ADB on the new Black Templar fluff

[Acebaur]

Guys let's stay on topic please. This thread isn't about the Emperor and what his existence means for mankind.

[Medjugorje]

why not? Its the ideologic question in this crusade^^

[Ciler]

why not?

Because he's a mod and consequently has a much bigger chainsword than you !

[Acebaur]

why not? Its the ideologic question in this crusade^^

Because it's off topic for this thread and therefore has no place here. If you want to discuss it then create a new thread to do so. Otherwise this thread will just end up locked.

[Ioldanach]

To be honest, I don't mind the retcon that much.

 

The development of the Black Templars in 3rd edition was a clear retcon from the Black Templars that I recall from 2nd edition (back when they were definitely a "Codex" chapter). In the early days of that lore, subsequent to the Armageddon campaign codex, but prior to the Index Astartes article, there were plenty of gamers that thought it very logical for the Black Templars to be of a more religious bent than other chapters (i.e., to be fanatics like the monastic orders from which they take their cue).

 

The Index Astartes article and subsequent dedicated codex retconned a lot and gave us the secular zealots that we came to know. Neither of those made a lot of sense to me. The imagery of the Black Templars, after all, is that of fiery religious zealots; and the hatred of psykers was inconsistent with the reverence for the Emperor (even a non-God Emperor). I had no problem with the Black Templars disdaining librarians (following in the steps of Sigismund and the Council of Nikea). So much of the Imperium's might relies upon psykers, though, that blind hatred of them is just plain stupid. You need navigators and astropaths, at the very least, and the Emperor was (is) a mighty psyker.

 

So the retcon of the Black Templars into religious zealots that don't hate psykers kind of makes sense (I would like to see them eschew librarians without ever considering welcoming them back into their ranks if the Emperor ever provides them, but that's just me). I see the Scouring-era Black Templars as a chapter driven primarily by the personality of their first chapter master/high marshal, Sigismund. When Abaddon eventually slew him, it was inevitable that the chapter would look elsewhere for its inspiration and awe. Also, any control Sigismund may have had in preserving the Imperial Truth probably eroded after his demise. It could have disappeared entirely within a few generations, leading the later Black Templars down the path of worshipping the Emperor as a god. This may clearly have been in contravention of Sigismund's beliefs and wishes, but follows a pattern that can be seen in many real world organizations (even organizations that have existed for only decades or centuries rather than thousands of years like the Black Templars).

 

Similarly, though the earlier codex described the Black Templars as being the most like the Great Crusade era chapters, common sense and even a cursory reading of the Horus Heresy books from Forge World demonstrate that they are no such thing. They may have retained the temperament of Sigismund and the trappings of the Templars of the Imperial Fists Legion, but they have evolved (and devolved) just as much as any other chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. They may have evolved/devolved in ways that are quantitatively and qualitatively different from other chapters, but they have clearly evolved/devolved just as much as any other chapter. And I don't think that's a bad thing. In fact, it is the only outcome that makes any sense - no organization exists for millennia and through numerous personality changes and significant events without changing.

 

These aren't necessarily the changes that I would have wanted, but they make sense to me and I can live with them.

[Brother Tyler]

Hmmm...none of that is surprising, Ioldanach, considering your avatar.

 

I remember the Codex-adherent 2nd edition Black Templars Chapter, too. The Chapter has definitely gone through some drastic changes over the years.

 

Luckily for me, my Black Templars Crusade will be set somewhere between the Scouring and up to right after the death of Sigismund, so I don't have to worry about any of the Emperor as a god nonsense. And whether or not the Black Templars may have had any Librarians at that time, my Crusade won't have any of the witches.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm pretty sure codex: Armageddon came after the index Astartes article. I'd have to check my WD collection, which is at home.

[Kelborn]

Isn't that the great thing about Warhammer 40K?

 

You got about 10K+ years to play with.

 

You're disliking Black Templars worshipping the Emperor as a god? You don't want them to have witches?

 

Well then, go ahead. Nobody is forcing you to go with recent releases. It is our hobby. :)

 

I for one, wanted to create a Crusade in the Dark Imperium setting, including Primaris but based upon 5th edition codex. Everything is possible, these days.

[Kastor Krieg]

You're disliking Black Templars worshipping the Emperor as a god? You don't want them to have witches?

The problem will not be the new codex saying Templars worship or got Libbies back. It will be all the jerks just loving to rub our faces in it.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Brother Tyler
You know better than to uses that kind of language here.

[Marshal Rohr]

My new Crusade is built around the remnants of a Gathering Storm era crusade fleet cut off in the Imperium Nihilus. Their veteran leaders were all pretty much killed during the early years after the cataclysm and the Crusade itself has the barest understanding of the old Templar culture and beliefs. Instead their beliefs have become facsimiles of what they think the old chapter cult was like. There’s also some secret squirrel bits I don’t wanna reveal before the project takes off that might explain why they are secular and why they have Primaris. Edited January 18, 2018 by Marshal Rohr

[Marshal_Roujakis]

The timeline I've chosen for my Crusade is from early 100-200 M41 which is before Helbrecht became High Marshal, but Ludoldus is also no longer the High Marshal, so it would be the unknown timeline of High Marshal Kordhel, up to the current setting to make sense if I'm playing against Primaris or Primarchs or Aeldari in my games... but mainly the setting would revolve around the Dark Imperium era so M41 w/ no Primaris or Primarchs...

