Your thoughts on the Primaris and lore progression

[FerociousBeast]

Primaris marines killed 40k for me

 

I'm 36 years old. When I was a teenager, my cousin first introduced GW's wild, crazy, grim, dark 40k universe to me. He collected and painted Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Tyranids, and I was hooked. My imagination captured by the description of a bleak and hopeless galaxy where even the good guys are guilty as hell. My morbid curiosity piqued by the glimpses into the dystopian, flesh-machine-meld visions from John Blanche's twisted mind. My mind, well-read of literature and history, alight from sly and abundant references to cultures and stories from across the history of our real-life globe. My adolescent blood charged by stories of desperate last stands, planetary devastation, insidious Inquisitors, the nightmare landscape of the warp.

 

Truth be told, I still am.

 

Even after twenty years of finding more and more reasons to hate GW, bemoaning the new and thinner blood replacing the venerable ancients at GW who crafted this masterpiece, and the old tale of starting a career and family and finding fewer and fewer resources available to invest in the hobby, I still couldn't completely turn away. Until now.

 

Primaris marines. What is it about them that kills it all for me? Why should they be the final nail in the coffin? I can't say that I fully understand it myself, but there is one thing that rears up before me, that I can't look past.

 

For twenty years, a space marine has been the pinnacle of human achievement. The tactical squad has been the valiant mainstay of the chapter. Old technology is sacred and the hunt for a functioning STC eternal. The space marine is known by his power armor, his bolter, and his chainsword. The Codex Astartes is inviolable and untouchable. But now we have these new... things. New power armor, new inexplicably better bolters--and suddenly more breeds of bolter than you can count on two hands--grav tanks to put the Land Raider to shame, and somehow there's not a chainsword to be seen. We are asked to accept that these dudes have been playing solitaire back on Mars for thousands of years, that actually science and engineering haven't died, that an Imperium that has an aversion to new technology and a sacred reverence for tradition just... got better.

 

For twenty years, Rick Priestly and John Blanche's original vision has kept me from drifting too far in my affections, but now, this new GW has instituted a break with the past. It was the past that held me, and GW is looking to a new future.

 

Warhammer 40,000, post-Guilliman/8th edition, is unrecognizable, and I no longer have the patience to invest in loving it again.

[Schlitzaf]

The best answer I have and the reason I suspect Primaris even exist;

 

The Space Marine statline over the years has become worthless. And the Primaris I suspect is basically GW doing a meta commentary on that fact. Not to say your wrong in your thoughts or opanion.

 

But I truly believe GW was trying honestly to try and fix the Space Marine

[Tyrannicide]

GW wanted the 40k Marine players to buy more Marines. Case closed.

[Warhead01]

The best answer I have and the reason I suspect Primaris even exist;

 

The Space Marine statline over the years has become worthless. And the Primaris I suspect is basically GW doing a meta commentary on that fact. Not to say your wrong in your thoughts or opanion.

 

But I truly believe GW was trying honestly to try and fix the Space Marine

It's almost like GW power creep'd so hard they invalidated their flagship. It is also related to having too many Marine or MEQ's out there.  

 

I do understand not recognizing 40K anymore for me that was directly related to army lists last edition.  

I don't really mind the Nu-marines I just have no interest in collecting them.  If it wasn't for 30K I wouldn't even own a power armoured army at all these days. 

[Ganders]

I'm roughly the same age as you and I've also been into the hobby for over twenty years with a break in the middle and I pretty much agree with you.

 

I always had great plans for marines but I feel now all my plans for conversions and painting is pointless.

 

I actually wish they had just been honest and said this is the new marine range. They're bigger and more true scale as we now have the tech to make them like we always imagined. Instead of this primaris nonsense.

 

However I also feel from a business pov it's probably a winner and I'm probably not the target audience.

[shandwen]

The primaries is merely the latest in the spread of better-than-super soldiers. To a small extent the primarchs were the beginning and to a larger extent the custodes were another, but over the last 20+ years marines have been washed out. Fluff has consistently shown there to always be a bigger, bader enemy. Marines were obsolecent. With any evolving fluff there dies come a point where goodbyes are made, and we can look back with rose tinted goggles on the good things. If this is the end of this hobby for you I wish you fair winds and following seas.

[chamberlainskeksil]

We swapped!  We're close to the same age and started in the 90s.  Primaris brought me back in and made 40k alive for me again, whereas it did the opposite for you.

One thing I'd recommend is remembering that Jar Jar Binks is canon in star wars.  So it's okay to have a personal take on a fictional universe that excludes elements you don't like.

