Post-Codex Loadout and Pairing Options

[Brother Aether]

Good Evening Battle-Brothers,

 

I know that we have a thread about competitive post-Codex Blood Angels, but I wanted to make a thread dedicated to loadout and cool pairing options.

 

I am hearing some general comments from those who have more post-codex game experience than I. In general, the observations that I have made are as follows:

 

1. Red Thirst really juices up the melee viability of all units, not only elite units like SG/VV/DC, but also simple scouts, tacticals, and even devastators

2. The temptation to character spam is real, but can spread your resources thin

3. The temptation to alpha strike ALL THE THINGS is real, but can get you in trouble

4. There are many stratagems, relics, and loadouts that will change how each individual plays – it is by using your best combination of strategy alongside these resources that will ultimately help you as a general

 

To combat the spam and alpha strike issues, I'm thinking about running many of my squads of elites paired with less costly HQ's (Captains, Lieutenants, Chaplains, and Sanguinary Priests) to try and be able to squeeze in more of these squads.

 

Now that I have my hands on a copy of the book, I have been thinking about how to manage some of the issues with character bubble proximity, and points efficiency. With that in mind, I have a few questions with respect to the loadouts I (and, to a broader extend, 'we') should consider for some HQ units, troops options, and some of our elites choices. I am looking to solicit advice (either math-hammer or examples from experience) on how to craft a few lists with respect to weapon/wargear loadouts.

 

In terms of flavor for my army, my thread has some details (as do my updates in the Pile o' Shame thread), but I can provide details as needed; many of the HQs I'm looking at I want to make very mobile, but some loadout advice could be applied to other versions (i.e., if a power axe is better than a power sword for a JP captain, likely the same is true for a JP captain, etc).

 

Note: I really hope someone else hasn't already made this thread post-codex, so apologies if it's been covered and I've missed it (also, if this is the wrong place, happy to have a mod move this)!

 

First Off: For Captains, Lieutenants, and Sanguinary Priests, what tend to be optimal melee weapons (including point values) between Power Fists/Axes/Swords/Mauls/Lightning Claws?

• Logically, a Lightning Claw (or two) wouldn't matter much for a Lieutenant (who re-rolls wounds anyway), but I'm curious about the efficiency of these weapons – specifically without the presence of other characters. For example, while a priest will boost your strength, if there isn't one around, is the extra point for an axe worth it?

 

Second Off: I am predominantly using three types of elites – DC, VV, and Sanguinary Guard.

 

DC (flock of 10–15 JP, with mostly BP/CS but 2 PF and 1–2 Other Power Weapons)

• I have 2 DC with PF/Bolter already modeled from last edition, but what Power Weapons (if any) should I bring along here? Likely planning to run them alongside a Chaplain, Lemartes, or possibly a Priest (for the extra Strength boost) – are any of these HQs particularly effective?

VV (5 with TH/SS or Power Weapon/SS)

• I feel like the durability (based on how affordable SS are) may make these pretty viable, but I'm not sure which Power Weapons and/or HQ or buffer might pair well?

VV (5 with Dual LC)

• Classic meat-grinder of armored opponents. Thinking about taking these guys with a Captain for hit re-rolls, or perhaps a Priest for Strength – thoughts?

SG (4; 2 with Axe, 2 with Sword)

• Pair really well with a warlord, and considering picking up another box of them. When considering how to build them: If I don't pair them with a Sanguinary Priest, is the extra cost of an axe worth it to be wounding T4 on 2+ (I feel like yes, but wanted to get some additional feedback)?

 

Third Off: In order to balance out taking 1–3 pairings of JP Elites with JP HQ's, I want to evaluate some of my footslogger/troop/backfield choices for some 'all takers' style of lists. I have the following available, which brings up several points:

 

Tactical Squads

• What heavy weapons are good for take-all lists? Are ML worth the points (being able to fire either frag or krak), or should you alternate (i.e., 1 squad gets a LC, 1 squad gets a HB)?

Devastators

• Same points as tactical squads, just trying to think about which heavy weapons would be good/passable in an all-takers list.

 

 

 

Thank you all for your time, and if there are any other loadouts you want to ask about, feel free to ask them in the space below. I encourage discussion in the spaces below!

