Chapter/Legion Tactics vs. other armies' equivalent

[Deschenus Maximus]

Good day Brothers! Haven't been on here in an age so apologies if this topic has been discussed to death already, but I wanted to bring up the fact that Marines/Chaos Marines don't get to use their Chapter/Legion Tactics on their vehicles (aside from Dreads), unlike every other more recently released army. When I brought this up with the official 40k Facebook guys, they answered something nonsensical about not being able to teach tactics to a tank. If that's the reason they are going with, why do Guard tanks get to benefit from their Regimental Doctrines, then?

 

I'm seriously annoyed by this. This state of affair means that we either never really get to fully enjoy our Trait (why shoot the Dread with -1 to hit when the Pred right next to it doesn't have it?) or we have to set aside a large segment of our available arsenal. This is doubly annoying given that it takes a single line of FAQing to fix.

 

EDIT: If you want to do something about it, write GW's FAQ team: 40KFAQ@gwplc.com

Edited December 18, 2017 by Deschenus Maximus

[Brother Casman]

Might be good to send an email using their new direct line? 40KFAQ@gwplc.com

[Deschenus Maximus]

Yeah I did just that.

[Beams]

Guard gets it on their tanks since theyve had army lists that we're pure tanks for a long time, and it wouldn't be fair to those players to lose that.

 

That said, Guard does not get chapter tactics on Bullgryns, Ratlings, Psykers, and their other Auxilla/Psykana options, and only get chapter tactics on Scions of they take them in their own detachment, and Scions only get a fairly weak one that can't be choosen.

 

The only army so far to get universal ones, that I know of, is Eldar.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Guard gets it on their tanks since theyve had army lists that we're pure tanks for a long time, and it wouldn't be fair to those players to lose that.

 

Guard tank armies never had Doctrines, so I don't know how they could have lost something they never had...

 

That said, Guard does not get chapter tactics on Bullgryns, Ratlings, Psykers, and their other Auxilla/Psykana options, and only get chapter tactics on Scions of they take them in their own detachment, and Scions only get a fairly weak one that can't be choosen.

 

A handful of units is a joke compared to: all Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Rhinos, Stormhawk, Stormtalon, Stormraven, Repulsor, Stalker, Hunter, Whirlwind, Vindicator, Predator, Thudnerfire Cannon, Land Speeder and Land Speeder Storm. Oh and Roboute Guilliman (because that makes TOTAL sense).

 

The only army so far to get universal ones, that I know of, is Eldar.

 

Eldar, Tyranids, AdMech and Guard (save for a few units) get it on everything. Only Marines/Chaos Marines and their variants don't.

[Beams]

 

 

Guard gets it on their tanks since theyve had army lists that we're pure tanks for a long time, and it wouldn't be fair to those players to lose that.

Guard tank armies never had Doctrines, so I don't know how they could have lost something they never had...

That said, Guard does not get chapter tactics on Bullgryns, Ratlings, Psykers, and their other Auxilla/Psykana options, and only get chapter tactics on Scions of they take them in their own detachment, and Scions only get a fairly weak one that can't be choosen.

A handful of units is a joke compared to: all Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Rhinos, Stormhawk, Stormtalon, Stormraven, Repulsor, Stalker, Hunter, Whirlwind, Vindicator, Predator, Thudnerfire Cannon, Land Speeder and Land Speeder Storm. Oh and Roboute Guilliman (because that makes TOTAL sense).

The only army so far to get universal ones, that I know of, is Eldar.

Eldar, Tyranids, AdMech and Guard (save for a few units) get it on everything. Only Marines/Chaos Marines and their variants don't.

To lose having pure tank lists. They shouldn't be penalized for playing a.lost that's been around longer than most players.

 

Guard doesn't get it on Commisars, Lord Commisars, Officer of the Fleet, Astropath, primaris psyker, cruaaders, priests, servitors, wyrdvane psykers, valkyrie, Vendetta, Rough Riders, Ogryn, Bullgryn, Ogryn Bodyguard, Nork Deddogg, Commisar Yarrick, Ratlings, Enginseers. I'm sure there's a few I'm missing, but saying that's a handful of units is exaggerating. And they can't use them on LoWs in an Auxilla detachment. So theirs isn't universal. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty Admech has less units than space Marines have HQs.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Beams

[chapter master 454]

-cough- Iron hands doesn't apply to tanks yet eldar Ulthwé get the same benefit for their tanks -cough- Ulthwé better iron hands than iron hands -cough-

 

Lets be real here, the two big ones are ultramarine and iron hands. Iron hands should apply to tanks without question, it is their thing to be all about machines and the ultramarine one is a big deal because TANKS SHOULD BE ABLE TO FALL BACK AND SHOOT ANYWAY!