[Ishagu]

You know, I've been a fan for 21 years, and I started collecting a long time ago.

 

A lot of "old timers" say this and that about the lore, but the truth is that 40k was almost satirically dark, yet if I looked for them, was full of silly and completely unrealistic things.

 

The biggest difference between now and then is the art style in the books. Gone is the semi black and white, bleached Blanche style artwork. We now have glossy, full colour illustrations.

 

Very little has changed in the settings. It's as silly as always, although less satirical than it used to be.

[Wargamer]

Consider:

1. Space Marine Codices come out - new models (Primaris).
2. Chaos Codices come out - new models (Death Guard and TKSons).
3. Guard Codex comes out - no new models.
4. AdMech comes out - no new models.
5. Eldar comes out - no new models.
6. Tyranids come out - no new models.
7. Custodes come out - new models (the entire sodding range).

There does seem to be a push towards phasing out anything that isn't wearing Power Armour...

[Guest Triszin]

Consider:

1. Space Marine Codices come out - new models (Primaris).
2. Chaos Codices come out - new models (Death Guard and TKSons).
3. Guard Codex comes out - no new models.
4. AdMech comes out - no new models.
5. Eldar comes out - no new models.
6. Tyranids come out - no new models.
7. Custodes come out - new models (the entire sodding range).

There does seem to be a push towards phasing out anything that isn't wearing Power Armour...

I'd argue that they want to redo the most popular armies first, as that will be the biggest speedbump(reaction from base) as compared to revamping the other lines.

 

Ifthe xeno's got revamped first, and marine players knew they were getting revamped down the road, they'd speedbump hard and panick and hitting sales hard, do most of the power armor revamps first, then focus on the xenos.

 

This causes the xeno players to get excited awaiting there line revamp/new models, and mitigates the speed bump of revamping the marine line.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

GW has long shown the fans that loyalty means nothing in the face of reporting profit to the shareholders. The assertion that Primaris were introduced to fix or balance marines is even more laughable. Marine purchases were more likely stagnating because most people probably had backlogs of models and only purchased the odd item here or there so the only solution is to introduce a whole new line of shiny marine toys.

 

I'm still of the belief that Primaris are not here to immediately replace the old marines simply because GW can still get a lot of mileage and profit out of the current molds until they're no longer viable (and this has held true against all the doomsayers who PROMISED us that the entire marine range was going extinct within 6 months of the Primaris being released), but I think that, in time, Primaris will begin to slowly supplant the old marine line until it's gone entirely. 

[Captain Idaho]

I don't mind the fluff for Primaris. It isn't where I wanted it to go but hey, ain't my game. I might win the lottery and buy the company yet.

 

I just don't like my purchases going the way of Warhammer Fantasy legacy armies.

 

I'd like GW to release to some new models for the rest though. Where are my Tactical Marines Breachers? Where are my Destroyers Assault Marines? Where are the new models for other armies and factions?

 

The release schedule is notably boring. Primaris, Death Guard, Custodes and Thousand Sons all got new models but the rest of the hobby nothing?

[Wargamer]

I think bringing back Heresy units into 40K would be a very smart move for GW. It creates a positive feedback loop around their Heresy era armour sets and boosts Forgeworld's profitability as well.

[SITZKRIEG!]

Ironically, the primaris models brought me back to 40k modelling after being turned off for the most part to all things 40k during the excesses of the grossly unbalanced 6th/7th editions era.  I'm not a fan at all of how they were introduced in the fluff but I do like the basic intercessor models themselves as a long time fan of "truscale" marines.  I just wish they had introduced it at the Mk X armor and Cawl pattern bolters but kept the marine statline the exact same.  In 40k, there wasn't a difference traditionally in game between a model that had a beaky mk 6 or the brand new for its time Mk 8.  Just like when the old RTB01 box was phased out in favor of 2nd edition plastics and later the 3rd edition sprues, the primaris should have been incorporated into the game rules seamlessly instead of as a super duper alternative to the only super marines.  YMMV.

[battle captain corpus]

I just ignore them completely. They hold zero interest to me as both a hobbyist and a Chaos player.

 

BCC

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Consider:

1. Space Marine Codices come out - new models (Primaris).
2. Chaos Codices come out - new models (Death Guard and TKSons).
3. Guard Codex comes out - no new models.
4. AdMech comes out - no new models.
5. Eldar comes out - no new models.
6. Tyranids come out - no new models.
7. Custodes come out - new models (the entire sodding range).

