Will 'Oldtype' Marines be completely replaced by Primaris?

[Firepower]

The simplest answer for why I dislike Primaris is that they represent the one thing that never belonged in 40k: hope.

[Blindhamster]

BA have always had hope as a thing for them, something big S has been characterised through the heresy novels with too.

 

In deathwatch their unique oath is oath of hope...

 

So they fit in with me just perfect haha.

 

Though the codex does suggest they aren't clear of the curse yet...

[Claws and Effect]

@Boldthreat:

 

Primaris can't wear any of the hundreds of thousands of suits of ancient power armor out there.

 

Master of the Forge: "Hey, what do you want me to do with this armor our revered former Chapter Master wore in his Tactical squad days?"

Chapter Master: "Throw it in the incinerator. We don't have any use for the old stuff anymore."

 

Not even a little. If a chapter stops respecting their legacy by discarding all the equipment that has significance to them, they stop being Space Marines. This isn't like the real world military where most of their gear is made by the lowest bidder. Some of that stuff is thousands of years old and has been used by some of the chapter's greatest heroes.

 

There have been stories of chapters that made assaults on space hulks and lost dozens of men just to recover a single suit of Terminator armor.

 

There is absolutely no way they'd let all this gear that has significance to them just sit and rot. They're still going to recruit people that can continue to bring honor to the chapter by taking that gear into battle where it belongs.

[Race Bannon]

Man, FP is on fire lately.  Thank you for concisely explaining what's been gnawing at me about them ...

[Schlitzaf]

The simplest answer for why I dislike Primaris is that they represent the one thing that never belonged in 40k: hope.

Firepower, that is what Marines are. Marines are Hope. We are the Angels of Death and Instruments of His Will. Hope belongs to 40K just as much as despair and hopelessness. Without having Hope the latter means nothing.

 

The whole concept of miracles with Sisters and units like Legion of the Damned are exactly that. Hope makes the feeling of hopelessness matter. The Salamanders arriving at Helsreach and turning the tide with their drop pods.

 

The Emperor having hope and faith in his sons is exactly why Horus treachery have so much meaning. Primaris represent and bring hope to where there was none. But hope is just that hope. An emotion meant to uplift downtrodden. And give reason to live.

 

If the downtrodden and hopelessness were that no end in sight. It would have no meaning. Primaris restore Hope. Hope was always their, its the reason why the 1st Company of Ultra fought to the last. It’s why Grimaldus sent his Techmarine to awaken Oberon.

 

It’s why chapters like Astral Knights pay the ultimate price. If there wasn’t hope or faith what they did made a better tomorrow they wouldn’t pay that price. If you want to argue that Primaris are noblebright or otherwise. But saying that they brought Hope?

 

Hope was always their. You cannot have darkness without light. And most of all. You need hope to give despair meaning. (Apparently I am on pro Primaris tirades today)

[Firepower]

 

The simplest answer for why I dislike Primaris is that they represent the one thing that never belonged in 40k: hope.

Firepower, that is what Marines are. Marines are Hope. We are the Angels of Death and Instruments of His Will. Hope belongs to 40K just as much as despair and hopelessness. Without having Hope the latter means nothing.

 

 

Marines are the ultimate militant arm of an uncaring and ruthless galaxy-wide dictatorship.  There is a reason the Salamanders' regard for the Imperium's citizenry is considered a remarkable idiosyncrasy.  It's atypical in an Imperium that really doesn't give a damn about its citizens beyond the demand that tithes be paid and worship is owed to the Emperor in some form or another.

 

Different perspectives.  Mine is the rather typical 'old' understanding of the fluff.  Like I said, I ignore the new stuff.  Paragon heroes of justice and virtue in a good versus evil setting are not the Marines I know and love.  There was (generally speaking, as there were exceptions to the rule) no light in Grimdark Classic.  Light was supplied by the ideals and morals of the reader, while the actors on stage were just different flavors of cruel, uncaring, evil and brutal.  So, I ignore that new spin.  Simple as that.