 

Raven Guard makes sense (alaitoc don't as to why their large tanks can get the -1 I believe), White Scars is makes little difference and imperial fists would ideally love it on their crusaders. TO be honest, I feel the marine codex as it right and the eldar codex has it wrong. I would also comment that if Iron Hands don't get the 6+ on tanks then maybe at least let their tanks have the Iyanden effect.

[Gentlemanloser]

GK should get psychic pilot back and all thier vehicles should be able to smite, deny and know 1 power.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

To lose having pure tank lists. They shouldn't be penalized for playing a.lost that's been around longer than most players.

 

 

Why would they lose the ability to play pure tank lists?

 

 

Guard doesn't get it on Commisars, Lord Commisars, Officer of the Fleet, Astropath, primaris psyker, cruaaders, priests, servitors, wyrdvane psykers, valkyrie, Vendetta, Rough Riders, Ogryn, Bullgryn, Ogryn Bodyguard, Nork Deddogg, Commisar Yarrick, Ratlings, Enginseers. I'm sure there's a few I'm missing, but saying that's a handful of units is exaggerating. And they can't use them on LoWs in an Auxilla detachment. So theirs isn't universal. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty Admech has less units than space Marines have HQs.

 

 

In fairness, all the units you mentionned are not part of a Regiment. Marine tank crews are very much part of the Chapter, however. Apples and oranges.

[Beams]

 

 

 

To lose having pure tank lists. They shouldn't be penalized for playing a.lost that's been around longer than most players.

 

Why would they lose the ability to play pure tank lists?

Guard doesn't get it on Commisars, Lord Commisars, Officer of the Fleet, Astropath, primaris psyker, cruaaders, priests, servitors, wyrdvane psykers, valkyrie, Vendetta, Rough Riders, Ogryn, Bullgryn, Ogryn Bodyguard, Nork Deddogg, Commisar Yarrick, Ratlings, Enginseers. I'm sure there's a few I'm missing, but saying that's a handful of units is exaggerating. And they can't use them on LoWs in an Auxilla detachment. So theirs isn't universal. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty Admech has less units than space Marines have HQs.

 

In fairness, all the units you mentionned are not part of a Regiment. Marine tank crews are very much part of the Chapter, however. Apples and oranges.

Is it though? Because they are units in the guard codex, and are Astra Militarum. They gave them the fancy subfaction so they wouldn't have a regimental trait.

 

And pure tank lists need the bonus to make up for the lack of infantry, since pure tank lists have maybe 7 leman russes?

Edited December 19, 2017 by Beams

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

Is it though? Because they are units in the guard codex, and are Astra Militarum. They gave them the fancy subfaction so they wouldn't have a regimental trait.

 

 

The Marine equivalent would be Servitors, which already do not benefit from Chapter Tactics IIRC. I'm fine with that.

[Beams]

Right. I'm not saying the Auxilla and stuff need chapter tactics, but maybe the Ultramarines don't need landspeeders with them either.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Right. I'm not saying the Auxilla and stuff need chapter tactics, but maybe the Ultramarines don't need landspeeders with them either.

 

That's really not in the same league at all, and it doesn't make sense for them (SM vehicles) not to have them. And if its a balance issue, I'd gladly pay a certain amount of points if its warranted (which I don't really think it is).

[DuskRaider]

I'm cool with having Inexorable Advance on my Land Raiders and Predators.

[Wargamer]

The thing you're missing, Beams, is that all Cadians get the Cadians doctrine, all Ataloic get the Ataloic doctrine, but not all Ultramarines get the Ultramarines doctrine. This is an inconsistency that should be addressed.

[totgeboren]

I prefer to keep it like this. It just places too big of a strain on the points system that say a Land Raider should cost the same for the UM as it does for say the WS.
Not to mention CSM, where you have legions like the BL and WB who have rather bad traits to start with, and then would receive zero benefit for their vehicles, further widening the power gap.

 

The SM/CSM traits were obviously designed with the intent of not applying to vehicles, while the others have traits that were obviously designed to apply to vehicles.

A row of errata would be incredibly unfair, they would need to write new rules for all the legions who gain nothing (I mean, the UM trait is simply incredibly valuable on vehicles, and a benefit such as that needs to cost point).

Edited December 19, 2017 by totgeboren

[Gentlemanloser]

Like Eldar's Ravenguard Chapter Tactics, or Iron Hands Chapter Tactics?

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The SM/CSM traits were obviously designed with the intent of not applying to vehicles, while the others have traits that were obviously designed to apply to vehicles.

A row of errata would be incredibly unfair, they would need to write new rules for all the legions who gain nothing (I mean, the UM trait is simply incredibly valuable on vehicles, and a benefit such as that simply needs to cost point).

Isn't this proven somewhat false by stuff like the RG/AL -1 to hit tactic, which is shared by other dexes, where it does apply to everything?

