Your thoughts on the Primaris and lore progression

[Mileposter]

"I don't like that they did this." - This is a valid opinion. I totally appreciate those that dislike the direction of the newer fluff. I'm not even a fluff guy, I don't read the books and immerse myself in the details of the background... And even I had a bit of a double take with the narrative speed of the Primaris' arrival. It's the sort of plot twist you play Chekov's Gun with, not an Introduction Reveal.

But, on the other end of things, the lore is based on the game not the other way around. They built a game and then put a story to it (or didn't, sometimes). There's always been an amount of sacrifice in fluff quality needed to maintain a coherent game system (See most tabletop games). So the fact that there is something jarring doesn't phase me. What it is certainly threw me for a loop.

And what bugs me more about it is that I'm starting to really like the things! Primaris models look good, sit well, and I can do all sorts of nifty tech to them. Even considered playing them as an army before I adopted Imperial Guard.

But for all that we as consumers may or may not like their decision/method, to claim it is right or wrong is to impose authority we don't have. It's a toxic mentality to have about your hobby (on either side of the spectrum!) and can quickly contaminate your desire to participate. Nip it in the bud.
 
 

 

John Blanche is an important part of GW, as is Jes Goodwin, and all the old timers who have been around since we were picking up White Dwarf's in the early 90s blah blah blah. Here's the reality: These people are still employed by a company that needs to make money. Without cash flow and profit, it physically can't develop the universe that you love to hate.

I think it's notable that while some are willing to defend or make apologetics for GW's decisions from a financial or logistical point of view, no one's even bothering to mount a qualitative defense of the Primaris Marines and the Dark Imperium setting.
 
What more needs to be said about it?

 

 
Because we don't have to? The success speaks for itself. Regardless of our personal opinions, it's worth noting that it clearly was a successful move - we can infer from the large sales numbers of the Primaris that they are more liked than disliked. Perhaps that's because of the models despite the fluff, perhaps that's just for conversion purposes, whatever. I mean, we could argue that the reason for them being here (fluff-wise, model-wise, business-wise) don't matter... because they're here either way. And they got bought.
 
More people are buying. More people are playing. Maybe it's just the ruleset. Maybe it's the setting. Maybe it's just compulsive. There's no way to know. But there's more than there was, so... Success was had.
 
For myself, I'm the pragmatic sort. It's not a question of whether I like a thing or don't like a thing, It's whether or not it can be used and survive. I have opinions, sure - as a consumer I have that luxury. Any change will garner some players/painters/hobbyists, and lose others. I support the OP and those that share their sentiment in disliking things, but when faced with results I cannot indulge the clamor of "bad" and "wrong".

[m0nolith]

The major uproar isn't due to a simple invalidation of standing of the "Space Marine" in terms of what they are in the universe and the introduction of a major new factor, but its because of the extremely poor quality in storytelling involved in the introduction of this factor and worry whether or not this poor quality will continue on into the future. I'm not against Pimaris per se, im against the lore behind them.

 

Contrary to the opinion of some, 40k has actually had a fantastically well developed story line in the past, so well developed in fact that there's even a YouTube channel that popped up dedicated to theories of what might happened and what may be true within the lore, aptly called "40k Theories" (great channel, I highly recommence you check it out). Poorly thought out universe don't have this level of nuance to warrant a channel like that. The slow death of this type of quality is what makes some of us want to discuss it.

 

Some people are more into the lore and exploring that universe via their models, others are more into the aesthetics of the models themselves, but what I find interesting is that some people don't seem understand that the reason why they're into 40k may not be the same reason why others are, and insist on making this an argument about only the models themselves and not the background behind them. If lore isn't your thing, cool, but it is for others and you need to understand that.
 

Another straw man argument that keeps popping up is "GW needs to make money, either they put out the Primaris range like they did or they dont make money". 

Literally nobody is arguing against GW isn't here to maximize profits, but who would make the argument that GW would make less money if some care was used and released their product with a better background for it?

 

I started this game during 2nd ed and have always had an interest in it due to many attributes it had that appealed to me. I see now that those attributes have been replaced by other attributes. I'm all for change, but only if that change is not of an inferior quality to what came before it.

 

What annoys me is that some people simply dismiss this argument by arguing that its all due to nostalgia. Well, no, its not, and the Heresy is my argument. Those same feelings I used to have about 40k, those feelings which some attribute to nostalgia, I feel now in the present about Heresy. The quality is still there when it comes to lore, better in many regards to due to fantastic authors. This isn't nostalgia I miss about 40k, its quality that I miss, and its very fair for me to lament that loss without people questioning whether or not that quality ever existed.