 

 

[Xerxus]

Lemartes is the premier choice for Death Company because of the reroll charge aura. Landing the charge after deepstriking is the difference between winning and losing.

 

If you put too many points into offensive tools for the Vanguard Vets then their storm shields won't matter, most opponents will be able to kill them efficiently with 0 AP shooting.

 

Twin Lightning Claws are problematic for the same reason, investing a lot in offensive output also reduces the unit's relative durability for their cost. Typical Blood Angels armies and units have relatively low durability as is.

 

Encarmine swords are generally better overall since they are cheaper. Against models with T4 and a 3+ save the axe and the sword are exactly equally good.

[Charlo]

Van Vets are a hidden gem for us I think; but they have a very distinct purpose:

 

The Late Game Sweeper;

• Storm Shield
• Hammers

You need to keep them in reserve then when the opponent has a big juicy target available strike them in and use DOA to get them stuck in. Storm shields mean you don't care about that big nasty monsters attacks and S8 Hammers means you are probably wounding most things on a 3+ at worst. These are 1W Terminators that get into combat easier and benefit from our Jump Pack Synergy.

 

Just don't let your opponent shoot at them with low S low AP weapons as then they are just killing your expensive marines.

[Karhedron]

A Libby with Jump Pack, Force Axe and the Angel's Wing relic looks fun. Take Quickening and/or Wings and Deep Strike him. Quickening Boosts his charge range and attacks while Wings also lets him jump over screening units and/or get closer to targets. Angel's Wing allows him to reroll charges and ignore overwatch. Axe + Red Thirst means he wounds MEQs on a 2+ and even the biggest stuff in the game on a 4+ without any further support and does D3 wounds against bigger targets. He is not too expensive but functions like a mini-guided psychic missile.

 

If you are facing a unit with fearsome overwatch like Wraithguard with D-scythes, you can use him alongside other CC units to negate the Overwatch before the other units charge in. This guy is fun and flexible and can create havoc in your opponent's back field.

[Charlo]

Yeah been thinking about that build a lot. Especially for the disruption on overwatch.

 

He'll be great at slaying other commanders for sure.

[Karhedron]

Devastators

• Same points as tactical squads, just trying to think about which heavy weapons would be good/passable in an all-takers list.

It depends what else you have in your list. IMHO efficient tank-busting is vital in 8th edition. It is no good throwing down a 15-man DC with DoA and Lemartes if your targets are waiting for you in metal bawkses. Look at the demo game that was played between BAs and World Eaters. The BAs charged and then the WEs counter-charged and ate them for breakfast (probably made a change from Khorne-flakes ). For this reason, I think that Lascannons are a good default choice as the Imperium's most ubiquitous anti-tank weapon.

 

If you are playing a very mobile army, Grav Cannons can also do good work as they are actually better against tanks than lascannons and better against infantry than heavy bolters. The downside is price and range.

[Brother Aether]

Really happy to wake up to many responses – thank you all!

 

 

Lemartes is the premier choice for Death Company because of the reroll charge aura. Landing the charge after deepstriking is the difference between winning and losing.

 

If you put too many points into offensive tools for the Vanguard Vets then their storm shields won't matter, most opponents will be able to kill them efficiently with 0 AP shooting.

 

Twin Lightning Claws are problematic for the same reason, investing a lot in offensive output also reduces the unit's relative durability for their cost. Typical Blood Angels armies and units have relatively low durability as is.

 

Encarmine swords are generally better overall since they are cheaper. Against models with T4 and a 3+ save the axe and the sword are exactly equally good.

 

My thoughts on Lemartes are that he serves a great purpose for this, as well as being affordable and on the cheaper end of our mobile HQs.

 

With Respect To (WRT) Dual LC: That makes total sense. Would mixing in some storm shields help for LC delivery (maybe a few with either PS/SS or Single LC/SS), or are LC over-costed at present? Would it possibly make more sense if there were more small units around to distract from the shooting here?

 

WRT Swords: So the extra AP basically makes up for the lower S – thanks! Would this be something worth changing to Axes if the local meta had more T5 opponents (such as DG)?

 

 

<snip>

 

You need to keep them in reserve then when the opponent has a big juicy target available strike them in and use DOA to get them stuck in. Storm shields mean you don't care about that big nasty monsters attacks and S8 Hammers means you are probably wounding most things on a 3+ at worst. These are 1W Terminators that get into combat easier and benefit from our Jump Pack Synergy.

