Your thoughts on the Primaris and lore progression

[Huggtand]

But what's going to happen when his brothers start turning up? Is he going to expect them to simply fall in line and follow his orders?

 

Because that won't fly with Lion, Khan, Russ, or Corax. They might be okay with him bring nominally in charge, but not with him ordering their sons around. I mean, Corax had to be restrained from coming to blows with Horus over orders he didn't like. Lion has never let anyone boss his Legion around. Neither has Russ. And Khan wouldn't stand for it either.

 

Vulkan and Dorn (If he comes back) would be more amenable to Guilliman being the boss, but that's still half the loyal Primarchs that would resent someone they consider an equal at best telling them what to do.

 

 

That is what I feel is one of the more interesting part in the upcoming setting. There is a lot of good stories they can make of what happens when the loyalist Primarchs turns up again.

[Panzer]

 

 

Also, has no one else noticed that with most chapters following Guilliman's orders, it effectively gives him control over 3 or 4 Legions worth of Space Marines?

 

Since that was the very thing he wrote the Codex to prevent, that makes him a hypocrite of the highest order.

 

"No one shall ever again control the might of an Astartes Legion."*

 

 

*Except for me.

To be fair it was a way different time when he wrote the Codex than it is now and he now is leading the whole IoM so he's also in a way different position than he used to be when he wrote the Codex.

But what's going to happen when his brothers start turning up? Is he going to expect them to simply fall in line and follow his orders?

 

Because that won't fly with Lion, Khan, Russ, or Corax. They might be okay with him bring nominally in charge, but not with him ordering their sons around. I mean, Corax had to be restrained from coming to blows with Horus over orders he didn't like. Lion has never let anyone boss his Legion around. Neither has Russ. And Khan wouldn't stand for it either.

 

Vulkan and Dorn (If he comes back) would be more amenable to Guilliman being the boss, but that's still half the loyal Primarchs that would resent someone they consider an equal at best telling them what to do.

 

Well that will be an interesting situation for sure. Obviously impossible to answer for now. I'm looking forward to it tho. ;)

[Panzer]

 

To be honest, I'm not overly excited about Primaris. I like them. Their look and their feel on the table is what I always wanted for Space Marines. I also don't mind how they got introduced in the fluff. Could it have been better? Maybe. Was it the worst thing ever? Not at all.

However the Primaris line still feels VERY unpolished and also very unsupported with most Stratagems focussing on units and weapons Primaris don't have access to. I'm looking forward to the future here and am happily waiting for more chapter specific Primaris unit and Codexes that support them better.

 

Tho I have to say I disagree about it being great that they got rid of the whole technological regression thing.

For one, they didn't really get rid of it since most of the AdMech are still opposing Cawl and only accept him due him being a big number now. Everything he did was only for the Primaris project and reviving Guilliman (which he only could pull off with the new Eldar god of death even). Nobody else in the Imperium got new toys nor is there any indication that Guardsmen will suddenly get something more advanced than the good old Lasrifles etc.

And then I also agree with Lord Marshal that the technological regression aspect is one of the big things people like about the 40k IoM. Without it 40k would lose a lot of its charme.

 

About the "GW is focussing on Imperium AGAIN" thing....eh, whatever. It's the "Chaos coming back with full force and the IoM has to do something to survive" storyline now. Of course most things will be for Imperium or Chaos for now. I'm not that impatient. Xenos stuff will come eventually and it will be just as awesome. Tons of potential there.

Most admech fully support cawl and actively work to get his favour, says so right in the codex.

 

They do now? I apologize, I didn't read the AdMech Codex yet but it sounded a bit different back when the whole Gathering Storm thing happened.

[Blindhamster]

Primaris got me actively painting again for the firs5 time in years. I've also played more games since starting them than I had in years although that is as much because I just like the improvements that make up 8th ed.

[Guest]

Also, has no one else noticed that with most chapters following Guilliman's orders, it effectively gives him control over 3 or 4 Legions worth of Space Marines?

Since that was the very thing he wrote the Codex to prevent, that makes him a hypocrite of the highest order.

"No one shall ever again control the might of an Astartes Legion."*

*Except for me.

In Dark Imperium RG has thoughts that his Codex may have been a mistake and intends to rewrite it after he done with a book about how to rule.

[Red_Shift]

To be fair, Guilliman being a hypocrite is hardly new.

