Your thoughts on the Primaris and lore progression

[Bryan Blaire]

From the game play perspective, I find the 2nd wound and attack to both be huge.  The stormcast have the same sort of thing going on.

 

Add in the model size increase and you have it from two angles during a game.  Both the models and their rules feel more like elite space marines.  

 

I think part of this has to do with the 5th through 7th trend of pushing larger and larger items into the game.  Knights.  Huge tanks.  Wraithknights, riptides and other crazy monsters.  In such an environment, a normal space marine is not really all that super human anymore.  The extra wound and attack pushes back on this a bit.

I guess that’s what I meant - it’s nothing specifically about them being “Primaris” that makes them feel elite.

 

If GW has simply said “Here’s the new Marine stat-line” and applied it to any Marines regardless of model, it would have had exactly the same effect. Then they could have had the new models and said “Here’s an additional Marine model line starting up - we feel these better represent Marines on the whole, but it is going to take a long time to bring this line up to speed with the one we’ve been making for the last 12-odd years, so feel free to mix and match in the mean time.” I mean, you can almost use a bolt rifle on a standard Marine and the new “bolt carbine” is essentially a bolter that we’ve been familiar with all along with some new rules.

 

It all begs the question “Why?” and makes it seem like there really wasn’t a reason to have make the fluff justification. That’s my buggest question in all of this about the Primaris: “Why?” or even “What makes the concept of Primaris so superior that they need it instead of the regular Adeptus Astartes?” I just haven’t heard anything that is convincing to me yet, I guess. The models are mostly nice, but I haven’t read anything specific in the fluff about them that makes me go “Oh, so that’s why it’s so much better.”

 

The fluff is almost an after-thought justification that just feels like it didn’t even need to happen.

[Panzer]

 

 

Did he write "old" people hate change? I thought he wrote only that "some" people hate change. Which is honestly true. Some people really instinctively reject any form of change.

 

It's an argument made hundreds of times, whenever some half-arsed release is brought forward and we're supposed to swallow it because if we don't "we just hate change".

 

Go through my list and you'll see every single one of those changes included a good answer to the obvious question of "why haven't we seen this before?". The bad stuff either doesn't answer that question, or gives an utterly stupid answer.

 

Space Wolves are the exception there - I just hate their transformation from Space Vikings to weirdos with a fetish for humping dogs.

 

Yeah but it's not an argument made here in this thread so I don't see the point bringing it up at all.

I also didn't say your points aren't right or wrong. I mean I don't agree on half of your "bad" ones (Primaris and SW. They gave a plausible reason of why we haven't seen them before and why they are now spread across the galaxy) but I honestly don't really care about what every indivdual person here likes and what not so I didn't respond to it. ^^

[Panzer]

 

From the game play perspective, I find the 2nd wound and attack to both be huge.  The stormcast have the same sort of thing going on.

 

Add in the model size increase and you have it from two angles during a game.  Both the models and their rules feel more like elite space marines.  

 

I think part of this has to do with the 5th through 7th trend of pushing larger and larger items into the game.  Knights.  Huge tanks.  Wraithknights, riptides and other crazy monsters.  In such an environment, a normal space marine is not really all that super human anymore.  The extra wound and attack pushes back on this a bit.

I guess that’s what I meant - it’s nothing specifically about them being “Primaris” that makes them feel elite.

 

If GW has simply said “Here’s the new Marine stat-line” and applied it to any Marines regardless of model, it would have had exactly the same effect. Then they could have had the new models and said “Here’s an additional Marine model line starting up - we feel these better represent Marines on the whole, but it is going to take a long time to bring this line up to speed with the one we’ve been making for the last 12-odd years, so feel free to mix and match in the mean time.” I mean, you can almost use a bolt rifle on a standard Marine and the new “bolt carbine” is essentially a bolter that we’ve been familiar with all along with some new rules.

 

It all begs the question “Why?” and makes it seem like there really wasn’t a reason to have make the fluff justification. That’s my buggest question in all of this about the Primaris: “Why?” or even “What makes the concept of Primaris so superior that they need it instead of the regular Adeptus Astartes?” I just haven’t heard anything that is convincing to me yet, I guess. The models are mostly nice, but I haven’t read anything specific in the fluff about them that makes me go “Oh, so that’s why it’s so much better.”

