Characters and successor chapters aura?

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Finally bit the bullet and ordered He'Stan to add to my marines. Now the question I have is with 8th edition keywords, how does that technically work for successor chapters. I know in previous editions you could do the 'counts as' workaround, but 8th edition is a bit more locked down when it comes to aura abilities due to keywords.

 

So in the likes of Guillimen (or other ultramarine characters), his aura abilities only effect <Ultramarine> units, but does it also work for successor chapters of the Ultramarine geneseed? Same question goes for He'Stan, While he is Salamanders chapter and his aura is for <salamander> units, do successor chapters still benefit from aura abilities that are locked to chapters? So while my chapter, the Dragoons is a salamander successor, they would be locked out of his aura abilities technically because they are a different <chapter> keyword even though they are successor chapter?

 

I couldnt find anything in my searches (or I could have missed it in a FAQ) that was an official answer. I tend to go in the route of thinking that since successors have access to parent chapters unique vehicles (like BA and their successors have BAAL predators) they should have access to the parent chapter characters without issue, but keywords throw a wrench in the process. I know you can still take He'Stan in the list, but not having access to his aura does suck.

 

 

[Quixus]

They do not work on successors. Ultramarine is not Emperor's Pointy Sticks or whatever the successor chapter is called. The Ultramarine and Salamander are not in < > and so are not placeholders. The abilities only work if the unit has those exact keywords.

 

However there is nothing preventing you from painting your "Ultramarine" army in the colours of your favourite successor chapter.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

They do not work on successors. Ultramarine is not Emperor's Pointy Sticks or whatever the successor chapter is called. The Ultramarine and Salamander are not in < > and so are not placeholders. The abilities only work if the unit has those exact keywords.

 

However there is nothing preventing you from painting your "Ultramarine" army in the colours of your favourite successor chapter.

I would never besmirch my Primarch Vulkan with the likes of that disgusting Ultramarine iconography or taint my army list by using any of those blueberry characters, it was just a comparison example.

 

The reason why this question came to mind is that Successor chapters can use the chapter tactics and (from my understanding) relics of their parent chapters (in the same way that BA successors have access to BAAL predators and such), but the chapter keyword is the hanging point. Technically speaking successors use the same geneseed of their parent, but current rule set is that the chapter keyword is what effects the aura's. If you dont have the exact same Chapter Keyword, even if you are running a successor chapter. So even if you are playing Nova Marines, and you have Marneus in your list (for whatever reason), your nova marines wont get his aura ability even if they are a successor.

 

I guess its one of those things where the fluff and the rules kind of run counter to each other, even though in previous editions you could do things like 'counts as'.

[Quixus]

The reason why this question came to mind is that Successor chapters can use the chapter tactics and (from my understanding) relics of their parent chapters (in the same way that BA successors have access to BAAL predators and such), but the chapter keyword is the hanging point. Technically speaking successors use the same geneseed of their parent, but current rule set is that the chapter keyword is what effects the aura's. If you dont have the exact same Chapter Keyword, even if you are running a successor chapter. So even if you are playing Nova Marines, and you have Marneus in your list (for whatever reason), your nova marines wont get his aura ability even if they are a successor.

 

I guess its one of those things where the fluff and the rules kind of run counter to each other, even though in previous editions you could do things like 'counts as'.

By RAW if you make an army list in which the units have the Dragoons (I presume) keyword, not only can't Vulkan He'Stan's abilities affect the other units, you are also not building <CHAPTER> detachments and as such do not benefit from the chapter tactics, even though both chapter tactics give the exact same bonuses.

 

However there is no rule that you must paint your units in a certain way. So you could just write a list where all units have the Salamanders keyword, but just happen to look like Dragoons. That is the new version of Counts As. Just make the rules fit the fluff.

[Medicinal Carrots]

Successors can't use chapter specific Relics, Warlord Traits, or auras from special characters. They just get the Chapter Tactics and Stratagems. So if you want to run, say, Fire Hawks with Salamanders tactics, you can either pick Fire Hawks for your chapter and use Elam Courbray, or pick Salamanders and get the Salamanders characters/Relics/Warlord Traits, but can't effectively mix both. You could use Fire Hawks and Salamanders chapter units in the same detachment, but you wouldn't get Chapter Tactics or Stratagems from that detachment, and the auras still wouldn't cross over.

