Sicaran Venator - the best tank hunter Marines have.

[Ishagu]

I'm surprised people don't talk about this vehicle much. Are many running it?

 

We often complain that our tanks don't have enough punch compared to what other armies might have access to.

I think the Venator is, point for point, the best tank hunter Marines can run.

 

With Las Cannon sponsons, it hits a cost of 230 - That's 40 more than a Predator Annihilator.

So what do you get for those extra points?

 

-A main weapon far superior to a Twin Las Cannon with an extra shot - this is worth more than 25 points more by itself

-A heavy bolter to take a few shots at lighter units

-Movement of 14" and no penalty to fire heavy weapons if doesn't stay still. This is massive and means you can deploy the tank to the side or out of LoS, then move to a position to fire without sacrificing any accuracy.

-14 wounds, 3 more than a Predator

 

This tank can deal massive damage to other vehicles, stay hidden effectively before doing so, and further cripples their firepower by applying a negative hit modifier to units it manages to damage.

Not to mention it looks really cool compared to the small, aging Rhino chassic designs.

 

Thoughts?

Edited January 15, 2018 by Ishagu

[Biscuittzz]

Forgeworld is still probably disallowed in a lot of metas so wouldn't see much use. That and a lot of people also maybe do not like working with resin. So there can be plenty of personal reasons why.

 

230 points cost is misleading though, as isn't the Venator a Relic? So it's 230 points + the cost of the other heavy slot tax. Cheapest HS is about what? 100 points, so really it's 330 or so. If people are only planning on taking one heavy support slot in the first place then the Venator is a no go. I am correct in saying it's a Relic right? I'll need to check.

 

My own personal reason is close to what I said above - I don't really like the model. 

[BloodTzar]

You have forgot much more forgiving "degeneration" table :), this vehicle is gem among the SM arsenal. I have proxied 2 once, and they erased Mortarion t1 ... to be fair I had have 1st turn so he was not buffed.

 

Overall I am happy I have just received mine 2 although they are meant to be WB 30k ones :)

 

~BT

[Ishagu]

All the Sicarans are actually elite choices, strangely enough.

 

Also, following Chapter Approved, who is disallowing Forgeworld? The units are fine, nothing is broken or overpowered. The best units across all factions are still regular GW models. The FW options are additions to armies that might be lacking in certain categories. People telling you that models you've bought and lovingly painted are banned are anti hobby and should be ignored, especially now that these units are talked about and updated in GW publications I can buy off the shelf.

 

And yes, the stat degradation is very good for vehicles of this type, and they remain very fast even down to 1 wound.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Ishagu

[Biscuittzz]

Ahhhh, I didn't have the book available so if it's an elite that changes everything then. 

[Prot]

All the Sicarans are actually elite choices, strangely enough.

 

Also, following Chapter Approved, who is disallowing Forgeworld? The units are fine, nothing is broken or overpowered.

 

Mine disallows it. The units are not all fine. If you love using them, enjoy it. Just stop force feeding it to us all the time.

[Ishagu]

I'm not trying to stir the pot or force anything down anyone's throat. I made this topic because I'm excited to talk about this unit - I've just started working on one and I'm looking forward to running it in the near future.

[Ipsen]

Forgeworld is still probably disallowed in a lot of metas so wouldn't see much use. That and a lot of people also maybe do not like working with resin. So there can be plenty of personal reasons why.

 

230 points cost is misleading though, as isn't the Venator a Relic? So it's 230 points + the cost of the other heavy slot tax. Cheapest HS is about what? 100 points, so really it's 330 or so. If people are only planning on taking one heavy support slot in the first place then the Venator is a no go. I am correct in saying it's a Relic right? I'll need to check.

 

My own personal reason is close to what I said above - I don't really like the model. 

 

It's not a heavy it's an elite. Not really a tax in a space marine force.

[deathspectersgt7]

Like the Omega Better. Looks wise.

[Magos Takatus]

Personally I think the standard Sicaran's more streamlined appearance looks better and I'd probably prefer to buy a model I liked more rather than one with better stats in the game. I understand that that isn't as important a fact as tabletop performance to some, other people might prefer the larger gun aesthetically. Having a fixed weapon no longer confers any disadvantage in 8th edition rules, correct?

[Ishagu]

Oh looks to me are really, really important.

 

I do think this standard and venator variants are the most aesthetically pleasing :-)

[Melete]

All the Sicarans are actually elite choices, strangely enough.

 

Also, following Chapter Approved, who is disallowing Forgeworld? The units are fine, nothing is broken or overpowered. The best units across all factions are still regular GW models. The FW options are additions to armies that might be lacking in certain categories. People telling you that models you've bought and lovingly painted are banned are anti hobby and should be ignored, especially now that these units are talked about and updated in GW publications I can buy off the shelf.

 

And yes, the stat degradation is very good for vehicles of this type, and they remain very fast even down to 1 wound.

Actually a whole lot of FW units tend to be over so slightly stronger than codex ones. Mortis/Contemptor Mortis/Deredeo all overwhelm shooty Codex Dreads. Leviathans cost a lot of points, but are very well worth their value (maybe our strongest HS vehicle). Several Sicaran variants (Venator included) are quite good, again arguably the best vehicles we've got. Whirlwind Scorpius is excellent. Tarantulas are one our best FA options. And we all know how good Fire Raptors are now.

 

It's more complicated than "FW is OP" of course, but I wouldn't say that nothing FW makes is overpowered. There are units that are definitely stronger point for point than their codex brethren; just look at a Contemptor Mortis with Las compared to a Predator, for less than 1 Intercessor you get BS2+ with an invulnerable save and only 1 less wound. Whether or not that makes the unit overpowered compared to every other model in the game is another discussion, but if we're just talking about Codex options, they're quite good.

[Ishagu]

Aside from the Mortis Contemptor, all those other kits are priced higher then codex alternatives, so you'd expect higher stats.

[Melete]

Aside from the Mortis Contemptor, all those other kits are priced higher then codex alternatives, so you'd expect higher stats.

Stronger meaning they're better value for points, not that they're more points. 

[Ishagu]

I didn't say some of the units aren't very point efficient.

This is exactly the issue; a lot of Marine units are underwhelming, and in cases fall behind when compared to equivalents from other armies.

Some of these options help in this regard. The relic limitation is a significant balancing factor - for example you can't run more than one Sicaran in a Battalion detachment, and even if you want to run more in a Vanguard you still have to take multiple other units as a tax.

[Kallas]

The relic limitation is a significant balancing factor - for example you can't run more than one Sicaran in a Battalion detachment, and even if you want to run more in a Vanguard you still have to take multiple other units as a tax.

 

A Battalion can have 6 Elites. You could run 3 Sicarians, if you wanted (and for a minimal tax of 96pts [3x2 bare Company Veterans]) if you so desired.

[Ishagu]

Ahh my mistake. I thought it was limited to 3