 

The fluff is almost an after-thought justification that just feels like it didn’t even need to happen.

 

No doubt there was more than just one way to handle it. Which one would've been better is debatable but I don't think they picked the most terrible one so I'm fine with it. I would've been fine with your example as well. ^^

 

Fluff-wise I don't think they are better than regular Marines at all. I think they are both two of the same kind. Primaris don't have their own fluff. They are part of the regular Astartes chapters, accepting their traditions and everything. Ultimately in fluff they are just bigger and stronger Marines but still Marines so there's no reason to like them more.

 

So the "why" is rather easy to answer imo. Because someone who had enough to say or was good enough to convince the higher ups thought it's a better idea that way. Being able to sell both, regular Marines and Primaris parallel for a few more years was certainly one of the stronger arguments.

One could argue they created the argument of old Marines vs Primaris on purpose so part of the community decides to stick with the old models instead of just accepting the new models so they can still sell more of the old ones until eventually they switch completely to Primaris (if they do so. I think it's very likely but definitely not 100% safe to say).

[Atrus]

Well theres been some positives and some negatives come out of all this for me.

 

The greatest positive is that gathering storm gave me a gorgeous plastic Celestine model with some butt kicking rules! :)

 

40k for me was always about the setting. I liked the grim darkness of it all probably because i play an army that carries light and faith inside them despite a seemingly hopeless and dark galaxy. A faith in a hope that couldnt be seen.

Im not the biggest fan of much of the new lore. With bobby g trundling about and these sudden biggerer bestest newer marines in tow (i will say, some of the models do look good and i really do like the size of the primaris, putting one of my models beside one of them the dimensions look spot on) and technology suddenly kicked back into gear, my unseen hope felt like it was being taken away and replaced with a spotlight that had all the subtlety of a jackhammer.

 

40k felt like less about a setting and more about characters forced upon me. I didnt like this either as as a setting, i could make my own characters and stories as i wished. Suddenly it felt like everything my beloved characters did, meant nothing in the face of dues ex machina and its crazy characters.

 

But there was definately a good thing. Imperium Nihilis. I love this as it lets me take the bits of new lore and old lore and i like and have my own grimdark little corner of the galaxy. I can ignore bobby g and his oh so convenient jumping across the terrifying Iimperium splitting rift on a whim. I can ignore the technological advances as i choose. Any primaris and new tech i come across is obviously heretical and i can fire away guilt free.

 

So yeah. I still enjoy 40k. I have a lot of fun still and i like the scale of the new models coming out with primaris.

Yet, if it werent for imperium nihilus, i camt help but feel my enjoyment would have been greatly hampered.

[Panzer]

I can agree on the thing that GW uses Guilliman for basically everything that is happening anywhere in the galaxy currently.

I really like him as character the way they wrote him in 40k now but him doing everything became annoying really quickly. One of the reasons why I hope they're going to release another loyal Primarch soon so they can split their attention between the two.

[Guest Triszin]

I love the new aesthetics, I wanted marines to have grav vehicles as standard equipment forever.

 

 

- I think the lore is rushed, and a bit hap hazard. But I can cope with that depending on how the Lore evolves from here.

 

- I'm happy we are seeing the primarchs again

 

- I really hope Xenos all get the same treatment 9expanded lore new kits

 

- I'd like to see marines/standard/primaris gain access to the entire armory, no poor lore segregation of equipment for the sake of vanity.

 

 

- the biggest thing i want honestly is decent lore, I want writers to write enemies and foes as though they are intelligent, I dont enjoy ham fisted endings, or plot armor decoys. 

 

 

[Bryan Blaire]

Primaris don't have their own fluff.

Of course they have their own fluff - the fluff about how they were come up with, made, equipped, delivered, and now we even have new fluff on exactly how the generation process for a Primaris differs from a standard Astartes (which to some extent kills the idea that “old” Marines can be made into Primaris because the organ implantation process occurs during the standard organ implantation process for Marines and needs to so that one of the new organs can regulate the integration as the new organs grow with the “old” Marine organs).