[Schlitzaf]

I mean a Marine need not be paragon of goodness to be a bringer of hope. He represents hope and the divine instrument of Emperor’s will. Simply by coming, a Marine inspires (either fear or hope). Shows to the common man that the Emperor ‘cares’.

 

Marines have honestly always been about hope. They represent humanities finest and our ability to matter. In larger sense they are why the 40k Universe is 40k and not the Cthuhlu Mythos. Because they represent are abilities to fight what goes bump in the night. The existence of the Space Marine or any Astartes is Hope.

[Firepower]

I mean a Marine need not be paragon of goodness to be a bringer of hope. He represents hope and the divine instrument of Emperor’s will. Simply by coming, a Marine inspires (either fear or hope). Shows to the common man that the Emperor ‘cares’.

 

 

I can't remember the comic, but there was one where the Templars show up to human planet to purge the unclean, as they do.  It was from the perspective of an Imperial citizen.  The Templars only cared that they kill the enemy.  They didn't care about the citizenry actually living there, only that they kill the unclean, and they didn't care that the lives of the citizenry after the war were effectively ruined by the damage inflicted in the war.  The narrator wasn't inspired by the Templars, he was terrified.

 

If you want to believe otherwise, good on you.  It's up to you how to interpret fluff, and which fluff sources you internalize.  I prefer the darker, brutal version over the idealistic fluff 40k has leaned towards in recent years.

[Schlitzaf]

“Angel of Death” not exactly something I expect to be inspiring. But the point isn’t what the average citizen in one sense sees. The average citizen likely never even sees an Astartes. But for the setting they represent hope, because they represent why Humanity isn’t the Humanity in Lovecraft Mythos. They like the Titan Legions and nameless millions among the Imperial Gaurd, are the case of Humanity being able to fight the Cthuhlu. The hordes of daemon are cut down by Bolter fire. Instead of being unable as a race to stop that which goes bump we can fight back.

 

Astartes are representation of why Humanity are not simply cattle be harvested by the Necrons or dinner for the Tyranids, little more than playthings for capricious gods and races like the Eldar. While it’s not the Astartes alone, whom stop the previously listed threats. They are representations that we can fight back. It’s why Speciality Organizations that are tailored to specific threats are Astartes. Like the Deathwatch and Grey Knights. For the average joe, Marines are not Hope inspiring. Neither are Primaris really. But for the human race, as a whole, the Astartes are hope.

 

Because they showcase we can fight for our right to life. And it’s why an Astartes fall to Chaos is impactful because he represents humanity Collective hopes and dreams.

[Wargamer]

 

I mean a Marine need not be paragon of goodness to be a bringer of hope. He represents hope and the divine instrument of Emperor’s will. Simply by coming, a Marine inspires (either fear or hope). Shows to the common man that the Emperor ‘cares’.

 

 

I can't remember the comic, but there was one where the Templars show up to human planet to purge the unclean, as they do.  It was from the perspective of an Imperial citizen.  The Templars only cared that they kill the enemy.  They didn't care about the citizenry actually living there, only that they kill the unclean, and they didn't care that the lives of the citizenry after the war were effectively ruined by the damage inflicted in the war.  The narrator wasn't inspired by the Templars, he was terrified.

 

If you want to believe otherwise, good on you.  It's up to you how to interpret fluff, and which fluff sources you internalize.  I prefer the darker, brutal version over the idealistic fluff 40k has leaned towards in recent years.

 

This is something I don't see echoed quite often enough, and I'm guilty myself of ignoring it - the coming of Space Marines can be as much a curse as a blessing.

 

Tactica Imperium had the Iron Snakes basically destroying the mining colony that asked them for aid in order to defeat the Dark Eldar plaguing the sub-sector. Their objective was, in effect, opposed to that of the people they "saved".

