Will 'Oldtype' Marines be completely replaced by Primaris?

[RikuEru]

I think if they would have led with a Primaris tactical squad with a plasma, melta, grav, flamer, missile launcher, plasma pistol, bolt pistol, power fist, chain sword, power sword (like the current tactical squad product) people would have lost their minds.

 

For all the threads on various places fighting about the primaris release and those concerned their collection is being invalidated now, had they opened up with a Primaris tactical squad, it would be magnified 10 fold.

 

I think this summer coming up they can introduce primaris with a few more weapon options. I think it would be awesome if the space wolf codex (as much as I dislike them) is accompanied by a Primaris Blood Claw box with chainswords and some power weapons, storm shields and plasma pistols. I don't think they'll do this though.

 

I think the Primaris are the future, but they'll be very slow to directly replace old style marine kits.

But why would you sell the Golden Goose, if you can sell her golden eggs FIRST!?

GW needs to sell more marines over the next YEARS.

And even though we 'only' got the weapons-wise streamlined Primaris people are already converting their own units to their liking.

 

 

I assume we will/could see a unit of Primaris with the SW Codex, something along the lines of what you described. (+ Upgrade Sprue + Lieutenant)

Make it usable for Space Wolves and "all" Chapters of Russ (Wolfspear, homebrew)

 

Later (=during campaigns or codex "expansions") they could add some kind of Biker unit, for general Primaris (= all Chapters that can use Primaris).

Then give a 'special' Version built upon that to the Sons of the Khan.

 

Make a Bolter+Chainsword + Cawl-Pattern-thingamajig-Powerweapon for the Squad Leader, for general Primaris.

Make one with Storm/Breacher-Shields for all Sons of Dorn.

 

Melta-Aggressors for Sons of Vulkan.

And on and on and on...

 

And some time later, when all this has been sold to people, make the basic Astartes Units as Primaris, watch the sales go nuts.

You can even link it with the progressing Lore. Primaris will be the majority then - and obviously need to be able to fill ALL tactical roles and they'll have enough experience to adapt to them, as the "new" generation of Marines realizes WHY the old did as they did for 10000 years.

 

And there is STILL the strange blank of Mk9 Armor.

Deathwatch is MK8. Grey Knights are Aegis Armor, but not a Mark of their own. (And was developed BEFORE Mk8)

 

I could easily see GW going the Route of:

Mk9 is a more elaborate precursor to MkX.

Basically "concepts" done by Cawl, as the Primaris were laying in their cryo sleep.

Suited to be worn by "Old" Astartes, elevates their powers to Primaris Level.

They are very few a number, due to their Artificer-Quality. Even First Foundings get very few of them.

Or go even further and make them all kinda'unique'. And through sheer and absolutely unexpected coincidence their special effects match the character who inherits these.

 

Tadaa! Ragnar Blackmane, "the Young King" can now take the reigns! Vulkan He'Stan can fulfill his prophecy! Shrike will be the Emperor's Shadow!

Look at these shiny new digitally modelled Character Models!

 

 

EDIT:

And I could easily see the Characters from Felix' Squad (Bjarni and Co) in Dark Imperium elevated to leading roles among the Primaris of their respective Founding Chapter.

There was one for each First Founding Chapter described, I think?

[deathspectersgt7]

@Chamberlainskeksil ref to post #171 no confusion on my part .

[Dracos]

Anecdotal ... I'm a returning player from 2nd through 5th editions. I got out when Armageddon started up. The idea of each army being individually "balanced" no longer was on the wall and cash grabbing seemed to diminish good writing.

 

The Primaris models have brought me back. The writing doesn't seemed to age improved but I guess this is what we get when creativity is driven by selling models and there doesn't "appear to be" a long term business plan other than wash and rinse every five years.

 

But I really like the models so here I am. Ive played Eldar, Guard, and various types of my favorite ... Space Marines. I tend to agree with earlier post. Introduced as a replacement for Tacticals with all the options would have been horrible decision. Even as someone drawn back after all these years it would have left a sour taste toward Primaris.