 

Their armor and weapons have new fluff, their vehicle has new fluff, etc.

 

None of this stuff is fluff for standard Adeptus Astartes.

 

So the "why" is rather easy to answer imo. Because someone who had enough to say or was good enough to convince the higher ups thought it's a better idea that way. Being able to sell both, regular Marines and Primaris parallel for a few more years was certainly one of the stronger arguments.

There would be no real reason they wouldn’t have been able to sell both the old and “larger” scale Marines alongside each forever, actually, if they were both the same type of Marines. They could have even slowly phased one or the other of them out in stores as sales declined and relegate the lower seller to a “mail order run only” type package as long as sales weren’t so low as to make them completely detrimental to still selling them.

 

That particular answer to the “Why” isn’t really an answer at all.

 

One such idea instead: The “Primaris” organs could literally have been something never before activated in all Marines, boosting everyone at the same time, they just could have been lurking as “seeded elements” to be used when the Emperor determined when the need was big enough. Then all Marines could have had the same stat line, people could have chosen which size line they want to keep using, and things would still be hunky-dory for GW.

 

The “Why” of requiring a split in the fashion they did is part of the bigger overall “Why” on everything.

 

One could argue they created the argument of old Marines vs Primaris on purpose so part of the community decides to stick with the old models instead of just accepting the new models so they can still sell more of the old ones until eventually they switch completely to Primaris (if they do so. I think it's very likely but definitely not 100% safe to say).

That would have been the situation no matter what. The fluff created doesn’t really make that any more palatable...

[Panzer]

You know what I meant with no own fluff. All the things you listed only served as introduction and only makes them a bit better than regular Space Marines but in the end they are just that. Better Space Marines with the same "culture" as the chapter they joined.

 

Yes they could have sold both, however people would've been much more accepting of the new models with your way and would have less reason to still buy the old "outdated" models imo. With the clear split between the two people have more of a reason to still buy the old models.

[Bryan Blaire]

If they eventually produce any Primaris versions of the standard Marine squads, then the argument that people have a reason to buy the old one is clearly not a reason at all. You could produce both, and people would buy both, based on their preference. A business doesn’t have to kill off one line of luxury product to have another.

 

If your argument is “this way GW can force people to keep buying the old one”, that also isn’t true. You clearly don’t have to have “old” Marines to play Marines now.

 

It still gets back to the overall “Why?” and there really aren’t a lot of really good answers for it.

 

What is the difference between a bolt carbine and a bolter, when they effectively look the same? There is even a bolter with a larger barrel shroud that looks practically identical to the bolt carbine on a Reiver minus the gas exhaust ports? Is it literally the forward upright grip? Why can standard Marines not use the Hellblaster weapons? It can’t be the length or heft of the weapon, because plasma cannons are more bulky than those are.

 

There’s a ton of “Whys” that you can chase down, and the fluff doesn’t really satisfactorily answer them, and the business reasons aren’t actually a hard justification either.

 

I think in the end, the answer is basically “Because GW chose to”, and then they show-horned in less than satisfactory to some fluff when they essentially didn’t have to and would have almost gotten themselves a free pass.

[Panzer]

Well apparently I'm not good enough at explaining it so my participation on that specific argument ends here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Mileposter]

The answer might also anticlimactically be "No one could have predicted it would have been this big of a deal".

[Lexington]

Yeah their storywriting sucks because they got written by some GW staff instead of proper novelists.

I hear this a lot, and tend to think it's a Problem Idea. 40K was created by GW's Studio Staff - Rick Priestley, Andy Chambers, Gav Thorpe, Jervis Johnson, etc. They wrote the rules, came up with the concepts and put down the prose. Some of them did go on to do novels later, sure, but they weren't at the time. Writing novels is a particular skill set that has a lot of overlap with whatever one wants to call the skill set that the old Studio posessed, but they're not the same thing.

[Ishagu]

Mileposter -

 

How big of a deal is it?

