Chapter/Legion Tactics vs. other armies' equivalent

[Beams]

 

 

The thing you're missing, Beams, is that all Cadians get the Cadians doctrine, all Ataloic get the Ataloic doctrine, but not all Ultramarines get the Ultramarines doctrine. This is an inconsistency that should be addressed.

It's not an inconsistency. There are Catachans bullgryns, cadian bullgryns, etc. They decided to separate them into a separate regiment so that Catachans bullgryns wouldn't be Str 8 and Vostroyans Ratlings wouldn't have range 42 snipers. Just like they decided we didn't need Land Raiders that were even more durable.

No, there aren't. Ogryns do not come from Cadia, Catachan, Mordia, etc. They are attached to these Regiments, much like how you can take Ultramarines and Black Templars in the same detachment. But they are not the same regiment.

So, what you are arguing, is that a trooper from another planet who ends up fighting with Cadians and is attached to a cadian regiment shouldn't be considered a member of a cadian regiment? Edited December 19, 2017 by Beams

[Deschenus Maximus]

To answer some of the common points:

-Yes, not all Chapter Tactics will benefit vehicles equally. Guess what? The same is true for many of the Trait equivalents of other armies: all Eldar assault units will only marginaly benefit from Alaitoc, and most Tyranid units won't be able to leverage Kronos at all either. So it's not like it would be more unfair for Marines.

-I would be perfectly happy to have different abilities for vehicles and infantry like Guard get (in fact, that would be my prefered solution) but that will likely take considerably more work and is unlikely to come to pass in a FAQ. So I would be content with the band-aid fix of a FAQ removing the limitations on our current Chapter Tactics for the time being. It's still better than nothing.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

So, what you are arguing, is that a trooper from another planet who ends up fighting with Cadians and is attached to a cadian regiment shouldn't be considered a member of a cadian regiment?

 

Strictly speaking? Depends on length of transfer. Because troopers from Genericus VIII haven't been raised and trained in the same traditions as a Cadian or Catachan (which are what the Faction tactics are intended to represent), they will lack those specialisations when first associated. If they stay with the Cadians, after a few campaigns you'd get some homogenisation and an argument could be made for the new guys being functionally the same as the 'real' Cadians. But throwing some Mordians and Cadians together doesn't make the entire force either Cadian or Mordian. Overall though, that's a level of granularity that goes a bit beyond the scope of tabletop and its half dozen Regiment tactics.

 

However, we aren't talking about troopers cross pollinating here. The Guard units that lack Keyword Cadia aren't Cadian, they're auxiliaries trained in specialised and specific forms of combat, and are often moved around between Guard formations as the need arises (especially stuff like Storm Troopers). They're members of the Commissariat, Kappic Eagles etc. They're just not trained like the Guardsmen (let alone the eccentricities of Guardsmen from one world), and in a laudable example of crunch aligning with fluff, the rules support this. Shame the same can't be said for Marines, as the Predator gunner is as much an Imperial Fist as the Devastator.

 

You think the restrictions were because the designers said 'we don't want Strength buffed Catachan Ogryns'. I'd say it's far more likely they said 'of course Ogryns/Ratlings/Commisars don't get Catachan/Tallarn/Valhallan tactics, they're not Catachan/Tallarn/Valhallan, they're Ogryns/Ratlings/Commisars'.

[Gentlemanloser]

Guys, it's just powercreep.

 

Look at the Strats as well.  The earlier Codexes were baselines.  Newer Coexes get the baseline *plus*.  Look at Eldar strats and compared them to the original Space Marines.

[totgeboren]

So I would be content with the band-aid fix of a FAQ removing the limitations on our current Chapter Tactics for the time being. It's still better than nothing.

 

But that is only if you have a good/useful trait to start with. If you regard it as an internal codex balance issue instead, this solution is actually worse than nothing.

I mean, as I mentioned, my WB hands down have the worst trait in the CSM book (reroll morale is strictly worse than +1 LD, and the BL have +1 LD and an extra ability on top!)