[DogWelder]

To be honest I'd say the Space Marines are ultimate pragmatists. They choose to complete the mission as efficiently as possible-to safeguard humanity against the perils of the universe and destroy its enemies. What separates them is how they choose to accomplish this mission.

 

The Salamanders choose to lean more towards the former objective and try to save as many individual humans as possible. This fault in this is that they don't realize that humanity's greatest resource is its manpower and its often better to have a high death toll and defeat a great enemy who would inflict much greater harm later on.

 

The Ultramarines look at the grander scheme and try to create a meritocratic and productive society overseen by them and can both take care of itself and destroy its enemies. The fault in this is that it takes them away from the battlefield for a substantial amount of time and can have them be mired in politics and societal management rather than fighting the enemy.

 

The Black Templars forget about the humans altogether and focus on destroying the enemy without a care for humanity at all. The fault in this is that they forget that human support is often critical for a successful SM campaign (evidenced by the first Battle for the Ork Moon during the Beast Arises series where the withdrawal of Imperial Navy assets forced the BT fleet to suffer heavy casualties and retreat).

[Schlitzaf]

Fire and War, I think, you and I are thinking about hope in two different contexts. But I think that is a discussion worth another thread (which I shall make now/shortly)

[Kinstryfe]

The bits about Astartes not caring for the humans they are meant to protect is one way in which it is shown that the modern Space Marines have become something less than what they were originally designed to be. During the Heresy it was considered a tremendous scandal that humans were hurt when Horus was being rushed for medical aid, and one of The Lion's biggest flaws was said to be his utter pragmatism and disregard for damage done to bystanders by his ultra-effectice tactics. The Astartes were supposed to be hope for humanity, the avenging angels of the Emperor to conquer the Galaxy in the name of Mankind, but somewhere in the following 10,000 years that changed, and they became something less human and more single minded in their purpose. That's the tragedy, and probably a part of what Guilliman dislikes about what the Astartes have become. They've become more brutally efficient, but lost their ties to humanity in the process.

[Lord_Caerolion]

i really don't buy that it's a logistics issue. Remember, call had 10,000 years to not just put these guys together, but also design, manufacture and equip them for this task. I absolutely believe the new chapters and the reinforced chapters were equipped with enough equipment to be viable.

 

And I get that many people want to believe that in the 40k world, superstition and backwards thinking would cause many chapters to recoil from Primaris and their use... but isn't this kind of the point? The reawakening of Guilliman has changed the Space Marines. This isn't some guy bearing false gifts. This is a Primarch, A mythological being in his own right, alive, bringing new equipment and practices and dispelling mythology when and where he can. All of his sons would embrace everything he does... religiously. The other genelines would also toe the line out of reverent respect as well. The Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists being prime examples. Dark Imperium clearly states that 97 percent of the Chapters accept the Primaris.

 

At the risk of dragging this off-topic, that's absolutely not how the human mind works in regards to faith, as has been proved countless times throughout history. The worship of the Emperor is so varied across the Imperium that Guilliman turning up to many planets to declare himself a returned Primarch would be met with scoffs of "no you're not, the Emperor is the moon who brings light to the darkness, and the Primarchs are the constellations. As you can see, the Avenging Son is still right there in the sky where it should be, so you're talking heresy." Others might respond with a simple "well, if you're really Guilliman, where are your wings? If you're the Primarch, you're one of the Emperors Angels, and the Ecclesiarchy teaches us that the Emperors Angels have wings. You don't."

 

The Chapters themselves range from holdouts still keeping to the Imperial Truth like some portrayals of the Black Templars, death cults like the Star Phantoms, and countless other variations influenced to one degree or another by the local Imperial Cult. Some might believe that the Primarchs died alongside the Emperor, and now fight at his side in the Warp against the Chaos Gods themselves.

 

Point is, even we can't agree about anything to do with religion. To say that the Imperium as a whole will believe instantly the claims of Guilliman, just because he says it, is pretty laughable.

