Will 'Oldtype' Marines be completely replaced by Primaris?

[Robbienw]

I never said they couldn't hold these particular things.  They still don't deploy units that use them currently.

 

They obviously cant fit in TDA, they are way too big for it, lets not be silly.  It would have to be remanufactured to the point of it being virtually new for them to fit in it.  Same goes for any non-mkX power armour. The only thing they would fit in would be the helmets. 

 

Marine vehicles are clearly piloted by marines and setup to be so.  All models come with marine pilots/drivers/gunners, save for the storm raven which has a servitor in a turret. Take the Dark Talon for example, no way could you get a primaris in the cockpit.  I can't think of any fluff examples of serfs piloting marine tanks, land speeders or atmospheric marine fighters.  I can only think of one single example of a non-marine flying a thunderhawk in a BL book.  Its just not the case.

 

Grey Knights are not relevant, and are a specialist chapter whose primary mission is hunting daemons.  They are fully equipped to carry out their primary mission.

[Gentlemanloser]

There are numerous examples, also given in thise Primaris threads, of Marines that are abnormally large.  Like Silas Albrect of the Exorcists and a whole Chapter of Marines (the name escapes me).  If current TDA can be made to fit these giants of marines, it can be made to fit Primaris.

 

Why do they not deploy with those weapons?  They aren't too big to use them. 

 

Give a single in universe reason for why.

 

Or accept there is no logical reason, and GW have done this only to distinguish the two lines from each other.

 

Again, there is no reason that Primaris Marines cannot use existing Marine wargear.

 

Grey Knights are relevant.  They are a Space Marine chapter.  A full Space Marine chapter.  That is *fully* effective.

 

And doesn't have the same range of units as 'Codex' chapters.

 

Therefore the argument that Primaris only chapters are not fully effective, because they lack some units, holds no water.

 

Black Templars have no Libraians.  Are they also 'hollow and limited'?

 

 

There are no reasonable in universe explanations as to why the Imperium *should* continue to make inferior old marines.  When they have the ability to produce the superior Primaris Marines.

 

No reasonable explanation at all.

[deathspectersgt7]

Because the studio  the write  up for them.They are lucky that they even know how to use a  powersword. 

[Robbienw]

There are many reasonable explanations, I gave you four.  You not wanting to accept them does not change that.

 

We know for a fact that normal marines are still being made in universe.  We know for a fact they are re-enforcements to space marine chapters, not replacements, thanks to the Primaris faq GW did.  Normal marines are here to stay for the foreseeable future.

 

So there must be a reason or reasons why.  Not wanting that to be the case doesn't change that.  I'm just trying to help you out with some reasonable speculation as to why, lets not get silly about it.

[chamberlainskeksil]

Give a single in universe reason for why.

 

Or accept there is no logical reason, and GW have done this only to distinguish the two lines from each other.

 

This is my take.

 

Having been working on true scale projects, I can confirm that it's really not that hard to get primaris sized riders onto bikers or to fit into the crew area of a rhino or land speeder.  And that's without changing the kit in any way that would represent a change in the vehicle it represents.  The taller marines simply sit higher.  Much like how very tall people can fit in small cars and a simple change of a seat position is all that's needed.

 

I consider the restriction of primaris equipment to just the stuff the kits come with to be the artificial result of how GW sells kits and maps them 1:1 with rules. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I just dismantled each of your examples.

 

1: There is no reason (you have continued to avoid giving one) Primaris Marines cannot use existing Marine Wargear.

 

2: The full Primaris Chapters are just as effective as normal Marine Chapters.  Unless you have any in universe evidence of a Primaris only Chapter failing, where a normal Marine chapter has succeeded.

 

3: Have you any proof that there is not enough material to fully replace all existing marines with Primaris?  Even if that *was* the case, I doubt anyone is taking the stance the old marines will all be replaced *now*.  This will happen over time, as (if there isn't enough now) enough stock will be created.

 

4: The new Primaris Wargear are variants of existing wargear, so should not be separate production lines.

 

 

All the suggestions and examples of why simply don't hold weight under scrutiny.

 

There are out of universe reasons and examples a plenty.  But in world, there is none.

 

You could probably make an argument about Tradition and Dogma, but Cawl and Bobby G are running roughshod over that, so that's probably a bad way to go as well...

[Robbienw]

I just

Let me just stop you there.

 

There is really nothing more to say on the matter, other than there must be some in universe reason.  Whether it makes sense to you, or you like it or not is academic.

 

If you disagree with my theories, that is your problem.  They are just theories, not definitive answers.  I'm not up for engaging in ridiculous strawman arguments about Grey Knights and Thunderhammers that have nothing to do with what I was saying, and  find everything you said in counter to my theories to be non-sensical.  I still think all are credible possibilities.

