leave the idea of having Templars who wear blue in some bad fanfiction instead of on the table.

[Eddie Orlock]

... Biggest reason for this was to have a Sisters army that could fight loyalists without looking like a "training exercise" ...

There's a whole lot more room under the umbrella of 'doctrinal disagreement' and misunderstanding than mere training exercises. It's not that their fellow elements of the imperium don't worship the Emperor, it's that they worship the Emperor wrong. Which might arguably be worse depending on your perspective.

 

"Your unit stands while reciting the 'Ave Imperitor' during pre-battle mass, colonel?"

 

I know my sisters would be more than willing to engage if another formation failed to offer proper and timely supplication to a shrine of Our Lady of Perpetual Ammunition.

 

It's like turning on the Lion's sons when they politely request extradition of a prisoner. Who punishes the condemned seems like such a petty thing to come to blows over.

 

---------

 

Re: Emperor's champions and super powers. It all makes so much sense if you know your warp mechanics and understand it as a form of Demonic Possession. First, we'll establish than when a personage is in supplication and communion to a warp power, by and large they're only open to soul exchange with that power. In this case, it's a mix of meditating upon and worshiping the Emperor. When the Emperor rended his soul to defeat the Horus gambit he created a warp vortex that was more open to such communion. Anyway, during the acts of worship, when for lack of clearer terminology, the Templars are astrally projecting into the warp and broadcasting to link up with the Imperial Spirit it's quite likely that one will succeed. Especially if the ritual is set up to continue until one does. Now, during this link up and communion, part of the Templar's soul swirls in and intermingles with that of the Warp Emperor and when they're done communing what returns is a mix of the Templar's soul and a portion of the Emperor's. Of course, any loss from the Emperor is replaced with a mix of what the Templar left behind and new contributions brought into being by the worship of the other Templars during the rite.

 

The process is substantially similar to how say, a Berserker, communes with Khorne during ritual slaughter and how if they do it enough they wind up with mutations that bring them physically closer in to the aspect of the blood god they were in contact with. The difference is, communing with the Emperor makes you more like the Emperor and super human like the Emperor because of it. Only instead of getting a beastial visage and super strength, you get things like visions of the future because the Emperor has visions of the future and amazing sword fighting skills.

 

Of course, if the Templars had librarians they'd see what's going on with their warp-sight and they wouldn't be able to get away with this anymore, ergo some founder of the order who might actually have known what was up, liquidated it to preserve the secret.

[Honda]

Re: Emperor's champions and super powers. It all makes so much sense if you know your warp mechanics and understand it as a form of Demonic Possession. First, we'll establish than when a personage is in supplication and communion to a warp power, by and large they're only open to soul exchange with that power. In this case, it's a mix of meditating upon and worshiping the Emperor. When the Emperor rended his soul to defeat the Horus gambit he created a warp vortex that was more open to such communion. Anyway, during the acts of worship, when for lack of clearer terminology, the Templars are astrally projecting into the warp and broadcasting to link up with the Imperial Spirit it's quite likely that one will succeed. Especially if the ritual is set up to continue until one does. Now, during this link up and communion, part of the Templar's soul swirls in and intermingles with that of the Warp Emperor and when they're done communing what returns is a mix of the Templar's soul and a portion of the Emperor's. Of course, any loss from the Emperor is replaced with a mix of what the Templar left behind and new contributions brought into being by the worship of the other Templars during the rite.

 

The process is substantially similar to how say, a Berserker, communes with Khorne during ritual slaughter and how if they do it enough they wind up with mutations that bring them physically closer in to the aspect of the blood god they were in contact with. The difference is, communing with the Emperor makes you more like the Emperor and super human like the Emperor because of it. Only instead of getting a beastial visage and super strength, you get things like visions of the future because the Emperor has visions of the future and amazing sword fighting skills.

 

Of course, if the Templars had librarians they'd see what's going on with their warp-sight and they wouldn't be able to get away with this anymore, ergo some founder of the order who might actually have known what was up, liquidated it to preserve the secret.

 

 

Dude, you came to the wrong place to push that kind of stuff. Have we got a tall pole and some kindling waiting for you.