 

I mean, I do love the Primaris Marines, it's just that the 40k writers often tend to forget the scale of what they're doing.

You don't buy that it's a logistics issue? This is a galaxy we're talking about, with all the inherent instability and unreliability of Warp travel thrown in. This isn't like Star Wars where you activate hyperdrive, and you're above Terra 20 minutes later. You can't just send a message from one planet to the other, like Space Radio, you have to pass the message on to one borderline-insane telepathic weirdo, who goes into a trance to project the essence of the message through dream-logic to other borderline-insane telepathic weirdos, who then have to try to decipher what isn't just meaningless madness emanating from the mind-shattering impossibilities that is the Warp and what's just an actual message, then try to figure out what you were actually trying to say. Oops, that dream about a void-black crow shrieking into the darkness while hungry eyes peer on from beyond the firelight wasn't just a dream, but a Raven Guard taskforce requesting reinforcements against a Tyranid splinter-fleet?

Warp travel is, at best, something where you use Insane Science to tear a hole into physics itself, throw yourself into a Hell-Dimension, sit there for a few months while trusting your life to a three-eyed mutant flying only by the guiding light of a psychic lighthouse fueled by a god holds back the slavering hordes of Neverborn from consuming you soul-first, and hopefully come out at roughly the same time difference from what you know, rather than decades in the future, or even the past. Pan-galactic trips aren't particularly possible under the best circumstances here, and the 40k galaxy has just had the biggest Warp-storms in history essentially break the galaxy in half by breaking reality itself. Half the galaxy is entirely cut off from the Astronomican, so now the Navigators on the far side are flying by the seat of their pants, in pure blackness, through a storm made literally of pure murder and hatred Sticking close to those areas of the Warp that at least vaguely hold to temporal laws so you don't come out at risk of meeting your ancestors? That's now not really going to happen. You'll be lucky if they detect that Warp-Leviathan that makes a Bloodthirster look like a happy puppy in time to crash out of the Warp before they slam into it and become metaphysically entangled.

 

So, let's take a rough estimate, and assume that half of the Chapters exist on the far side of the Rift. You can load up as many transports as you want with all the materiel and infrastructure you want. Odds are, half of that isn't reaching the destination you want it to, or if it is, it'll probably be arriving in the next few centuries or so.

 

Sorry, that ended up a bit snippy, I just hate how GW loves telling us how bad Warp-travel is, and then simultaneously has every fleet (both Great and Indomitus Crusades) arriving perfectly on time, with no negative effects whatsoever. It's mentioned only for lol-GrimDark moments like Imperial Guard regiments being accused of desertion while merely being late due to Warp shenanigans, or for lol-random Ork stuff, like the Waaagh that ended due to temporal paradox.

[Dracos]

The simplest answer for why I dislike Primaris is that they represent the one thing that never belonged in 40k: hope.

Lack of Hope is one of the things I always have disliked about 40k fluff. I'm just not a fan of grey. 

 

That said, I don't see how the Primaris represent hope, except superficially ... or in-universe. I suppose after 20 years though I've learned whatever Hope the Primaris might represent, will be dashed on the Rocks of Despair . . . come the next Chaos Codex

 

 

 

 

 

They are nice models and I think Primaris rules represent what we always thought how a Space Marine should perform on table compared to the fluff. I hope they replace the existing line even if it means losing half the bells and whistles of the current line. I also despair knowing some jackwad writing the next Chaos Codex will hijack the line and ruin what would make the Astartes a unique army.

[Blindhamster]

Blood Angels also fall into the caring about humanity and not just winning aspect. Always have - it's another reason the thirst is an issue for them, some of their successors in recent years are shown to have forgotten that nobility though.

[Firepower]

Yeah, it was precisely because of the Thirst that Angels always knew an unusual level of humility and humanity for Space Marines (which I always liked as a well thought out aspect of their character).  But again, the exception, not the rule.