 

This was my thought on using these – I do not have any assault terminators, and with our strong synergies with JP and mobility, I figured that this might help things out quite a bit. I'll be sure to avoid massed shooting as best as possible.

 

A Libby with Jump Pack, Force Axe and the Angel's Wing relic looks fun.

 

<snip>

 

I remembered seeing this post (perhaps it was yours, Karhedronuk, now that I think of it) – luckily, I painted up a magnetized Librarian w/ Force Axe for RTS! Can't wait to try this out as you mentioned.

 

 

Devastators

• Same points as tactical squads, just trying to think about which heavy weapons would be good/passable in an all-takers list.

It depends what else you have in your list. IMHO efficient tank-busting is vital in 8th edition. It is no good throwing down a 15-man DC with DoA and Lemartes if your targets are waiting for you in metal bawkses. Look at the demo game that was played between BAs and World Eaters. The BAs charged and then the WEs counter-charged and ate them for breakfast (probably made a change from Khorne-flakes ). For this reason, I think that Lascannons are a good default choice as the Imperium's most ubiquitous anti-tank weapon.

If you are playing a very mobile army, Grav Cannons can also do good work as they are actually better against tanks than lascannons and better against infantry than heavy bolters. The downside is price and range.

 

 

The vast majority of my modeled 'Devs' are actually 2nd Edition tac marines (I have 4 ML, 1 LC, 2 PC, 2 HB modeled). With that in mind, should I pop around looking for some used LC marines, or would some ML or PC help do the job in the interrim? I also have a tri-las Predator, and technically I started collecting Guard shortly before I started my BA army back in 3rd Edition (friends pressured me into collecting guard, ended up shelving them in favor of red power armor ) – I could also 'soup' it up, but I would really prefer to keep things strictly BA unless necessary to mix in some AM.

[Subsided]

I will be following this thread. I played two post codex games vs Custodes and lost them both worse than I have ever lost in 8th (my Index Flesh Tearers have never lost and I feel would have done better vs the Custodes than trying new things)

 

Anyway. Game 1 had 12 SG (2 units) and a relic banner Ancient. The SG got in, did some minor damage, died on my turn.

 

Game two had Lem, TH/HoB/SS Captain, 30 (4 TH, 2 Axe total) DC. They also lost most of them on my turn. 2+ saves on T5 3W models was just too much. Even with Red Thirst and tons of attacks.

 

I know you fight what you can beat but when there is nothing on the table but 12 Custodes a land raider.. well.. There's not a lot that isn't 2+/3++/6+++ out there. Not to mention the 2 Dreads and Celestine, 3 assassins getting to the backline turn 1. (Did I mention he always has the +1 to go first with like.. 8 drops? Denies Slay the Warlord with Celestine unless you blast at her ALL game)

 

I don't think any list I can come up with can beat that army that doesn't have like 4+ Libs smiting them down first. They are rolling out 4 Las cannons that hit on 2 with PotMS for anything I have that shoots at them (his dice were on FIRE. He passed nearly every single las shot)

 

I know it's not an accurate assumption to base our codex vs Custodes. From what I hear any army that doesn't smite has issues with them. Even small arms fire didn't work since they are all T5. But nothing our codex did really helped fight them either. 

 

The number of charges I failed were also too high. Even WITH rerolls. Myself I'd rather drop all the packs and move up 2-3 Rhinos. I hate losing games due to dice chance and not purely bad plays. I feel I have to eliminate all instance of "chance" and go pure strategy. (My Tyranids have been undefeated with this mindset)

Edited December 11, 2017 by Subsided

[Karhedron]

The vast majority of my modeled 'Devs' are actually 2nd Edition tac marines (I have 4 ML, 1 LC, 2 PC, 2 HB modeled). With that in mind, should I pop around looking for some used LC marines, or would some ML or PC help do the job in the interrim? I also have a tri-las Predator, and technically I started collecting Guard shortly before I started my BA army back in 3rd Edition (friends pressured me into collecting guard, ended up shelving them in favor of red power armor ) – I could also 'soup' it up, but I would really prefer to keep things strictly BA unless necessary to mix in some AM.

