Will 'Oldtype' Marines be completely replaced by Primaris?

[Sete]

Yeah. For sales reason no First Founding chapter is going to reject Primaris. They may toss some lesser known successor chapter out there as the sacrificial non-adopters and then have the Custodes kill them. Therefore sending a message to everyone else.

 

But yes. Primaris will replace all (loyal) Trumarines in fiction and store shelves eventually.

 

PS. Wait, has there been ANY mention of Iron Hands and Primaris yet? That might be the one original chapter to truly say 'F Off Girly Man!'

Yeah if BT and SW didn't, I don't see the IH doing it.

[Bronze Beast in the Dark]

There was an Iron Hand Primaris in the book (Dark Imperium or something?) 

[Sete]

Yes. And despite being a Primaris and never having contact with the chapter he already displayed then halter traits and even had replaced a hand! I hated the book because of dumb :cuss like that.

Every member was quite the stereotype.

[Bronze Beast in the Dark]

I never finished it, had to look up the books name. That said, my head cannon works for me and I love the Primaris marines. Very fun models.

[Jarl Caldersson]

So I tried to keep up with this thread the best I could. I don't think it was ever confirmed that normal Marines can be upgraded to Primaris. If not then I don't think old Marines will go away, due to all the characters. That is unless they plan on phasing every single old marine out of "service". That would piss more people than introducing the Primaris.

[Claws and Effect]

Very valid point Firepower. That's my main beef with the setting as a whole truthfully. I don't want to hold onto this character or that. My own headcannon fluff of the setting is as a preverbial meat grinder and our heroes shouldn't be safe. Heck it's one of the best parts about Rogal Dorn is that he dies.

 

I don't want the setting to become herohammer... I want the opposite. Unfortunately returning Primarchs don't bode well for me. But I enjoy that my own captain mcnobody can fight with Guilliman in some campaign.

 

The great rift and the Indomitus Crusade was supposed to be a big deal... but everyone's still alive? I get that this is the way it's traditionally done... but it's another missed opportunity in the new lore to really shake things up and change that.

 

To further clarify what I mean... I want more Carab Culln progression, and to a lesser extent what happened with Sgt. Lysander. I want evolving characters and replacements. Even though we never got much regarding Vladimir Pugh... I enjoyed reading about his death. This is Warhammer... these guys are Space Marines... they lead from the front and the front is some hellish... apocalyptic nightmare full of demons, monsters and various forms of high tech, crazy super weapons... I don't see anyone retiring lol.

Absolutely go ahead and kill them off in the fluff. But leave the rules for them.

 

Some people like to set their army in a certain era. For example, my Raven Guard are set between the Damocles campaign and the new stuff. Primaris don't exist yet and Shrike JUST got promoted.

 

Killing off Shrike and removing his rules would infuriate me, but if he dies and I can still use him in my army set before his death I could live with that.

[Firepower]

See there's a difference between "It's okay if characters die off" versus "kill them off!"  The former is perfectly reasonable (as long as, yes, they keep the rules, a la Tycho).  The latter is needless.  I don't understand why the old characters need to die.

 

Irritated hyperbole, not necessarily useful but it made me giggle:

Is it necessary in order for this trite, fart scented explosion of mediocrity we're being sold to continue forward?  Is it because the new lore can't exist alongside nuance, character archs and writer restraint without feeling self conscious?  Heaven forbid Commander Wins-Em-All of the Super Heroic Ultimately Awesome Crusade feel inadequate next to the character with flaws and limitations.  Did the Custodes at some point come forward and promise the Emperor would rise from the Golden Throne if we put anything resembling a writer's respect for their own material in front of a firing squad and kept tugging the triggers til the rifling melted into slag?

 

There are ways to mark the passage of time forward in 40k without the knee-jerk solution of killing all the old guys.  If things feel stagnant right now despite the setting moving forward, it's because the new elements aren't actually accomplishing anything, just bouncing off each other and moving to a new campaign where a whole lot of cool dramatic stuff happens, paradoxically without anything happening at all.