There does seem to be a push towards phasing out anything that isn't wearing Power Armour...

 

Well Thousand Sons got their models during seventh, at least that's when I got mine. So eighth has really been Primaris, Deathguard, and Nurgle in seven months. That seems to be a normal release schedule right down to the two starter armies getting new models, they're just keeping their promise to get a lot of new codex out quickly. So to suggest that their phasing things out is a bit dramatic.

[m0nolith]

What OP wrote has been running rampant in my mind for months now.
I tried, very much tried to like the Primaris range, but in the end it still feels like a slap to the face.
I'm waiting hoping that time heals all things, but whats weird is that for whatever reason, I'm just not getting over this.
 
I'm a person that very much likes change, but change in of itself isn't good when that change lacks quality.
 

I just ignore them completely. They hold zero interest to me as both a hobbyist and a Chaos player.
 
BCC

Wait till you get Chaos Primaris. 

Its coming.

[Lay]

I suggest playing a "historical" 40k army. You know, something that's tied to a piece of fluff you like. It doesn't even have to be the Horus Heresy, but maybe the Badab War or the Armageddon Wars. It's unlikely that GW is going back and retconning older events that don't feature their fancy nu-Marines anyway.

I, myself, decided to theme my armies after the Siege of Vraks before 8th edition hit. By the time they brought back Guilliman and introduced the Primaris I was already indifferent towards any timeline progression.

[gideon stargreave]

Remember GW quite clearly states they are a model company first. Primaris are a godsend for Artscale modellers. Ignore the fluff, (which is dog turd as you pointed out) 

[Marshal Loss]

Don't blame you at all. My thoughts:

1. For starters, the lore is atrocious. The problems connected with bringing back Primarchs en masse aside, having some random Mechanicum horse-man hide for 10,000 years building better Space Marines who are the closest descendants of their Primarchs with Cawl-pattern super guns and Cawl-pattern super armour is jarring and completely ruins the theme of technological regression. Their solution has been to say 'oh but things are super bad now, we have this big rift and all the baddies are coming,' but it doesn't feel genuine when the Imperium is pumping out the 'best soldiers ever.' Poor storytelling.
2. It completely severs a visual connection with the past. One of the things I've always loved about Space Marines in 40k is that they use relics as weapons. Looking at a Space Marine draws upon decades of visual history - each set of armour has a piece of background and a connection to the timeline, with the possibility to mix them all. This no longer works. Primaris marines wear Mark X. Gone are the sets of Mark II/III/IV/V/VI/VII/VIII and their connected history, and relics that have been around from the time of the Heresy. You can't have a Captain in a suit of armour that has been passed down for generations anymore unless he is of an 'inferior breed'. On a similar note, making the Primaris unable to use the Space Marines' most famous vehicles, Land Raiders, Rhino, Predator etc, is another step away from their history and what made Space Marines famous.

Combine that with the lack of customisation, even on leaders (a Space Marine Captain/Chapter Master that comes with a grand total of one weapon?!?) and it has completely put me off loyalist marines and the overarching plot.I would have preferred they gradually did scale creep (like the Thousand Sons/Deathwatch compared to the old kits) to make better proportions so they could keep incorporating old lore, having Primaris being a 'new armour' rather than just 'super marines,' but lots of people like the kits so I'm not going to begrudge their happiness.

 

I'm sticking around because, as a Chaos player, I get tons of new goodies and they haven't done anything catastrophically stupid with my characters/factions, like killing Abaddon or turning him into a prince or something, but I'm not optimistic that I'll ever be interested in 40k's story again, as told by the studio. The good news is that there are some fantastic authors out there who either largely ignore the new story and stick to the Chambers era version of 40k, or are talented enough to make parts of it work.

 

Best of luck with your hobby in the future, whether it involves 40k or not. At least there are decades of interesting material to draw upon. I'd also point out, if you have the funds to spare, that the Horus Heresy is still a thing, and Forge World have so far done a good job of insulating it from ridiculous changes. It is still as absurdly grimdark as old-40k was.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I, too, hate the Primaris. Nice models (for the most part) but lorewise, they are an abomination.

 

I can't help but feel that GW has painted themselves into a corner. I mean, there is absolutely no reason why "normal" Marines would need to be created from now on. So does that mean that all of the old pieces of armour and vehicles in the Imperium's inventory are going to get mothballed? What about Tactical, Devastator and Assault Squads? WIll we see the Primaris equivalent of these units in the future?

