Will 'Oldtype' Marines be completely replaced by Primaris?

[Gentlemanloser]

Glad to be of service! :D

[Xenith]

There are no Primaris scouts. Yet.

 

I thought the whole Primaris Process only took a single year with low failure rate, hence no lengthy training regimen and no scouts. 

[Gree]

Yep, and every experience we've had in the real world of someone claiming to be a reincarnated saint or whatever has resulted in, at best, religious schism. This is in the 40k universe, where everything is heresy, yes, especially even that, and where innovation and invention are tech-heresy. Yes, I'm being a bit flippant, but we're dealing with a universe where the past is glorified, where older=better, especially when it comes to technology. Now we've got a group coming along saying "don't worry, these brand new inventions and developments will save everybody! Throw out your holy relics from the Great Crusade, they are needed no longer! Instead, I've got brand-new guns of my own invention for you to use instead! Don't worry though, this guy claiming to be a Primarch says it's ok!"

 

Sure, Guilliman claims to be supported by the Emperor, and he's got the Emperors sword, and the backing of the High Lords. Well, Goge Vandire had the inherent backing of the Emperor, and was supported by the entire might of the Ecclesiarchy itself, and look how that turned out. You could forgive any Chapters for being untrusting of these developments, they haven't exactly worked out well in the past for the Imperium.

You can say that, but I can also point out to the Centurion warsuits, Stormravens, Stormtalons, Land Raider variants and all other cool stuff that saw widespread acceptance by the Astartes. All without being endorsed by a Primarch.

 

I suppose an entirely new type of Astartes is a bit different in scale, but Astartes accepting new equipment is hardly without precedent.

 

The simplest answer for why I dislike Primaris is that they represent the one thing that never belonged in 40k: hope.

Well, Tzeentch is generally depicted as the god of Hope and Ambition is he not? He's been around since the early days.

 

This is something I don't see echoed quite often enough, and I'm guilty myself of ignoring it - the coming of Space Marines can be as much a curse as a blessing.

 

Tactica Imperium had the Iron Snakes basically destroying the mining colony that asked them for aid in order to defeat the Dark Eldar plaguing the sub-sector. Their objective was, in effect, opposed to that of the people they "saved".

Conversely, one of my favorite pieces of lore is Pedro Kantor in Rynn's World going out of his way to save local civilians, despite the fact that it would compromise his mission.

 

It was one of those moments that made him one of my personal favorite Chapter Masters.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Yep, and every experience we've had in the real world of someone claiming to be a reincarnated saint or whatever has resulted in, at best, religious schism. This is in the 40k universe, where everything is heresy, yes, especially even that, and where innovation and invention are tech-heresy. Yes, I'm being a bit flippant, but we're dealing with a universe where the past is glorified, where older=better, especially when it comes to technology. Now we've got a group coming along saying "don't worry, these brand new inventions and developments will save everybody! Throw out your holy relics from the Great Crusade, they are needed no longer! Instead, I've got brand-new guns of my own invention for you to use instead! Don't worry though, this guy claiming to be a Primarch says it's ok!"

 

Sure, Guilliman claims to be supported by the Emperor, and he's got the Emperors sword, and the backing of the High Lords. Well, Goge Vandire had the inherent backing of the Emperor, and was supported by the entire might of the Ecclesiarchy itself, and look how that turned out. You could forgive any Chapters for being untrusting of these developments, they haven't exactly worked out well in the past for the Imperium.

You can say that, but I can also point out to the Centurion warsuits, Stormravens, Stormtalons, Land Raider variants and all other cool stuff that saw widespread acceptance by the Astartes. All without being endorsed by a Primarch.

 

I suppose an entirely new type of Astartes is a bit different in scale, but Astartes accepting new equipment is hardly without precedent.

 

I was more talking about the Chapters all accepting Guilliman as a leader due to him being a returned Primarch. I mean, if you take the Blood Angels books as canon, then the last time a guy turned up claiming to be a returned Primarch it didn't exactly end up being correct. Yeah, the Chapters have accepted new variants of technology before, but this is modifications to the direct handiwork of the Emperor Himself, the sacred and holy geneseed.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

Yep, and every experience we've had in the real world of someone claiming to be a reincarnated saint or whatever has resulted in, at best, religious schism. This is in the 40k universe, where everything is heresy, yes, especially even that, and where innovation and invention are tech-heresy. Yes, I'm being a bit flippant, but we're dealing with a universe where the past is glorified, where older=better, especially when it comes to technology. Now we've got a group coming along saying "don't worry, these brand new inventions and developments will save everybody! Throw out your holy relics from the Great Crusade, they are needed no longer! Instead, I've got brand-new guns of my own invention for you to use instead! Don't worry though, this guy claiming to be a Primarch says it's ok!"

 

Sure, Guilliman claims to be supported by the Emperor, and he's got the Emperors sword, and the backing of the High Lords. Well, Goge Vandire had the inherent backing of the Emperor, and was supported by the entire might of the Ecclesiarchy itself, and look how that turned out. You could forgive any Chapters for being untrusting of these developments, they haven't exactly worked out well in the past for the Imperium.