If we allow vehicles to use their legion/chapter trait my WB will become even worse in relation to everyone else. :p

 

That is, the internal balance between the traits become even worse than what it already is. If the issue is external balance, that is, SM or CSM are not strong enough in relation to newer books, that should be addressed by points changes like in Chapter Approved. Changes to the traits should mainly aim towards making them all equally useful, not make them even more unequal.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@totgeboren: I feel for you, but the points you bring up would not deter me from effecting the change. I don't think anyone would argue that the WB trait isn't crap but all books have some crap traits, unfortunately.

[Ishagu]

There's no justifiable reason why a Wraithknight or Wave Serpent have the full benefit from Craftworld abilities and are harder to hit whilst all the marine vehicles are disconnected from their chapters, for example.

 

Do you have a link to any correspondence with GW? I want them to address this also, and to do so quickly.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Ishagu

[Gentlemanloser]

Gotta sell the new Eldar Dex.  No new Models, and Ynarri nerfed.  So what to do?

 

Give them better rules!!

[Deschenus Maximus]

There's no justifiable reason why a Wraithknight or Wave Serpent have the full benefit from Craftworld abilities and are harder to hit whilst all the marine vehicles are disconnected from their chapters, for example.

 

Do you have a link to any correspondence with GW? I want them to address this also, and to do so quickly.

 

The link to the FAQ e-mail adress has been added to the OP. I think that's the best way to bring the issue. I've also been sorta hounding the 40k Facebook page guys about it whenever its relevant.

[justicarius6]

 

 

So I would be content with the band-aid fix of a FAQ removing the limitations on our current Chapter Tactics for the time being. It's still better than nothing.

But that is only if you have a good/useful trait to start with. If you regard it as an internal codex balance issue instead, this solution is actually worse than nothing.

I mean, as I mentioned, my WB hands down have the worst trait in the CSM book (reroll morale is strictly worse than +1 LD, and the BL have +1 LD and an extra ability on top!)

If we allow vehicles to use their legion/chapter trait my WB will become even worse in relation to everyone else. :p

 

That is, the internal balance between the traits become even worse than what it already is. If the issue is external balance, that is, SM or CSM are not strong enough in relation to newer books, that should be addressed by points changes like in Chapter Approved. Changes to the traits should mainly aim towards making them all equally useful, not make them even more unequal.

Well, in fluff Word Bearers were always the bitch legion so fluff matching crunch.... :P

 

Seriously though, I think Gentle is right and this is simply power creep. We all know that Codices are far from equal and newer tends to be better (fecking 'nids!!).

[Mileposter]

Except it really isn't power creep. 'Nids aren't better than Eldar, and Eldar aren't doing inherently better than Guard. Hell, the data still shows Chaos being the ones riding high. It only seems like power creep when compared to Space Marines.

 

The Space Marines coded is in a rough spot, is all there is too it. Is it bad? Not enough that people aren't winning with it. But it definitely is probably the coded that needs the most help currently (of those already out).

 

That said, I'm fine if GW focuses on getting all Codices out before addressing it.

[chapter master 454]

Space marines are a terrible idea of an army. In game design they are terrible. What are we? Jack of all trades. We have nothing we excel at. Eldar sacrifice durability for speed and hitting power. Chaos marines sacrifice some element their jack trade style for having better melee power (their range game isn't exactly bad but chaos shines with their melee), Tau should be the dominant gun army but right now have taxes so high they can't afford good shield generators and so on.

 

Space Marines are literally the benchmark army. The time we were even decent was abusing grav on centurions and that was a unit that gave us some identity and even then not much. Marines need to focus on a certain aspect to be successful as much as it may hurt roboute to hear that, your force needs to do something, not everything. In terms of lore: we are supposed to be shock troopers who appear suddenly and wreck EVERYTHING before the foe has a chance to even update their instagram with a selfie. Where did that go? oh right, out the window with how reserves work. We are suppose to be THE alpha strike army. The very army whose alpha strike is the best both because it hits hard but it is ALWAYS first with how we deploy. Nothing on the board from turn 1 until we get to go. That is what made us good: Drop Pod Assault. Our defining tactic is gone, removed from the game and now we are forced to play the ground game where we suck. Marines are elite troops whose good armour save is meant to soak one round of return fire before hosing down the rest.