[DogWelder]

 

i really don't buy that it's a logistics issue. Remember, call had 10,000 years to not just put these guys together, but also design, manufacture and equip them for this task. I absolutely believe the new chapters and the reinforced chapters were equipped with enough equipment to be viable.

 

And I get that many people want to believe that in the 40k world, superstition and backwards thinking would cause many chapters to recoil from Primaris and their use... but isn't this kind of the point? The reawakening of Guilliman has changed the Space Marines. This isn't some guy bearing false gifts. This is a Primarch, A mythological being in his own right, alive, bringing new equipment and practices and dispelling mythology when and where he can. All of his sons would embrace everything he does... religiously. The other genelines would also toe the line out of reverent respect as well. The Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists being prime examples. Dark Imperium clearly states that 97 percent of the Chapters accept the Primaris.

 

At the risk of dragging this off-topic, that's absolutely not how the human mind works in regards to faith, as has been proved countless times throughout history. The worship of the Emperor is so varied across the Imperium that Guilliman turning up to many planets to declare himself a returned Primarch would be met with scoffs of "no you're not, the Emperor is the moon who brings light to the darkness, and the Primarchs are the constellations. As you can see, the Avenging Son is still right there in the sky where it should be, so you're talking heresy." Others might respond with a simple "well, if you're really Guilliman, where are your wings? If you're the Primarch, you're one of the Emperors Angels, and the Ecclesiarchy teaches us that the Emperors Angels have wings. You don't."

 

The Chapters themselves range from holdouts still keeping to the Imperial Truth like some portrayals of the Black Templars, death cults like the Star Phantoms, and countless other variations influenced to one degree or another by the local Imperial Cult. Some might believe that the Primarchs died alongside the Emperor, and now fight at his side in the Warp against the Chaos Gods themselves.

 

Point is, even we can't agree about anything to do with religion. To say that the Imperium as a whole will believe instantly the claims of Guilliman, just because he says it, is pretty laughable.

 

I mean, I do love the Primaris Marines, it's just that the 40k writers often tend to forget the scale of what they're doing.

You don't buy that it's a logistics issue? This is a galaxy we're talking about, with all the inherent instability and unreliability of Warp travel thrown in. This isn't like Star Wars where you activate hyperdrive, and you're above Terra 20 minutes later. You can't just send a message from one planet to the other, like Space Radio, you have to pass the message on to one borderline-insane telepathic weirdo, who goes into a trance to project the essence of the message through dream-logic to other borderline-insane telepathic weirdos, who then have to try to decipher what isn't just meaningless madness emanating from the mind-shattering impossibilities that is the Warp and what's just an actual message, then try to figure out what you were actually trying to say. Oops, that dream about a void-black crow shrieking into the darkness while hungry eyes peer on from beyond the firelight wasn't just a dream, but a Raven Guard taskforce requesting reinforcements against a Tyranid splinter-fleet?

Warp travel is, at best, something where you use Insane Science to tear a hole into physics itself, throw yourself into a Hell-Dimension, sit there for a few months while trusting your life to a three-eyed mutant flying only by the guiding light of a psychic lighthouse fueled by a god holds back the slavering hordes of Neverborn from consuming you soul-first, and hopefully come out at roughly the same time difference from what you know, rather than decades in the future, or even the past. Pan-galactic trips aren't particularly possible under the best circumstances here, and the 40k galaxy has just had the biggest Warp-storms in history essentially break the galaxy in half by breaking reality itself. Half the galaxy is entirely cut off from the Astronomican, so now the Navigators on the far side are flying by the seat of their pants, in pure blackness, through a storm made literally of pure murder and hatred Sticking close to those areas of the Warp that at least vaguely hold to temporal laws so you don't come out at risk of meeting your ancestors? That's now not really going to happen. You'll be lucky if they detect that Warp-Leviathan that makes a Bloodthirster look like a happy puppy in time to crash out of the Warp before they slam into it and become metaphysically entangled.