 

The initiate receives a vision from the Emperor. He does not "uplink" to the warp, that is heresy pure and simple. Only witches do that. The initiate receives a vision from the Emperor. I'm repeating that because it's important. He doesn't have an out of body experience, again witches only.He performs the same action as the rest of the brethren except that the Living Emperor bequeaths something special to him and him alone.

 

I'm glad you stopped by so we could clarify this for you.

 

The Kindling Room is just down the hall to your right. Your appointment is in five minutes.

 

Cheers,

[Eddie Orlock]

... [W]e got a tall pole and some kindling waiting for you. ...

I thank you for your gift of an immolation kit. My coterie of Sororita and I will put it to good use against some repugnant blashphemer.

 

Your gift to our mutual cause in the spirit of brotherly cooperation does you much credit.

[BitsHammer]

Re: purging loyalist armies for the sake of a good purge:

 

Honestly, I do see the point being raised but due to two Guard books I've read (Flesh and Iron and Redemption Corps) with Sisters as the antagonists and neither I really liked the Sister's motives. One was Istavanian and was intentionally leading to worlds being burned down to a single survivor for the sake of tempering humanity (but presented this like a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain despite the main character being a said sole survivor who effectively proves her ideology right by being able to stop her), and the latter had the Ministorum decide to purge the Guard they'd brought in to pacify the world for the sake of making it a shrine world and effectively making a smeg load of money (or the next nearest equiv). The Sisters in that were little more than mindless tools who would have made Vandire proud in how loyal they were to the Priest they were protecting instead of lopping his head of for being corrupt.

 

Basically if I want mindless cartoon villain Sisters I might as well make them Chaos aligned because then I can parse the silliness of it past something and justify it a little to myself.

 

And yes, loyalist versus loyalist can be done well, but honestly I always feel like when it's done someone gets the short end of the stick and doesn't get enough depth to justify why they're the antagonists in the story.

 

RE: Warp Projection

As mentioned before, that reeks too much of witchery. I see the Emperor's Champion more like a living Saint (perhaps not as cranked to 11 as Celestine since she seems to be a proper Daemon Princess of the Emperor now) as they go above and beyond what they would be able to do normally. They're a vessel for the will of the Emperor and that is something that psykers don't get to lay claim to.

 

I mean if you want to get down to it all of humanity in 40k has some level of psychic influence (ranging from being a psyker to negating the warp) but Templars have always fallen into the "blunt" part of the spectrum right in the middle and been unable to wield or majorly effect psykers. I'd even argue that the rule they have is more of GW throwing them a bone for balance than actual flavor since shutting down psykers through will alone would usually be a sign of possibly being a psyker or a witch (see the conflict from the Space Marine video game and how Titus resists the Warp despite not being a psyker). Sisters likely only get away with it as they do because louldly singing hymns is the Imperium's go to for both Sisters and Guardsmen to resist the taint of Chaos only Sisters apparently do it well enough to justify it as fluff.

 

If GW really wanted to give Templars some major love they could have made the entire chapter negate psychic powers Sisters of Silence style (perhaps a gene seed mutation that makes them immune to direct psychic attack for instance and likewise keeps them from having psykers), but then on the other hand that'd make it harder to receive visions from the Emperor since his powers operate based on the same rules and logic (sans potential for possession of course) as psykers do.

 

Plus I can't think of any chapters who try to intentionally draw recruits who can't be effected by psychic powers. I mean, sure, no one would LIKE them (in the fluff since Pariahs all set humanity on edge just by being around), but it'd make for a solid way to shut down chaos when they can't even get near you without being drained of their tainted might.

