Cataphractii Tactica

[Prot]

So I’m not a big Terminator fan in 8th but I’m thinking without Mort this might be a must have unit for me in typical games.

 

Since we play a lot of Maelstrom I’ve been having problems with mobility but more so just establishing a deep threat against some brutal opponent shooting units.

 

This seems to be my only codex option.

 

Right now I am including Typhus as the Warlord re-rolling to wound on the Blight Launchers and all CC weapons (if I make it).

 

I’ve considered adding Felthius’ trio to the mix in front of Typhus and his Cataphractii so that I can put Cloud of Flies on Typhus’ Cataphractii with more regularity.

 

So far I’m running two combi-meltas a Blight Launcher and a Flail (I love the Flail).

 

What are you guys running? Is anyone else having success with the Cataphractii? I admit I hate it without a to hit aura, but really this is the only I’ve been able to reliably have some respectable threat deep in the zone. It feels too expensive but it does buy me time.

[Marshal Loss]

I might be misreading your post, but Typhus has a preset Warlord trait, 'Living Plague,' and is not able to take Arch-contaminator. You will need a Lord of Contagion or other HQ with the Blightlords to give them those re-rolls.

 

My Blightlords are run with all combi-plasma, as I was lucky enough to negotiate to pick up 13 combi-plasmas off a generous eBay seller in the UK. Depending on who I'm playing against, they either drop down when my Daemon Prince and Drones are close to the enemy to take advantage of the 1's to hit re-roll and shatter a line with those faster moving units, or drop down as part of a larger force (including a Lord in Terminator armour) earlier on to do as much damage as possible while my footsloggers and other assorted minions jog across the board. Overcharging plasma Blightlords with 18 inch rapid fire range are insanely lethal provided they have re-rolls to hit. They have done very well for me so far, winning multiple games on their own.

 

If I wasn't running combi-plasma, I would keep them bare-bones. Combi-bolters, axes and flails. Blight Launchers don't hurt. Not sold on combi-meltas on Blightlords, although I have seen some people say it works for them.

[Prot]

Sorry you’re right. It’s on my Daemon Prince. I know most people like something else but I prefer Blight Launchers with Contaminator running.

 

With my other Chaos armies I’ve always run Combi plasma, but so far preferring the Melta with my DG especially running VotLW. In my meta I really need the damage. If I some how get lucky enough to survive the melta rule may actually click for me.

 

The way my Blight Haulers have been working and even the Plague Crawlers I really seem to almost feel forced into the melta combis.

 

Basically with my old school Chaos I have all these clipped off plasma pistols mounted to Combi Bolters and it looks good. I’d love to use them with my DG but like I said I feel like I can’t afford the damage drop. I may experiment in the future though.

[TURBULENCE]

Haven't had a chance to use mine yet, I was going to bring them to my next game, but I dropped them for note in favor of having a leviathan throwdown next game.

 

But I went with 3 combi-Meltas, a blight launcher and a flail. I've left the plasma to my plague marines, and mostly intend to use them to threaten backfield vehicles and artillery anyway. So I figured why not go with melta.

Edited December 30, 2017 by TURBULENCE

[Kilofix]

I put as many Combi Meltas or Plasmas as I can on my Blightlords and leave everything else (Launchers, Flail, etc. to Marines). Then I use them like Deep Striking Scions. If Combi Plasmas, I usually drop a Terminator Lord too for the reroll.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The issue with Combi meltas is the range. You can never get the double dice off the deepstrike which hurts in comparison to the 18" rapid fire, but the real kicker is that bubble wrap can often just push you out of 12" range to start with.

 

Now our terminators are the most survivable in the game, but there's enough things out there than can kill them or even just tie them up in combat to prevent them from shooting.

 

Plasma is probably always the best option, due to range and amount of shots.

[Shockmaster]

I will be going for Plasma as two shots after deep striking just seems too good to pass up.

