Of BL Writers and Dialogue - what makes and breaks?

[Phoebus]

Phoebus, have you read many slang-heavy, jargon-heavy books that *work*? I know the Clockwork Orange is supposed to be a bit intense that way, and I recall being weirded out when first reading the Hobbit that Bilbo was narrating about spoons and handkerchiefs and kettles and things.

Those are two of the extremes for me.

 

On the one hand, I love that Burgess has his characters speak in their vernacular in A Clockwork Orange, even as I recognize he at times challenges the reader with it. In that sense, I’m a big fan of Abnett’s skill at introducing things that are either unique to the setting he’s writing, or described using obscure, antique words (which, again, require some work from the reader), or subtly related to something we understand. On the other hand, hobbits featuring so much of what is common to our society was jarring to me.

 

As far as the “wet growl” goes... I understood what Abnett was trying to convey (or at least what I think he was trying to convey), and didn’t think it merited such a negative reaction.

 

If you were to ask me what terms or turns of phrase aren’t too period-specific or dated, I think you seized on it yourself. What it really comes down to, I think, is picking things the readers themselves will identify (if only subconsciously) as timeless. “Heavens” works because it’s centuries old and carries a broad meaning that finds use where both the natural world and religion are concerned. “Mothballing” is mere decades old and specific in its function.

 

Incidentally, I think Space Marines (and certain other factions) might be a poor example to bring up when it comes to longevity of culture, language, etc. We’re talking about a group that are psychologically conditioned (brainwashed, really) to perform specific functions. If the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes have a weakness that’s not often explored (well, except for the Ultramarines, and then in a rather narrow area), it’s their inability to evolve.

 

Ultimately, though, it comes down to what you say: this is all very subjective. I’m just sharing what impacts my suspension of disbelief. I imagine other people feel the same, but I don’t think it’s a universal thing.

[DukeLeto69]

There's another good one in William King's Fall of Macharius:

 

'Nice to see you haven't lost your touch,' Anton said. 'You can still hit the side of a barn door at short range.'

'Do you even know what a barn is?' I asked.

'It's an ancient device,' he said. 'From the Dark Age of Technology. That's where the saying comes from. It was most likely a war machine of some sort. Maybe a tank.'

 

You can truly see how much has been lost.

Yeah I like little references like this. Not too many but a smattering. I do think Abnett is e best at introducing words and terminology that makes the setting feel just a bit different to real world. Obviously things like FETH came out of necessity because BL won't allow swearing in their books (or not too much anyway) but it works brilliantly because we readers know what the work is "meant to be".

 

I think the fact that so many of Abnett's words and phrases have now become canon in 40k shows how well they work.

 

I think BL 30/40k books work best when some flavour/colour is added to dialogue to set them slightly apart from real world. Not Clockwork Orange distant, that would be too much for me, but as I said a smattering is nice.

 

Re: wet leopard growl... That got derided not because it was an awful phrase but because Abnett totally overused it in Propsero Burns (like almost every page) although he wrote the book right around the time he was fighting his newly diagnosed epilepsy and the book was a struggle to write.

 

The only time I got a bit "huh?" With Abnett's work is with Pariah. It remains one of my favourite books by him but I wasn't sure I liked the reference to old Earth language (Old Franc) having survived (to scholars) for 40,000 years ish. Was no biggie but was a bit of a "huh, hmmm, not sure of that"

[rendingon1+]

About swearing - IIRC in Perturabo there was quite a few f words. Has something changed?

[bluntblade]

You sure that was "fugging", the standard BL fruitcake substitute?

[DukeLeto69]

Been thinking on this a bit more.

 

I like it when different "races/species" have distinct voices and I include that distinction between human and transhuman/Astartes.

 

I can't say that all authors do this but pretty certain some do... Astartes should IMO speak in a very formal way. They should always say things in full so "I am not sure" vs "I'm not sure". I think they should have little or no emotion and should be totally business like. Trouble with that is as a writer I reckon that is very restrictive and would be very hard to make relatable characters (although I think Astartes should possibly not be relatable by us the reader).

 

I think early on Abnett stayed away from Astartes because of that very reason (pretty certain I have seen interviews with him where he said that rather than me making that up). He could not relate to them or give them a unique voice. It is also, I suspect, one of the reasons he surrounded them with human characters and introduced the idea of the Rememberancers in Horus Rising. To allow for a human perspective/POV about the legendary/great deeds.

 

Taking sentence structure and formality etc further, it would have been cool (In think) if HH era characters (certainly Astartes and Primarchs) simply spoke differently with a different vocabulary to 40k counterparts. Kind of how the Greeks or Romans had fewer words in their lexicon compared to modern day Greek or Italian. It made the language (to our ears once translated) sound extremely formal.

 

Clearly that would be some undertaking by an author!

[Marshal Rohr]

When things are excessively complex. For example, the Emperor’s laboratory being accessible only by a constantly shifting labyrinth. You can tell the authors want to give something gravitas or severity and have argued with themselves about it. A good example of the right way to do it is how ADB described the imperial webway. It was complex and esoteric to cross into the new nether-dimension and then once inside it was a bunch of roadways. Perfect. No need for weird :cuss. Just simple engineering in a sci-fi setting.

[bluntblade]

I feel you hit the wrong thread there

[mc warhammer]

 

Re: wet leopard growl... That got derided not because it was an awful phrase but because Abnett totally overused it in Propsero Burns (like almost every page) although he wrote the book right around the time he was fighting his newly diagnosed epilepsy and the book was a struggle to write.

 

i feel like it has to be more than just its overuse: black legion repeats "vindicta" at least as often, if not more.