 

Actually that sounds like it'd work to well and thus shouldn't be an option I guess. That or an Inquisitor has been working on this for a while and there is some kind of issue involving the pariah gene and geneseed. Don't know, just kind of wish this would get addressed one way or another.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Re: Emperor's champions and super powers. It all makes so much sense if you know your warp mechanics and understand it as a form of Demonic Possession. First, we'll establish than when a personage is in supplication and communion to a warp power, by and large they're only open to soul exchange with that power. In this case, it's a mix of meditating upon and worshiping the Emperor. When the Emperor rended his soul to defeat the Horus gambit he created a warp vortex that was more open to such communion. Anyway, during the acts of worship, when for lack of clearer terminology, the Templars are astrally projecting into the warp and broadcasting to link up with the Imperial Spirit it's quite likely that one will succeed. Especially if the ritual is set up to continue until one does. Now, during this link up and communion, part of the Templar's soul swirls in and intermingles with that of the Warp Emperor and when they're done communing what returns is a mix of the Templar's soul and a portion of the Emperor's. Of course, any loss from the Emperor is replaced with a mix of what the Templar left behind and new contributions brought into being by the worship of the other Templars during the rite.

 

The process is substantially similar to how say, a Berserker, communes with Khorne during ritual slaughter and how if they do it enough they wind up with mutations that bring them physically closer in to the aspect of the blood god they were in contact with. The difference is, communing with the Emperor makes you more like the Emperor and super human like the Emperor because of it. Only instead of getting a beastial visage and super strength, you get things like visions of the future because the Emperor has visions of the future and amazing sword fighting skills.

 

Of course, if the Templars had librarians they'd see what's going on with their warp-sight and they wouldn't be able to get away with this anymore, ergo some founder of the order who might actually have known what was up, liquidated it to preserve the secret.

 

 

Dude, you came to the wrong place to push that kind of stuff. Have we got a tall pole and some kindling waiting for you.

 

The initiate receives a vision from the Emperor. He does not "uplink" to the warp, that is heresy pure and simple. Only witches do that. The initiate receives a vision from the Emperor. I'm repeating that because it's important. He doesn't have an out of body experience, again witches only.He performs the same action as the rest of the brethren except that the Living Emperor bequeaths something special to him and him alone.

 

I'm glad you stopped by so we could clarify this for you.

 

The Kindling Room is just down the hall to your right. Your appointment is in five minutes.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Sebastian Thor was apparently "possessed" by the Emperor in this same way, and he certainly wasn't a witch, at least according to the Thorians. Don't think of it as "uplinking", or anything like that, but rather the Emperor Himself bestowing a portion of His power upon the Champion. No witchery involved on the behalf of the Templars, just the might of the Emperor.

[Firepower]

That's vaguely what I was pointing out a few pages back.

 

The vision from the Emperor and reception of his power is similar in practice to demonic possession- a psychic force exerting its will on to and taking control of or influencing the essence of the 'host.'  However, possession by a demon does not necessitate a psycher, but rather psychers are just far more tempting and far more powerful mortals for demons to possess.  The same could be said for 'possession' by the Emperor.

 

The question comes down to the capabilities of the Emperor from His Golden Throne.  Whether he is capable of exerting His will upon any mortal or if it has to be beckoned and welcomed by a willing recipient, like a Templar in prayer.  The former would be far too powerful for the fading strength of the Emperor I believe, so it would more reasonably be the latter.

 

In short, like possession, the Emperor's will is exerted psychically (divine power, but psychic all the same) upon a willing recipient, whom does not have to be psychic himself but (most likely) inviting His will.

 

Now to be clear, the nature of the Emperor's Champion has become more ethereal and ramped up in recent fluff.  It used to simply be a vision, and that was all.  Now Champions are radiant with His light and supernatural on the surface, which would necessitate the sort of situation above.  Where it was once a matter of divine mandate, it is now a matter of the Templar being hollowed out and filled by the Emperor's divine power.  I quite like that, actually.  That the Champion is not just selected by the divine Emperor's power but granted a portion of His pure will elevates the character to a truly holy vessel and literal instrument of His will.  

 

And to nip any misunderstanding of my terminology in the bud, divinity does not necessitate Godhood.  The God-Emperor spin is still heresy

Edited January 2, 2018 by Firepower

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Long story short.

 

It is good posession because it ours posession:):).

[Sete]

Templars deny psychic powers due to sheer willpower. If that not cool as :cuss I don't know what is.

