Assault Marines: a revelation!

[9x19 Parabellum]

So, given that our new 'Dex is Command Point greedy...

...

and given that the best way to push Command Points is a brigade...

...

and given that a a Brigade requires 3 Fast Attack Slots

...

and given that many of us have Assault Marines left over from previous editions...

...

the question was, how to make them work?

 

The common opinion seems to be they are too expensive with jump packs, and Vanguard Vets do everything they cannot.

 

So I thought, what about just putting them on foot?

The humble 13 point Assault Marine, armed with nothing a bolt pistol, chainsword, and his enduring love for Sanguinius.

 

To make a brigade, I'm putting 2 units of 5 together, no special guns, giving the sergeants each a power weapon (sword or axe), and sticking them in a rhino. Drive towards nearest enemy.

 

As my Troop response to this, given the way I'm going to be using them, that frees up my Tac Squads to just sit around as my rearfield objective grabbers and deepstrike blockers.   Scouts and Assault Marines go forward as wave 1 assaulters, hoping to clear a path for SGuard and Death Company (wave 2).

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

I guess the only real debate is Rhino cost/benefits vs JP cost/benefits?

[9x19 Parabellum]

As an addendum to this, here's what I have in mind for a 2k list

 

HQs:

Captain with jump pack, thammer, stshield (death visions stratagem and artisan of war trait)

Corbulo

Mephiston

 

Troops:

5 scouts (1 power sword)

5 scouts (1 power sword)

5 naked tacs

5 naked tacs

5 naked tacs

5 naked tacs

 

Elites:

8 DC on foot (3 power swords)

6 Sanguinary Guard (enc swords, ang bolters)

1 Sanguinary Ancient (enc sword, ang bolter)

 

Fast Attack:

5 Assault Marines (1 power sword)

5 Assault Marines (1 power sword)

1 Attack Boke (heavy bolter)

 

Heavy Support:

5 Devs (4x plasma cannon, 1 arm cher)

1 Whirlwind (vengance)

1 Quad Las Predator (stormbolter)

 

Dedicated Transport:

2 Rhinos

 

Rhinos get loaded up with 2x scouts and 2x assault marines (or possibly the DC with Corbs and Mephi), depending on what I'm up against and put pressure on turn 1.  If the DC are left out of Rhino, they can foot power it up with Forlorn Fury.  4 units of tacs hang around firebase to stop deepstrikers and snag objectives.  Captain babysits shooting base for 1st couple turns...until the golden host decides it's time to land at which point he moves up to support them using Upon Wings of Fire.

[Aothaine]

You're going to have issues with the more competitive lists but it looks like a fun list to play. 

 

If you're going quad-lascannon preds it is better to try and grab three of them. I know this is a lot of points but these machines do leg work on the table.

[9x19 Parabellum]

I guess the only real debate is Rhino cost/benefits vs JP cost/benefits?

 

Right.  So, in my list (above), I actually have 3 possible payloads for the 2 rhinos;

a )  The 2x5 scouts

b )  The 2x5 assault

c )  The DC with Mephi and/or Corbs

 

It's important to understand I didn't see the rhinos as much as a specific dedicated transport for them (the assault marines), though it may end up being just that, as I did a pair of all purpose rides for whoever needed them. A Rhino comes in at 70 whereas 10 jump packs come in at 30. Each have their uses, of course, though a Rhino has the benefit of moving LOS blocker, an extra unit for scoring, and can load/unload other models depending on the flow of the battle at later stages (if it lives).

 

Another way to look at is "can you find a use for a 13 pt. tac marine armed with a chainsword instead of a boltgun?" I think our chapter tactic is the best out of any Space marine chapter to try to make use of the Assault Marine.

 

Then again, if you have 9 inceptors, feel free to ignore this thread :-)

Edited December 12, 2017 by 9x19 Parabellum

[9x19 Parabellum]

You're going to have issues with the more competitive lists but it looks like a fun list to play. 

 

If you're going quad-lascannon preds it is better to try and grab three of them. I know this is a lot of points but these machines do leg work on the table.