 

I agree with a lot of what has been said here, the marine line needed a revamp, it was in a bit of a cul-de-sac and there is now ample reasons for new models. My top three wishlist - a proper battle tank, tactical dreadnought armour and new scouts.

[Claws and Effect]

To be fair, Guilliman being a hypocrite is hardly new.

 

I agree with a lot of what has been said here, the marine line needed a revamp, it was in a bit of a cul-de-sac and there is now ample reasons for new models. My top three wishlist - a proper battle tank, tactical dreadnought armour and new scouts.

The Scout kits are definitely showing their age. I would put all the options into one box so you can mix sniper rifles, bolters, and shotguns into a unit without having to buy multiple boxes.

[Robbienw]

That reminds me of another reason why I dislike the Primaris line - it stopped the new version releases of the older marine kits that was going on.

 

I was really enjoying the newer versions of old infantry kits that have been coming out over the past few years, the tactical squad, the new devastator and assault squads etc.

 

I was really hoping that the next things coming were new scouts, bikes and regular terminators. 

 

The Scouts aren't too bad, but they really need better heads and the normal scout and sniper kits have some mold line issues.

 

The base plastic bike is so old. I'm certain they must have had new bikes ready to go, they would have been easy to produce using the 3d files of the ravenwing bikers from dark vengeance and the ravenwing command squad kit, with the iconography removed, and some plain normal marine bits put it. 

 

Same with the basic terminators, i'm sure they could have used work already done on the Deathwing and BA terminator kits to produce an improved set.  The more recent terminator kits are so much nicer than the regular terminator kit, it needed a redo to the same standard.

 

Would have like a plastic techmarine and thunderfire cannon as well.

 

But no, instead they decided it was time for some bigger marines with stretched bolters and plasma guns, and the 3 comedy units

[Ishagu]

I see a lot of people saying Cawl couldn't have done this by himself. He isn't just some techpriest. He is a Dominatus Dominus - a master of masters. He commands large parts of Mars, he has thousands if not millions of serfs, assistants and tech-priests under his command. He'll have whatever resources he requires to develop any technologies. Let's stop twisting the facts to make it seem less believable.

[Lord Marshal]

 

Read the whole thread and this is one thing I see in many of this kind of posts lately, stated as a fact.

 

 

The 40k setting was never about progress, innovation, hope and was made clear just about everywhere, including the first few pages of the rulebooks. Cheering for that going away is like clamouring for Star Wars to lose the Light and the Dark Side, or wishing Lord of the Rings was about a bunch of morally ambiguous arseholes going on a selfish quest to claim Sauron's power for themselves.

 

The first 40k RT was not especially grimdark, more a combination of dystopian bureaucracy, cyberpunk, metal, satire and wackiness  The real grimdark came with the second and third edition where they took away more and more of the humor, and what I think made the 40k fun to play in, and replaced that with more and more doom, gloom and more doom for mankind. In the RT-era there was always the hopeful future where mankind is evolved and strong enough to withstand the dangers they face.

 

So to turn the quote around with tongue in cheek, I can say that the “new” lore have ruined my “real” old lore with a bunch of grimdark no hope rubbish 

 

 

Right, the "dude rogue trader wasnt serious bro" fallacy that always gets swung around like a bad rash.

 

I don't see how that defuses my point. Rogue Trader was still absurdly dark, Grimdark even. Hell, that reinforces the point even more. It was absurdly over the top to the point it was humerous, so surely flooding the setting with THERE IS PROGRESS AND HOPE, GIRLYMAN WILL SAVE US is still going away from Rogue Trader's direction anyway, far more so than playing the Grimdark with a straight face. Primaris Marines springing from nowhere to save the Imperium, alongside the Golden Marines, headed by Jesus Christ Superstar Roberto de Gulies is hardly fitting either.

 

'But Lord Marshal, 40k is still dark!' Yeah, sure, but the core narrative (Imperium fights back, suddenly besist marines ever) isn't. 

[Kinstryfe]

This entire thread just seems like willful bait that should be locked down

To be honest, there should just be a forum wide ban on Primaris threads like this in general, and get people to stop going into every thread even tangentially related to Primaris or new fluff and posting the same unfounded speculation about the future of 40k over and over. This is a subject where people just argue back and forth over either Primaris are the worst thing in 40k since they killed the Squats or Primaris being kind of nifty.