 

I would be interested to hear any more theories on the matter which anyone else has in this thread :)

[justicarius6]

You couldn't be further wrong.

 

If you'd like to educate yourself, please drop by the GK sub forum and read V's stickied post on the history of the GK.

Just because they were disguised as a 2nd founding chapter does not make them anything like the standard chapters of marines. Just because they share characteristics with bread and butter marines does not make them even close to the same. Go re-educate yourself with something that isn't a forum thread perhaps?

 

As for Primaris using normal equipment, barring vehicles (which could theoretically still be modified for different height weight etc.) there isn't really a good reason why Primaris can't use older weapons or vice versa.

[Boldthreat]

Is the geneseed for the Primaris and the traditional Astartes different at this point?

 

I ask because Dark Imperium suggests that all Chapters accepted the restored/perfected geneseed offered to them by Guilliman. We all know that the geneseed is used to grow the organs that are then implanted into young boys to turn them into Astartes. So at this point, is there any Chapter even using the old geneseed? Why would they if they have been reinforced during the Indomitus Crusade? Especially considering the new geneseed fixes all the problems most genelines were having... on top of it growing three additional organs.

 

So if that theory is correct, then the counter argument against moving forward with Primaris only replacements would be because the Chapter has decided to not install 3 organs generated for them by their own geneseed. That doesn't make sense. We already established that all Chapters according to DI accepted the modified/restored geneseed. So it's not a tradition or the rejection of tampered geneseed.

 

That means that for some reason, the Chapter is choosing to fill its limited 1000 man Billets with an inferior asset that is wasting three organs already generated for that asset.

 

The valid question is why? Is it really because of an equipment issue? Why can't existed relics be retro-fitted to work with the new technology? Does the bolt rifle and bolt carbine use the same munitions as the traditional bolter? Can your relic power fist not be augmented to become a boltstorm gauntlet? I mean I get that table top wise we are missing options that I believe will be filled, but lore wise is it really an issue. Is it a speed issue? What's the set up time difference with the 3 extra organs and how different is it from a traditional install? I don't know. That may be a valid reason.

 

I keep using the Crimson Fists as my go to example, but I think it's because it's a valid case study on the future of existing chapters.

 

The Crimson Fists were dying. Their fortress monestary was destroyed along with all of their relics and geneseed stores. They then were slowly clawing their way back to validity when the Great Rift happened and a subsequent demonic invasion which saw them on the brink of death again. I imagine they lose even more relics, equipment and precious, precious geneseed in that fight.

 

Enter the Indomitus Crusade. Their geneseed stores are fully replaced per the latest codex. But it's not just a replacement. The geneseed they were given not only grew the two organs they were missing, but also three new ones that make their warriors stronger and more survivable. On top of that their chapter is also completely reinforced with active Primaris Marines in their own livery and the equipment to equip them and support them. Immediately allowing the Crimson Fists to get back into the fight.

 

Minus the initiates who were already implanted with the older traditional stock... why would the Crimson Fists not move forward with the Primaris organs and equipment? I don't think they would. I'd wager that depending on how much time has passed from then to the current post Indomitus timeline, that the Crimson Fists are almost a Primaris Chapter at this point.

 

And it's not just the Crimson Fists this happened to. Dark Angels (and their successors), Blood Angels (and their successors), Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists... all the chapters were getting bloodied and close to death post the Great Rift. Maybe not as bad as the Crimson Fists and their situation... the Blood Angels sure were though. Is it full of handwavium? Yes. Is it hasty and lacking nuance and depth? Yes. But it moves the setting forward, and I believe it's setting up Primaris as the future of the Space Marines in lore and the table top.

 

But that's all my opinion and I could be wrong. I'm just trying to read into it and see if I can guess the future.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just, please read the thread. It has excerpts from Slaves to Darkness and all Codexes onwards.  Clearly stating from GW that the GK are a full Chapter of Marines, like any other, and just as effective.

 

Robbie, why must there be?  It's just as likely that GW have dropped the ball and there *isn't* any reasons.  It's telling that you can't provide a reason that Primaris Marines can't use Thunderhammers, and try to excuse it as "non sensical".

 

If my reasoning isn't valid, then surely you could provide answers.  Why can't Primaris Marines use Thunderhammers or Plasma Cannons?  There must be an easy, obvious answer.  In universe, though.  Not just GW said so.

[Claws and Effect]

Sure, maybe armor could be resized to fit Primaris sized wearers. But in order to do so you would have to dismantle and rebuild a suit of armor that could be thousands of years old. Suits of power armor aren't just equipment, they are artifacts of a chapter's history and have value to them. 

 

Would you turn a factory original classic car into a limosine, knowing that you have destroyed the historic value of that car? Of course not. 

 

Space Marines see power armor the same way. If they have a complete suit from M33 that is not cobbled together with parts from other suits, they are NOT going to rip it apart so a bigger guy can wear it. It would be disrespectful to the suit, and by extension, the chapter. 