 

So, let's take a rough estimate, and assume that half of the Chapters exist on the far side of the Rift. You can load up as many transports as you want with all the materiel and infrastructure you want. Odds are, half of that isn't reaching the destination you want it to, or if it is, it'll probably be arriving in the next few centuries or so.

 

Sorry, that ended up a bit snippy, I just hate how GW loves telling us how bad Warp-travel is, and then simultaneously has every fleet (both Great and Indomitus Crusades) arriving perfectly on time, with no negative effects whatsoever. It's mentioned only for lol-GrimDark moments like Imperial Guard regiments being accused of desertion while merely being late due to Warp shenanigans, or for lol-random Ork stuff, like the Waaagh that ended due to temporal paradox.

 

 

To be fair, a vast majority of warp travel goes safely just like a large majority of planets in the Imperium don't really see any major wars.

 

I think it was something like 99% of warp travel needed to go safely in order for an Empire of a million worlds to sustain itself without running out of ships within a few short centuries. I imagine the warp rift in the middle of the galaxy has somewhat reduced that but it still needs to be pretty high for the Imperium to even exist as an entity. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, the stable Warp routes do, which is usually where the trade routes go along. Most of the planets in the Imperium just depend on their local neighbours, so a Hive World will have an Agri World within the same region that supplies it with food, etc. There's no real galactic network of trade going on within the Imperium. Even the Imperial Guard are drawn from the local planets nearby, rather than Cadians magically being everywhere.

 

It's when you start going further that Warp dilation and risk really starts setting in. Like, for example, the Indomitus Crusade trying to reach most of the galaxy ASAP while massive Warp storms disrupt all travel.

[DogWelder]

Well, the stable Warp routes do, which is usually where the trade routes go along. Most of the planets in the Imperium just depend on their local neighbours, so a Hive World will have an Agri World within the same region that supplies it with food, etc. There's no real galactic network of trade going on within the Imperium. Even the Imperial Guard are drawn from the local planets nearby, rather than Cadians magically being everywhere.

 

It's when you start going further that Warp dilation and risk really starts setting in. Like, for example, the Indomitus Crusade trying to reach most of the galaxy ASAP while massive Warp storms disrupt all travel.

 

I would really have appreciated a proper, updated, galaxy map showing in detail the route of the Indomitus Crusade along with the 8th Edition Codex 

 

Instead we just get a revamped version of the old map again.

[Boldthreat]

@Lord_Caerolion

 

You do not have to apologize at all for coming across as snippy, I didn't think you were.  I love reading different points of view and stacking my beliefs up against others.  So respectfully here is my rebuttal to some of your points, please note I actually agree with some of the things you are saying.

 

 

 

At the risk of dragging this off-topic, that's absolutely not how the human mind works in regards to faith, as has been proved countless times throughout history. The worship of the Emperor is so varied across the Imperium that Guilliman turning up to many planets to declare himself a returned Primarch would be met with scoffs of "no you're not, the Emperor is the moon who brings light to the darkness, and the Primarchs are the constellations. As you can see, the Avenging Son is still right there in the sky where it should be, so you're talking heresy." Others might respond with a simple "well, if you're really Guilliman, where are your wings? If you're the Primarch, you're one of the Emperors Angels, and the Ecclesiarchy teaches us that the Emperors Angels have wings. You don't."

 

But we now know that is not what happened:

 

‘Archmagos Belisarius Cawl repeats that all gene-lines continue to operate at peak efficiency. Tested gene-seed reveals a mutational deviancy of less than 0.001% per generation. All Adeptus Astartes Chapters once again have access to the full suite of additional organs, replacing those zygotes lost through improper treatment or evolutionary variance, with the addition of the three new implants. All Chapters who have adopted the Primaris paradigm have adapted to the new creation processes with minimal wastage of recruits or mistakes in implantation. As can be expected, those new Primaris-strain Chapters founded by you, my lord, have the lowest error rate. The new equipment functions well. Requests for resupply with the new type of battle-brother and their associated weaponry have increased, suggesting a ninety-four per cent acceptance rate among the Chapters.’

