Help for a Newly-risen Plaguebearer

[Skeggold]

Hello all,

 

I have been lurking around this forum for a while now and decided to enlist the help of the more seasoned cadavers to help with my re-entry to the world of Warhammer 40k. 

I was an avid collector up unitl 6 or 7 years ago where I ran out of time and stopped collecting. I have recently resurfaced and would like to carry on where I left off; with a Death Guard army. 

 

My idea, which is mostly due to fluff reasons than any knowledge of how to play the game in its current state, is to have a core force of Death Guard which are backed up by some renegades and heretics. I have heard a lot of bad press about the new ruleset for the R&H's, but I am keen to make the combo work. 

So, my question really is how would I best use this combination? At the moment I have the Dark Imperium DG set, along with a squad of old Death Guard models, a Terminator Lord and a Rhino. As well as this, I put some fair effort into making a Rogue Psyker squad from a plethora of old bitz I had lying around. Any and all help is appreciated!

 

TL:DR; Renegade and Heretics support element to a Death Guard army. How would this work?

 

~ Skeggold

[Kilofix]

Complicated question but I’ll try to start addressing it.

 

1.First - you’ll need to decide if you want anything other than Cultists for your R&H

 

This is because you’ll only get DeathGuard keyword bonuses of Inexorable Advance and Plague Host if ALL units in your main Detachment are DeathGuard. There are Cultists that you can take from the DG Codex with the DG keyword, so if all you want to add are Cultists, then you can get by with just one Detachment.

 

Othewise you’ll need a separate second Detachment for your R&H.

 

 

 

2. Now, back to your first DG Detachment. A good start is straight DI as a Battalion Detachment with:

 

Lord of Contagion - which you can proxy as Typhus (for Psyker and extra bonus to Poxwalkers)

Plaguecaster (more Psyker’ness)

Blightbringer (to make Pox move faster)

 

Poxwalkers

And however many Plague Marine squads you prefer and have minis for (best specials are Plasma or Blightlaunchers)

 

Blight Drone (this thing is unkillable)

 

Then, if you’re just sticking with Cultists as your R&H, you can put them in the Troop slot in this same DG Detachment

 

 

 

 

3. Next, if you are doing a separate R&H Detachment then you could start with a basic Patrol Detachment of either:

 

If from Chaos Codex:

A Sorceror (for Warp Time and Death Hex)

Cultists

 

If from FW-IA Renegade Guard Codex:

A Malefic Lord (Psyker again)

Cultists

 

 

 

4. Then you should start thinking about adding more units that can cover your ‘gaps’.

 

By this point, you have plenty of infantry and Psykers but will be lacking armor.

 

Options for armor and anti-armor would be:

 

If DG Codex (first Detachment):

More BlightDrones (my favorites)

Myphitic Blighthaulers

Plague Burst Crawlers

Predators

Plasma or Melta Terminators

 

If Chaos Codex (second Detachment):

Obliterators

Forge/Maulerfiends

Havocs

 

If Renegade Guard (second Detachment):

Chimeras

Basilisks

Wyverns

Hellhounds

Leman Russ

 

 

 

5. After that you can start looking at more fluffy units like Mutants or Ogryn from Renegade Guard or even Nurgle Daemons as a third Detachment

 

 

I’ll stop here for now. Others will probably chime in.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Kilofix

[N1SB]

Welcome, Brother, I'm actually using the Renegades & Heretics list to support my Nurglings, a themed army, so our interests align.  Just to show I'm not lying:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340376-patient-zero-chaos-daemons-astra-militarum-artillery-army/page-2?do=findComment&comment=4923962

 

(This was crafted before both the Death Guard codex and the Chapter Approved 2017 books which kinda hurt all Forgeworld things, including R&H.)

 

+++++

 

An important disclaimer to preface this discussion: R&H is not optimal as a standalone army, but offers interesting tools when allied to other Chaos forces.

 

I mention this to provide context for the bad press you mentioned.  On its own as a complete army, R&H is basically outperformed by Loyalist equivalents.  Most of R&H, as you probably know, are just the Chaos equivalents of their Loyalist counterparts, but the Loyalists units have special rules (such as Regimental Doctrines) that upgrade them across the board.  As a result, a pure R&H army is often best served as just a counts-as Imperial Guard one to access those benefits.

 

However, in your situation where you have mainly a Death Guard army and just want to draw from the toolbox that is R&H, there might be some good options.  For now, let's deal with how you draw from them within 8th ed rules, then it'll be a further discussion of what.

 

+++ HOW to combine DG and R&H  +++

 

Understanding you're returning to The Hobby, but are still new to 8th ed, let me just lay out a framework to help you back on-board.  You'll need:

 

0. 8th ed Rulebook - please take note of the "Detachments" section

1. Death Guard Codex - obviously

2. Imperial Armour: Forces of the Astra Militarum (i.e. Imperial Guard) - for the R&H army list (not the Imperial Armour Chaos book)

3. Astra Militarum (i.e. IG) Codex - not absolutely necessary, the R&H army list often lists Imperial Guard options and refers you to their Loyalist book

4. This chart below:

 

 

I'll briefly explain this for a returning player.