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

Re: wet leopard growl... That got derided not because it was an awful phrase but because Abnett totally overused it in Propsero Burns (like almost every page) although he wrote the book right around the time he was fighting his newly diagnosed epilepsy and the book was a struggle to write.

 

i feel like it has to be more than just its overuse: black legion repeats "vindicta" at least as often, if not more.

 

 

Not saying that he's right, but one is a term with a complex meaning which is inseparable from the plot of the novel in which it appears, the other is not.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

Re: wet leopard growl... That got derided not because it was an awful phrase but because Abnett totally overused it in Propsero Burns (like almost every page) although he wrote the book right around the time he was fighting his newly diagnosed epilepsy and the book was a struggle to write.

 

i feel like it has to be more than just its overuse: black legion repeats "vindicta" at least as often, if not more.

 

 

Not saying that he's right, but one is a term with a complex meaning which is inseparable from the plot of the novel in which it appears, the other is not.

 

 

well yeah, that goes with what i'm suggesting; that the reaction goes beyond simple repetition. i didn't offer up any expansion myself because i'm more interested in other people's thoughts.  

[bluntblade]

I liked the vindicta thing

[mc warhammer]

i liked both vindicta and wet leopard growl *shrug*

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

 

 

Re: wet leopard growl... That got derided not because it was an awful phrase but because Abnett totally overused it in Propsero Burns (like almost every page) although he wrote the book right around the time he was fighting his newly diagnosed epilepsy and the book was a struggle to write.

 

i feel like it has to be more than just its overuse: black legion repeats "vindicta" at least as often, if not more.

 

 

Not saying that he's right, but one is a term with a complex meaning which is inseparable from the plot of the novel in which it appears, the other is not.

 

 

well yeah, that goes with what i'm suggesting; that the reaction goes beyond simple repetition. i didn't offer up any expansion myself because i'm more interested in other people's thoughts.  

 

 

I was agreeing with what you said and addressing Leto, not disputing it. Re: your interests...good for you.

 

In any case, for the sake of trivia, wet leopard growl appears 16 times to the 13 appearances of vindicta (14 if a chapter title is counted).

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

 

 

Re: wet leopard growl... That got derided not because it was an awful phrase but because Abnett totally overused it in Propsero Burns (like almost every page) although he wrote the book right around the time he was fighting his newly diagnosed epilepsy and the book was a struggle to write.

 

i feel like it has to be more than just its overuse: black legion repeats "vindicta" at least as often, if not more.

 

 

Not saying that he's right, but one is a term with a complex meaning which is inseparable from the plot of the novel in which it appears, the other is not.

 

 

well yeah, that goes with what i'm suggesting; that the reaction goes beyond simple repetition. i didn't offer up any expansion myself because i'm more interested in other people's thoughts.  

 

 

I was agreeing with you, not disagreeing. My comment was directed at Leto

 

 

i didn't think you were disagreeing as such, i thought it was a good point and was adding my support in my usual confused way

[bluntblade]

However guys, we have strayed some way off topic

[Ascanius]

 

Re: wet leopard growl... That got derided not because it was an awful phrase but because Abnett totally overused it in Propsero Burns (like almost every page) 

 

Prospero Burns is 416 pages in paperback and there's only 16 instances, so that's once every 26 pages. 

[DukeLeto69]

 

Re: wet leopard growl... That got derided not because it was an awful phrase but because Abnett totally overused it in Propsero Burns (like almost every page)

 

 

Prospero Burns is 416 pages in paperback and there's only 16 instances, so that's once every 26 pages. ;)

I have lost the plot trying to follow who is saying what on this thread now! So a possibly tangential answer...

 

First time I read the word Wet Leopard Growl I thought it was kind of cool and sort of made sense. It was good colour/flavour writing. However, it got very tired after so many times and actually started to cause eye rolls and distract form what I think is an otherwise excellent book. However, Abnett gets a pass from me for two reasons (not that I am in a position to give a successful author a pass anyway)...

 

1. As I said above (and all of you BL fans probably know) DA was diagnosed with Epilepsy while writing this book (hence delayed release as it was supposed to come out before or together with Thousand Sons) and

 

2. Well it is Dan Abnett after all and he has more than enough incredible books behind him!

[mc warhammer]

not quite a dialogue thing, but also not worth starting a whole thread over, does anyone else feel like there could be slightly less references to chess in 30k?

 

or even expand it out to other excellent strategy games like go

 

or uno

[Fire Golem]

Go is mentioned in the Scars books.

[bluntblade]

Played, no less

[mc warhammer]

how’d i miss that? i do skip big chunks of bl books. bad mc warhammer.

[Fire Golem]

how’d i miss that? i do skip big chunks of bl books. bad mc warhammer.

Don’t worry, I’m pretty sure UNO hasn’t come up yet.

[mc warhammer]

 

how’d i miss that? i do skip big chunks of bl books. bad mc warhammer.

Don’t worry, I’m pretty sure UNO hasn’t come up yet.

that does make me feel better

[bluntblade]

how’d i miss that? i do skip big chunks of bl books. bad mc warhammer.

I'm especially surprised, as the Khan plays Ilya in at least one scene - it's front and center. Occurs to me that it's a good example of a dialogue scene which gives its characters something to do while they're talking, and thus gives the scene some visual interest.

[mc warhammer]

 

how’d i miss that? i do skip big chunks of bl books. bad mc warhammer.

I'm especially surprised, as the Khan plays Ilya in at least one scene - it's front and center. Occurs to me that it's a good example of a dialogue scene which gives its characters something to do while they're talking, and thus gives the scene some visual interest.

 

 

have to admit, the only writers that can manage my adhd and have me read every paragraph and chapter are adb and abnett.

 

i'll go back and reread though; go is amazing game.

 

now...uno...