 

Also, time and time again I see some people basically saying "Tough, this is whats happening, get over it, now shut it".

It's a forum. We discuss things like this on forums.

Don't like the fact were discussing it? Tough, this is whats happening, get over it, but contrary to you, I still want to hear what your opinion is.

[Mileposter]

I wanted to give a bit of a huzzah to your post, @m0nolith, than a simple 'like' can convey. Had me re-examining my own post. Not going to edit it, as I feel that would be tarnishing your exact point, but I will likely revisit those points later in a hopefully less-closed fashion.

[Sete]

Hey I want to like Primaris.

As a BT player I loathe them.

Intercessors? Yeah no chainswords, no power weapons, no neophytes. No character whatsoever...

 

Don't even have the option for it.

There are no Primaris Crusader Squads.

As a BT player, what's the point? One of the few things that give the chapter a bit of non Vannila flavour it's gone.(not gone but not available)

Primaris Emperor Champion? Nope

I basically quit BT. What's the point.

Until things change.

Maybe SW codex will change things a bit.

Give more options to a very limited range.

[FerociousBeast]

 

I wish you the best in revelling in 'better times', but the rest of us are going to move on. 

 

I think it's pretty clear from this thread that you don't speak for 100%, or even a clear majority, of "the rest of us." But you do speak for you, and I'm glad you feel the way you do. 40K will continue to entertain those who can still be entertained by it, and that's a good thing. I meant only to describe my own personal feelings on the matter, and since I've been a part of this community for a good long while now, wanted to express them to you guys.

 

In fact, there's a very good chance I would have dropped 40K a long time ago if I hadn't had the B&C Dark Angel forum bookmarked in my favorites, and if I hadn't kept clicking that link every once in a while to see what the frater were up to or what they thought about the latest codex drop. There's a very good chance I'll continue to do so despite being sick to death of what 40K's become.

 

I want to respond to a few other comments in this thread, but I'm stealing time from work, so will do so later.

[Sete]

Work will still be there tomorrow :D

[Mileposter]

Work will still be there tomorrow

So will 40k!

[Shinespider]

Primaris are alright. Young, incomplete, but basically alright.

 

I kinda don't want to say more? The range has existed for barely a year and I'm already totally exhausted by this conversation. The people who have decided to hate them aren't going to change their minds. 

[chamberlainskeksil]

I was out of 40k for pretty much a decade and the Primaris definitely contributed to my return.  Well, it was probably more that I was enjoying AoS and found the test games I played of 5th, 6th and 7th to be awful.  So when 8th edition had an AoS approach, I was definitely excited.  The Primaris were the final piece of the puzzle for me.  They struck me as how marines should always have been.

 

When i think about the background fiction around the gathering storm, the opening of the great rift, the century or so the timeline was advanced, how they are handling the integration of primaris into existing chapters and so on, I can't help but realise that there's so much going on, multiple competing interests, huge variety in the potential audience that universal appeal would have been impossible.

 

That said, I think the gathering storm through current codex fiction has been inconsistent.  I found the writing in the gathering storm books to be absolutely horrible, but thoroughly enjoyed the events as presented in The Emperor's Legion.  I thought Dark Imperium spent a bit too much time on obvious showcasing of new units.   But I really enjoyed the Crusade novella.

One thing I did notice though is that the Primaris marines in the fiction are just space marines.  They're talked about and described and used in scenes exactly like non-primaris space marines.  Crusade is a prime example of this.  It really is pretty indistinguishable from how marines are used as part of the fiction in the horus heresy novels or other 40k books.

 

I totally get people don't like the rushed hatchet job of both advancing the story line and introducing new super marines, but now that they are here, it turns out they don't actually do anything off in the novels and stories themselves.  Whether they are talking about a looming threat or bolters are barking as they fight in a ruined city, the stories are still the same thing as they always were.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think it was Schiltzaf earlier in the thread that said ‘the galaxy is still torn in half’ and that’s basically the problem with the new fluff. It’s not still anything. All of this is new. It’s a reboot. It’s not the same 40k, and it’s just not delivering. The Primaris and Gathering Storm background is the Tim Burton Planet of the Apes or the Matthew Broderick Godzilla. The BL team is kind of correcting the ship - Chris Wraight has done a lot and ADBs Emperor’s Spears novel will finally fix the studio fluff - but they also are having trouble staying consistent - Guy Haley is essentially dragging the team down like an anchor.

 

It shouldn’t fall on Black Library to have to fix anything, frankly. The studio should be putting out a better product. Stop writing the source books as novels. That’s a huge problem in an of itself. Gathering Storm was fan fiction quality, and I’m not talking about the narrative itself (though it was bad), I mean the structure and technical writing aspects of the trilogy were terrible. The dialogue was dry and unnatural. The Armageddon and Black Crusade and Cityfight sources books all had like 3000 words of lore and were well loved by most everyone.