 

The Force Organisation Chart of previous editions have been replaced by a much more flexible modular system known as Detachments.  So the previous mandatory 1 HQ + 2 Troops has been replaced by many other options, such as you can take 1 HQ + 3 Elites or 1 HQ + 3 Heavy Support, and those count as a complete Detachment.  It's really great for you as you can cherry-pick units you want to take from each list.  Then you can take all of those and put them together as one army.

 

The one thing to keep in mind is, usually, a Detachment purely of one faction, like all Death Guard, gets special rules across the Detachment, like the DG Legion Tactic.  Usually, that's a substantial benefit so it behooves you to think not just what you'll take, but HOW you'll organise them.

 

In you case, from what you've described, you'll probably take at least a Death Guard Detachment with your Terminator Lord and Plague Marines w/ Rhino and the Dark Imperium set and stuff, then a SEPARATE Detachment of R&H.  It's no problem, you'll take what you want to take, it's just structure of the deal.

 

(Counter-example - my themed army took basically a R&H Commander as HQ, Nurglings as Troops, then some Artillery from IG which R&H can access/steal.  Even though Nurglings are technically in the DG Codex...this mish-mash prevented me from using the DG Legion Tactics, which allows DG Infantry and Dreadnoughts to improve their ranged weapons.  But that didn't bother me, because since all I had were Nurglings who don't use guns, but it will matter for you.)

 

Now, getting the fundamental stuff, like the Death Guard Codex and the R&H army list, you probably totally understand.  But why did I mention the Astra Militarum Codex and post that chart?  It's just to give you the latest options.  Due to how army list releases are staggered, unit rules get updated even though it's basically the same model.  It depends on what you want to take, like if you want to, say, add Leman Russ tanks.  Their rules have changed, all that above is just to help you access the latest and best version.

 

In short, I'm not saying "you NEED these", I'm saying "these are your options" and they are many.  Just wanted you to be aware of the rules and how they benefit you.

 

+++ WHAT to take +++

 

This is a harder question, for both good reasons and bad reasons.

 

The good reasons for why it's actually difficult to complement a DG army is that the DG Codex has options other Chaos armies don't.  For example, some Chaos Space Marine armies might want to look to R&H for, say, certain tanks.  Iron Warriors might really want to look into R&H to get some siege weapons.  However, DG have their own Artillery in the form of the new Plague Burst Crawler.  I guess with DG being the starter army GW wanted to focus on, you got some really nice toys.

 

The bad reasons is that R&H, alongside a lot of Forgeworld units, recently got nerfed in the recently released Chapter Approved 2017, a new book with new rules and points costs.  A lot of Forgeworld things just spiked in points cost.  To point to one prominent example, which directly relates to you with your Psyker conversion, is that there was a really good HQ Psyker called a Malefic Lord.  It was very competitive and it went up 3 times in points cost...which IMHO was an over-reaction.

 

So previously, I think I would point to 3 interesting things in the R&H book that were worth considering for other Chaos armies:

 

1. the Malefic Lord Psyker - now not as competitive because it went up 3 times in points cost in Chapter Approved 2017

2. their access to IG tanks - it happens DG has some really cool tank options already

3. Marauder Squad Snipers - they have an Elite unit called Marauders, that can access Sniper Rifles, iirc still the only source for Chaos Snipers

 

There is a new thing that may be of interest, it's the Valkyrie transport.  DG is relatively slow, so a Flyer like the Valkyrie that could drop Troops can be useful.  I'm still not convinced by that myself, it's just one of my friends used it with great affect in a game this weekend.

 

For your converted models, there is still a Rogue Psyker Coven of five 3-wound psykers per unit, but can only fire off 1 psychic power for the whole squad.  All together they basically cost as much as a Chaos Sorcerer, so not sure if this is a good choice, especially since they're not characters so they can be targeted.  But they're still 15 wounds with an invulnerable save.

 

+++ An Alternative Take +++

 

I almost wonder...with the Chaos Daemons Codex coming out, and the fact you converted your Rogue Psykers yourself, would you consider using them as, say, Heralds of Nurgle instead?  Like if they look particularly diseased.  There might be other options.  They might march with a horde of Plaguebearers to represent Renegades that allied with DG and became infected with Nurgle's Rot.  That'd be a neat conversion project of Imperial Guardsmen gradually becoming Plaguebearers.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

TL;DR - Detachments will let you take DG + whatever as separate modules in the same army, but there are some R&H limitations due to recent points nerfing, maybe thinking about a Guardsmen-turning-into-Daemons project?

[Skeggold]

Wow, thank you both for the very detailed and helpful replies. Useful ideas for where I am ultimately going to go with my DG detachment, so thank you both for that.


@N1SB: I love the backstory you have going for your army that you linked. I am interested to see what you will do next! As for the Chaos Daemons detachment idea, I may have to unashamedly rob that idea; it sounds great. The Pysker squad I made are mostly comprised of old tomb king chariot riders and look delightfully disgusting, so I could definitely see them as Heralds. I am planning on doing a WIP thread when I am a bit further along, so watch this space. 