 

I think one reason for this impulse is because characters are the only (or at least main) thing most people have genuine, exploitable attachment to, and so only with their loss do we feel any sort of change or a stimulation of emotional investment.  Nobody gets teared up by Cadia falling, because no one has vested emotional interest in a planet.  A whole bunch of Blood Angels die on Baal?  Well I didn't know any of them, and the Blood Angels still exist, so stuff happened, but at the same time it feels like nothing happened at all.  This is because the existing characters serve their purpose well.  They give faces and personalities to concepts that, while interesting, you can't actually pour much emotional investment into in the same way.

 

But if old characters need to die just so new guys don't have to share the lime light, then no, that's not good sense or good writing.

[Bryan Blaire]

See there's a difference between "It's okay if characters die off" versus "kill them off!"  The former is perfectly reasonable (as long as, yes, they keep the rules, a la Tycho).  The latter is needless.  I don't understand why the old characters need to die.

 

But if old characters need to die just so new guys don't have to share the lime light

Well, we have a decent idea that the Model Makers in the Studio only works on what they find interesting, it's been alluded to, if not outright said, before. So if they aren't interested in the old Chapter Masters, High Marshals, Supreme Grand Masters and the like, it's preventing those characters from ever getting new models and locks them into remaining "Mini-Masters," now even more-so against the Primaris miniatures. However, if those same characters remaining in the stories/plot also prevents the Model Makers in the Studio from creating new models for characters they do find interesting, even coming up with Primaris characters, because there would be revolt from some folks for that, then isn't that a good reason for the older characters to be placed into harms way, letting them perish so that continued progression, including model-wise, can happen and we can actually get some cool new Primaris Named Characters?

 

I would also prefer they leave the rules for previous characters and am equally worried about those rules being removed in the name of progressing the meta-story.

[Claws and Effect]

No.

 

Killing off characters because their existence is somehow preventing us from getting new ones is an awful excuse.

 

They didn't need to kill anyone to dump Cawl on us or bring Guilliman back.

 

Nothing is stopping the model sculptors from making new characters other than their own lack of desire to do so.

 

I would LOVE a new model for Shrike, since I hate the pose of the official model. But I solved that by kitbashing my own.

[Dracos]

Sometimes the story just requires someone "Taking the Bullet". :)

 

Yeah it's a trope but there's a reason it exist. You might think it a poor writers tool but it works because sacrifice evokes something in us. The Indomitus Crusade might have meant more if Calgar or someone of that nature had died. It could have been a great novel of heroic sacrifice. Maybe protecting Cawl and a Chapter worth of Primaris? Could have been a passing of the torch ... still could be in a different scenario.

 

Probably most of those of us who have been reading the fluff since 2nd edition are resistent to this kind of sudden drastic change but to advance the story I think an example of real sacrifice would add depth to the lore.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Thing is that if someone like Dante died at Baal would be okay, the issue is that when it's too much. Imagine if Shrike, Dante, Grimnar, draigo, the major characters died in one year. That is just lazy writing, it's showing that GW is killing off character as fast as possible to make room for Primaris and basically resetting the storyline for 40k: Primarchs and Primaris.

[Claws and Effect]

Thing is that if someone like Dante died at Baal would be okay, the issue is that when it's too much. Imagine if Shrike, Dante, Grimnar, draigo, the major characters died in one year. That is just lazy writing, it's showing that GW is killing off character as fast as possible to make room for Primaris and basically resetting the storyline for 40k: Primarchs and Primaris.

This.

 

"We need drama! Kill everyone off so we can make new characters!"

 

That's just lazy writing.

 

It's one thing if a character death serves a legitimate purpose to the story. It's another thing entirely if it's just to make room for a new character. The setting is big enough for new characters to exist alongside the old ones just fine.

 

Also, if you kill off a bunch of characters in rapid succession, it loses pretty much all of its impact. I'll be pretty upset if Shrike gets killed off for no better reason than to give the Raven Guard a Primaris Chapter Master.