MLs may work OK. Personally I find they tend to be a bit disappointing as I usually think I would prefer the extra point of AP over the option to frag chaff infantry. But it is easy enough to try them out and see how they play before deciding whether you want to switch. They cost the same so you can try them out and just swap them for LCs with no disruption if you feel it is needed. Plasma Cannons are fun but your really need to be overcharging them to get your points worth out of them. This in turn means you need a Captain nearby to reroll 1s or your plasma troops will be almost as big a risk to themselves as to the enemy. I feel Plasma Cannons work better with Dark Angels or Space Wolves, both of whom can get rerolls of 1s without an HQ character nearby to hold their hands.

 

As for Guard, I hate to admit it but I think they can potentially bring a lot to the BAs. Cheap heavy weapon squads and chaff of our own to stop enemy deep strikers messing with our backfield units. A Battalion can be had for around 200 points if you keep it lean which is 3 more CPs to the total. Tempestus Scions are also quite nice as you can drop Plasma squads on Grav chutes alongside our own Deep Strikers to soften up the enemy before the BAs charge. This is actually quite fluffy now since Dante has been made Warden of the Dark Imperium which places him in de-facto command of a lot of Imperial units.

[Brother Aether]

I will be following this thread.

 

<snip>

 

I hate losing games due to dice chance and not purely bad plays. I feel I have to eliminate all instance of "chance" and go pure strategy. (My Tyranids have been undefeated with this mindset)

 

I'm glad that the idea for the thread is helpful, Subsided. I know that if we can collectively share our loadout experiences in a single thread, we might be able to help each other generate cool combo ideas, and think about how to balance our forces to be able to better handle our current situation – and I think that thinking about how to optimize the 'strategy' while minimizing any dice chance issues can be a major way to help this.

 

MLs may work OK. Personally I find they tend to be a bit disappointing as I usually think I would prefer the extra point of AP over the option to frag chaff infantry. But it is easy enough to try them out and see how they play before deciding whether you want to switch. They cost the same so you can try them out and just swap them for LCs with no disruption if you feel it is needed. Plasma Cannons are fun but your really need to be overcharging them to get your points worth out of them. This in turn means you need a Captain nearby to reroll 1s or your plasma troops will be almost as big a risk to themselves as to the enemy. I feel Plasma Cannons work better with Dark Angels or Space Wolves, both of whom can get rerolls of 1s without an HQ character nearby to hold their hands.

 

Really good point about plasma cannons (I'm a bit sad because I love plasma, and apparently 'chose the wrong color angels' ). I will be sure to report back if I end up using them; I think I'll run a footslogging Dev group and tri-las pred with a low point cost captain (possibly with a lieutenant) nearby, and potentially a librarian dreadnought to split anti-tank fire, so I think that might serve as a helpful firebase (although I have yet to evaluate my points here).

 

As for Guard, I hate to admit it but I think they can potentially bring a lot to the BAs. Cheap heavy weapon squads and chaff of our own to stop enemy deep strikers messing with our backfield units. A Battalion can be had for around 200 points if you keep it lean which is 3 more CPs to the total. Tempestus Scions are also quite nice as you can drop Plasma squads on Grav chutes alongside our own Deep Strikers to soften up the enemy before the BAs charge. This is actually quite fluffy now since Dante has been made Warden of the Dark Imperium which places him in de-facto command of a lot of Imperial units.

 

 

I have a trio of lascannon teams, as well as four mortars and three heavy bolter/autocannon (converted) teams, so really that could drastically alter the composition of that 200–400 pt cluster ... not sure if I want to sell my soul to the soup machine or not. I do appreciate that the fluff, at least, helps justify bringing along a bit of Guard, as it would make those models see the table a bit more, alongside potentially helping balance some of the lack-of-lascannon model issues I have at this time.

[Aothaine]

I will be following this thread. I played two post codex games vs Custodes and lost them both worse than I have ever lost in 8th (my Index Flesh Tearers have never lost and I feel would have done better vs the Custodes than trying new things)

 

Anyway. Game 1 had 12 SG (2 units) and a relic banner Ancient. The SG got in, did some minor damage, died on my turn.