 

Now however, we are forced to put units on the ground that were meant to be used in first strike operations but then don't hold up afterwards. If marines were allowed to Drop Pod Assault again fully (as in full army) there may be a case for marines being good again. Giving them the edge where they can chose where units go and giving the enemy little choice. If we had that, then maybe marines would be good. (but as it stands because of how reserving works for every drop pod you need 2 units on the ground at minimum. So each pod is heavily taxed)

[justicarius6]

I'd be happy to have half my army using Drop Pod Assault if the actual rules and points for Drop Pods were useful/viable. I mean, there's not even a stratagem for it....

[Gentlemanloser]

Space Marines, Ad mech and GK.

 

Nid, Eldar and Guard are an obvious tier above the earlier Codexes (not enough interaction with DG or Chaos to make any claims about them).

 

It is nothing but powercreep.

 

And in no way does the SM dex need more help than the GK dex..

 

The GK dex it literally the worst of all the released Codexes.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Mileposter]

Space Marines, Ad mech and GK.

 

Nid, Eldar and Guard are an obvious tier above the earlier Codexes (not enough interaction with DG or Chaos to make any claims about them).

 

It is nothing but powercreep.

 

And in no way does the SM dex need more help than the GK dex..

 

The GK dex it literally the worst of all the released Codexes.

I gotta be fair - I completely forgot about the Grey Knights codex. Which probably proves the point. Won't deny that GK needs some love. Maybe more than C:SM, but that doesn't stop C:SM from needing some help too. Still won't be surprised if GW focuses on getting all the Codices released before updating them.

 

Guard and Eldar were doing very well even before their Codices, so saying that they're still top tier isn't evidence of power creep. And Chaos Space Marines are still doing better than both of them, which is further evidence against power creep. Blood Angels and Dark Angels have not exactly been out very long, but nothing released with them has given any of the folks who know better than I any reason to think that Eldar and Guard will be supplanted by them - which only further suggests no to the power creep. And there's the changes they make after release that cuts things down if they're too strong - which even further suggests no to the power creep.

 

Some things are bound to end up stronger than others - most often unintentionally - when considering balance on this scale. That doesn't immediately make it nefarious, nor prove that any previous actions of the company are repeating.

 

Let data drive conclusions, not sensation.

[Gentlemanloser]

I smashed the Nids every game a played against them pre codex.

 

Now I can't touch them.

 

Their Codex moved them head an shoulders above the GK.

 

Also, just compare the Chapter Traits and Strats from the earlier codexes to the later ones.  The later Codexes build upon the baseline with extra additions.  Just as the Chapter traits do.

 

Eldar weren't good before the Codex, Ynarri were.  They overshadowed both Index Eldar and Codex Eldar.  And were hit hard by a nerbat.

 

Codex Eldar have gained so much more form their Codex than the earlier Dexes did though.

 

They, with Guard and Nids, are objectively more powerful Codexes than the original releases.

 

GK were second and got mostly C&P'd SM strats.  Eldar get basic SM strats with added extras on top.

[Mileposter]

Anecdotal. This is not data.

 

Even as evidence goes, this only suggests that Nids got stronger with their Codex. It is not a statement of Power Creep.

 

Show that the Tyranids are objectively beating the Eldar and Guard. Show that the Dark Angels or Blood Angels are beating the 'Nids, Eldar, and Guard. Show that Chaos Space Marines aren't still the top of the game despite being one of the first Codices.

 

The data disagrees with your assessment. The data shows that two codices released, Space Marines and Grey Knights, are performing sub-par. The data shows that players of these codices are very unhappy about this predicament.