 

He's an interesting character who hasn't had a lot of stories written about him. Kill off one of the characters that have had tons of stories told instead.

[Firepower]

 

Thing is that if someone like Dante died at Baal would be okay, the issue is that when it's too much. Imagine if Shrike, Dante, Grimnar, draigo, the major characters died in one year. That is just lazy writing, it's showing that GW is killing off character as fast as possible to make room for Primaris and basically resetting the storyline for 40k: Primarchs and Primaris.

This.

 

"We need drama! Kill everyone off so we can make new characters!"

 

That's just lazy writing.

 

It's one thing if a character death serves a legitimate purpose to the story. It's another thing entirely if it's just to make room for a new character. The setting is big enough for new characters to exist alongside the old ones just fine.

 

Also, if you kill off a bunch of characters in rapid succession, it loses pretty much all of its impact. I'll be pretty upset if Shrike gets killed off for no better reason than to give the Raven Guard a Primaris Chapter Master.

 

He's an interesting character who hasn't had a lot of stories written about him. Kill off one of the characters that have had tons of stories told instead.

 

 

Alright Calgar, batter up!  I think it's only fair that they off an Ultramarine first, as a sign of good faith...

 

:teehee:

[Claws and Effect]

Nah. I'd rather see Sicarius die in an embarrassing way. Like falling down a flight of stairs and landing on his sword.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I think killing a UM character off is a good way for GW to redeem some fans for all their Guilliman/UM stuff going on. Hell I don't mind if Grimnar dies if it means Russ comes back. Just leave Ulric and Bjorn the :cuss alone. I mean SW lost 3 characters already, plus whatever DA and BA lost in their novels. UM seem to have gone by rather unscathed, in what is supposed to be a major war in their front yard.

 

If old Marines get upgraded to Primaris then I can see some of the characters like Dante embrace it and upgrade, while others killed off that don't upgrade (either by choice or unable to). Primaris are a new arms race make no mistake. CSM will have them and do you think they will only use Cawl pattern gear? No. Primaris may be making progress now but all they did was turn the war up to 11 once they get corrupted.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

That's a terrible idea. You don't compound one bad decision with another. Two wrongs don't make a right, and senseless bashing and hating on things like Ultramarines is most definitely wrong and petty.

[Firepower]

What I said was meant to be (mostly) tongue in cheek.  Hence the silly emoticon

 

I didn't mean to set off a mean spirited ultrabash tangent. May be best if the Mods cleanse my and the last few posts before it really takes off.

 

One of the stranger examples of all this is Marshal/Champion Almarich (spelling?).  Instead of focusing on any established characters, GW created one, tried to cram a character arch (that had "This guy is going to make a noble sacrifice" written all over it from page one) into a very small space, and then killed him off in a way that was supposed to have some sort of meaningful impact on the reader.  No, there wasn't any canonical reason to suddenly slap Grimaldus or Helbrecht onto Cadia to lead the Crusade when they're someplace completely different, but it was still oddly...rushed?  Haphazard?

 

Meanwhile, they brought the one character to the party that literally comes back from the dead.  :lol:

[Bryan Blaire]

The writing is already bad, they honestly can't make it any worse - about all they can do now is give us a completely different setting... The creation of the Primaris was already rushed and the setting has already been pretty much crapped on.

 

Considering that Azrael is supposed to be mostly paralyzed about the DA's involvement in the creation of their own situation, maybe they can just kill him off so that the DA (or maybe even one of their Successors for once) can get some new characters. He's from a head-hunting tribe, he should understand the call for "off with his head". The rest of y'all can keep the crappy metal/Finecast characters.

[Firepower]

The writing is already bad, they honestly can't make it any worse

 

Never underestimate the potential for something worse.  Even if you're on fire, someone can still kick you in the shin. :P

[Bryan Blaire]

Even if you're on fire, someone can still kick you in the shin. :P

:facepalm: Even tongue-in-cheek, when your skin is on fire, getting knocked around a bit doesn't really register - you might even welcome it if it puts out the fire...