 

I'm looking forward to Primaris play as much as models because it's going to FORCE me to not only relearn the game but learn how to play Space Marines in a while me way. I'm excited by that in a way that if they played same as Tacticals I would not have been. I do look forward to options being added to the Primaris line but I don't want to see them play like normal Space Marines. It's a shame they didn't hold off on Centurians. I think they would have fit in well with a Primaris only army, better than Aggressors whi I'm not sure I'm sold on yet. I need a real anti-tank team. And not sure they can handle it (and the Repulsor aesthetics are ugly in my opinion)

 

I'm digressing sorry. Point is I don't see regular Space Marines going away anytime soon and their flexibility will keep them popular leaving Primaris only armies for players who like a more challenging playing experience :)

[RedSarge]

 

It's like the imagination of GW has given way to WYSIWYG so hard, they're no fun. Why can't the Primaris Marines just be Space Marines in a larger size. Why add lore that's contrived and ridiculous? I'm going to talk to Jervis about this!

There is no need to make a silly line other than to divide a player base that's niche already.

Those are opinions and not objective facts. I love the Primaris

And love is an emotion :p

[chamberlainskeksil]

 

But why would you sell the Golden Goose, if you can sell her golden eggs FIRST!?

GW needs to sell more marines over the next YEARS.

And even though we 'only' got the weapons-wise streamlined Primaris people are already converting their own units to their liking.

 

I think GW was being careful.  Had Primaris been poorly received and some people sort of bought them but not really any more than existing space marines, then they'd have their smattering of units with no options and that's that.  It's sort of a safe move test.  You don't invalidate the existing space marine line and you have a pretty self contained product line that you can directly measure in terms of sales comparisons.

 

I hope they get braver.  My group is definitely one where people are already converting their own units and making up our own datasheets for things like a Primaris Tactical squad or whatever, so I would love to see some more options in the kits.

 

How I think they'll actually do it is the way they did it for the sigmarines for AoS.  Sigmar is opening up "warrior chambers" and allowing the warriors therein to finally leave Azyrheim after years of training and preperation.  So when they have enough models for a product launch, they release them along with some warscrolls and have a fictional event where Sigmar opens up the chamber.

 

I wonder if they'll do the exact same thing with Cawl opening up the vaults on Mars or something?

 

 

[Boldthreat]

I can really appreciate the many facets of this discussion.

 

On one hand I agree that the roll out and introduction of the Primaris Marines is seemingly, poorly thought out and incomplete.  Did a new breed of Astartes really need to be created?  A scale increase and redesign could have easily been introduced as the future of the line and lore-wise as Guilliman making changes to the Space Marines of this age.  Furthermore, the stat/rule changes could have easily been explained as them updating the Space Marines for 8th Edition.   I know my wallet would have opened just the same.  The transition I think, would have been relatively clean.  But unfortunately they didn't do this.  And now we are left with some rather big holes that need filled in for this all to make sense:

 

If the Ultima Founding was this big deal and created a bunch of new Primaris Only Chapters, especially on the onset of the greatest Crusade in 10,000 years... why do we not have any idea how these chapters organize?  Who are their heroes?  What is the make up of their Veteran companies?  Scout Companies?  Reserve Companies?  Do Inceptors replace Land Speeders, Bikes and Assault Marines?  Are Aggressors Terminator replacements or are they meant to facilitate that role in the regular line Companies?  As good as a universe setting novel as Dark Imperium was... it left out all this crucial detail... and the Space Marine Codex that we just got skipped out on all this stuff to.  That seems lazy and incomplete... and since I don't believe that GW are lazy or incompetent... it must because they are holding onto the full picture and releasing it in stages.  That has to be it... or at least that is where my hope is.  

 

But... on the other hand I can and have embraced the idea of the Primaris.  Not because I am happy with all of the changes... because I am not.  I am not convinced that Mark X armor looks better than Mark VII.  I would have preferred a new up-scaled Mark VI,VII,VIII line up.  I did not initially like the idea of traditional Astartes being replaced... or the idea that we now have "Traditional or Inferior" Astartes to begin with.  That description in no way does justice to the idea of what a Space Marine is.  Now we have regular super soldier, regular + super soldier, regular ++ Super Soldier and now Custodes... ugh.  But I do like what I have seen so far.  I like Intercessors.  I like Aggressors.  I really like Inceptors and what their application does to traditional Astartes units like bikes and landspeeders.  I am eager to see what we haven't seen for the Primaris.  Yes the Lore for them could have been better... but it is what it is now and I can get behind that.  What helped me was acknowledging that Primaris aren't "replacing" Space Marines.  The Primaris are an evolution of the Space Marines.  I can tolerate the older Chapters haven't completely transitioned given the current scenario... but I want to know why.  I want to know why you wouldn't immediately start training your own Primaris moving forward.   Not actively retiring your older stock, but replacing it as vacancies happen (and post great rift boy do they happen).  Are the Crimson Fists almost completely Primaris?  The Marines Errant?  Astral Knights?  Scythes of the Emperor?  Executioners?  I think that idea is cool.  Its progress in the setting.  I don't want to read about Ventris and Calgar and Helbrecht (Emperor forgive me on that one)... no I want to read about new heroes and new conflicts.  Space Marines should die... including our heroes, and when they die... I want to read about this new Primaris Black Templar that stepped up to lead the Chapter... and the struggles he faces in filling those shoes.