[BitsHammer]

Templars, Sisters (who get weak denial built into their Shield of Faith so while they can't shut down strong powers as easily, they can at least blunt Smite Spam more often), an Ultramarine character with their helmet (who denies as if he were a psyker which means he apparently denies with a will even stronger than someone like Helbrecht or Grimaldus can bring ), and I'm pretty sure World Eaters and Mechanicus get denial options that work similarly as well.

 

Yes, denying psykers via will power is cool, but it's a trick that Templars aren't alone in bringing to the table.

 

Frankly I feel like the Black Templar relic should have been a generic one and the Ultramarine's one should have been given to the Templars since it'd fit more in what the Templars do (hunt witches) than what the Ultramarines do (have witches, to include a character who may or may not be canon anymore and was half-Eldar).

[Firepower]

I feel like the "shear willpower" line is rather lazy, personally.  

[Sete]

What explanation would you give?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Faith? Not necessarily in the Emperor as a 'God' but faith in their cause. Resisting by willpower is more negative, it implies that they would need to resist, which doesn't make sense when you think about passive powers, how can a Templar 'resist' a Warlock casting Fortune on their own troops? The power doesn't even target them! But what if their pure faith creates a sisters of silence esque null zone? An area saturated with the Emperor's guiding light which prevents other Warp powers manifesting?

 

Back to the Champion topic, I agree with a lot of the recent additions to the idea. However, I still think that some of them would be Latent Psykers, because there is no other explanation for why we alone don't generate any at all.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Brother Adelard

[Eddie Orlock]

... Whether he is capable of exerting His will upon any mortal or if it has to be beckoned and welcomed by a willing recipient, like a Templar in prayer. ...

Like any bit of warp mechanics, the truth is usually a little bit more murky than that. Anyone recall the major demon mechanic from I think it was the 3.5 Chaos book? You know, the one where one champion would be selected to wear the summoning/binding chains and at the start of the turn the chump could choose to either invite or resist possession and this accordingly had an influence on how likely it was to happen that turn? Even if they chump resisted, there was still a chance of the demon taking over.

 

So it is with near all warp entities. There are, of course, other factors. It's much easier to summon Khaine into a statue within the Hall of the Young King than anywhere else, and other powers have other places of power consecrated to them.

 

So, the Emperor probably could, at least in some cases, forcibly possess a host. He's unlikely to do so, 'cause the warp aspect is all about altruism and compassion and mind control is seldom either of those and when you're a warp entity violating your own ethics is a deadly toxin. If we go way, way, back into the second(?) realm of chaos book though, one of the possible Sensei powers was to compel the redemption of heretics by direct exposure to the Emperor's divinity, so, it's not without some distant precedent.

 

Actually, I think we may have a better example much closer to home, Astropathic Soul Binding. Taken to a ritual site where they're scoured clean by the Emperor's might. They say right on the label that the Emperor's bestowed some tiny fraction of himself on the Astropath. I guess the question is, just how willing and conditioned are the Astropathic candidates?

 

-----

 

Regarding faith and the resistance of psionic activity.

 

So, the common analogy is the candle in the dark. Psykers have bigger flares, we're all familiar with this. What I'm going to liken this to today instead is speakers in the auditorium. Psykers have phat towers with huge amps with which to blow your hair back. Most folk just have a Walkman. But, if you can gather enough of them together, and co-ordinate their output, you could fill the same room with sound as that one jerk with the amp. And this is what the rites and catechisms do, provide a mental tool to get everyone to play the same song at the same time so that everything lines up harmonically. The sum of all the Watts.

 

It's why when all the warrior nuns sing the song of Seraphim moving really, really fast, the Seraphim get to move really, really fast.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

... Whether he is capable of exerting His will upon any mortal or if it has to be beckoned and welcomed by a willing recipient, like a Templar in prayer. ...

Like any bit of warp mechanics, the truth is usually a little bit more murky than that. Anyone recall the major demon mechanic from I think it was the 3.5 Chaos book? You know, the one where one champion would be selected to wear the summoning/binding chains and at the start of the turn the chump could choose to either invite or resist possession and this accordingly had an influence on how likely it was to happen that turn? Even if they chump resisted, there was still a chance of the demon taking over.