 

Game two had Lem, TH/HoB/SS Captain, 30 (4 TH, 2 Axe total) DC. They also lost most of them on my turn. 2+ saves on T5 3W models was just too much. Even with Red Thirst and tons of attacks.

 

I know you fight what you can beat but when there is nothing on the table but 12 Custodes a land raider.. well.. There's not a lot that isn't 2+/3++/6+++ out there. Not to mention the 2 Dreads and Celestine, 3 assassins getting to the backline turn 1. (Did I mention he always has the +1 to go first with like.. 8 drops? Denies Slay the Warlord with Celestine unless you blast at her ALL game)

 

I don't think any list I can come up with can beat that army that doesn't have like 4+ Libs smiting them down first. They are rolling out 4 Las cannons that hit on 2 with PotMS for anything I have that shoots at them (his dice were on FIRE. He passed nearly every single las shot)

 

I know it's not an accurate assumption to base our codex vs Custodes. From what I hear any army that doesn't smite has issues with them. Even small arms fire didn't work since they are all T5. But nothing our codex did really helped fight them either. 

 

The number of charges I failed were also too high. Even WITH rerolls. Myself I'd rather drop all the packs and move up 2-3 Rhinos. I hate losing games due to dice chance and not purely bad plays. I feel I have to eliminate all instance of "chance" and go pure strategy. (My Tyranids have been undefeated with this mindset)

 

In this instance you play the victory point game. If hey really only had two units on the board you just play like Eldar against him and run for cover and victory points. 

 

I think Custodes are the sleeper army though. A lot of people are going to be surprised at how good they actually are. Even without psychers as they can just take the wierd sisters and cause all sorts of problems for people with psychers.

[Subsided]

He runs 2 of the -2 Psychic power assassins. 

 

And it's hard to play the VP game. I tried both time with packs. He has +1 to go first from lack of units so he gets First Blood. Celestine is nearly 15+ wounds (you have to kill her a second time to get Slay the Warlord) so that is denied. Celestine(24" fly speed before charging)/Assassins get in the back lines to hold back the guns while the Custodes/Dreads move into place.

 

It's not as easy as it should be to beat them with VP hah. They are sleeper for sure. But Their stats/weapons for points in the 40's is CRAZY good. Put my SG 35 points to shame.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Subsided

[Panzer]

Sounds like he is using a pretty min-maxed list (not completely but still a lot of powerful units) against someone who's new. That's really not cool and borders on "That Guy" behaviour. Ask him to tone down his list since you aren't that good yet and don't have such a competetive unit collection or simply search for someone else to play with if he refuses to be nice.

[Subsided]

I'm not new at all. I liked the challenge. I just feel our normal codex could never beat that.

 

I've won nearly every game I've played prior to our codex dropping and trying new things (I was doing Rhino Flesh Tearers to great success). I honestly feel Seth could have really done much better than 10+ SG/DC alone.

 

I'm just saying that army was REALLY tough for our "go-to" BA units (SG/DC).

 

I guess you could say I am new as in I was using test lists to try our units vs his list which has only had very minor changes here and there since 8th game out. But we randomly roll for who we're playing in my group and that's just how it came out. :)

[Panzer]

I'm not new at all. I liked the challenge. I just feel our normal codex could never beat that.

 

I've won nearly every game I've played prior to our codex dropping and trying new things (I was doing Rhino Flesh Tearers to great success). I honestly feel Seth could have really done much better than 10+ SG/DC alone.

 

I'm just saying that army was REALLY tough for our "go-to" BA units (SG/DC).

 

I guess you could say I am new as in I was using test lists to try our units vs his list which has only had very minor changes here and there since 8th game out. But we randomly roll for who we're playing in my group and that's just how it came out.

To be fair he's not using a single Codex either. He's using a combination of very potent units with the Imperial keyword. You could use Knights and Assassins just as well as he does.

So you aren't new but it doesn't change the fact that he's using a rather competetive list against you who is still figuring out how to play with our Codex. The outcome is the same.

[Charlo]

Saw some ideas for MSU using assault squads.

 

I feel like a few jump squads with special weapons are cheap as chips, mobile and a bit killy...

[Aothaine]

I'm with sf Panzer here. Seems like that guy's list is pretty tooled in. Drop in Girly man and a contingent of 30 Helblasters in your back line with a cheap hq and an apothecary or two then take the death company for your assaulty bits and win.