 

Faction tactics already are far from equal (and not just Marine ones), so why would they need to rewrite the Tactic rules? All would benefit the tanks they were added to, even the BTs (altough probably the least, as tanks charging isn't always ideal). Is ignores cover equal value to -1 to hit on tac Marines? If yes, then why would it be unfair on tanks? If no, then there's fundamental issues with tactic balance already, so why not at least solve one problem by giving Marines tactic parity with other dexes?

[Charlo]

I'll admit, it feels strange that this is the case now we've had a couple of other 'dexes to benchmark against (Ad Mech, Guard, Eldar & 'Nids) and some of those abilities are downright insane; -1 to hit on everything being the stand-out for me.

 

There is also a large disparity internally between the tactics and their contemporaries let alone externally: J

 

Just compare the Black Legions Advance and Fire Rapid Fire as Assault & +1Ld (less shots, less accurate for a few inches movement is kind of pants), to Renegades Advance & Charge (enjoy your speedy marines to reach combat where they excel faster) and then to the -1 to hit on all units of Eldar & 'Nids (buffs shooting, buffs assault, always on).

 

It doesn't stack up!

 

Now obviously we don't want all factions to be the same, thats not fun.

 

My only guess is that Chaos & Marines have such big representations/ model pools/ options that the lack of it on all units is justified that way.

[Beams]

The thing you're missing, Beams, is that all Cadians get the Cadians doctrine, all Ataloic get the Ataloic doctrine, but not all Ultramarines get the Ultramarines doctrine. This is an inconsistency that should be addressed.

It's not an inconsistency. There are Catachans bullgryns, cadian bullgryns, etc. They decided to separate them into a separate regiment so that Catachans bullgryns wouldn't be Str 8 and Vostroyans Ratlings wouldn't have range 42 snipers. Just like they decided we didn't need Land Raiders that were even more durable.

[totgeboren]

Like Eldar's Ravenguard Chapter Tactics, or Iron Hands Chapter Tactics?

 

That is exactly what I mean, in that their 'Chapter tactics' all provide benefits for their vehicles. The rules are balanced (though certainly not perfectly) in such a way as to give everyone something. Guards instead got specific rules for their vehicles, to balance them that way.

 

In what way would reroll morale be comparable to -1 to being hit for a Predator (WB vs AL)? Allowing BL tanks to advance and fire rapid fire weapons as assault weapons isn't really a special rule at all, since it's exactly the same as not having a special rule, since they don't have access to rapid fire weapons.

 

It's not about consistency between codices, it's about the rules being written with the intent that vehicles are not effected (SM/CSM), while in the case of the later codices (IG/Eldar/Nids), the rules were written with the intent that vehicles should be included.

 

Now I understand that people want new, better thought out SM/CSM traits (I certainly do since the WB trait is probably the worst between both those books!), but that is wanting new codices, not an errata.

Edited December 19, 2017 by totgeboren

[Finkmilkana]

I don’t agree that SM vehicles should get the normal chapter tactics (in many cases would be nonsensical either way), but they should get some special vehicle rules (like guard, which can potentially overlap with chapter tactics). Eldar should also loose their universal rules and instead get vehicle specific rules. That would also stop things like constant -2 to hit flyers.

But I highly doubt GW will change anything at this point (besides potentially ruling that eldar vehicles don’t get tactics anymore if enough people complain).

Edited December 19, 2017 by Finkmilkana

[Wargamer]

 

The thing you're missing, Beams, is that all Cadians get the Cadians doctrine, all Ataloic get the Ataloic doctrine, but not all Ultramarines get the Ultramarines doctrine. This is an inconsistency that should be addressed.

It's not an inconsistency. There are Catachans bullgryns, cadian bullgryns, etc. They decided to separate them into a separate regiment so that Catachans bullgryns wouldn't be Str 8 and Vostroyans Ratlings wouldn't have range 42 snipers. Just like they decided we didn't need Land Raiders that were even more durable.

No, there aren't. Ogryns do not come from Cadia, Catachan, Mordia, etc. They are attached to these Regiments, much like how you can take Ultramarines and Black Templars in the same detachment. But they are not the same regiment.

[Wargamer]

Frankly, if certain doctrines are too powerful on vehicles, you can do what the Guard do and have two doctrines. So Raven Guard Infantry and Dreads might have the -1 to hit, but their other vehicles might all get Power of the Machine Spirit instead, or whatever works best for the list.

[Mileposter]

If it's a mechanics question, leave the fluff out of it. If it's a fluff question, leave the mechanics out of it. One has to be solidified first, and then the other based on it - you can't argue both at once and arrive at a tangible solution.

 

Identify the problem, provide a possible solution, argue your solution, and show your work. If you're on target, the math will support you.