 

So, yes, they could resize it. But the fact that power armor is actually important to them means they won't. 

[chamberlainskeksil]

My take is that the Primaris kits and 8th edition rules simply imperfectly reflect the fiction.  There are very likely primaris marines that have picked up thunderhammers or meltaguns or got into a land raider.  The rules and kits simply fail to represent that at this time.

[Robbienw]

Robbie, why must there be? It's just as likely that GW have dropped the ball and there *isn't* any reasons. It's telling that you can't provide a reason that Primaris Marines can't use Thunderhammers, and try to excuse it as "non sensical".

 

Its really really simple.

 

Normal Marines are still being made in universe. There must be an in universe reason for it. That reason may not have been made up by gw yet. It may not have been because they can't be bothered or want to create mystery, or just want to irritate people who are wondering why. But logic dictates there must be a reason, even if it is never revealed.

 

I don't need to provide a reason why Primaris Marines can or can't use space marine thunderhammers as I

never said they couldn't, you have misunderstood what I originally said there.

 

I said the Inperium and Space Marine chapters still want to use their highly effective wargear and relics that the Primaris are not able to use. That means the *specific gear* they are *obviously not* able to use, such as a mk 7 suite of power armour for example. That doesn't mean *all* Space Marine wargear and relics, but the specific items they can't use. Pretty obvious they could wield a thunderhammer or a large relic blade.

[phoenix01]

Regarding armor re-use on Primaris marines: consider that helms and pauldrons are interchangable between the regular-sized marines and the Primaris marines kits. With little adjustment, so are the arms. Artificer armor is often built around a few pieces of an older mark of armor, perhaps a mark III dexter-side pauldron complete with decorative Aquila and laurels and a mark IV greave and poleyn. These are added to a mark VII suit, covered with adamantium and issued to a hero of the chapter.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/c6/ArtificerArmor.jpg

Also, consider Pasanius of the Ultramarines. His stature was so great that the Ultramarines' artificers and techmarines had to use parts from a damaged Terminator suit to fit him, along with other parts from a standard mark of power armor. Techmarines often have to beseech the machine spirit of everything from a simple chainsword to a suit of Cataphractii Terminator armor so as not to offend it while making repairs and modifications. So what is to prevent pieces of existing power armor from being retrofitted to Primaris marines, either as repairs to mark X or as artificer armor for Primaris captains or other heroes? Not much.

 

I'm of the mind that eventually, most chapters will be Primaris, given a thousand years or more. Right now, Primaris are fairly new, having been in use for around a century. Give me a call in the 43rd millennium to reevaluate.

[chamberlainskeksil]

Xenophobia is reason enough for a chapter to keep making marines in the proven way.  I'm fairly certain there's a conversation in Dark Imperium that gives a high percentage rate (in the low 90s) for Primaris adoptions, but it's not 100%.

 

Do I think the future of 40k is Primaris?  Yes.  I think Q3 of this year might be another Primaris release.  Just like how they had multiple warrior chambers of the Stormcast Eternals open up in Age of Sigmar as models were completed and ready for release, they'll do it with Primaris.  My own personal hope is that the next thing they come out with is a Primaris kit equivalent of the humble tactical squad.

Also, in the horus heresy novel Thousand Sons set during the destruction of Prospero, marines and custodes are mentioned as being about the same height.  So it's entirely possible that very old armour might fit the Primaris just fine as is.

[Dracos]

I applaud your patience Robbienw. Anyone receiving military training understands that even real world equipment is constantly being tinkered with and modified by its handler. But that is done on the micro level not the macro for the vast span of equipment. Anyone who has rode mototecycles understands that the equipment has to at least come close to fit a particular size individual. Pilots have to fall within certain physical parameters to qualify for training.

 

Now imagine trying to retool your entire military to be useable by a new generation of soldier who are all of a sudden reporting for duty at least a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier. A soldier who has to be custom-fitted to a suit of space age technological armor that needs to be integrated to other space age equipment. The pistol grips alone are going to be a pain in the butt :)

 

Logic is great but fictional logic arguing over fictional beings and fictional equipment needs one to divorce themselves enough from real world logic long enough to enjoy the story. Some people just can't relax enough and let things go that much. Marine to Primaris ... its going to be a marathon, not a sprint.

[Boldthreat]

I applaud your patience Robbienw. Anyone receiving military training understands that even real world equipment is constantly being tinkered with and modified by its handler. But that is done on the micro level not the macro for the vast span of equipment. Anyone who has rode mototecycles understands that the equipment has to at least come close to fit a particular size individual. Pilots have to fall within certain physical parameters to qualify for training.