 

I assume you mean for the Kill Shot stratagem?  They are just so expensive to leverage a stratagem that only affects monsters and vehicles.  Anyway, let's try to keep it on topic.

 

How would you fill out a brigade for BA's with your fast attack slots then?

And/or, do you think it's even necessary? (a brigade)

Edited December 12, 2017 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Captain_Krash]

Bikes of Marine/Scout/assault varieties are a decent option cheap wise. I'm all for Assault Marines due to the coolness model wise factor but there sadly not that great GW needs to make Assault marines great again.

 

I do also believe that a Brigade is a good idea due to lack of CP for all Marine armies so to strive to do that is great considering our Stratagems are really good IMO. 

 

Krash

Edited December 12, 2017 by Captain_Krash

[Xenith]

People take tacs for a plasma and combi plasma. ASM do it better.

 

5 assault marines, 2 plasma guns,rhino/razor.

[Cap'm Heckus]

2 x5 Man squads in 1 Rhino is 4 plasma and 2 combi-plasma. Pop out. Burn something down with 6-12 plasma shots and then charge 2 separate targets.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I think that bringing a brigade requires to much tax in the form of required units at the expense of optimisation. I plan on fielding a battalion and and a vanguard detachment. I'll be taking the veritas vitae relic to hopefully win back a couple of cp over the duration of the game. I think the brigade is more suited to armies that can spam cheap troops like AM. I just had a thought while typing this out, a double battalion list might be good, you'd still need six troops, but wouldn't necessaliy need a required number of fa/he options, and then put things like sg, dc and any support characters in a vanguard. Doing it this way would mean you'd only net two less cp than the brigade. It would mean that you would require more hqs however, which could be used to buff our elite units, but on the other hand could be considered a tax in and of its self. I dunno I'll think more about it today and maybe come back to it tonite after work.

[Karhedron]

People take tacs for a plasma and combi plasma. ASM do it better.

 

5 assault marines, 2 plasma guns,rhino/razor.

Tacs are Troops which are normally better for CP farming and have ObjSec. In the specific case of filling a Brigade though, I agree that the plasma build has mileage. I haven't picked up the Codex yet as I have to wait and see if Father Christmas thinks I have been a good boy this year. Can ASM sergeants take combi-plas or plasma pistols?

[The Unseen]

Or you could pay 2 pts more per model and get company vets if your going with 5 man squads.

Take all the plasma you want, gain the bodyguard rule, and an extra attack each.

 

I'd fill a brigade up with Tarantulas long before I'd take assault marines, but they at least have a use if your doing that.

[Aothaine]

 

How would you fill out a brigade for BA's with your fast attack slots then?

And/or, do you think it's even necessary? (a brigade)

 

 

I think trying to force a brigade into 2000 points severely weakens the list with any space marine force right now. The exception to this might be to use mostly scouts?

 

HQ - Libby w. axe and relic jump pack (goes in with the Van Vets)

HQ - Captain in Gravis to baby sit the whirlwinds

HQ - Lieutenant to baby sit the whirlwinds

 

ELITE - Van Vet (5-man) TH&SSx5      x2

ELITE - Dreadnought (Lascannon & CCW)

 

TROOP - Scout (5-man) with bolter & Heavy Bolter x6 in Land Speeder Storms with Heavy Bolters

 

FAST ATTACK - Scout biker squads (6-man) x2 (powersword & all botlers) 

FAST ATTACK - Land Speeders Squads (3-man) Heavy Bolterx2 (use these to us the auto-hit stratagem with the whirlwinds against a really important target.)

 

HEAVY SUPPORT - Whirlwind x3

 

Not sure about the points but this is kind of what I would work towards if I had to have a brigade.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Aothaine

[Brother Aether]

 

People take tacs for a plasma and combi plasma. ASM do it better.

 

5 assault marines, 2 plasma guns,rhino/razor.