 

So it is with near all warp entities. There are, of course, other factors. It's much easier to summon Khaine into a statue within the Hall of the Young King than anywhere else, and other powers have other places of power consecrated to them.

 

So, the Emperor probably could, at least in some cases, forcibly possess a host. He's unlikely to do so, 'cause the warp aspect is all about altruism and compassion and mind control is seldom either of those and when you're a warp entity violating your own ethics is a deadly toxin. If we go way, way, back into the second(?) realm of chaos book though, one of the possible Sensei powers was to compel the redemption of heretics by direct exposure to the Emperor's divinity, so, it's not without some distant precedent.

 

Actually, I think we may have a better example much closer to home, Astropathic Soul Binding. Taken to a ritual site where they're scoured clean by the Emperor's might. They say right on the label that the Emperor's bestowed some tiny fraction of himself on the Astropath. I guess the question is, just how willing and conditioned are the Astropathic candidates?

 

-----

 

Regarding faith and the resistance of psionic activity.

 

So, the common analogy is the candle in the dark. Psykers have bigger flares, we're all familiar with this. What I'm going to liken this to today instead is speakers in the auditorium. Psykers have phat towers with huge amps with which to blow your hair back. Most folk just have a Walkman. But, if you can gather enough of them together, and co-ordinate their output, you could fill the same room with sound as that one jerk with the amp. And this is what the rites and catechisms do, provide a mental tool to get everyone to play the same song at the same time so that everything lines up harmonically. The sum of all the Watts.

 

It's why when all the warrior nuns sing the song of Seraphim moving really, really fast, the Seraphim get to move really, really fast.

 

 

The only thing I understood from this is:

 

"Burn The Witch! Hunt The Heretic! And Annihilate All Traces of Chaos"

 

And I think you forgot one very important thing... the Emperor isn't a warp entity, he exerts his will upon the warp, but he is very much alive, just bound by his wracked and heavily injured body... for the Emperor to posses someone like a Daemon is almost impossible... maybe put a shard of himself unto someone or bestow abilities upon them, but full possession is unlikely for someone to do if they are still alive and bound into the mortal realm...

 

As for the candle in the dark and Walkman principle, that's fairly how Templars cancel out Warp powers, except not really... even individual Templars have an indomitable will that could cancel out psychic manifestations that are not too strong, in case of both tabletop rule AND fluff... some individuals like Titus from the Ultramarines can actually negate the touch of the Warp or in the case of Templars, an individual Chaplain can still cancel out the effects of a psychic power through his sheer will alone...

 

This isn't a case of wills gathering together to stop psychic manifestations, this is the case of an individual canceling out psychic powers through the enforcement of his sheer will alone...

[Eddie Orlock]

... I think you forgot one very important thing... the Emperor isn't a warp entity, ...

No, I think I covered that off in my first post in this thread.

... When the Emperor rended his soul to defeat the Horus gambit he created a warp vortex that was more open to such communion. ...

There are actually two entities that comprise the Emperor. The Corpse-God on the golden throne that largely deals in duty and obligation and the Star-Child in the warp that largely deals in mercy and compassion. Relatively ancient writings of The Rick imply that they yearn for each other for each is not truly complete without the other. Possibly the kindest thing you could do for Him-on-Earth would be to pull the plug on the throne, but he won't allow it while he believes we still need him.

 

As for corporeal beings possessing others, it's a standard power of Telethesia Discipline as practiced by members of the Holy Ordos Inquisition. Admittedly, mortal users can only 'Dominate' but briefly, we all know the Emperor is no ordinary man.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

... I think you forgot one very important thing... the Emperor isn't a warp entity, ...

No, I think I covered that off in my first post in this thread.

... When the Emperor rended his soul to defeat the Horus gambit he created a warp vortex that was more open to such communion. ...

There are actually two entities that comprise the Emperor. The Corpse-God on the golden throne that largely deals in duty and obligation and the Star-Child in the warp that largely deals in mercy and compassion. Relatively ancient writings of The Rick imply that they yearn for each other for each is not truly complete without the other. Possibly the kindest thing you could do for Him-on-Earth would be to pull the plug on the throne, but he won't allow it while he believes we still need him.