 

Fluffwise, successors are separate and independent organizations from their founding chapters. They don't train together day in and day out, may have different tactical or strategic mindsets, be organized differently, have differing cultures, etc, that all can affect how well they work together. So it makes sense that they can be used together in a combined force, but aren't quite as efficient when it comes to understanding and putting into practice the more subtle aspects of cooperation and organization you get when working within a single chapter. It's like a group of close friends who can say or do something small and know exactly how each other will react and know they'll be understood, vs a newbie to the group who won't get the in jokes or require a little more explanation to get up to speed.

[Schlitzaf]

The basic reason I believe is too prevent two Chapter Masters appearing in the same force (Dante and Seth being the most common example of how this could easily happen)

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

 

Fluffwise, successors are separate and independent organizations from their founding chapters. They don't train together day in and day out, may have different tactical or strategic mindsets, be organized differently, have differing cultures, etc, that all can affect how well they work together. So it makes sense that they can be used together in a combined force, but aren't quite as efficient when it comes to understanding and putting into practice the more subtle aspects of cooperation and organization you get when working within a single chapter. It's like a group of close friends who can say or do something small and know exactly how each other will react and know they'll be understood, vs a newbie to the group who won't get the in jokes or require a little more explanation to get up to speed.

While you arent wrong there, usually successor chapter will answer to/take orders from the parent chapter. Like DA/BA successors will return distress calls and take deployment orders from their parent chapter. Same for all the Ultramarine successors, will answer the emergency call of the ultramarines and take deployment orders from them, since legion chapters are on top of the hierarchy and successor chapters will usually answer to them.

[Quixus]

The basic reason I believe is too prevent two Chapter Masters appearing in the same force (Dante and Seth being the most common example of how this could easily happen)

You can achieve that without problem as long as both are in different detachements. Their abilities only affect the units with the same chapter keyword though.

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

The basic reason I believe is too prevent two Chapter Masters appearing in the same force (Dante and Seth being the most common example of how this could easily happen)

You can achieve that without problem as long as both are in different detachements. Their abilities only affect the units with the same chapter keyword though.

Which is fine sense the point likely was making sure that you could not have two units that provided full rerolls to your army (Ultras with Marnues and Gulliman are and exception. Gulliman coating 395 points likely a reason for that)

[Medicinal Carrots]

 

 

Fluffwise, successors are separate and independent organizations from their founding chapters. They don't train together day in and day out, may have different tactical or strategic mindsets, be organized differently, have differing cultures, etc, that all can affect how well they work together. So it makes sense that they can be used together in a combined force, but aren't quite as efficient when it comes to understanding and putting into practice the more subtle aspects of cooperation and organization you get when working within a single chapter. It's like a group of close friends who can say or do something small and know exactly how each other will react and know they'll be understood, vs a newbie to the group who won't get the in jokes or require a little more explanation to get up to speed.

While you arent wrong there, usually successor chapter will answer to/take orders from the parent chapter. Like DA/BA successors will return distress calls and take deployment orders from their parent chapter. Same for all the Ultramarine successors, will answer the emergency call of the ultramarines and take deployment orders from them, since legion chapters are on top of the hierarchy and successor chapters will usually answer to them.

 

That's also true of Guard regiments, chapters of differing origins, and various other forces as well. E.G. multiple chapters, including other first founding chapters like the Salamanders, recognizing and following the overall leadership of Blood Angels chapter master Dante at Armageddon. Answering to and taking orders from the leader of a separate force is one thing, being a part of that force and getting the benefit of familiarity is something different.

[Bro Castiel]

 

However there is no rule that you must paint your units in a certain way. So you could just write a list where all units have the Salamanders keyword, but just happen to look like Dragoons. That is the new version of Counts As. Just make the rules fit the fluff.

 

 

I agree with Quixus here. There is nothing wrong with using the <Salamanders> keyword but having the models painted as whatever successor you want.

 

Having said that, if a regular player changed keywords as rules became more favourable I think I would be calling cheese.

