Will 'Oldtype' Marines be completely replaced by Primaris?

[Robbienw]

It would be nice if regular marines could use the Repulsor as well.

[CapRichard]

I think that Gabriel Seth puts this discussion into the right perspective.

‘You are too noble to understand.’ Seth rounded on Dante. ‘That is not salvation, that is replacement.

These new warriors will bear the colours of Flesh Tearers, but without Sanguinius’ fury they will be Flesh Tearers in name only. All my time as Chapter Master I have waged war on our rage, to wrestle it into submission and use its strength to slay our foes. We are fury! From the time of Amit, the savage lord, to this day, we have carried the white heat of Sanguinius’ anger in us. That was our gift and our burden.

 

The flaw is what makes us what we are.’ He clenched his fist in front of Dante’s face. His voice dropped.

 

‘We are nothing without the struggle against it. He would make us all Ultramarines in red armour.’ He turned away, his gaze straying down the dead legions of Blood Angels. ‘There are few of my warriors left, few true Flesh Tearers. Once we are dead, the Flesh Tearers will be no more, no matter that these abominations carry our name. It is a betrayal, not a boon. Guilliman will want us gone quickly, and his own warriors in our stead.’

From the Devastation of Baal.

[Wargamer]

If Landraiders can transport Custodes, they can Transport Primaris too

But you already own Land Raiders, so they can't.

[Gentlemanloser]

Robbie, just saw your post in the other thread about one of the new Custodes Factions, and the proclamation that the Emperor has sanctioned the Primaris, and if you don't accept them, you're going against the Emperors will and are basically Traitors.

 

So in universe, there is no reason the Imperium would make old Marines any more, as that's going against the Emperors wishes.  Some Renegades might continue to make old Marines, if they have the ability.

 

But the Imperium won't.

 

Edit: In other thoughts about wargear uses for old Marines, weren't the restrictions on Special/Heavy weapon use and what Wargear each squad type was allowed to use attributed to the Codex Astartes?

 

And now the Author of the Codex is basically throwing it out, why are Marines still following it?  Why don't Tacticals all grab special weapons?  Why don't Devs pick up some Chainswords for counter charges?

 

Primaris Marines aren't bound by the Codex.

[Robbienw]

Robbie, just saw your post in the other thread about one of the new Custodes Factions, and the proclamation that the Emperor has sanctioned the Primaris, and if you don't accept them, you're going against the Emperors will and are basically Traitors.

 

So in universe, there is no reason the Imperium would make old Marines any more, as that's going against the Emperors wishes.

Lol no, that is not the case, let me stop you there before you get too excited :lol:

 

The specific piece of fluff says these Emissaries Custodes are visiting all chapters saying they must accept Primaris *reinforcements* they are given, and accept these warriors into their ranks as it is the emperors will etc.

 

It's says nothing about fully replacing themselves only with Primaris Marines going forward, absolutely nothing. Just that they are told of the reinforcements and they must accept what they have been given.

 

As you already know, it's a fact that Marine chapters in the current point of the timeline are still making normal Marines, so it's obviously not going against the emperors will to still make them. GW has stated themselves that Primaris are reinforcements, not replacements, and this new Custodes fluff is still in accordance with that.

 

It's just a dumb piece of fluff. Would have been cool and very in keeping with the 40k universe if some chapters had refused to take them on the ground of conservatism and through not trusting the mechanicus. But no, you must buy the new models or you dudes are heretics haha! :rolleyes:

[Blindhamster]

 

I think that Gabriel Seth puts this discussion into the right perspective.

 

‘You are too noble to understand.’ Seth rounded on Dante. ‘That is not salvation, that is replacement.

These new warriors will bear the colours of Flesh Tearers, but without Sanguinius’ fury they will be Flesh Tearers in name only. All my time as Chapter Master I have waged war on our rage, to wrestle it into submission and use its strength to slay our foes. We are fury! From the time of Amit, the savage lord, to this day, we have carried the white heat of Sanguinius’ anger in us. That was our gift and our burden.

 

The flaw is what makes us what we are.’ He clenched his fist in front of Dante’s face. His voice dropped.

 

‘We are nothing without the struggle against it. He would make us all Ultramarines in red armour.’ He turned away, his gaze straying down the dead legions of Blood Angels. ‘There are few of my warriors left, few true Flesh Tearers. Once we are dead, the Flesh Tearers will be no more, no matter that these abominations carry our name. It is a betrayal, not a boon. Guilliman will want us gone quickly, and his own warriors in our stead.’