 

As for corporeal beings possessing others, it's a standard power of Telethesia Discipline as practiced by members of the Holy Ordos Inquisition. Admittedly, mortal users can only 'Dominate' but briefly, we all know the Emperor is no ordinary man.

 

 

You pull the plug on the Golden Throne, and you get a blackout in the Astra Telephatica, an unleashed Void Dragon on Mars and unblocked Daemonic access upon the underground Webway portal to Terra... that's it for the Imperium... gg... The Emperor is literally the only thing holding the breaking pieces of the Imperium together, and despite all the writings, the Star-Child theory has mostly stayed as that... a theory, there is no evidence to the contrary, no other writings about the Sensei no other information about an actual entity that is half the Emperor in the warp... we got to see something similar in AD-Bs The Talon of Horus, but it was an impression of the Emperor and not some Warp entity born from him... more like an actual Astral Projection that can interact with the world around it...

 

As for there being 2 Emperors.... that's still theory based according to members of the Inquisition... or certain cults of the Ecclesiarchy... but there has been no progress to that story by GW at all... just a theory... unlike Yvraine, which is no longer a theory, but an actual entity that has been summoned by the pointy ears...

 

I kinda forgot though that living people have been known to posses others... such as what Ravenor usually does to his Acolytes and associates whenever he needs to direct their actions personally... maybe the Emperor's Champions right of blessing is using that indomitable will of the Templar to block warp powers and use it inward to give the Space Marine abilities that he was not capable of having before... but then again this is all theory...

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think you mean Ynnead? And that wasn't just a theory. That's been a plan in the making at least as far back as third edition.(Codex Craftworlds I believe)

[Eddie Orlock]

 

... Possibly the kindest thing you could do for Him-on-Earth would be to pull the plug on the throne ...

 ... You pull the plug on the Golden Throne, and you get [List of Bad Stuff^TM] ...

 

You'll note that I didn't say that pulling the plug was good for Humanity, just that it'd be merciful to the Emperor.

 

And the Star-Child is a step above mere hypothesis, it dates from an era where the narrator voice was far more reliable. Rick told you how the universe was and that's how it was. They did an interesting job of obscuring the truths to the setting in later years which made its study actually make you feel like you were learning something, but it usually all pans out properly.

 

Now about that list of Bad Stuff^TM.

 

I think you meant to say Astronomicon rather than Astra Telepathica. Though it would be a radical shift in Astropath recruitment likely requiring a substantial shift in the soul-binding ritual. Trouble with the 'light house' is a little tougher to gauge, as we first need to estimate how important the Emperor's 'lensing' effect is and if there isn't some viable work around.

 

I'm inclined to denounce the allegation of a C'Tan on mars as a considerably more specious plot thread than much of what I've prattled on about here. Even if it isn't, what are you claiming the nature of the tie to that and the golden throne is? They're on separate planets. I mean, I guess without the Emperor as incarnation of the Omnissiah there might be a crisis of faith and religious schism in the Mechanicus, but those happen somewhat regularly anyway.

 

More so than any void dragon malarkey, I'm not fond of this whole business about imperial webways and what not. It seemed like lazy writing to answer a question that should've been left vague with a direct tie to an ad-hoc part of the setting. Critic of recent Black Library decisions aside, seems to me that if there was such a warp rift uncovered there's probably enough manpower around to plug it. Meaningful death is known to produce bursts of harnessable warp energies [x-ref sororita martyrdom and space elf death cults], release from the mortal coil of the Corpse-God could give the Star-Child a golden chance to just seal that up. With all the Templars vaunted warp resistance though, a more practical answer might be to just tell Helbrecht that some relic of Sigismund's down there and we'll plug the hole with black and white armoured crusaders. Sorted.

 

Now, about a lack of development on some plot seeds. This seems more like an artifact of changing IP philosophy on the part of GW than anything else. For a long time it wasn't an evolving story, but a static setting. Threads were left exposed and not developed as a service to the community to provide anchors upon which they could base their own stories and projections of event. Lately they've been weaving it tighter with less room to play in unstructured sand-box, but it also means that when the time's right, these stray threads will likely re-appear.