 

Cas

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

 

 

However there is no rule that you must paint your units in a certain way. So you could just write a list where all units have the Salamanders keyword, but just happen to look like Dragoons. That is the new version of Counts As. Just make the rules fit the fluff.

 

 

I agree with Quixus here. There is nothing wrong with using the <Salamanders> keyword but having the models painted as whatever successor you want.

 

Sounds good to me. I was looking for this kind of answer, since the rulebook and FAQ didnt have a strong interpretation for 'counts as' in this edition that I could find as it pertains to keywords (previous editions had better clarification for such things). I am not looking to powergame by throwing in all kinds of stuff into my list that doesn't make sense (funnily enough, my chapter prefers using plasma weapons so not too many units will be using He'Stan buff for flame/melta weapons).

 

Thanks.

[Bro Castiel]

I am all for making the rules fit the fluff of your chosen chapter. Mostly I do this by cutting certain rules so people dont claim cheese. Like my guard never use artillary because they are themed to a light infantry regiment. Few heavy tanks lots of infantry and snipers.

 

If people can see that you are genuinely trying to play in character and not gain an advantage, you'll be fine.

 

Have fun!

[Bronze Beast in the Dark]

Here is an army that was run as Raptors but they are a successor chapter. On Paper they are Raptors and use Raptors characters and Raven Guard stratagems and chapter tactics but he calls them Red Tigers. It was featured in a warhammer community article

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/09/04/nova-open-tournament-report-part-1/

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/29/the-nova-open-warhammer-40000-the-gauntlet-is-thrown/

 

 

I edited some strange typos :)

Edited January 7, 2018 by Ashriel

[Claws and Effect]

The whole keyword thing is to prevent death star shenanigans like we saw in 7th.

 

I'll use Raven Guard successors for my example.

 

If keywords weren't a thing I could:

 

Have Lias Issodon infiltrate a 10 man squad of Vanguard Veterans armed with thunder hammers and plasma pistols, Shrike, and Tyberos the Red Wake. Since they are all Infantry he could do that.

 

Shrike grants charge rerolls to all jump pack units, and he can charge first to disable Overwatch.

 

Lias adds 1" to all advance and charge rolls.

 

Tyberos adds 1 strength.

 

So, you'd have a unit of Vanguard with S10 hammers, that can reroll a charge up to 13" without fear of overwatch.

 

That's why successors can't use parent keywords, and vice versa.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

The whole keyword thing is to prevent death star shenanigans like we saw in 7th.

 

I'll use Raven Guard successors for my example.

 

If keywords weren't a thing I could:

 

Have Lias Issodon infiltrate a 10 man squad of Vanguard Veterans armed with thunder hammers and plasma pistols, Shrike, and Tyberos the Red Wake. Since they are all Infantry he could do that.

 

Shrike grants charge rerolls to all jump pack units, and he can charge first to disable Overwatch.

 

Lias adds 1" to all advance and charge rolls.

 

Tyberos adds 1 strength.

 

So, you'd have a unit of Vanguard with S10 hammers, that can reroll a charge up to 13" without fear of overwatch.

 

That's why successors can't use parent keywords, and vice versa.

I understand the why for keywords (and it does bring the end of most deathstars that have been around since 4th edition), I was just wondering how in 8th you could use the 'counts as' when it comes to keywords. I am not trying to run anything crazy, while I have some melta's and flamers, my chapter (the Dragoons) is kitted out with mostly plasma weapons (I even have an sicaris omega destroyer and salamanders contemptor on order that should be arriving tomorrow). I had ordered He'Stan and wanted to know how I would be able to run him in my army when it comes to keywords, especially since chapter masters are no longer a thing (I miss orbital bombardment, yeah I know its a 3 command point ability now but being able to take that standard even in small games was a great way to handle swarm armies).

 

Knowing I just need run them as <Salamanders> but have them done up in my chapter's paint scheme should be good enough for most situations, and if I was tournament inclined it should suffice.

[Ishagu]

Chapter Tactics and Keywords are not the same thing.

 

For example, Space Sharks use RG Chapter Tactics but they are not RG, so Shrike's auras wouldn't impact them for example.