So, I think for now my best bet is to focus on getting my DG detachment fleshed out and to wait and see how the Daemons Codex shapes up. 

Again, thank you both for the help, I do appreciate the time you have taken to help out a noob! 

~Skeggold
 

[Skeggold]

Hello

Quick update to my progress; going to be attempting to take part in some beginner battles at my local GW, and was wondering if you festering fellows would let me know what you think of this setup?
 

Patrol Detachment (Chaos - Death Guard) [29 PL, 460pts]

 

HQ

 

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 126pts] Selections: 6. Arch-Contaminator, Combi-bolter, Plague Wind, Plaguebringer, Putrescent Vitality, Warlord

 

Elites

 

Plague Surgeon [4 PL, 65pts] Selections: Balesword

 

Troops

 

Plague Marines [7 PL, 99pts]

 

Plague Champion Selections: Boltgun, Plaguesword

3x Plague Marine w/ boltgun

Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon Selections: Plasma gun

 

Plague Marines [7 PL, 110pts]

 

Plague Champion Selections: Boltgun, Plague knife, Power fist

3x Plague Marine w/ boltgun

Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon Selections: Plasma gun

 

Poxwalkers [3 PL, 60pts]

 

Selections: 10x Poxwalker

Cheers!

EDIT: here is a link to my WIP if people are interested 
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343249-the-fetid-hand/

Edited January 11, 2018 by Skeggold

[Kilofix]

I would drop the Surgeon and take a cheap Chaos Lord for the reroll 1 to hit, as well as giving you a Battalion Detachment.

[Skeggold]

I forgot to mention that it's capped at 30 Power level, so unfortunately I wouldn't be afford it! 

 

EDIT: Sorry, didn't realise it was only 5 points; I could definitely do that, would prefer to take the one in terminator armour though due to the models I have available (and for fluff reasons). The new list would be;  

 

HQ

 

Lord of Contagion [7 PL, 130] Selections: Warlord, Living Plague, Plaguereaper, The Suppurating Plate

 

Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 111pts] Selections: , Combi-bolter, Plague Wind, Power Maul, 

 

Troops

 

Plague Marines [7 PL, 99pts]

 

Plague Champion Selections: Boltgun, Plaguesword

3x Plague Marine w/ boltgun

Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon Selections: Plasma gun

 

Plague Marines [7 PL, 110pts]

 

Plague Champion Selections: Boltgun, Plague knife, Power fist

3x Plague Marine w/ boltgun

Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon Selections: Plasma gun

 

Poxwalkers [3 PL, 60pts]

 

Selections: 10x Poxwalker

Edited January 12, 2018 by Skeggold

[Prot]

I love the Plague Surgeon and use him often, but I think it's a solid move to the Lord for reasons mentioned. The re-roll bubble of 1's is great to have. The list looks good! You have some flexibility there, and some different units to try out. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

[Skeggold]

Thanks mate. I love the idea of the plague surgeon but I think I will manage my excitation for now and just try to learn how to play 8th edition. Running before walking springs to mind!

[Skeggold]

So I finally managed to get to my first game, and had the list stated above except for I swapped out the LoC for a standard Chaos lord due to being over the PL. I was set against a Grey Knights force who brought two squads of 5 Strike Squads, a Venerable Dreadnought and Castellan Crowe. 

It did not go horrendously for me, but in the end I did lose. 

 

The main problem I found was taking out the dreadnought, as I had few special weapons due to model restrictions. I did take it down to 1 wound, but it single-handedly lascannon'ed a squad of PMs and then beat my two HQs to dust with its power fist. Ouch. Coupled with the ridiculous amount of psykers coming at me, I had to split make a judgement call on which abilities I would attempt to deny, and was left slightly shell-shocked when Castellan opened a doom void and swallowed 3 plague marines and 6 poxwalkers into it. Ouch number 2.

 

Surprisingly, I performed well in melee combat with the strike squads. I think if I had just a bit more special weapons punch I would have been able to weather the storm. At the end of the game, there was a dreadnought with 1 wound left and a squad of 3 grey knights. 

I found that the poxwalkers did very little in such a small game, as I simply couldn't bring the numbers to the table. So, I've got a new list; let me know what you think.

 

•                HQ
  • Sorcerer in Terminator Armour

    Selections: Combi-bolter, Curse of the Leper, Force stave, Miasma of Pestilence

• Elites
  • Noxious Blightbringer

    Selections: Dolorous Knell, Plasma pistol

  • Plague Surgeon

    Selections: 6. Arch-Contaminator, Balesword, Warlord

• Troops
  • Plague Marines
    • Plague Champion

      Selections: Plague knife, Plasma gun, Power fist

    • 2x Plague Marine w/ boltgun
    • Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon

      Selections: Blight launcher

    • Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon

      Selections: Blight launcher

  • Plague Marines
    • Plague Champion

      Selections: Plague knife, Plasma pistol, Power fist

    • 2x Plague Marine w/ boltgun
    • Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon

      Selections: Blight launcher

    • Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon

      Selections: Plasma gun