You can say that, but I can also point out to the Centurion warsuits, Stormravens, Stormtalons, Land Raider variants and all other cool stuff that saw widespread acceptance by the Astartes. All without being endorsed by a Primarch.

 

I suppose an entirely new type of Astartes is a bit different in scale, but Astartes accepting new equipment is hardly without precedent.

 

I was more talking about the Chapters all accepting Guilliman as a leader due to him being a returned Primarch. I mean, if you take the Blood Angels books as canon, then the last time a guy turned up claiming to be a returned Primarch it didn't exactly end up being correct. Yeah, the Chapters have accepted new variants of technology before, but this is modifications to the direct handiwork of the Emperor Himself, the sacred and holy geneseed.

 

 

that series is not canon, its not mentioned in codex events for timeline, not referenced in any of the books tied to any official storyline and its timing puts it at odds with current events.

[deathspectersgt7]

Yup  only the latest novels that have a selling point are referenced . SOB is in the 7th . DOB was not because of the Codex being already for print.I got a kick out of that story. But according to GW studio The Emperor is fine with everything so then we should also.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yup  only the latest novels that have a selling point are referenced . SOB is in the 7th . DOB was not because of the Codex being already for print.I got a kick out of that story. But according to GW studio The Emperor is fine with everything so then we should also.

 

I was referring to the old James Swallow novels, in which a Marine is changed to have wings, and claims to be Sanguinius Reborn.

[deathspectersgt7]

I know that and I got a kick out of it. 

[Dracos]

Couple thoughts.

 

Space is a really big place. Hiding a 100 fleets of a 100 ships in the Kuiper Belt or even Oort Cloud would be nothing.

 

I hadn't thought about it until recently but an honest look in the mirror .... each Chapter would have to admit to having failed the Emperor and mankind as guardian as caretaker for their father's realm. They may have been he same kind of Space Marines that served the Emperor, but without him they weren't up to the task. No LeBron no rings.

[crazyterran]

Why not produce both, in universe wise? Some Chapters can go all one way or the other, but I doubt we will see 45k where the means to create Adeptus Astartes has been lost and all that is left are Primaris Astartes.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why bother producing both?

 

You have a handful of supplicants, ready to become neophytes.

 

Do you use the old, outdated, weaker method, with geneseed flaws.  OR the new, quicker, stronger method with all the old organs back in and working?

 

Why choose to go with the worst option for your limited pool of recruits?

[Robbienw]

Well there is obviously some good reason for producing both, as we know both are being produced in universe currently.

 

Because there is no reason given yet, and you cant think of a reason that make sense, does not change that being a fact.

 

I can think of several reasons why you would produce both that are simple reasoning that makes sense (to me):

 

 

- The Imperium and the Space Marine chapters still want to use their vast stockpiles of highly effective wargear and venerated relic wargear that the Primaris are not able to use due.

 

 

- The Primaris as a whole fighting organisation is not yet ready to replace normal Space Marines.  They have done great reinforcing existing chapters and are superior on a 1 for 1 basis to normal marines, but the organisation as a whole currently has limited equipment, and primaris only chapters, whilst capable, are a hollow limited force.  Until Cawl and friends can produce further units and replace all the capabilities fielded by normal space marines, then Primaris are not ready to take over and this will not happen until they have a full range of capabilities in place.

 

- Not enough Primaris geneseed has been produced to replace normal marines on a 1 for 1 basis, for whatever reason.  Cawl produced new geneseed for the primaris marines, presumably you cannot use standard geneseed to activate the additional Primaris stuff.  So until enough can be made to replace recruits 1 for 1, you still make normal marines to keep numbers up.

 

- The wargear stockpiles, production facilities and geneseed for normal marines and primaris things are separate and distinct, even though the Space Marines and Primaris Marines are a similar breed of soldier.  The Imperium has vast resources.  Why not turn more of these resources to keeping *both* normal space marines (an existing resource) and Primaris marines in operation in parallel.  You have vast amounts of geneseed in existence for normal marines that cant be used for primaris, so why not keep using it rather than just throwing it away?  Why not turn resouces away from something else to do this?

[Sete]

 

 

There are no Primaris scouts. Yet.

I thought the whole Primaris Process only took a single year with low failure rate, hence no lengthy training regimen and no scouts.

I dunno man. :/ Maybe? Since reivers are basically taking scouts place.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why can't the Primaris us the stockpile of old Marine Wargear?  There is no reasonable explaination for why they cannot.

 

Can't hold a Thunderhammer or Storm Shield?  Don't know how to press the button for shoot a Plasma Cannon?

 

(And the same in reverse.  Old marines can't handle a Bolt Carbine?)

 

This is an artificial distinction GW has created to separate the lines.  With zero in universe sense behind it.

 

 

Why are Primaris only chapters 'hollow and limited'? 

 

 

Aren't Bolt Carbines and Plasma Incinerators improved *variants* of the originals?  Why would production for these necessitate being separate and distinct?  I'm sure it would be little hardship to 'upgrade' the production serfs making old Godwin Pattern Bolters to make them able to produce Cawl pattern Bolt Carbines.