 

I understand this is brief, and potentially open to conjecture... but this paints a pretty clear picture for the most part.  All Adeptus Astartes Chapters accepted Guilliman's gene-seed tampering.  It is estimated that 94% of the Chapters willingly accepted the Primaris and their equipment, and are actively requesting for more.  But note that its not just the technology and the gene-seed they accepted.  They willingly accepted Guilliman's creation processes, undoing thousands of years of traditional thinking.  Heck he even amends the Codex Astartes!  There were Ultramarine successors who would have went to war with Chapters that deviated grossly from the codex previously. 

 

My point is Guilliman returning is absolutely a mythology shattering event for the majority of the Adeptus Astartes.  Even the traditionalist Ultramarines like Calgar and Ventris struggled with their idea of who and what he is and the true reality in Dark Imperium.  Now was this hastily done?  I think so.  It could have been better.  But by the end of the Indomitus Crusade... Guilliman and Cawl have successfully changed almost every Space Marine Chapter in existence in some way.  I think that is clear.

 

 

I mean, I do love the Primaris Marines, it's just that the 40k writers often tend to forget the scale of what they're doing.

You don't buy that it's a logistics issue? This is a galaxy we're talking about, with all the inherent instability and unreliability of Warp travel thrown in. This isn't like Star Wars where you activate hyperdrive, and you're above Terra 20 minutes later. You can't just send a message from one planet to the other, like Space Radio, you have to pass the message on to one borderline-insane telepathic weirdo, who goes into a trance to project the essence of the message through dream-logic to other borderline-insane telepathic weirdos, who then have to try to decipher what isn't just meaningless madness emanating from the mind-shattering impossibilities that is the Warp and what's just an actual message, then try to figure out what you were actually trying to say. Oops, that dream about a void-black crow shrieking into the darkness while hungry eyes peer on from beyond the firelight wasn't just a dream, but a Raven Guard taskforce requesting reinforcements against a Tyranid splinter-fleet?

Warp travel is, at best, something where you use Insane Science ™ to tear a hole into physics itself, throw yourself into a Hell-Dimension, sit there for a few months while trusting your life to a three-eyed mutant flying only by the guiding light of a psychic lighthouse fueled by a god holds back the slavering hordes of Neverborn from consuming you soul-first, and hopefully come out at roughly the same time difference from what you know, rather than decades in the future, or even the past. Pan-galactic trips aren't particularly possible under the best circumstances here, and the 40k galaxy has just had the biggest Warp-storms in history essentially break the galaxy in half by breaking reality itself. Half the galaxy is entirely cut off from the Astronomican, so now the Navigators on the far side are flying by the seat of their pants, in pure blackness, through a storm made literally of pure murder and hatred Sticking close to those areas of the Warp that at least vaguely hold to temporal laws so you don't come out at risk of meeting your ancestors? That's now not really going to happen. You'll be lucky if they detect that Warp-Leviathan that makes a Bloodthirster look like a happy puppy in time to crash out of the Warp before they slam into it and become metaphysically entangled.

 

So, let's take a rough estimate, and assume that half of the Chapters exist on the far side of the Rift. You can load up as many transports as you want with all the materiel and infrastructure you want. Odds are, half of that isn't reaching the destination you want it to, or if it is, it'll probably be arriving in the next few centuries or so.