 

Now so this post is relevant to something in the thread, I don't think as many Primarchs would have an issue with what Guilliman has done. If Dorn had returned, I see him having acted very broadly similarly. I also don't think that a few of them, like Russ or the Khan, have any interest in ruling the Imperium. Nor do I think that they would be antagonistic to Guilliman, or he overly controlling of them. Dorn or The Lion I could see wanting to rule, but I also don't think Guilliman would be opposed to giving them their due, and I think either would be happy to be the new Lord Solar while Guilliman can focus on other duties with less focus on military action. Corax I envision being humbled but happy that his plans for Marines has effectively come true, and while I don't think he would be necessary thrilled I also don't see him rampaging against Guilliman. Likewise will Vulkan. Of all the canon rivalries between Primarchs, there were very few between the loyalists, and they have been largely written as coexisting with indifference at worst, or admiration at best. The only two scenarios I can see being possible while meshing with established canon would be The Lion going crazy about wanting to be Emperor, or if Guilliman refuses to allow a Primarch to reunite with their chapter, which I honestly can't fathom why it would happen. I think a lot of people just don't like Guilliman and want some other Primarch to smack him down, but it doesn't seem particularly likely that any Primarch still loyal to the Imperium would return, see their only returned brother trying to run everything solo, and not want to help achieve those same goals.

 

Except the Lion maybe. He's a bit of a wildcard.

[Ishagu]

Marshall,

 

The core narrative is whatever you want it to be. Guilliman has pushed Chaos back on numerous worlds. Thousands more remain in ruin, besieged on all sides by xenos and heretical powers

You chose whether to follow Guilliman's exploits or not. The Indomnitus Crusade is over, it merely brought some stability to half of the Imperium.

[DuskRaider]

I see a lot of people saying Cawl couldn't have done this by himself. He isn't just some techpriest. He is a Dominatus Dominus - a master of masters. He commands large parts of Mars, he has thousands if not millions of serfs, assistants and tech-priests under his command. He'll have whatever resources he requires to develop any technologies. Let's stop twisting the facts to make it seem less believable.

 

He's also been in hiding for 10,000 or so years and would have seemingly died off to the Imperium (and especially Mechanicum) at large. He then shows up not only with non-sanctioned technology but has also been dabbling with Astartes geneseed which, as you should remember, is heresy of the highest order. It doesn't matter if he was given the thumbs up in secret by what was a now-dead Primarch when he first reappeared... the timing of his re-appearance and his age would make him highly suspect, and even when Guilliman IS revived there would still be a major schism in the Mechanicum (among other entities) of this guy upending everything with forbidden technology and claiming he has the run of the place. Not to mention somehow he's able to push all of this new technology out to thousands of Forge Worlds that have varying degree of contact and even alliegance to Mars and to do it flawlessly AND to be able to perfect things that have baffled others for 10,000 years is such a deus ex machina that it hurts my teeth. Be real, man... stop defending bad lore. You can defend the models all day, they're great. Nothing changes the fluff being garbage.

[Ishagu]

Perhaps not. Cawl might have so much power that a schism is too costly to the mechanicus, or the fabricator geveral has no desire for one.

 

Cawl appears to suddenly? Not at all.

Can you name the Fabricator General of Mars? How about his second in command?

How about all the high Lords?

He's merely involved in events that influence the plot, he doesn't need a build up of years to do so. I'm very happy with Cawl as it gives the Machanicus an interesting character to develop stories around instead of it being a faceless organisation.

 

The Primaris project was secret anyway, so there's a good reason it's not been mentioned before :-P

You are chosing to see the plot as flawed, you are assuming what the Mechanicus' tolerance to Cawl should be. Clearly you're assuming wrongly.