 

And before people think this is a rose tinted rememberance, it’s common for universes to jump the shark. Everyone understands that. That being said, doubling down on shark jumping isn’t the best strategy. If something was more enjoyable previously, go back to doing that with the newly introduced lore. Just because a Mortarion and Magnus exist doesn’t mean they need to be everywhere those legions are. That reeks of sponsored content. It feels like there should be ‘buy now’ buttons in Guy haleys writing and that’s pathetic.

[deathspectersgt7]

To the OP I feel for ya. I am almost at that point myself Going to be 58 in a couple of weeks and been at this for a long time . So far the lore has been meh but there has been some jewels I am almost done with my 100+ Chapters project and after that I think it is time to move on . They want to kill off Successors left and right i that is where my heart is . Wish you well in what ever Endeavor you do.  Robbies books have kept me interested for now.

[DexC]

It feels like there should be ‘buy now’ buttons in Guy haleys writing and that’s pathetic.

Marshal, I don't think I've ever seen the ills of the nu40k narrative summed up so well in one sentence. Bravo.

[chamberlainskeksil]

I think it was Schiltzaf earlier in the thread that said ‘the galaxy is still torn in half’ and that’s basically the problem with the new fluff. It’s not still anything. All of this is new. It’s a reboot. It’s not the same 40k, and it’s just not delivering.[...]

 

It shouldn’t fall on Black Library to have to fix anything, frankly. [...]

 

And before people think this is a rose tinted rememberance, it’s common for universes to jump the shark. Everyone understands that. That being said, doubling down on shark jumping isn’t the best strategy. [...]

 

Well put.  Describing gathering storm as basically fanfic is spot on.  There is so much wrong with the fiction in those books that I started getting totally derailed in this post and had to delete it.

 

I think there's something to the notion that what they are doing is like a reboot of a movie franchise.  It's definitely a departure in some ways.  Though I suppose the degree to which a given person finds the departure to be will depend on what's important to them about the setting.

 

And I guess how much stock one puts in the gathering storm approach to 40k.  In my group of regular gaming people I'm the only one who read all the gathering storm books and a couple other people read like one of them each.  The simple presentation in the 8th edition 40k main rulebook and each codex seems to be enough for everyone else to have a more positive reaction.  And when a couple people did ask about them, I made sure to dissuade them from bothering.  

 

What I mean by that is that I actually think the setting is far more "40k" to those who don't keep the gathering storm and other recent 40k game book fiction from the late 7th ed period in mind when reading 8th ed stuff.

 

 

That reeks of sponsored content. It feels like there should be ‘buy now’ buttons in Guy haleys writing and that’s pathetic.

 

I completely agree.

[Bulwyf]

I ignore Primaris completely and they will never be a part of my Space Wolves army. There is no Chaos version of them but I don't see me using them either for Chaos if they come out for them. I use the same mindset with 40k that I do with other fandoms I am a part of: if a part of the canon doesn't appeal to me then I either ignore or pretend it does not exist. Age of Sigmar does not exist to me. Warhammer Fantasy Battles is still the Old World. Star Wars is still the extended universe. Star Trek does not have JJ Abrams in it.

 

You choose what you want to get out of something. Primaris are silly with a silly background and are done simply so GW can try to get people to abandon their old SM to get new shiny larger SM. You can still enjoy the rest of the hobby.

[Marshal Rohr]

That’s entirely fair. The 8th edition rulebook lore sections are just as good as any other edition. To be consistent in my position, I want to point out I acknowledge that. The codex lore sections are neither better nor worse than other edition. It’s the narrative choices (Primaris and Cawl being 10K years old) that I wouldn’t have gone with, but that’s not even that big of a hurdle to rectify with headcanon.

[chamberlainskeksil]

I like the idea of Cawl having plugged in some other, older tech-priest's memory augment hoping to learn ancient secrets and it damaged his identity and broke his mind.  And Guilliman should have been like "Yeah... I remember you.  Sure.  Let's go with that," and just used him.

 

There was also no reason at all to have the new eldar god be involved in the restoration of Guilliman.  At all.  Cawl would never have gone to Macragge to restore Guilliman if he didn't think he already had the problem solved.  He could not have known that such an eldar power would even exist, let alone be there to be an instrumental part of the process.  The armour he made was enough of a plot device without adding in that crap about Guilliman dying all the way and being brought back by the stupid eldar god death.