[TURBULENCE]

I'll agree plasma is statically better, and if I ever do a second unit it's getting all plasma, thankfully my meta is casual and I can get away with not running the most efficient setup as standard

[Wolf Lord Loki]

However might also be worth thinking about the fact if you need to get closer to the enemy you can advance AND shoot the melta part. AND death guard detachments dont suffer the penalty for advancing AND firjng assault weapons!

[Prot]

The issue with Combi meltas is the range. You can never get the double dice off the deepstrike which hurts in comparison to the 18" rapid fire, but the real kicker is that bubble wrap can often just push you out of 12" range to start with.

 

Now our terminators are the most survivable in the game, but there's enough things out there than can kill them or even just tie them up in combat to prevent them from shooting.

 

Plasma is probably always the best option, due to range and amount of shots.

 

The issue with Plasma is without an overcharge I find it nearly useless against vehicle/monster heavy armies.

 

"Statistically better". I don't know what that means, but plasma is not statistically better for me. I'm not a math guy but months of playing plasma has told me it's not what my Death Guard need. It's certainly not scientific to say so, but so far unless I overcharge plasma really doesn't do any damage.

 

I don't have any lascannons in my army. My 'heavy' shooting comes from stuff with BS 4. When it comes to elite infantry, I feel like I have the answer to those things.

 

Last game I played was the perfect example... My Termies took down a Dread in 2 shots/2 wounds. 

 

I save the command point for the damage roll.

 

I'm not trying to change your guys' mind. Play what you think is best but before throwing out terms like "statistically better", or just plain "better", maybe define what that means to you.

 

I know without Oblits, without Las.... and playing against parking lot IG, monster heavy nids, I find Combi-Plasma very frustrating and overlapping (to a degree) something Deathguard do okay already.

 

For CSM I always use combi plasma, and there I would say (in that situation) it is better, but I have Oblits running (Slaanesh) and the Termies are usually Slaanesh as well, and the army uses more las, with better BS typically. 

 

If you guys are in a meta playing infantry gunline, then I'd agree... stick with your plasma.

 

Just even in my last game (vs Dark Angels preds/Dreads) the Melta probably won me the game (one Cataphractii ended up living long enough to use the 'melta' rule to take the last 5 wounds off the pred. A solo plasma is never doing that.) And to be fair I will cross test this as well with Plasma!

 

On assault... am I the only using the Flail? How about the champion? How is everyone using him?

Edited December 30, 2017 by Prot

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea but here's the issue. If you're foot slogging, at best you're going 4+2d6/2. Most likely it's going to be 7", but that still gives you a fairly short threat range of 13" for double dice compared to 22" for rapidfire plasma. If you're deepstriking you can't advance, so its moot there.

 

Basically if you teleport to get around d their crippling speed you cant even run, and if you don't, the Range still sucks

 

Edit: @prot the whole point to plasma is the overcharge. You should always support your shooting squads with rerolls to hit; a chaos lord deepstriking with or a DP moving up the field are both solid options.

 

Let's pretend without; two Meltas mathematically get .87 wounds on a t5-7 target. You've done no damage. 2 plasmas get you 1.7 wounds, 1.44 unsaved and 2 damage. Plasma is better as it more reliably generates wounds.

 

With rerolls of 1s Melta does 1.01 wounds and has a random range of damage, though a command point reroll averages you to around 4-6 damage. Plasma does 2.02 wounds, 1.68 after saves and 2 damage. Melta has the potential to be better just due to the fact that it wounds, but the command point is pretty important in tipping it.

 

So with math, we can see that against vehicles from a deepstrike (as you say you like to use them) that without rerolls to hit or stratagems the plasma is more consistent in its damage. You then can extrapolate the longer range, better synergy with legion trait and more shots to conclude that it's also more versatile. Thus "statistically superior".

 

You can't put the flail on the champ

Edited December 30, 2017 by SkimaskMohawk

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Yea but here's the issue. If you're foot slogging, at best you're going 4+2d6/2. Most likely it's going to be 7", but that still gives you a fairly short threat range of 13" for double dice compared to 22" for rapidfire plasma. If you're deepstriking you can't advance, so its moot there.