Tacs are Troops which are normally better for CP farming and have ObjSec. In the specific case of filling a Brigade though, I agree that the plasma build has mileage. I haven't picked up the Codex yet as I have to wait and see if Father Christmas thinks I have been a good boy this year. Can ASM sergeants take combi-plas or plasma pistols?

 

 

Plasma Pistols yes; combi I don't think so.

[Indefragable]

I’ve been debating 3x Heavy bolter Razorbacks with 5x ASM packing 2x Melta, a melta bomb and maybe a power axe in the Sgt.

 

Idea is:

 

1. Rbacks provide valuable LoS blocking (never underestimate that in an assault army)

 

2. Heavy Bolters can reach out and mess up screening units (Scouts, speed bumps, etc...) cheaper and at further range than TLAC

 

3. It’s a nice little self-contained package: Rbacks deal with infantry and can eat overwatch, while the ASM hop out 9” and melt things, but with Red Thirst chainswords can take down chaff units if necessary. More importantly, all of it eats Overwatxh for sexier ANGRIER units

 

4. Melta ASM are a threat an enemy has to account for. This draws fire to the usually not-priority HB Rbacks...in a great way! That keeps your Killshot-packing Predators alive longer.

[Brother Aether]

 

<snip>

4. Melta ASM are a threat an enemy has to account for. This draws fire to the usually not-priority HB Rbacks...in a great way! That keeps your Killshot-packing Predators alive longer.

 

I firmly believe that this right here is where a lot of the power lies; getting moderately cheap units that could be a threat on their own, but can also work as a smokescreen for your other units. Either way, you 'win' so to speak.

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

<snip>

4. Melta ASM are a threat an enemy has to account for. This draws fire to the usually not-priority HB Rbacks...in a great way! That keeps your Killshot-packing Predators alive longer.

I firmly believe that this right here is where a lot of the power lies; getting moderately cheap units that could be a threat on their own, but can also work as a smokescreen for your other units. Either way, you 'win' so to speak.

I once asked one of the best players I know what he puts in his list to support the big scary death star bomb. He said the trick is that the rest of list should be able to win a match regardless of the performance of the bomb unit.

 

Advice I pretend I’ve taken to heart to this day.

[Aothaine]

 

I once asked one of the best players I know what he puts in his list to support the big scary death star bomb. He said the trick is that the rest of list should be able to win a match regardless of the performance of the bomb unit.

 

Advice I pretend I’ve taken to heart to this day.

 

 

It is good advice. It is hard to win with a list that has only one threat. You want your opponent to look at your force and have so many alpha targets that you over-whelm their ability to deal with it all. In theory at least.

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

I once asked one of the best players I know what he puts in his list to support the big scary death star bomb. He said the trick is that the rest of list should be able to win a match regardless of the performance of the bomb unit.

 

Advice I pretend I’ve taken to heart to this day.

 

It is good advice. It is hard to win with a list that has only one threat. You want your opponent to look at your force and have so many alpha targets that you over-whelm their ability to deal with it all. In theory at least.

True...but tohis point I think it’s more about winning games with the “regular” units as much as possible. Even in the depths of the Decurion-rich 7th Ed, his most impactful units were 9-man strong Tactical Marines in a CAD. Melta, combi-Melta, Vet Sgt with Powerfist using Imperial Fist CT. Amazingly versatile unit that did most of the work in his army. Ignore at your own peril.

 

The idea with the ASM in “not scary” HB Rbacks is an attempt to capture somewhat of the same idea.

[Charlo]

This thread is basically the list I posted earlier Edited December 12, 2017 by Charlo

[tkni]

I *really* like playing jump pack lists, so I don't really have much experience running assault marines on foot. I'd possibly point out intercessors, transport issues aside, put out the same number of attacks as a 5-man vanilla ASM with double the survivability for only 25 points more now.

 

I'd echo the thoughts about special weapons and threat saturation - I've run two different jump pack loadouts so far in 8th, with moderate success:

 

2x flamers and dual lightning claws, deployed on the board and moving up to harass weak targets or to babysit a gun line.

2x meltaguns and power fist / thunder hammer, deep striking to threaten armoured targets.