 

The Primaris have me excited for the future of the game and the setting.  

[Firepower]

I don't want to read about Ventris and Calgar and Helbrecht (Emperor forgive me on that one).

 

You don't.  You really don't.  The Guilliman-Helbrecht conversation is as poorly thought out as the rest of this new fluff.  

 

This is a bit of a tangent, but what confuses me is the sudden push by a lot of people to just outright kill off all the old Characters.  It's completely arbitrary, to the point of at times coming across as just plain spiteful.  Not "let's focus on new characters" but flat out "kill Helbrecht/Dante/Grimnar."  Even stranger is the notion that it would remove them from the game.  How long has Tycho been dead now?

[Boldthreat]

Very valid point Firepower. That's my main beef with the setting as a whole truthfully. I don't want to hold onto this character or that. My own headcannon fluff of the setting is as a preverbial meat grinder and our heroes shouldn't be safe. Heck it's one of the best parts about Rogal Dorn is that he dies.

I don't want the setting to become herohammer... I want the opposite. Unfortunately returning Primarchs don't bode well for me. But I enjoy that my own captain mcnobody can fight with Guilliman in some campaign.

The great rift and the Indomitus Crusade was supposed to be a big deal... but everyone's still alive? I get that this is the way it's traditionally done... but it's another missed opportunity in the new lore to really shake things up and change that.

 

To further clarify what I mean... I want more Carab Culln progression, and to a lesser extent what happened with Sgt. Lysander.   I want evolving characters and replacements.  Even though we never got much regarding Vladimir Pugh... I enjoyed reading about his death.  This is Warhammer... these guys are Space Marines... they lead from the front and the front is some hellish... apocalyptic nightmare full of demons, monsters and various forms of high tech, crazy super weapons... I don't see anyone retiring lol.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm still not convinced we even needed a larger scale model of Marines.

 

They're huge. Far too big to be considered 28mm scale models.

 

I just get perplexed when everyone talks as if it's what we've always wanted. When? I don't remember the B&C or Warseer asking for such big models in large numbers. Only ever one or 2 people doing conversions.

 

Genuinely confused.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

This is a bit of a tangent, but what confuses me is the sudden push by a lot of people to just outright kill off all the old Characters.  It's completely arbitrary, to the point of at times coming across as just plain spiteful.  Not "let's focus on new characters" but flat out "kill Helbrecht/Dante/Grimnar."  Even stranger is the notion that it would remove them from the game.  How long has Tycho been dead now?

 

Yup, seems somewhat masochistic too 'make this faction I like suffer!'. Or the more 'charitable' interpretation, that they're looking for an excuse to fully cut ties with something that they are increasingly bitter about. That said, if GW do start taking that approach I really hope they don't go the way I expect, where only Imperial characters get the chop. If they start pushing a story with character death, have all factions suffer. Kill some Chaos bigwigs too. Especially Abbadon .

[Boldthreat]

 

 

This is a bit of a tangent, but what confuses me is the sudden push by a lot of people to just outright kill off all the old Characters. It's completely arbitrary, to the point of at times coming across as just plain spiteful. Not "let's focus on new characters" but flat out "kill Helbrecht/Dante/Grimnar." Even stranger is the notion that it would remove them from the game. How long has Tycho been dead now?

 

Yup, seems somewhat masochistic too 'make this faction I like suffer!'. Or the more 'charitable' interpretation, that they're looking for an excuse to fully cut ties with something that they are increasingly bitter about. That said, if GW do start taking that approach I really hope they don't go the way I expect, where only Imperial characters get the chop. If they start pushing a story with character death, have all factions suffer. Kill some Chaos bigwigs too. Especially Abbadon .