[Claws and Effect]

Now so this post is relevant to something in the thread, I don't think as many Primarchs would have an issue with what Guilliman has done. If Dorn had returned, I see him having acted very broadly similarly. I also don't think that a few of them, like Russ or the Khan, have any interest in ruling the Imperium. Nor do I think that they would be antagonistic to Guilliman, or he overly controlling of them. Dorn or The Lion I could see wanting to rule, but I also don't think Guilliman would be opposed to giving them their due, and I think either would be happy to be the new Lord Solar while Guilliman can focus on other duties with less focus on military action. Corax I envision being humbled but happy that his plans for Marines has effectively come true, and while I don't think he would be necessary thrilled I also don't see him rampaging against Guilliman. Likewise will Vulkan. Of all the canon rivalries between Primarchs, there were very few between the loyalists, and they have been largely written as coexisting with indifference at worst, or admiration at best. The only two scenarios I can see being possible while meshing with established canon would be The Lion going crazy about wanting to be Emperor, or if Guilliman refuses to allow a Primarch to reunite with their chapter, which I honestly can't fathom why it would happen. I think a lot of people just don't like Guilliman and want some other Primarch to smack him down, but it doesn't seem particularly likely that any Primarch still loyal to the Imperium would return, see their only returned brother trying to run everything solo, and not want to help achieve those same goals.

 

Except the Lion maybe. He's a bit of a wildcard.

Corax would have an issue with a large chunk of the Imperium basically becoming the very sort of society he fought against in his formative years.

 

I don't see him going outright rebel over it, but I can see him insisting that they work toward changing things if Guilliman wants his support.

 

Lion will take command of his Legion and do pretty much whatever he wants. He'll take suggestions from Guilliman, but reject the idea of him as a commanding officer. He only accepted Horus as Warmaster because the Emperor appointed him as such in person.

 

Russ is actually a bit of a wild card too. Utterly loyal to the Emperor, but loyalty to Guilliman? Questionable.

 

I honestly don't know enough about Khan to make an educated guess about his reactions.

 

I'm pretty sure they would all be wary of the Primaris, with the possible exception of Corax (If he sees them as the evolution of what he was doing himself). Alternately, I could see Corax being utterly against them if he concluded that screwing around trying to improve on Astartes was a bad idea.

[DuskRaider]

Perhaps not. Cawl might have so much power that a schism is too costly to the mechanicus, or the fabricator geveral has no desire for one.

 

Cawl appears to suddenly? Not at all.

Can you name the Fabricator General of Mars? How about his second in command?

How about all the high Lords?

He's merely involved in events that influence the plot, he doesn't need a build up of years to do so. I'm very happy with Cawl as it gives the Machanicus an interesting character to develop stories around instead of it being a faceless organisation.

 

But he did appear suddenly at the destruction of Cadia. He was in hiding supposedly building all this wonderful new technology with... say, how was he able to do all that in the first place?

 

The current Fabricator General has not been named as far as I know, but how does that diminish the title or that of the High Lords of Terra? Their rank and power is all that needs to be known.

 

No one said he needs years of build up, but to have him burst on the scene with "HEY LOOK AT ALL THIS NEW ISH THAT I'VE BEEN WORKING ON FOR TEN MILLENNIA AND HEY LET ME RESURRECT A PRIMARCH WITH THE HELP OF THESE SUDDENLY NEW XENOS" is a bit ridiculous. I love that Ad Mech got a character, I think the model is absolutely wonderful and he adds much to an army that could easily slip into Necron (or Tyranid) levels of anonymity, but the way he's been handled, along with Guilliman's return and the Primaris and this and that has just been extremely hamfisted. 

 

Edit: I should say the TRUE Fabricator General is still Kelbor-Hal, who as far as I know is still wandering the Warp somewhere with the true Mechanicum.

[Huggtand]

 

 

Read the whole thread and this is one thing I see in many of this kind of posts lately, stated as a fact.

 

 

The 40k setting was never about progress, innovation, hope and was made clear just about everywhere, including the first few pages of the rulebooks. Cheering for that going away is like clamouring for Star Wars to lose the Light and the Dark Side, or wishing Lord of the Rings was about a bunch of morally ambiguous arseholes going on a selfish quest to claim Sauron's power for themselves.

 

The first 40k RT was not especially grimdark, more a combination of dystopian bureaucracy, cyberpunk, metal, satire and wackiness  The real grimdark came with the second and third edition where they took away more and more of the humor, and what I think made the 40k fun to play in, and replaced that with more and more doom, gloom and more doom for mankind. In the RT-era there was always the hopeful future where mankind is evolved and strong enough to withstand the dangers they face.

 

So to turn the quote around with tongue in cheek, I can say that the “new” lore have ruined my “real” old lore with a bunch of grimdark no hope rubbish 

 

 

Right, the "dude rogue trader wasnt serious bro" fallacy that always gets swung around like a bad rash.