I see a lot of players enjoying Primaris Marines, buying, painting and playing with models.

The kits are doing well, easy to build models are cheap and the army isn't a massive investment of money and time.

 

I made this topic because Primaris marines haven't outraged the entire community. In my circle of friends there are 5 serious 40k hobbyists who all have no problem with Primaris. The same sentiments are shared in my local community by and large.

[Panzer]

I don't have much of a local 40k community outside of my regular group but yeah nobody seems to mind Primaris at all either (tho we don't exactly have lots of Marine player. Me with BA/T'au, a fresh GK player, a DW/Tyranid player,someone who used to play SW but switched to DG and a AdMech/soon TSons player).

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Yeah their storywriting sucks because they got written by some GW staff instead of proper novelists.

I hear this a lot, and tend to think it's a Problem Idea. 40K was created by GW's Studio Staff - Rick Priestley, Andy Chambers, Gav Thorpe, Jervis Johnson, etc. They wrote the rules, came up with the concepts and put down the prose. Some of them did go on to do novels later, sure, but they weren't at the time. Writing novels is a particular skill set that has a lot of overlap with whatever one wants to call the skill set that the old Studio posessed, but they're not the same thing.

 

Isn't it more that the current GW staff are trying to be novelists? It's a complaint often heard about more recent stuff, going back to the 6th ed Codex Supplements like Iyanden and Raukaan (not the only complaint with those, mind), that these books are written like novels, bludgeoned to fit the Codex structure with they fit into poorly, rather than being written as Codexes.

 

The old studio stuff seemed to have the priority on atmosphere and setting. They were worldbuilding books as much as rules and gaming books. Yes there were stories and histories, but they often had the 'feel' of myth and legend to them, plus there were things like the in universe cut outs and side stories, which gave the books so much atmosphere and 'weight'. That's been almost entirely lost in the modern studio. Take Codex Space Marines as an example. If it was an old style Codex there would likely be little fluff asides with Marines and Primaris interacting. There'd be some space devoted to more detail of Primaris integration and recruitment (are there Primaris Scouts was a big question, that still doesn't seem to have been answered), as well as how the new Primaris only Chapters operate and differ from the old guard. Instead we got a lot of big pictures and copy pasted colour profiles.

[RandomMarine]

I like the miniatures they are a joy to build have minimal bling. On the table physically they look like the super soldier they are compared to the other humanoid races, very easy to paint for a beginner but with enough layers to the armour for a better painter to have options.

 

Rules wise. They are ok nothing stellar but solid. You can't run a pure primaris army and win a major tournament but if you could people would moan about how gw is forcing marine players to buy primaris

 

Fluff. Generally not as bad as ppl say imo, all the post 8th fiction I've read is pretty good, g man hates what the Imperium has become , Calgar having doubts about his primarch and the primaris,custodes being out and about in the galaxy in secret for millennia,SoS and AC being designed as complimentary forces to fight demons, Medusa being invaded and the biggest tank battle since tallarn ensuing, galaxy split in half with random. All of these are good additions imo. The worst thing about the primaris introduction is their explanation for them existing it was kinda half assed,

I think the setting jumped forward to M42 so they have space to write some fiction to fill the gaps and add new characters.

[Deschenus Maximus]

"You never get a second chance to make a first impression."

 

The way Primaris Marines were introduced was badly botched, imo. Though I've come to terms with their existence, I still have strong reservations about them - in part due to the aforementioned botched intro.

 

As I said in the other thread, I badly wished GW had made Primaris into a variant of Space Marine that has advantages (stronger and tougher) but also disadvantages (slower, less agile) instead of just being flat-out better. I would have been far more welcoming of them then.

[Bryan Blaire]

are there Primaris Scouts was a big question, that still doesn't seem to have been answered

Since we have the organ implantation process/order for Primaris, we know it is done while the recruits are Scouts, just like for any Space Marine. The Primaris organs are even implanted during the standard organ implantation order. So there are Scouts who get the Primaris organs - does this make them Primaris Scouts? Seems like they are just Scouts until they are finished with all the organ implantations, including the Black Carapace, which still comes last.