 

Both might be a little over equipped but they're usually an immediate, moderate threat. Anything that's dealing with them isn't shooting at a 300+ point elite unit. If they get a charge off, great - that's more return fire tied up. And if they survive at all into turn 2, they can fall back and shoot, or take the overwatch for a heavy hitter moving up or deep-striking in.

 

I'd rather take plasma on company vets - killed a lot of stuff with Dante accompanied by 2 units of 5 jump pack vets with 2 plasma gun / chainswords, 2 storm bolter / chainsword, and a combi-plasma / axe sergeant the other day (still lost that game, fwiw).

 

If I were trying to fill out a brigade, I'd probably still look to FW tarantulas first, though with the changes in points to assault cannons they no longer come to a nice round points total and that really bugs me for some reason.

[hhhdan]

i'd just take scout bikes if i really wanted a blood angel brigade 

[Syrex]

 

 

How would you fill out a brigade for BA's with your fast attack slots then?

And/or, do you think it's even necessary? (a brigade)

 

 

I think trying to force a brigade into 2000 points severely weakens the list with any space marine force right now. The exception to this might be to use mostly scouts?

 

HQ - Libby w. axe and relic jump pack (goes in with the Van Vets)

HQ - Captain in Gravis to baby sit the whirlwinds

HQ - Lieutenant to baby sit the whirlwinds

 

ELITE - Van Vet (5-man) TH&SSx5      x2

ELITE - Dreadnought (Lascannon & CCW)

 

TROOP - Scout (5-man) with bolter & Heavy Bolter x6 in Land Speeder Storms with Heavy Bolters

 

FAST ATTACK - Scout biker squads (6-man) x2 (powersword & all botlers) 

FAST ATTACK - Land Speeders Squads (3-man) Heavy Bolterx2 (use these to us the auto-hit stratagem with the whirlwinds against a really important target.)

 

HEAVY SUPPORT - Whirlwind x3

 

Not sure about the points but this is kind of what I would work towards if I had to have a brigade.

 

Unfortunately you're over 2k before even factoring in the 6 land speeder storms.

 

I agree - Brigades are certainly tough at 2k, and I'm still debating whether they're worth it. I try and go 4 units of scouts/2 intercessors troops wise.

FA isn't too bad - Normally a mix of Scout Bikers and Inceptors (Possibly use tarantula's if points are tight)

 

I always have trouble with the Heavy Support section. Hunter's are cheap, but are essentially a single lascannon shot. Stalkers are more attractive now with the price drop, but still not amazing. I'm considering trying some Quad Launcher Rapiers that I have leftover from 30K - Decent AT and reasonably cheap.

[Brother Crimson]

I personally like melta Assault squad. Sure we can try to get assault marine as melee (as we should) but DC and Vanguard wins in term of efficiency. Also point for point combat knife scout can deploy way ahead and attempt early charge at a fraction of the cost.

 

For JP special weapons the on the other hand you have to compare to company vet. It is 19 per model because you pay for a second attack but with special weapons you’ll most likely just fly away and shoot. This is where I see some use to assault squad: with melta or plasmas.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Ok, what do you guys think about Attack Bikes for our fast attack slots?

 

I've been working (slowly) on converting 2 Dracothian Guard models into attack bikes (dragon riders) and using the Magmadon dragon as a "Baal Predator"

 

They can come in nice and cheap with heavy bolters for 47 pts.  Fill out your fast attack obligations for 150 pts.

I personally like melta Assault squad. Sure we can try to get assault marine as melee (as we should) but DC and Vanguard wins in term of efficiency. Also point for point combat knife scout can deploy way ahead and attempt early charge at a fraction of the cost.

For JP special weapons the on the other hand you have to compare to company vet. It is 19 per model because you pay for a second attack but with special weapons you’ll most likely just fly away and shoot. This is where I see some use to assault squad: with melta or plasmas.

 

Yeah if I had 30 scouts, I'd probably plug them all in for my Troops, but, alas, I only have 10, so Tacs will go for the rest.