 

Now imagine trying to retool your entire military to be useable by a new generation of soldier who are all of a sudden reporting for duty at least a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier. A soldier who has to be custom-fitted to a suit of space age technological armor that needs to be integrated to other space age equipment. The pistol grips alone are going to be a pain in the butt :)

 

Logic is great but fictional logic arguing over fictional beings and fictional equipment needs one to divorce themselves enough from real world logic long enough to enjoy the story. Some people just can't relax enough and let things go that much. Marine to Primaris ... its going to be a marathon, not a sprint.

All valid points. The real question though... lore wise... after the Indomitus Crusade and the plague wars... are we nearing the end of the marathon? In reality and the table top the switch was brief and a short sprint. But lore wise we are over a century into it. Are Primaris overtaking existing Chapters at this point?

[Boldthreat]

Primaris will receive more options in future including elite close combat units. Imagine something like Invectarus Suzerains

Oh I can imagine damnit! Now I need this in my life.

[deathspectersgt7]

Enough of the Inferior   !!! or saying Regular Marines are not elite .  Some people are really becoming  horses behinds . Also read Codex BA they are still using both ways of creating Marines. The studio dropped the ball on this and some of us still like our Regular Marines who have for over 20 yrs been loved by a great many hobbyists .

[Race Bannon]

=][=

Let's calm the need to share opinions and use fingers on keyboards here. 

Although opinions and discussion are welcome, if anyone feels the need to express them with more conviction, then please use PM.

[Ogun]

I think it would be interesting to do a survey of 'Do you think GW have moved away from Grim Dark?' and 'Do you think Primaris will in due course completely replace regular Marines, both in lore and in real world production?' I get the impression that 'yes' to the first may have a correlation with a 'yes' to the other.  

 

I think my response to the original question would be. 

- In Universe, based on where the overall plot is currently - yes, eventually Primaris would replace the old. But, regular marines are still clearly being created.

However - this is not a static scenario. The very caginess of GW is committing to proving many details on the Primaris suggests either that they haven't decided some things yet (quite possible), or that they know that they will be exploring certain things in more depth in the relatively near future. My personal take is that GW is still committed to Grim Dark, though I can see where the counter argument comes from. As such, I think Primaris are being set up for a fall at some point. That may not occur until 9th edition, but I think the new hope for the Imperium will be undermined. 

 

- Real world - No. Primaris were marines designed to sell more marines at a point when the main line was already saturated. By all available evidence that plan worked fine. They were also a plot mcguffin to provide a reason why on earth the Imperium survived the onset of Abaddon's Crimson Path. They also add a new element to spice up the 40k universe. They are not a grand plan by GW to replace the existing (and still very profitable) marine line. Who knows in 10 years of course, but that was not why they were created. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to contend that Primaris are an attempt to get existing Space Marines players to start again from the ground up. First Bolter Marines, then Plasma gunners and characters then specialist units.

 

Let's not pretend GW couldn't create new Space Marines units to add to existing units. Imagine if they brought back Breachers and Destroyers? Or created new units completely like dudes with Onslaught Cannons?

 

We all would have added them to our armies.

 

The new scale Marines is clearly just an attempt to stop existing 3rd party knock offs (notice how Necromunda and AoS is all bigger too?) get us to rebuy everything.

 

Got Centurions already? Now you have to get Aggressors. Got Tactical Marines already? Now it's Intercessors. Need heavy support? Now you have to buy Hellblasters and Inceptors. Already bought Assault Marines? Well now it's Reivers.

 

Being cynical perhaps but let's not pretend GW released Primaris just to be cool. There's a business reason.

 

***

 

Now, in universe obviously relies on real world. Where do we stand here? GW are testing the water. If classic Marines sell we'll see them continue to exist provided it's in decent numbers.

 

If Primaris outstrip everything then we'll see them take over.

 

It's a simple business balance.

 

(I suspect if it's an unclear balance between the 2 or classic are slightly below in sales, we'll see them phased out)

[Ishagu]

If Landraiders can transport Custodes, they can Transport Primaris too

[The Unseen]

Ishagu and I...

agree on something?

Emperor save me.

;)

 

I would be much more on board the Primaris hype train if GW hadn't made their cash grab nature so blatantly "in your face" obvious with them not fitting in any vehicle except their new shiny grav tank. (That totally unrelated costs close to a $100 us)

[Claws and Effect]

Ishagu and I...

agree on something?

Emperor save me.

;)

 

I would be much more on board the Primaris hype train if GW hadn't made their cash grab nature so blatantly "in your face" obvious with them not fitting in any vehicle except their new shiny grav tank. (That totally unrelated costs close to a $100 us)

Yeah, that's kind of irritating. And it's part of the reason I'm in no hurry to buy Primaris.

 

I have a Razorback and a Stormraven. All of my current models fit in them just fine.

 

But if I buy a single squad of Intercessors and want them to have transport I have to buy a kit that costs twice what the squad itself did?

 

Screw that.