[Boldthreat]

 

 

Thing is that if someone like Dante died at Baal would be okay, the issue is that when it's too much. Imagine if Shrike, Dante, Grimnar, draigo, the major characters died in one year. That is just lazy writing, it's showing that GW is killing off character as fast as possible to make room for Primaris and basically resetting the storyline for 40k: Primarchs and Primaris.

This.

 

"We need drama! Kill everyone off so we can make new characters!"

 

That's just lazy writing.

 

It's one thing if a character death serves a legitimate purpose to the story. It's another thing entirely if it's just to make room for a new character. The setting is big enough for new characters to exist alongside the old ones just fine.

 

Also, if you kill off a bunch of characters in rapid succession, it loses pretty much all of its impact. I'll be pretty upset if Shrike gets killed off for no better reason than to give the Raven Guard a Primaris Chapter Master.

 

He's an interesting character who hasn't had a lot of stories written about him. Kill off one of the characters that have had tons of stories told instead.

 

 

Alright Calgar, batter up!  I think it's only fair that they off an Ultramarine first, as a sign of good faith...

 

 

 

Lol, yeah!  Goodbye Calgar... hello Chapter Master Decimus Felix!  Hey it could be worse... it could be Chapter Master Ventris :P

[Jarl Caldersson]

The writing is already bad, they honestly can't make it any worse - about all they can do now is give us a completely different setting... The creation of the Primaris was already rushed and the setting has already been pretty much crapped on.

Considering that Azrael is supposed to be mostly paralyzed about the DA's involvement in the creation of their own situation, maybe they can just kill him off so that the DA (or maybe even one of their Successors for once) can get some new characters. He's from a head-hunting tribe, he should understand the call for "off with his head". The rest of y'all can keep the crappy metal/Finecast characters.

I think killing a few characters off is a good thing. Things get stagnant when there is no major losses. SW lost 2 Wolf Lord's, and 2 Great Companies. That is creating a void for 2 new characters and 2 new styles of combat. This is tedious due to the long wait to see who has taken over those spots, but it gives new blood into the SW family. Now imagine Grimnar being brought down. A newish model that everyone thought gave him model armor. Not only does it give potential for SW to get a whole new look, but it removes any model armor that any other chapter has.

 

TBH killing Grimnar would be a great way to bring new blood into the SW as long as it is done well. That goes for any character, if done right killing characters is a great step forward. Done wrong and it only infuriates the fans.

 

Edit: I suppose I should justify why we should kill some UM characters. For as long as I have enjoyed the game there is a constant belief that "As long as its a major UM character they won't be killed". This has held true ever since, by killing a UM character they are breaking that practice and giving some characteristics to the UM faction. Now more than ever they could use this, as Guilliman is back. How would Guilliman react if Calgar was killed defending Macrgagge. Would RG care, or was Calgar disposable? Would Calgar be replace by a primaris or non-prmaris sucessor. It is almost needed to make the war around Macrgagge feel like its actually a threat. With a major UM character killed it allows multiple story paths to be opened up and for us to explore more of those paths.

[Sete]

As long as the design team stops playing StarCraft, and stops designing firebats and reapers, we should be fine. Fingers crossed that they make traditional units. The lack of chainswords is still baffling. If they want to replace the squatmarines, at least do it properly.

[Boldthreat]

As long as the design team stops playing StarCraft, and stops designing firebats and reapers, we should be fine. Fingers crossed that they make traditional units. The lack of chainswords is still baffling. If they want to replace the squatmarines, at least do it properly.

You mean you don't want transforming storm talons that morph into mini dreads and a new predator that can transform into a vindicator?

 

Ugh, I too hope the Star Craft copying ends, as much as I like inceptors and Aggressors.

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm here's a thing I hadn't considered. If GW replaced Space Marines with Primaris completely, they could never make historic campaigns to fill out the 10,000 years between the Heresy and current time line, or encourage such re-enactments in battle reports etc.

 

I wonder if they considered this or even care?