 

I don't see how that defuses my point. Rogue Trader was still absurdly dark, Grimdark even. Hell, that reinforces the point even more. It was absurdly over the top to the point it was humerous, so surely flooding the setting with THERE IS PROGRESS AND HOPE, GIRLYMAN WILL SAVE US is still going away from Rogue Trader's direction anyway, far more so than playing the Grimdark with a straight face. Primaris Marines springing from nowhere to save the Imperium, alongside the Golden Marines, headed by Jesus Christ Superstar Roberto de Gulies is hardly fitting either.

 

'But Lord Marshal, 40k is still dark!' Yeah, sure, but the core narrative (Imperium fights back, suddenly besist marines ever) isn't. 

 

 

Please don´t put words in my mouth. Can you point where I say that RT is not serious?

 

I say that RT was somewhat grim dark, dystopian bureaucracy, cyberpunk, metal, satire and wackiness (yes, there was wackiness). Is grim and dark dystopian metal cyberpunk bureaucracy not serious?

 

The fallacy is saying that the original setting of 40k was a grimdark future with no hope of survival for mankind what so ever. The no hope for humanity is a later addition.

[Charlo]

A risky thread, but made sense in context of the other one I suppose...

 

I'd like to ask all of you who dislike the recent fluff developments (Cawl appearing, Guillimans crusade etc):

 

Why is the old lore so sacred that any sort of new lore is instantly unappealing to you?

 

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm genuinely interested!

 

When I heard that there was a new Tech Priest that had been toiling away on new marines for 10k years ready for re-emergence I was like "Damn... That's cool!"

 

Sure it's out of left field, but what isn't in 40k? Did people have this reaction to the Tau suddenly popping up?

[Marshal Reinhard]

Of all GW model lines, the most bloated and oversatuarated line is by far the space marine one and is consequently quite a monster to maintain. It makes all the business sense in the world to try and streamline it, save for perhaps, people's attachment to what we already have. In a certain sense I really do appreciate what is being done with Primaris. Primaris vehicles are all some sort of grav variant, which differentiates them from the guard who will have all the tread vehicles. Marines were always described as mobile elite forces so it makes sense they'd have more focus on mobility and such. It just makes sense.

 

Primaris grunts also got a much needed aesthetic upgrade by having properly scaled marines that have pretty much left heroic scale behind. This is what space marines always should have looked like, and seeing Primaris like this, just makes me want to have similiarly scaled older mark armours, I don't particularly care for Mk X itself. In fact I want all my old marines to look like this, with all of my old marine gear. And that's not happening. The chainsword is just not getting any room at all with the Primaris. They won't have missile launchers or lascannons, closecombat equipped grunts, bikes or any classical setups. That's the other side to this streamlining. The primaris beast is a much streamlined much scaled down beast for better or worse. And it sort of makes sense to trim away a lot of the archaic stuff. It does make sense even though I've ended up on the wrong side of the streamlining.

 

Anyway I feel I turned out to rag more on the Primaris than I meant to, this isn't the thread for that. Ultimately, Primaris offer an excellent starting point for new armies, and that's pretty much what'll matter in the long run. I'll have to see if I ever take the plunge and get a few models, if I do, they'll will doubtlessly be part of new rather than my old army. They're the future of space marines, and really they don't do such a bad job of it either (no comment on fluff).

[Ishagu]

 

 

Perhaps not. Cawl might have so much power that a schism is too costly to the mechanicus, or the fabricator geveral has no desire for one.

 

Cawl appears to suddenly? Not at all.

Can you name the Fabricator General of Mars? How about his second in command?

How about all the high Lords?

He's merely involved in events that influence the plot, he doesn't need a build up of years to do so. I'm very happy with Cawl as it gives the Machanicus an interesting character to develop stories around instead of it being a faceless organisation.

But he did appear suddenly at the destruction of Cadia. He was in hiding supposedly building all this wonderful new technology with... say, how was he able to do all that in the first place?

 

The current Fabricator General has not been named as far as I know, but how does that diminish the title or that of the High Lords of Terra? Their rank and power is all that needs to be known.

 

No one said he needs years of build up, but to have him burst on the scene with "HEY LOOK AT ALL THIS NEW ISH THAT I'VE BEEN WORKING ON FOR TEN MILLENNIA AND HEY LET ME RESURRECT A PRIMARCH WITH THE HELP OF THESE SUDDENLY NEW XENOS" is a bit ridiculous. I love that Ad Mech got a character, I think the model is absolutely wonderful and he adds much to an army that could easily slip into Necron (or Tyranid) levels of anonymity, but the way he's been handled, along with Guilliman's return and the Primaris and this and that has just been extremely hamfisted.