 

And why was the Primaris project 10,000 years in the making?  Why couldn't it just have been the latest tinkering of a mad tech priest who got control of some of the gene foundries?  And did Cawl even need to be involved with studying the pylons and the fall of Cadia? Couldn't that have been someone else? And Trazyn going all "Greyfax, I choose you!" with his pokeball.  golly gee?

 

Lol.  Just realized the more I think about the Gathering Storm, the lower opinion of the current narrative I get.

I can totally see how this all leads to a very negative take on the Primaris.  I think tossing all that :cuss overboard and just going with the 8th edition rulebooks, codexes and novels not by Guy Haley is a better way to enjoy the idea of Primaris marines.

[Soldier of Dorn]

Everyone has their line in the sand. For some, years ago now, it was Thunderwolf-mounted Space Wolves wielding Wolf Claws while they wolfed, Dreadknights, and Grey Knights carving names into the hearts of Daemon Primarchs. For many, not quite as long ago, it was the Centurions and Daemonic Dinobots. For some of us now -- myself included -- that line is drawn with the Primaris, Cawl, and the return of a Primarch.

 

The 40k universe has changed over the years. Even without any sort of "storyline advancement," it's very much experienced tonal shift in what the setting is, at least in my eyes. A D-B recently has mentioned on several occasions that a GW employee, upon seeing the more vehement reactionaries to the new fluff said that they "seem to be beholden to a version of 40k that never existed." And maybe that's true. But it was a common view of the setting that interpretation allowed for, that could be used as a common currency between fans. And it doesn't feel like it can be allowed for. It was something that was on its way out even when I fell in love with it.

 

For me, personally, the way things are now -- I don't enjoy 40k itself anymore. I don't enjoy the lore that's being introduced and the way it's treating established things. I don't find Cawl's seemingly infinite ability to create narratively appealing, nor do I find the fulfilled hope that the return of Guilliman and the rise of the Primaris introduces appealing either. I don't like setting advancement -- the static nature of 40k, a snapshot into the brink of annihilation and the tales of hope and defiance that springs out of that were part of what drew me to 40k.  Even asides from the fact I simply don't enjoy playing 8th edition, the universe is... different. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just not for me anymore.

 

I'm still sticking with 30k, at least for a while. It's still got a system I (relatively) enjoy playing, and it's still got lore I love, without even having to ever consider what I dislike about what 40k is now. But 40k itself... it's not for me anymore. And this thread, I think, shows that I'm not alone in this.

[Shockmaster]

Self editing in your head maybe is the saving grace for anything you find so awful that is spoils your hobby but obviously that is easier for people like me who rarely read BL novels(I find most of them poorly written compared to other fiction), I just read the codex background material and self edit in my head as a I go along, as the beauty of this setting is that there has never been a hard line canon.

 

So I don't mind the Primaris Marines as to me they are just the next stage of evolution of Marines, which is fine as it is not as if the traditional Space Marine is the first enhanced super soldier in the setting.

 

I love most of the new range(other then the Reivers) as they feel & look much more like I always imagined Marines would be so when I do finish my Death Guard I will likely start an elite army of pure Primaris.

[Schlitzaf]

“Snapshot into the brink of annihilation and the tales of hope and defiance that springs out of that were part of what drew me to 40k.”

 

That hasn’t changed, that is still the case Primaris or not, Gulliman or not, that is still the reality. Gulliman simply has temporarily halted the clock, just as the Emperor did in 30K. Gulliman (and return of other Primarchs) are simply mankind last hurrah. The last line. The not the first of the last line. But they are Sigismund standing in the front of the Gates of Terra. Theoden riding out from the last Fortress of Rohan that is Helms Deep.

 

They are the last of the last. The last hurrah before the end. They are what makes 40K, 40k. The light in the darknsss it need not be Gulliman. It could be anyone, any Marine. Any Gaurdsman. No man (or women) how great is just a man (or women). What defines them is that refuse to go gently. They stand firm against Armageddon and the ending of the war. Sam’s speech at end of Two Towers is why we care. Because our heroes could have just ‘Rage quit’. But they keep fighting no matter how hopeless, because they believe there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

That is 40K, no matter how hopeless, the characters are believe they can matter. And the tragic is that they don’t, and sometimes they themselves realize that. But despite that? They still try

[old git]

For a long time the vociferous few have been clamouring for an advancement in the time line. The Primaris project might be only a few months old in real world terms but their introduction to the Imperium has been going on for 200+ years. Maybe the lore hasn't been up to the quality we would like or expect but GW listened and advanced the 40k story.

[Sete]

They just need more chainswords ;)

They need the squatmarines or even the legions organization. If not flexibility, options.