 

You can bring lists that will destroy your opponents if you want to be competitive and almost always win. Something like what is below here will do the trick.

 

Flesh Tearer's Detachment

 

HQ Gabriel Seth

HQ Sanguinary Priest

 

ELITE Death Company (9-man) Bolters & Chainswords x7 + Bolters & Power Fist x2

- Rhino

ELITE Death Company (9-man) Bolters & Chainswords x7 + Bolters & Power Fist x2

- Rhino

ELITE Veteran Vanguard (5-man) Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x10

 

Ultra Marines Detatchment

 

HQ Librarian

 

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) Plasma Incinerator x10

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) Plasma Incinerator x10

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) Plasma Incinerator x10

 

LOW - Roboute Guilliman

 

It is mixing it up a bit but Guilliman buffing 30 Hellblasters is horrifying. Not sure about the points but you might have to cut back on some of the hellblasters to make it in 2k points. But what I'm trying to point out here is if you really want to win you need to build your army to lists and taylor those lists to make advantage of all the rules you can. This can get a LOT worse as well. Having a back line of Dark Angels Hellblasters would be better than Guilliman I feel. You could also swap out two Hellblaster units for three Preadators with Quad-lascannons as the Dark Angels can only make use of the super plasma stratagem once a turn. But then drop in anyone that allows you to reroll all misses and your gold.

 

Mixing lists is how you win competitively these days with Imperium imho. It is fluffy and incredibly powerful... but looks like poop on the board and makes your opponent feel like quitting. 

[Subsided]

I'm with sf Panzer here. Seems like that guy's list is pretty tooled in. Drop in Girly man and a contingent of 30 Helblasters in your back line with a cheap hq and an apothecary or two then take the death company for your assaulty bits and win.

 

You can bring lists that will destroy your opponents if you want to be competitive and almost always win. Something like what is below here will do the trick.

 

Flesh Tearer's Detachment

 

HQ Gabriel Seth

HQ Sanguinary Priest

 

ELITE Death Company (9-man) Bolters & Chainswords x7 + Bolters & Power Fist x2

- Rhino

ELITE Death Company (9-man) Bolters & Chainswords x7 + Bolters & Power Fist x2

- Rhino

ELITE Veteran Vanguard (5-man) Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield x10

 

Ultra Marines Detatchment

 

HQ Librarian

 

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) Plasma Incinerator x10

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) Plasma Incinerator x10

HEAVY SUPPORT Hellblasters (10-man) Plasma Incinerator x10

 

LOW - Roboute Guilliman

 

It is mixing it up a bit but Guilliman buffing 30 Hellblasters is horrifying. Not sure about the points but you might have to cut back on some of the hellblasters to make it in 2k points. But what I'm trying to point out here is if you really want to win you need to build your army to lists and taylor those lists to make advantage of all the rules you can. This can get a LOT worse as well. Having a back line of Dark Angels Hellblasters would be better than Guilliman I feel. You could also swap out two Hellblaster units for three Preadators with Quad-lascannons as the Dark Angels can only make use of the super plasma stratagem once a turn. But then drop in anyone that allows you to reroll all misses and your gold.

 

Mixing lists is how you win competitively these days with Imperium imho. It is fluffy and incredibly powerful... but looks like poop on the board and makes your opponent feel like quitting. 

Hah ya it looks great on paper for sure. I mix lists enough with my Nids and feel bad for it. I should prob stick to just BA for my Marines (although I have been eyeballing Salamanders for the longest and have spare marin bodies I could paint green..) :P

 

Man 5 (or is that x10 at the end?) Van vets with SS/TH.. Are they cost effective? Have you used them before? I def need more hammers bit wise to pull that one off but it looks terrifying. I feel having 1W hurts. If we have some form of Primaris with 2W that can do that they'd be nutty.