Hehe, I guess the Imperial fist fan in me has me numb to my guys dying. It's what we do... heck our whole chapter died once! Top that ultramarines (lol).

 

Or it's a holdover from my battletech days... if Hanse Davion can die of a heart attack then by God Marneus Calgar can die gloriously in battle and give the poor Ultramarines 1st Company captain a model!

[Dracos]

 

I don't want to read about Ventris and Calgar and Helbrecht (Emperor forgive me on that one).

 

 

You don't.  You really don't.  The Guilliman-Helbrecht conversation is as poorly thought out as the rest of this new fluff.  <_<

 

This is a bit of a tangent, but what confuses me is the sudden push by a lot of people to just outright kill off all the old Characters.  It's completely arbitrary, to the point of at times coming across as just plain spiteful.  Not "let's focus on new characters" but flat out "kill Helbrecht/Dante/Grimnar."  Even stranger is the notion that it would remove them from the game.  How long has Tycho been dead now? :teehee:

It's a relevant tangent. I haven't noticed this as an it trend but I've seen it in my peripheral vision. It's likely part of people's desire to want everything now now now. They think that if the old heroes die GW will embrace making a new generation of heroes for their Primaris. I get it and would accept it myself but personally I think it's too soon. Just like it's too soon to add too many new units to the Primaris (although a dedicated tank/monster unit would be most welcome).

 

This game has developed best when it did so slowly over the last 20ish years - in my opinion. New heroes and units will come. We need to be patient though or we'lll get material that will either be OP or useless. I think we can all think of a unit or two like that. :)

 

Did we "need" to revise the Space Marine? My personal answer is Emperor yes oh yes. The base Marine has never came close to living the fluff on the game table. Yeah I know a base movie Marine would be probably 50 points and for various reason that won't work but the Primaris is looking like an nice start :D Patience is the word of the day

[Firepower]

The thing is, a lot of those old heroes define the Chapter.  It's not Herohammer per se, but rather using individuals to emphasize, reinforce and flesh out themes laid out in the general text of a Codex.  Characters have always been a way to extend the idea of a Chapter into something 'real.'  The desire to wipe that all away and start fresh with a new generation of God-knows-what isn't just pushing things 'forward,' but asking a huge chunk of Chapters' identities to be erased and forgotten.  If they're replaced with new Primaris heroes written in the same vapid stylings of the Primaris introduction...just, no.  No.

[Dracos]

Totally agree

[Boldthreat]

The thing is, a lot of those old heroes define the Chapter.  It's not Herohammer per se, but rather using individuals to emphasize, reinforce and flesh out themes laid out in the general text of a Codex.  Characters have always been a way to extend the idea of a Chapter into something 'real.'  The desire to wipe that all away and start fresh with a new generation of God-knows-what isn't just pushing things 'forward,' but asking a huge chunk of Chapters' identities to be erased and forgotten.  If they're replaced with new Primaris heroes written in the same vapid stylings of the Primaris introduction...just, no.  No.

 

Would it be though?  I am not so sure.  I mean I get what you are saying, and from your position I somewhat agree.  There have been space marines in previous codex's that have gone away, Xavier and Cortez on the top of my head.  Granted, those characters were not Calgar... or Dante.  The special characters that we have are an extension of the Chapters we play, and I understand the fear of new fluff for new characters considering some of GW's missteps; but I would hate for that to hinder the progression of the Chapters we love.

 

I really enjoyed Culln's transformation from Sgt, to Chapter Master, to revered Dreadnaught.  I hope Forgeworld continue the progress and introduce more characters that I can get to know and care about.  I would expect these new characters to be paragons of the Chapter in their own right, but still be different characters.  And maybe I am being to aggressive in wanting to see progression with these Chapters and their Characters.  Dark Imperium gives us a quick glimpse into the future of the setting... are we going to stop here and just play footsie with that ideal?  Or actually do it.  One of the things that is somewhat bothersome with the Heresy is that we for the most part know who lives and who dies.  I am ready for more novels in this current timeline because I want to actually be shocked by deaths and things like that.  Yes, Calgar's last stand would be a crappy novel for the Ultramarine's and their fans, but it could potentially be an awesome story!  Would a new Primaris Ultramarine Captain just be Sicarius 2.0?  Maybe... but it would be better than GW doing another hand waive and say "Buy the new Primaris Sicarius!, who reappeared and drank Cawl's new milkshake"  Which I fear is coming.  