Intercessors squad with chainswords instead of bolters.

Veteran Elite with Terminator armour.

I don't like this mix and match of squatmarines with Primaris.

 

Primaris should have been released with more army building options and with a more traditional look.

Reivers are passable, but the agressors? And that hood on the potato armour? My brain most of the time just ignored inceptors. I flinch in disgust every time I think about them.

Has always, this is my opinion ;)

I have disliked them more, and I'm willing to give GW the benefit of doubt.

[Shockmaster]

They just need more chainswords

 

I might have to start a Primaris army before I finish my Death Guard if they released a unit that has Gabriel Seth style chainswords. 

[Sete]

Now that would be cool.

[BitsHammer]

I'm going to be honest, while I haven't personally touched the Primaris Marines yet (though I feel some potential there for a Imperial Fists army of Primaris), I don't hate them. Actually I haven't hated anything GW has done with the setting so far.

 

Now before anyone gets torch and pitchfork happy, let me explain:

 

Since 2nd Edition dropped and 40k started to develop a more cohesive vision it's been fairly stagnant. Whole systems would be lost or gained and yet nothing every went anywhere. For some this was the way things should be, but this status quo also meant that we have thirty years of build up where nothing really matters. None of the losses, in the end mattered. The Black Crusades didn't matter, the near wipe out of the Blood Angels multiple times didn't matter, the loss of whole Chapters has never really mattered.

 

And that, in all honesty, is a bit of a problem. When the loss of a single Space Marine is supposed to have a serious impact against humanity, we see time and time again that the losses never really seem to push the Imperium back any further and they just as often come back to retake lost ground.

 

And then here comes the Gathering Storm. Suddenly the Black Crusades do matter, the Cadian gate is shown to be the very lynchpin it was supposed to be, the Crimson Path is important beyond a couple of bullet points here and there, according to Watchers of the Throne Abbadon almost gave Terra the Eye of Terror treatment (sealing its influence from the rest of the Imperium), the Blood Angels are nearly wiped out again in the Shield of Baal and can't just loot their successor chapters again, the Imperium itself it torn asunder and basically the things that didn't matter before actually do.

 

Frankly I love this. I love the fact that things have been far more active. I love the fact that we're seeing that Guilliman has been challenged with the fact that his Father who has been almost buried under this sprawling mass of machinery to keep him alive and the whole thing working still only sees him as a tool to unite the Imperium and little more. I love the fact that the Imperium ultimately dropped the ball and the Traitors finally dug in deep against them. I love that we have a violent warp storm that divides the galaxy and allows Chaos to strike anywhere now. I love that the Gathering Storm has potentially pushed a whole Tau Expansion to "somewhere/when else" in the galaxy, making it more likely for us to see them showing up wherever. I love that we seem to be building up towards a second Heresy event with Guilliman effectively bringing out new Thunder Warriors (or giving the old Astartes the Thunder Warriors treatment as he retreads the same path his father did). I love that Guilliman's rebirth involved the Eldar since it mirrors the sort of deal the Emperor made with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs: heresy was involved in both "births" of Guilliman, and the Primarch of 30k may have been changed by this as well. I love the idea that Cawl is some kind of nutter who doesn't even known everything he's got going on because he's split his psyche so much to monitor all his projects. I love the teasing that we may have some traitor geneseed mixed into the Primaris Marines (not really a new concept since some loyalists chapters currently existing have similar concepts). I love that the Daemon Primarchs aren't just brooding on their planets and are actually doing something. I love that the loyalist Primarchs who have gone missing may be returning with their own contingency plans playing out in response to the current events. I love what's going because the struggle is still there for humanity, and we're not just coasting on "new Rhino chassis variant to save the day!" I love that Primaris Marines have the punch and staying power we always said Marines should have. I love the Horus Heresy style call backs with the Primaris having no scouts like the traditional Marines do and that they fight with units full of single types of weapons.

 

The warp hit the fan and we're seeing every fail safe coming out across the Imperium and I love the idea.

 

Now this isn't a blind love mind you, I'm not excited that the Blood Angels and Dark Angels basically got the same "nearly wiped out, to include all of the Successor chapters nearly getting wiped out, so here are Primaris Marines" story. I feel like the Dark Angels should have pushed harder to resist the Primaris, or at most accepted them as successors without ever bringing them into the fold where they could learn the truth.

 

If the Space Wolves don't push back against Primaris then we can officially declare a count-down to the phasing out of the normal Marines, with people being able to play them as "old models that are out of scale" with the eventual release of more chapter specific Primaris Marines slowly coming out in waves afterwards.

[deathspectersgt7]

Hey Sete they squat also.