 

The data does not show that Power Creep is the cause.

 

An argument can be made that there is a tonal difference between the Grey Knights release and the Death Guard release. It's possible that a design change occurred between these two releases, and is the reason for the majority of the later Codices success. This is speculative, however, as the only data available on this is the prevalence of similar themes in the Codices following Death Guard. If true, however, it suggests that there will be a point where Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, and Grey Knights will be brought to that design standard. Only time can prove or disprove that theory.

 

I understand that you are set in this belief, and I understand that this was an actual metric that could be tracked in previous editions (tracked it myself in 7th). But until the data shows it happening here, not gonna jump on that bandwagon. Show it, and I'll change my tune.

[Gentlemanloser]

I've nor seen anything to show chaos is top. It's all guard and nids at the moment.

 

Are sm sub par? Or are the others too good.

 

Goalpost movement i really don't care to argue.

 

Wherever you set the baseline the data shows that the latest codexes (with da and ba being too close to release to count) that the latter codexes perform better.

 

The power of these latter codexes has creeped above the earlier.

 

Regardless of where you place the sm dex.

[Mileposter]

The definitive note of Power Creep is that power must keep creeping.

 

If the Eldar, 'Nids, and Guard are on equal footing - then it's not Power Creep. If the Death Guard are doing better than the Adeptus Mechanicus (I don't actually know this one!), then it's not Power Creep. If the Dark Angels / Blood Angels dno't immediate dominate the battlefield, then it's not Power Creep.

 

Regarding CSM being top at present, this thread has a discussion on it.

 

Again, though - my disagreement with the Power Creep accusation doesn't change that I agree the Space Marine codex is lacking. Drawing it back to the more specific topic outlaid in the OP, I'm not so sure a blanket "And Chapter Tactics applies to vehicles" is a good way to fix that. Certainly isn't a creative one.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Drawing it back to the more specific topic outlaid in the OP, I'm not so sure a blanket "And Chapter Tactics applies to vehicles" is a good way to fix that. Certainly isn't a creative one.

 

It certainly isn't, but it's a) better than nothing and b) a quick fix that is easily implemented (via updated FAQ) while we wait for an updated Codex/Chapter Approved.

[Wargamer]

If there's one thing that's very clear, it's that the maxim of 8th is KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Is applying Chapter Tactics to everything the simplest fix? Yes. Ergo, that's probably what the fix will be.

[Deschenus Maximus]

If there's one thing that's very clear, it's that the maxim of 8th is KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid!

 

Is applying Chapter Tactics to everything the simplest fix? Yes. Ergo, that's probably what the fix will be.

 

Hopefully, that will just be something to tide us over until our book gets looked at, because God knows it needs it.

[Wargamer]

At the risk of turning this into a House Rules thread, you could potentially have specific bonuses for vehicles that differ from infantry.

Two concepts that spring to mind are:

Ancestral Armoury: All <Chapter> Vehicles gain the Power of the Machine Spirit rule, if they do not already posses it.

 

Another idea, which in theory won't require any recostings would be to give any non-transport vehicles that lack PotMS a rule like "May fire their primary weapon twice if remained stationary in the movement phase". Primary weapons being defined as the weapons listed on the profile as standard - Vindicator cannons, whirlwind missiles, Predator turrets, etc.

Might make the Predators overpowered, thinking about it, but again this is why it's best to keep it simple. :P

[Deschenus Maximus]

I'm a big fan of having different effects for infantry and vehicles, and hopefully they do just that in the next Codex, but in the interim, it's probably more realistic to expect (and push for) a simple lifting of the restreints on vehicles for the current CTs.

[Mileposter]

It's very unlikely for them to apply a rule and then simply rework/remove the rule later on.

 

I expect that the fix will more likely be a tweaking of model stats and points, as it's not only vehicles that are being lackluster for Marines. I would not be surprised if vehicles such as the Predator end up a bit stronger on the stat level, while other armies are stronger on the ability level.