 

 

As for why not use the old Geneseed stock.

 

Why waste the time and resources making an *inferior* product?  If resources, either time or material, are limited.  Then it's stupid wasting this limited resources on an inferior product.

[chamberlainskeksil]

Why can't the Primaris us the stockpile of old Marine Wargear?  

 

My gaming group lets them.  The stats are there and the cost per weapon in points are there.  So we have no problem with people making whatever they want.  People stick to the load outs of existing squads though.  So it's basically taking a tactical, assault, devastor, etc., and going +1 attack and +1 wound for 5 points per model.  Strict WYSIWYG though.  The marine needs to be taller, primaris sized and the weapons need to be what they are.

 

GW's reasoning for not doing this?  Strickly artificial related to selling products, just like you pointed out.  They made some decisions about the new sprues and weapon load outs and they like rules for models rather than rules for possible models.

 

Fortunately with every trooper and weapon having separate stats and points, it's super easy to build custom datasheets.

[Robbienw]

They are too big.  They obviously can't fit in terminator armour or regular marine armour, or the cockpits of marine fighters and transport aircraft, land speeders and so on. 

 

The primaris chapters are limited because they have a limited number of units at present.  They will be very capable but they haven't got a full range of capabilities.  They have no effective equivalent to terminator armour, no atmospheric fighters, no smaller transports, no dedicated assault units, no infantry units with heavy las or melta weaponry, no missile launchers, no dedicated battletanks tanks, no artillery support, no anti-aircraft support, no vindicator equivalent, no land speeders, no bikes, etc.

 

In effect, they are not yet a fully developed capability.  Like in the real world militiaries, generally speaking, a new capability replacing an old one is phased in gradually over time, not just instantly swapped over.  Given the state of the Imperium and 40k universe, this would probably end up taking millennia.

[chamberlainskeksil]

If a Land Raider can hold terminators or custodes (!) then it's big enough to haul primaris.  As is that one larger flyer.  We're also fine with transports in general being 2 slots taken up for each primaris.

[Robbienw]

Well yeah, pretty obvious they can fit in thuderhawks and land raiders.  Not any of the stuff I mentioned though.

 

Also I doubt they could fit in the drivers seat or crew seats of stuff like land raider, rhinos, predators, etc.  Maybe out of armour, but I still doubt it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Too big to hold a Thunderhammer?  Too big to get into a Rhino, LR or Stormraven?  They don't have to pilot them.

 

Grey Knights have a limited number of units.  Doesn't make them 'hollow and limited'. Primaris have Gravis instead of TDA.

Grey Knights have no Vindicators, Land Speeders, Bikes, etc, etc.

 

I'm sure Primaris will continue to be developed and expanded upon.  But they have more variety than the upcoming Custodians.

[Galron]

I don't see them going away in the fluff. Realistically they aren't going away in real life either. Like GW is going to suddenly decide to stop making money on rhinos, razorbacks, land raiders, and storm ravens, not to mention the zillion regular marine kits.

 

My own chapter master smirked as he took in Primaris and put them under heavy screening to make sure G-Man didn't hide some secret Order 66 in them to attack his regular marine comrades.

[Robbienw]

Too big to hold a Thunderhammer? Too big to get into a Rhino, LR or Stormraven? They don't have to pilot them.

 

Grey Knights have a limited number of units. Doesn't make them 'hollow and limited'. Primaris have Gravis instead of TDA.

Grey Knights have no Vindicators, Land Speeders, Bikes, etc, etc.

 

I'm sure Primaris will continue to be developed and expanded upon. But they have more variety than the upcoming Custodians.

I didn't say anything about Thunderhammers, I'm sure they could hold one of them, no problem there

 

They do have to pilot the aircraft and vehicles, these things are operated by space marine crews.

 

Grey Knights are an entirely different thing, they are a specialist force dedicated to hunting daemons, please no strawman arguments :)

[Ishagu]

Primaris will receive more options in future including elite close combat units. Imagine something like Invectarus Suzerains

[Gentlemanloser]

It's all the same.  IF they can hold a Thunderhammer, they can hold a Storm Shield.  They can hold a Relic Blade.  Or Lascannon.  Or Plasma cannon.

 

There is no in universe reason for why they don't use existing Marine wargear.  I'm sure if TDA can fit the larger sized astartes, it can be made to fit Primaris.

 

There is no reason Primaris cannot utilise existing wargear.  Other than GW wish to separate the model lines.

 

 

Marine vehicles can, and often are, piloted by servitors or other crew.

 

 

Grey Knights are a fully fledged Space Marine chapter, stated to be as fully effective and autonomous as any other chapter.

[justicarius6]

Grey Knights aren't a real marine chapter by any stretch of the imagination. Completely different role, recruitment, organisation, weaponry, ranking etc.

[Gentlemanloser]

You couldn't be further wrong.

 

If you'd like to educate yourself, please drop by the GK sub forum and read V's stickied post on the history of the GK.