 

From the Devastation of Baal.

 

 

except, we know by the current timeline (40ish years later than devastation of baal) that the BA primaris do indeed suffer from the thirst.

 

ergo, Dante was right, Seth was wrong.

 

*waves his little I <3 Dante flag*

[Captain Idaho]

Slightly off keel here but do the BA Primaris sti

Edit: In other thoughts about wargear uses for old Marines, weren't the restrictions on Special/Heavy weapon use and what Wargear each squad type was allowed to use attributed to the Codex Astartes?

 

And now the Author of the Codex is basically throwing it out, why are Marines still following it?  Why don't Tacticals all grab special weapons?  Why don't Devs pick up some Chainswords for counter charges?

 

Primaris Marines aren't bound by the Codex.

Actually Dark Imperium has Guilliman working within the Codex. He's made amendments as we know, such as provision for the Primaris to fit into the Chapter and the new rank of Lieutenant implemented, but Guilliman still used the Codex.

 

Interestingly, there's a moment where Guilliman creates a new position and has to bend the Codex to work it. He explained this to the Imperial representatives.

 

Guilliman wouldn't disregard the Codex as it's his great works encompassing his designs for the Adeptus Astartes, but most importantly it places a limit on the power of otherwise autonomous fighting formations.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Hi folks! Haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been said already, but I think GW has kinda put themselves in a difficult situation WRT both the fluff and the game.

 

On the fluff end, how do you justify continuing to create "normal" Marines when Primaris are just flat out better? But if you stop producing "normies", what do you do with all the current Astartes equipment that is both too small for the Primaris and too big for normal humans?

 

More importantly, on the actual game front, what do you do with "normal" Marines when the molds for the current line of Marines break? Will GW be stuck writting rules for models they no longer sell forever to avoid infuriating the Marine player base, or do they stop supporting normal Marines, rulewise, pissing off a ton of people? Or COA 3: create new iterations of all "normal" Marine kits (which I highly doubt they would do) to replace the broken molds.

 

No easy answer there. A true self-inflicted wound.

[RedSarge]

It's like the imagination of GW has given way to WYSIWYG so hard, they're no fun. Why can't the Primaris Marines just be Space Marines in a larger size. Why add lore that's contrived and ridiculous? I'm going to talk to Jervis about this!

 

There is no need to make a silly line other than to divide a player base that's niche already.

[WhatTheBlazes]

I prefer to imagine primaris as a development on the normal marine, same geneseed, just more modifications on top of the previous ones. Regular humans -> scouts, scouts -> marines, marines -> primaris. The whole range was basically put forward to solve the weird scaling issues with the outdated space marine sculpts anyway.... 

[Ishagu]

It's like the imagination of GW has given way to WYSIWYG so hard, they're no fun. Why can't the Primaris Marines just be Space Marines in a larger size. Why add lore that's contrived and ridiculous? I'm going to talk to Jervis about this!

 

There is no need to make a silly line other than to divide a player base that's niche already.

Those are opinions and not objective facts. I love the Primaris

[Captain Idaho]

The player base is divided to a greater or lesser degree.

 

And it does suck a little that Primaris and other new releases only get options for what the limited models possess.

[chamberlainskeksil]

I think if they would have led with a Primaris tactical squad with a plasma, melta, grav, flamer, missile launcher, plasma pistol, bolt pistol, power fist, chain sword, power sword (like the current tactical squad product) people would have lost their minds.

 

For all the threads on various places fighting about the primaris release and those concerned their collection is being invalidated now, had they opened up with a Primaris tactical squad, it would be magnified 10 fold.

 

I think this summer coming up they can introduce primaris with a few more weapon options.  I think it would be awesome if the space wolf codex (as much as I dislike them) is accompanied by a Primaris Blood Claw box with chainswords and some power weapons, storm shields and plasma pistols.  I don't think they'll do this though.

 

I think the Primaris are the future, but they'll be very slow to directly replace old style marine kits.

[deathspectersgt7]

Wrong  that is your opinion  . I think people would have actually embraced them .Yeah they could be the future but since the lazy way they were brought in they will be looked at with some disdain.