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

1. For starters, the lore is atrocious. The problems connected with bringing back Primarchs en masse aside, having some random Mechanicum horse-man hide for 10,000 years building better Space Marines who are the closest descendants of their Primarchs with Cawl-pattern super guns and Cawl-pattern super armour is jarring and completely ruins the theme of technological regression. Their solution has been to say 'oh but things are super bad now, we have this big rift and all the baddies are coming,' but it doesn't feel genuine when the Imperium is pumping out the 'best soldiers ever.' Poor storytelling.

While I certainly don't dispute a lot of what's been said here about the Primaris, I have to point out something about the 'technological regression'. That was more of a later addition to 40k, that really seemed to kick in with 5th edition or so, and then FW's 'everything was shinier in 30k' era, rather than the classic 90s 'Chamber's Era'. Priestly, and Chambers especially, gave us an Imperium where progress was stunted and glacial, yes, but not stagnant, and quite often still going forwards, compared to what we get now. Once, the Legion armouries were actually more 'primitve' than the m41 era Chapters. Power swords used to be incredibly rare, assault cannons and storm shields were post Heresy innovations rather than 'just coming into service when Horus kicked off', man portable Plasma Cannons and Multi Meltas weren't a thing. Imperial ship designs changed and improved, moving away from the BFG 'Chaos' fleet to the 'Imperial' fleet (with the cool, halfway Vengeance Class Grand Cruiser that could be taken by both fleets). Yes, things were lost, like the Vanquisher Cannon with Tigrus, but were also rediscovered/re-engineered, as Gryphonne and Stygies both developed their own versions of the Vanquisher. Plus, new things were still innovated (like Gryphonne developing the Leman Russ Conqueror).

 

So for me, the idea that the Imperium has produced some better tech isn't the setting breaking Heresy some take it as, because that was always there in the 40k I grew up with. What's changed is the quality of the storytelling, and the volume of the changes. MkX armour, better bolt rifles, more grav vehicles, even upgraded Astartes themselves all could have been introduced in a less jarring way. Have it happen over timer, both in setting and irl. Have more than one sodding Magos coming up with everything.

 

8th is a weird beast for me. I've said before it's like a Rorschach test, with some seeing it as some Noblebright betrayal, others as a doubling down on the Grimdark/Grimderp, others still as really not changing the setting that much, second verse, same as the first. And I think we're all right, at least to a point.

 

I'll swing in one quick point in 'favour' of the Primaris. I've come to view something akin to them as inevitable. GW had just piled too much 'oh no, Imperium screwed' as the took the plot forward into m42, every first founding Chapter seemingly besieged and battered, Cadia gone, resurgent evil xenos on all frontiers etc. The Imperium needed something in their corner to restore at least some level of status quo for 8th. Do I wish they'd done it better? Hell yeah (or just not bothered moving forward, End Times Fantasy having given me a new found appreciation of classic 40k 999.m41 stasis). But I can still see the shape of what I think they were aiming for, they just didn't manage to satisfactorily pull it off.

[Magos Takatus]

I'm still undecided about the Primaris marine situation. I like the armour design since it leans heavily on mk4 and mk8 armour which were my favourite armour types anyway. I like most of the Primaris models but I think the lore seems too forced in places. I like that we finally have Adeptus Mechanicus models on the tabletop and that in Belisarius Cawl there is a character that pushes that faction into the spotlight but I do think the background I've read suggests he is personally responsible for the new Primaris founding and equipment rather than him likely having a large team of underlings working for him. It reads as if this one Tech Priest single-handedly sourced all of the geneseed and build all the machinery to make the Ultima Founding possible.

 

I would have preferred it if the Primaris were more compatible with Space Marine vehicles but I'd rather some new ideas for Primaris marines than models like the Centurions that look incapable of walking or the Chibi Thuderhawk with a Dreadnought dangling from a tow cable. Sadly it is a lot easier for me to ignore Centurions than for other people to ignore what may become the status quo for marine armies.

[Noserenda]

Oh noes, prettier Marine models! Better flee!

Stick your stuff in a box in the loft and chill, hobby keen often goes in tides. 5 years from now you may see a White dwarf or a friend may mention 40k and youll probably be suckered right back in :) 

The Sky is never actually falling ;) 

[m0nolith]

Oh noes, prettier Marine models! Better flee!

 

Stick your stuff in a box in the loft and chill, hobby keen often goes in tides. 5 years from now you may see a White dwarf or a friend may mention 40k and youll probably be suckered right back in  

 

The Sky is never actually falling

No, the sky may not be falling, but it is raining poop.