 

But I also agree it shouldnt be just the Imperials that this happens to.  And the question then comes how far are we going to go down this hole?  I dont know, maybe not much further...  Maybe thats how they justify all these existing Chapter Masters and traditional astartes... by only moving slightly forward and freezing the setting in a particular time period.  If so great, I hope they update the traditional miniatures.  

[Captain Idaho]

GW would do well to hold off killing major characters we have models for. Why should I buy some models that are then obsolete? Yeah yeah yeah, use Calgar as a count as Captain - except how would I add a dual powerfist modem to the army? May as well add an Ork with Power Claw to my army!

 

Deliberately hyperbolic...

 

Older models need updating but some last the test of time.

[Gentlemanloser]

Dead in fluff doesn't mean obsolete in game.

 

I find it funny the setting has moved on 100 years, and folk aren't surprised *any* old character have snuffed it.  And not even form old age.

 

If you're fighting the worst war since the heresy, for 100 years, you'd expect some notable casualties wouldn't you?

 

Then again, this can hardly be seriously classed as the worst war since the Heresy. :P

[Captain Idaho]

Of course dead in the fluff means dead in the game. Dead in the fluff means you're less likely to get a new model ever. New rules? Unlikely.

[Gentlemanloser]

Tycho is still used.  I'm sure there's some of the guard characters that are actually dead (or after 100 years *should* be dead).

 

Edit: Was going to mention Eldar.  But they can just bring anyone back now...

[Sete]

Just put the Chapter Masters on Potato armour and give them the Primaris keyword. Extra wound and extra toughness. Sorted.

[Captain Idaho]

Tycho is still used.  I'm sure there's some of the guard characters that are actually dead (or after 100 years *should* be dead).

 

Edit: Was going to mention Eldar.  But they can just bring anyone back now...

We don't mention Eldar in these parts, except killing them.

 

But Tycho is the one example there is.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or to curse the damn Reapers...  Grrr....

[SickSix]

Yeah. For sales reason no First Founding chapter is going to reject Primaris. They may toss some lesser known successor chapter out there as the sacrificial non-adopters and then have the Custodes kill them. Therefore sending a message to everyone else.

 

But yes. Primaris will replace all (loyal) Trumarines in fiction and store shelves eventually.

 

PS. Wait, has there been ANY mention of Iron Hands and Primaris yet? That might be the one original chapter to truly say 'F Off Girly Man!'

[Bryan Blaire]

Just put the Chapter Masters on Potato armour and give them the Primaris keyword. Extra wound and extra toughness. Sorted.

They could have done that for every single Marine and just forgone the need for an additional keyword at all, and Bob’s your uncle and sold both types of models. Then no one is worried about invalidation, because you can still get the “old scale”, but there’s a “new scale” to get, and you get new SM models for folks like Calgar, Dante, Azrael, etc.

 

Firepower, the only reason I’ve advocated for getting rid of any characters is IF the Studio is no longer interested in the individual character, since we’ve been told that the characters or units are “interesting” to the Studio enough to make a new model for it. My worry is that they’ve had the same 2nd & 3rd Ed models for so long that the Studio is hesitant to make new ones and bring them up to snuff or that they no longer find them interesting and won’t make new models of them ever - in which case it’d be better to get rid of the character so that they have the design space to create a new model and character to fill the hole.

[Scammel]

I'm still not convinced we even needed a larger scale model of Marines.

 

They're huge. Far too big to be considered 28mm scale models.

 

I just get perplexed when everyone talks as if it's what we've always wanted. When? I don't remember the B&C or Warseer asking for such big models in large numbers. Only ever one or 2 people doing conversions.

 

Genuinely confused.

I suspect Age of Sigmar was the ultimate catalyst. I have an inkling that it was considerably more successful than many of us would have liked it to be, and that the scale played a part in that (especially compared to the small, fiddly and financially intimidating ranks of Fantasy).

 

GW might not necessarily be drawing the right lessons in terms of trying import some of that success into 40k as an existing game, but if I'm honest, Primaris scale is where I would start if I wanted to create an accessible skirmish/small battle game with well-detailed models.