[chamberlainskeksil]

My position isn't that people would or would not embrace them, but that the vocal minority who would object would be simply louder and numerous enough that it would have made the change far more polarizing.  Like Age of Sigmar and the fans of the old world expressing their opinion about it for a solid year online.  It would have been so annoying and while 8th probably attracted more than enough new and returning customers to make up for any additional lost existing customers, that's not something GW could have known.  The risk would have been too great.

 

There's still a 20 page thread now about how people dislike the Primaris marines.  Add in a more overt replacement of their beloved dwarf proportioned tactical squads and it would be way worse.  Even more polarized and vitriolic.

 

I happen to believe those customers don't matter in the face of the new and returning customers that happens with any addition change.  I believe they are a really vocal minority, but the risk of being wrong about that is too great.  Space Marines are GW's top seller and they had to be super careful about not overtly invalidating both what people have recently bought and what GW plans on continuing to sell.

 

It might have had a very chilling effect on non-primaris space marine kit sales to have a product that was an overt replacement.

 

What I would have liked would be an extreme overt replacement.  Instead of intercessors, reivers, inceptors, hellblasters, aggressors, I would have loved to see them open up with a total replacement.  Primaris tacticals, assault, bikes (or jet bikes), devestators and primaris terminators.

 

It's what we do at our local weekly game.  Have primaris marines that have been modified to have traditional codex weapon load outs and just pay the points for the weapons and use them.  Or have true scale conversions of existing marine kits use the primaris base stats.

 

So while an overt replacement is what I would have wanted, I get the risk of doing so and understand why they are being more cautious.  It could easily undo tons of capital invested in recent marine kits they still want to sell.

[Sete]

Vocal Minority? Show me those rookie numbers.

For the most part what people dislike is the awfull fluff and lack of option. Except Ishagu. It could be a blue potato with the Ultramarines symbol on it and he would love it. Wait my bad, we already have the agressors.

[chamberlainskeksil]

I think any disatisfaction with GW, even during their worst years, was actually a vocal minority.  It still lead to a declining sales volume as the years went by.  But it was never a majority position or they would have had a sales collapse.

 

And now their record sales levels are in the picture.  Obviously those who dislike their stuff are in a minority compared to those who are now buying for the first time, buying again or buying more.  Increased sales does not equal quality, but it does show, quite obviously, that the product and marketing plan is obviously working.

[deathspectersgt7]

What Sete said show me those numbers. And I find it funny that people complain about Primaris name calling when they do the same thing about regular Marines.

Just to show I am not biased I actually do have Primaris Marines mixed in with my Regulars.

[Race Bannon]

DSS7, where's the Raven Guard, man?!

[deathspectersgt7]

DSS7, where's the Raven Guard, man?!

He is Coming Boss I have some in the Works.

[chamberlainskeksil]

What Sete said show me those numbers. And I find it funny that people complain about Primaris name calling when they do the same thing about regular Marines.

I think you're confusing people with different people.  Some can be annoyed at name calling inanimate objects.  Others don't care.

 

When they first showed off the MK3 marines, a friend literally asked "are they bringing squats back?"  I loled

 

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/7/29/252997_md-Forge%20World%2C%20Mk3%20Armor%2C%20Space%20Marines.JPG

 

The MK3 marines are actually my favorite marines ever, but it's still funny.

[Robbienw]

GW studio perfected the mk 3 with the plastic kit, the forgeworld ones always looked a bit.....odd.

[chamberlainskeksil]

Yeah, I absolutely love the plastic MK3 kit.  The majority of the marines I own are from the prospero box.

 

Sadly, I don't think we're going to see any more horus heresy plastics as it's going to be Primaris from here on out.  And without being a direct replacement of any previous marine kit.  That said, I hope I'm wrong and future Primaris releases will more flexible like the tactical/devestator/assault squad break down.

[Robbienw]

I reckon the next Primaris kit is going to be Primaris Indomitus Veterans, and they will be able to use a mix of Primaris weapons in the style of a company veterans squad

[Firepower]

I give GW credit in how the first wave of Primaris units didn't really step on any toes already in the codex They have their own niche and didn't simply get launched as an outright replacement to Tacticals, Devastators, etc. Limiting their weaponry options is what locked the Primaris into those very specific niches. The only real 'Buy this model to win' in the dex is Guilliman.

 

How all that changes over time will certainly dictate the fate of those marines we've been buying, painting and loving for decades. And that will decide if Marines 1.0 are replaced outright in the fluff.