 

Basically if you teleport to get around d their crippling speed you cant even run, and if you don't, the Range still sucks

 

Edit: @prot the whole point to plasma is the overcharge. You should always support your shooting squads with rerolls to hit; a chaos lord deepstriking with or a DP moving up the field are both solid options.

 

Let's pretend without; two Meltas mathematically get .87 wounds on a t5-7 target. You've done no damage. 2 plasmas get you 1.7 wounds, 1.44 unsaved and 2 damage. Plasma is better as it more reliably generates wounds.

 

With rerolls of 1s Melta does 1.01 wounds and has a random range of damage, though a command point reroll averages you to around 4-6 damage. Plasma does 2.02 wounds, 1.68 after saves and 2 damage. Melta has the potential to be better just due to the fact that it wounds, but the command point is pretty important in tipping it.

 

So with math, we can see that against vehicles from a deepstrike (as you say you like to use them) that without rerolls to hit or stratagems the plasma is more consistent in its damage. You then can extrapolate the longer range, better synergy with legion trait and more shots to conclude that it's also more versatile. Thus "statistically superior".

 

You can't put the flail on the champ

Have we adjusted based on damage output on a target? Can we factor in the variables for that as well because its not just about wounds anymore.

 

Plasma does more reliable regular damage out put but the trade off might be better for damage from a melta

[Marshal van Trapp]

Personally if I were gearing blightlords to deal AT damage I'd give them all combi melta instead of just 2, especially if you're only using the one squad. If you are using them as AT, equip them as such, giving only 2 of them meltas is like putting 1 lascannon in a dev squad and giving the rest heavy bolters and calling it an anti tank hunting squad

[Marshal Loss]

 

Yea but here's the issue. If you're foot slogging, at best you're going 4+2d6/2. Most likely it's going to be 7", but that still gives you a fairly short threat range of 13" for double dice compared to 22" for rapidfire plasma. If you're deepstriking you can't advance, so its moot there.

 

Basically if you teleport to get around d their crippling speed you cant even run, and if you don't, the Range still sucks

 

Edit: @prot the whole point to plasma is the overcharge. You should always support your shooting squads with rerolls to hit; a chaos lord deepstriking with or a DP moving up the field are both solid options.

 

Let's pretend without; two Meltas mathematically get .87 wounds on a t5-7 target. You've done no damage. 2 plasmas get you 1.7 wounds, 1.44 unsaved and 2 damage. Plasma is better as it more reliably generates wounds.

 

With rerolls of 1s Melta does 1.01 wounds and has a random range of damage, though a command point reroll averages you to around 4-6 damage. Plasma does 2.02 wounds, 1.68 after saves and 2 damage. Melta has the potential to be better just due to the fact that it wounds, but the command point is pretty important in tipping it.

 

So with math, we can see that against vehicles from a deepstrike (as you say you like to use them) that without rerolls to hit or stratagems the plasma is more consistent in its damage. You then can extrapolate the longer range, better synergy with legion trait and more shots to conclude that it's also more versatile. Thus "statistically superior".

 

You can't put the flail on the champ

Have we adjusted based on damage output on a target? Can we factor in the variables for that as well because its not just about wounds anymore.

 

Plasma does more reliable regular damage out put but the trade off might be better for damage from a melta

 

 

He already factored that in.

[Kilofix]

Most people have screens in the first turn but if you have an opening second turn, etc. then an all Melta Deep Strike with Warptime (with say a Chaos Patrol Detach with TDA Chaos Sorc and Cultists) is not bad for killing especially tough vehicles or MCs.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Prot seems to like keeping his lists purely as deathguard. If you are running a jump pack sorc in an alternate detachment, why not just make the Blight Lords slaanesh terminators that can use the stratagem? Give them powerfists and they're the same points as a blight lord with a much higher offensive output

[Wolf Lord Loki]

 

He already factored that in.

My bad- i was tired and didnt read it properly

 

But i would agree with if you are tank hunting give the whole squad meltas. Also while everyone looks at the meltas at their under half range bonus they actually have a total range of 18 inches (only 6" less than the plasma)

 

If you have teleported in your guys over by the enemy you are already close enough to have some decent targets.