[Brother Aether]

Hi all,

 

I have a few ideas for bringing a JP Captain as a Warlord, and I am curious what you all think and how reasonable you think these ideas are. For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to compare some of these stats to Dante (as he is the character of the week – awesome idea, Jolemai!) but please make sure to (1) check my math, and (2) double-check any claims I make below. Without further delay:

1. Captain w/ TH/SS – If you went a step further and took Hammer of Baal, he's crazy efficient (negating the -1 to hit from typical TH and giving 97% accuracy taking into account his re-roll, according to some sources) and hitting with awesome strength and AP. I'm really excited to try this loadout (assaulting fliers and big armor/monsters). Absolutely beastly with Red Thirst, even better with Black Rage.
2. Captain w/ Single LC/SS – I call this the 'accuracy' man: Reroll hit rolls of 1's (same accuracy as above) based on already hitting on 2+, and a single LC gives you re-rolls of wounds. While he won't put up incredible numbers against monsters, he'd be good for clearing many opponents with AP -2, and I think the additional points upgrading a PS to a LC for the rerolls with the AP tradeoff could be well worth it, given his SS survivability making those points go a bit further.
3. Captain w/ Power Axe/SS – Leveraging the Red Thirst here, for an additional point over a PS you will wound T4 on a 2+.
4. Captain w/ Power Sword/SS – Budget option with better AP; I think the additional pts for single LC could be better.
5. Captain w/ Relic Blade – The additional Strength and AP mirrors Dante here; essentially a knock-off Dante that has the option for greater survivability (with the Warlord Trait and Stratagem listed below). Weapon profile is identical to The Axe Mortalis.

Predominantly, I am considering using Gift of Foresight (Warlord Trait) in addition to the 1 CP Death Visions of Sanguinius (Stratagem) to give a 5+++ rerolling 1s, and Black Rage for the extra attack on the charge. I feel like (i.e., do not have any play experience but would surmise from my reading the codex) that in combination with a Storm Shield, this can make for a pretty hearty and survivable warlord.

 

If I'm not mistaken with my math (which is a big 'if' so please check me on this):

With this Captain, you have a 4/6 (66%) chance to save anything thrown at you with the SS, followed by a subsequent 2/6 (33%) chance to feel no pain (rerolling 1s). I think that overall, this gives a [2/6 + (1/3 * 14/36)] = [.66 + (.33 * .389)] = 78.8% chance to avoid damage from anything that does not bypass invuln saves, which isn't great, but I believe is better odds of survivability than Dante for anything AP -1 or better.

 

If not using the stratagem, the survivability of the Captain with SS and the 6+++ (rerolling 1s) should work out to be 72% if I'm doing the math right ([.66 + (.33 * .19]) – Still better vs. AP -1 or greater than Dante.

 

 

For Dante (with anything AP -1) you have a 3+ to take, which is the flat 66% chance to avoid taking damage, with no subsequent FNP.

 

While several of the captain options aren't as much of a beatstick as Dante is, they could be considered the poor-man's Dante in terms of having a warlord that provides  re-rolls (just on 1's, but it's something), JP mobility, and can dish out some damage (fewer attacks, but if armed with the Hammer of Baal that could potentially deal more damage to heavy armor).

 

Comparing Dante to This Captain, Dante Has:

+2 attacks (+1 if comparing to Black Rage charging Captain)

-1 Ld Aura to Opponent

+1 Wound

Hitting at S6

Rerolling All Misses Aura

Better base save of 2+

 

Whereas the Captain has:

Greater Survivability against AP -1 or better with the right Warlord Trait/Wargear/Stratagem

Greater Weapon Customizability

Greater ability to damage armor/MC (with TH) or Power Armored Targets (with rerolling wounds from LC)

Analogous Weaponry (with Relic Blade) and cheaper, with a tradeoff for worse auras, fewer attacks.

 

What are your thoughts on this, everyone? I'm curious to see if anyone has run non-named Captains as their warlord with anything resembling these loadouts.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Brother Aether

[Charlo]

Big fan of the captain build you said, especially with the hammer.

 

Quite possibly the most consistently killy HQs in the game....!

[Brother Aether]

Big fan of the captain build you said, especially with the hammer.

 

Quite possibly the most consistently killy HQs in the game....!

 

Glad you like it, Charlo! One of the 'traps' I think that we fall into (as I mentioned early in this thread) is not utilizing some of the base HQ units in favor of the shiny named ones. I think the affordability-meets-survivability of these captains might help swing a few games for us. He won't live forever, but a 3++/5+++ rerolling 1s (if you choose to stratagem) and 5 attacks on the charge with the relic TH could make a big splash, if strategically positioned and used.