 

I get what you are saying here... and I actually agree with the issues you bring up.  But again, the Indomitus Crusade was the Great Crusade 2.0.  The Primaris Marines were already created and equipped at the start of it.  Half of them were immediately formed into their own Chapters.  The other half were organized into Legion-sized forces and when they came across battered Chapters or came to an area that needed a new Chapter installed...they pulled all necessary forces and equipment from those already in place and integrated them immediately as needed.  Kind of like a mini-Second Founding everywhere the Crusade went.  I.E.... the new Primaris Crimson Fists already had all of their equipment with them when they integrated with the survivors of the Crimson Fists, and on top of that Guilliman also refurbished the Crimson Fists geneseed supply.  He saved the Crimson Fists from destruction.  So much so that they have a new Chapter holiday where they swear their oath to repay Lord Guilliman.  As the Crusade reached across the galaxy... they reinforced on their way with Space Marines that were already fighting in the Crusade and that already had their own equipment.  He did this with every Chapter he came across.  So logistically, at least in the way I am trying to use that term, I think its clear that the Indomitus Crusade did reinforce most, if not all, of the Adeptus Astartes across the galaxy.  We even know Guilliman does cross the Great Rift and do the same thing over there.  

 

So were there parts of the Indomitus Crusade that never made it to their destination to resupply this Chapter or that Chapter?  Probably... but Dark Imperium suggests that over the more than a Century that the Crusade lasts... Guilliman and Cawl reinforce the vast majority of Chapters in existence.  Its not that I dont agree with your interpretation of the Warp and the nature of space travel in-universe.  I absolutely do.  Its just that officially... Guilliman and Company do it, in around 100 years of constant crusading.  I do not want to lose site of how massive the universe is... but in the same breath lets not lose site on how massive an undertaking the Indomitus Crusade was.  Nothing like it has happened in 10,000 years.  I think its GW's fault to not hit home how big and galaxy-changing a Primarch lead Great Crusade was and is to the 41st Millennium, let alone the fundamentally huge changes it had on every single Space Marine Chapter.

 

 

 

Sorry, that ended up a bit snippy, I just hate how GW loves telling us how bad Warp-travel is, and then simultaneously has every fleet (both Great and Indomitus Crusades) arriving perfectly on time, with no negative effects whatsoever. It's mentioned only for lol-GrimDark moments like Imperial Guard regiments being accused of desertion while merely being late due to Warp shenanigans, or for lol-random Ork stuff, like the Waaagh that ended due to temporal paradox.

 

I actually agree with everything you say here.  

[Lord_Caerolion]

I really should actually read Dark Imperium, I think :p

 

The only thing I hope GW expands on, is that a 94% acceptance rate doesn't necessarily mean 94% are going ahead with replacing the Oldtype Marines, just that they haven't disregarded the Primaris entirely. I'd love to see things where a Chapter does accept them, but only grudgingly. We know the Flesh Tearers have done this, but how does that actually look in practice? Are there any Chapters that begrudgingly keep a Company or so of the "new and improved" Marines, while keeping the bulk of their Chapter as the Marines that "were good enough for the Emperor during the Great Crusade, so they're good enough for now, dammit"?

 

I mean, I really want to love the new background. I love the Primaris Marines, I just think GW has done themselves a massive disservice by using such a broad brush to cover the implementation of the Primaris. Give us some nuance!

[Magos Takatus]

One of the parts about the crusade I find strange is that not only are the Primaris and their wargear are all good to go at once, but they have enough spacecraft waiting around to transport them. I think the background in the space marine codex mentions a huge freighter ark ship was used to carry the bulk of the war material but when they stop to reinforce beleaguered chapters or to found a completely new one they would need space battle barges and strike cruisers for those chapters to be operational. I know that Mars has some impressive industrial capabilities, but these ships take time to build, were they sitting in dry dock for millennia waiting for Cawl to wake up and finish his Primaris founding? I find hiding tens of thousands of space marines and their tanks, transports and so on a bit hard to swallow but a space marine battlefleet? It's not like they would just borrow ships from Battlefleet Solar since space marines no longer use Imperial Navy ships (with some exceptions).

[Gentlemanloser]

Come now, they were obviously made with handwavium. ;)

 

(But this does remind me of a few Kindle Sci Fi novels I've read with hidden fleets being build in hidden space docks!)

[Race Bannon]

Handwavium ...

 

MY NEW FAVORITE WORD!