 

Edit: I should say the TRUE Fabricator General is still Kelbor-Hal, who as far as I know is still wandering the Warp somewhere with the true Mechanicum.

My point is that as we can't even name the Fabrication General, it shouldn't be an issue that some powerful Master of Masters wasn't known to us until recently.

The lore focuses on characters when and if required.

 

In the new lore GW is giving all factions a face.

[Brother Tyler]

Did people have this reaction to the Tau suddenly popping up?

Yes, the reactions to the introduction of the Tau were mixed, with some welcoming a new addition to the setting and others railing against it because it was "too mecha" in nature (paraphrasing). I can even recall some of the more doom-saying members prognosticating the end of the game setting as we knew it.

 

Ultimately, any change to the lore is going to meet with similarly mixed reactions. The more dramatic the change, the more extreme the reactions are going to be. Retcons (e.g., the retcons to the Black Templars lore, as currently being discussed in the Black Templars forum) tend to be more controversial than "simple" advancements (i.e., the Gathering Storm/Dark Imperium/Primaris trifecta that we're discussing here). WH40K nerds, as with any other pop culture nerd cult, can be very territorial. We have a wide variety of reactions within our cult of nerd-dom, as varied as the individuals that make up the cult, and the Internet gives us a perfect venue to tell everyone how we feel. It just gets messy when people let their emotions drive their online posting. To paraphrase someone important, passion [for the hobby] is good, but emotion is not.

 

In the end, we all have to find a way to cope with the changes, whether that is by welcoming them with open arms, or ignoring the bits we don't like, or reverting to an historical period in the setting where the changes don't apply, or even quitting the hobby altogether.

 

What we should really be asking ourselves is how we can continue to enjoy the hobby with the changes to the lore, and how our participation in this discussion (and many others that are like it) helps both us and others to enjoy the hobby. Sometimes we need to vent and whinge, and that's okay when we get it off our chest and then suck it up and move forward. When discussions bog down in non-constructive complaining or circular discussion that goes nowhere, becoming noise rather than being constructive, that's when the mods step in and close things down.

 

Let's keep this constructive and respectful, even ... no, especially ... when we have differing views on the subject.

[Charlo]

Thanks Tyler, I was literally just getting into the hobby as the Tau came out (I used fire warriors in my first demo game against Space Wolves!) and was about 11  !

[Marshal Loss]

Why is the old lore so sacred that any sort of new lore is instantly unappealing to you?

 

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm genuinely interested!

 

Are you seriously telling me that you have not seen any of the many posts detailing why people don't like the implementation of the new lore?

 

'Instantly unappealing'? Come on. This is the kind of patronising rubbish that makes threads like these degenerate so quickly.

[Kelborn]

I do not play the game.

 

Thus, bare with my question.

 

Is it necessary to make use of Primaris, etc. if you want to play?

 

If not, no one is forced to be part of the new setting and changes. We got about 10K+ years to play with, right?

 

Example:

 

If one dislikes the Primaris, one can say that his army is from an earlier era in which the old setting is still running.

I honestly do not see the point of such topics. Some like the changes of the 8th edition, some don't. Some struggle with the way they implemented said changes, some are enjoying it.

 

There is (most likely) never a consensus for all. Shouldn't we all just agree to disagree and leave everyone / everything as it is?

[DuskRaider]

 

My point is that as we can't even name the Fabrication General, it shouldn't be an issue that some powerful Master of Masters wasn't known to us until recently.

The lore focuses on characters when and if required.

 

In the new lore GW is giving all factions a face.

 

 

So then why have a Fabricator General at all? Or the High Lords of Terra? I mean, since they're not named characters they don't actually matter. That the Minotaurs were created and controlled by the High Lords has no basis at all and means nothing since we don't know the birthdate of the Lord Commander Militant. That the Fabricator General (who, may I remind you, IS a High Lord) can order the destruction of an entire Forge World with the wave of a hand, hasn't revealed his favorite color means he is pretty meaningless. Everyone needs to have a name and presumably have killed three Avatars of Khaine and the Swamlord twice to be of any importance to the lore these days.