 

Also, in my head canon, my Crusade has a mixed bag of Marines who worship the Emperor as a god and those who believe he is just a powerful man... mainly because the older Chaplains and Sword Brothers who have visited the Phalanx have read the "Truth" in the tomes of Dorn and Guilliman aboard the Fists Librarium, but obviously those new to the Chapter believe the intonations, vows and prayers of worship to the Emperor clarifies his divinity... but they are not corrected as their devotion is in the right place, and they will be taught the "Truth" once they have proved themselves worthy of it.

 

As for Psyker worship, from the time of High Marshal Kordhel there was no such thing as any psyker worship in the Chapter, especially since Kordhel himself received permanent scarring from a psyker during one of his earlier campaigns. Librarians were a strict no-no and the Eternal Crusader had an Astropath and a Navigator, but they were never allowed to speak or how their faces directly to the High Marshal... they had a liaison who would relay messages, but their importance was there, it was just that their existence was repulsive to the current High Marshal. When Kordhel was killed, ironically by a rogue psyker (see Codex: Black Templars 4th ed. High Marshal Helbrecht entry, Kordhel was killed by a witch), High Marshal Helbrecht took over unanimously, but he was a devout worshiper of the Imperial Creed, he sees the Emperor's divinity in everything and that fuels his rage and anger over anything that stands against the credence of the Imperial Creed, so that also involves his different views of Astropaths and Navigators who has seen the Emperor in all of his glory so he sees them as divine... so once again, under Helbrecht, things have changed a little bit.

 

But my Crusade has little dealings with the current High Marshal having a little witch-hunt of their own and having witnessed the death of the previous High Marshal and treachery on a really high degree, they have less trust towards others then most Space Marines, so they took no Primaris nor do they risk the taint of psykers, relying instead on unknown pre-Age of Strife technology that even a Lord of Mars can barely understood to travel throughout their subsector, and use relay stations to send messages to the High Marshal.

 

tldr: My Crusade is set in 100 M41 - current setting. The older Sword Brothers know the Imperial Truth, majority of the younger Marines beleive in the Imperial Creed. They don't like psykers, since they witnessed the previous High Marshal get murdered by a rogue psyker. They also don't trust a lot of others, so they didn't take any Primaris, especially since the ones that planned to join them belonged to a different Chapter. The Templar Primaris had to go to the Eternal Crusader first. So, AD-Bs Templars on some and not on others, 

[Kelborn]

 

You're disliking Black Templars worshipping the Emperor as a god? You don't want them to have witches?

 

The problem will not be the new codex saying Templars worship or got Libbies back. It will be all the jerks just loving to rub our faces in it.

Got your point but there are a lot of other factions, which got their faces rubbed in certain memes, etc.

 

Traitor Dark Angels, Wolfy McSpace Wolf, Smurfs, Mecha communists to name a few.

 

Sure, it's disregarding your beloved faction but only if you let that happen, right?

 

I, for one, am a Vlka fan first and foremost and I love both, 30K and 40K incarnations. I just don't care for others, who want to make fun of it.

 

Most favourite successor chapter are the Black Templars, naturally. :)

 

This board is for constructive exchange and feedback AND sharing ideas plus their conviction!

The BT community is one of the most active on the entire board. Great stuff, great discussions, etc. There's absolutely no need for a bad mood, IMHO.

 

But who am I to judge? I'm just a random internet nerd, who doesn't play the game and who is only interested in fluff. ;)

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

You're disliking Black Templars worshipping the Emperor as a god? You don't want them to have witches?

The problem will not be the new codex saying Templars worship or got Libbies back. It will be all the jerks just loving to rub our faces in it.

 

 

I've had a similar issue once, who was actually an employee of GW telling me that we'll now have Librarians and that pretty soon we'd be a Codex compliant Chapter, pretty much just based on the fact that we got rolled... but that was during 5th ed. and we're still none compliant as far as I'm concerned and we're not allowed to take Librarians in any shape or form unless you ally one in from a different Chapter. He pretty much rubbed it in my face that according to 5th ed. C:SM we want Guilliman to be our daddy and that we now beg other Chapters to get psyker powered geneseeds...

 

The times have proved him wrong, AD-Bs Templars is still a viable option for the current armies of Black Templars, you just need to be creative in your fluff enough, and I could actually rub it on his face that it's been 3 editions and I'm still not a Vanilla player... although he's the kind of butt-faced jerk-off that you can't win with in an argument and will always see himself as always right about 40k using his employee badge and privileges as his shield... I never come to his store nowadays unless I really need to buy something I can't get off from another retailer...

[Medjugorje]

I think "NEW GW" will found out that there is much to earn with the black templars. Just look how much topics and replies we have in our subforum in comparison to the dark angels and grey knights (the DA got much love in the last years). They use now market research and will find out a lot of our community.  AND our big love to ADB-Fluff - so maybe the old fluff comes back.

[Kelborn]

Maybe in form of a campaign book with additional rules, fluff, etc.

 

That'd be cool. They did a shrine world crusade. Maybe something like This along Imperial Guard, SoB against something else than DG. ;)

Thousand Sons for The burn the witch feeling?