 

Worse case senario? You shoot at high value infanty targes before advancing closer to some tanks next turn. Some rough head maths suggests to me that you might do about 5 wounds on a terminator equivelent

[Marshal van Trapp]

I agree with Loki, the half range bonus is not nearly as important as it once was. If it dealt double damage within half range it would be different, but it is only effectively a re-roll equivalent. That's not nearly as important if you have a full squad of 5 meltas

[Prot]

Well my next game is coming up and I will swap to 3 x plasma and a blight launcher. I don’t think it will serve me as well in my meta but then again I don’t know my match ups ahead of time.

 

I do recall how much I used Cataphractii with Ultramarines and they didn’t have near the options, I’d have to use them as chaff clearing while charging with chainfists. Granted UM have a heck of a lot better shooty options, the point being Cataphractii is a decent platform for hostile territory.

 

Has anyone used Felthius’ squad? I’m assuming that it would be one way for us to take a 3 man squad (aside from Death shroud)

[Kilofix]

I just dropped 5 w/Combi-Melta. Hellblasters w/Auspex Scan killed 4. I retract my previous support for Melta.

 

Use Plasma, drop in outside of 12”. With Intractable we still get to Rapid.

[Prot]

I will try them but your situation doesn’t dissuade me from Melta at all. In theory you could have lost 4 plasma as well.

 

My preference of melta has nothing to do with dropping in front of infantry.

[SkimaskMohawk]

No, he's saying that because you can rapidfire in 18" you can out range the 12" auspex scan stratagem. In theory you could still lose them, if you were caught offguard by the stratagem, but that's like a critical screw up instead of a "I don't have any other choice because my range is bad"

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I will try them but your situation doesn’t dissuade me from Melta at all. In theory you could have lost 4 plasma as well.

 

My preference of melta has nothing to do with dropping in front of infantry.

I agree it sounds like the player got surprised by the strategem.

Yes you could rapid fire the plasma in the 12-18" zone but unless you take a lord or someone to provide a reroll of 1s while overcharging you wont kill that squad and they could just back off and they have the same rapid fire range as you but more movement

 

Compared with dropping at 12-18" shooting 4/5 meltas, denying an armour save and killing Primaris outright on a 2+ damage role.

Plus you can advance towards the enemy next turn while still shooting if they backed off

 

Dont give up after one bad experience- you could have lost them due to overcharging too!! ;-)

Edited January 3, 2018 by Wolf Lord Loki

[SkimaskMohawk]

There's so many mistakes in that paragraph loki.

 

Any unit thats a special weapon platform should be in range of a lord this edition. They're dirt cheap and boost the efficacy by a ton; I'd ask why there's not one next to a Melta squad same as a plasma one, perhaps more as meltas benefit from rerolls in relation to damage more than plasma against t5 and higher.

 

You compare the results of dropping out of strat range (12") saying plasma wouldn't kill the squad because you can't risk overheat and then the hellblasters kill you, then saying that if you do the same thing with Melta you can guarantee them dead.

 

First, you can't shoot with meltas if you drop out of 12".

 

Second you should hit 6-7 times with plasma, wound about 5-6, and kill about 5; their squad is either dead or half strength and will lose more to morale. You'd lose one of your own models on average but that's an acceptable trade up imo. Melta gets about 3 hits and should kill 3. I think the exact result is 4.5 wounds for Plasma and 2.75 for Melta, but the point is that you do more damage with plasma while losing less guys.

 

Thirdly the maximum threat range of melta is 17", while the max of rapidfire plasma is 22"; you don't need to run catch up if you just have a better range on your double tap than a highroll max range.

 

I have no idea what the loadout on the hellblasters were, the support they had or the number of them so I can't comment on how likely it is that he lost 4/5, but rolling 5/10 1s in a way that it kills each guy is something like 10,000 to 1 odds...it can't be worse than his squad getting nuked via stratagem

[Wolf Lord Loki]

For some reason ive been labouring under the assumption they had a range of 18"

 

I stand corrected! Total and utter brain fart!!