 

It’s in the most recent Index Astartes in White Dwarf from 2017 (don’t have the month at hand).

[Mileposter]

Mileposter -

 

 

 

How big of a deal is it?

 

I see a lot of players enjoying Primaris Marines, buying, painting and playing with models.

 

The kits are doing well, easy to build models are cheap and the army isn't a massive investment of money and time.

 

 

 

I made this topic because Primaris marines haven't outraged the entire community. In my circle of friends there are 5 serious 40k hobbyists who all have no problem with Primaris. The same sentiments are shared in my local community by and large.

I have the privilege of being involved in several metas - some that are spread out over a large area where I currently live (One GW store, three FLGS stores) and being connected to my old meta groups an entire country away (One GW store, two FLGS stores) along with the segment of the population we get in this community at B&C. It is by no means a snapshot of the entire consumer base, but it is a large enough sample that I feel I can move my observation passed "Local Meta Bias". Grains of salt beyond that are required.

 

The note that I'm poking at here isn't that people are outraged. Some are, obviously. But even in those that like the Primaris, few seem comfortable fielding Primaris and Tactical Marines side by side. Some do anyway - for one reason or another - but I've heard that sentiment pronouncely through both those for and against them. I think that sentiment is the lynchpin of the big thing. Even if everyone hated everything surrounding them... If they felt cool side by side with the other Marines the introduction would have been better received and smooth.

 

That the disconnect is felt so widely and thoroughly is a situation I don't think could have been predicted. After all, new sculpts of models have come out before, things have been updated using new materials, and other situations have come and gone with less fuss.

 

I'm certain that there are varied reasons folks might have for why they have the disconnect... But it's clearly there. And that's why it's a big deal. Not because it fosters the hate (though to a degree it does) but because even those rooting for the Primaris and what they mean for the future can feel that... Departure?

 

That's not to claim it for positive or negative. Just... Is. And that 'is' certainly seems to have exacerbated whatever other misgivings we may have had.

[Marshal Loss]

Considering the only time I've ever seen you disagree with something GW has done was when you threw a tantrum of apocalyptic proportions over Guilliman's rules, this thread comes as little surprise. 

 

As I point out, this is the universe of space magic, soccer hooligans and a god of sex, but apparently a tech-priest who can build better rifles is too much for some to swallow, even though he's fully justified because he comes from a time when the Mechanicum DID innovate.

 

There's a small, teeny-weeny difference between one singular tech priest building better rifles and a tech priest who builds better rifles, armour, tanks, flyers, and genetically engineered super soldiers than the entire Mechanicum + Emperor of Mankind was able to do so at the height of mankind's power. Woeful argument.

 

Most arguments have already been made more effectively elsewhere, but you're misrepresenting and misunderstanding a series of important points here. To be succinct, most people disagree with the implementation of the lore, as it feels jarring when compared with the setting we've known for decades. You're also subscribing almost totally to anecdotal evidence; 'my area loves it, and I love it, and it is good,' 'technological regression is damaging the hobby,' 'this will be good for the setting.' In 5 years, maybe we'll all be on board with the new setting they're working towards. Maybe not. But you're confusing 'I don't like how they did this, and I don't like the justification for this happening' with 'I don't like this at all'. Comparatively few people are sitting around typing 'I hate this, it's rubbish, cause it's rubbish'. GW doesn't need yes-men, they need constructive criticism.

 

There is nothing wrong with change. The simple truth is that GW tried to do too much too quickly. In the space of six months we went from the status quo to Cadia being blown up, a Primarch coming back and a race of super-super soldiers (because the super soldiers we had weren't good enough, apparently) coming out of nowhere. Imagine if that was done over a period of years, with hints laid in various campaign books and novels. Far more palatable. Instead, we were nearly at the edge of doom, the end times - and then Cadia happened (underwhelmingly, despite being a key part of the lore for decades) - and now we have super super soldiers, and they expect us to believe we're at the edge of doom again?

 

What they should have done is moved the story forward one piece at a time, showing us that they could string together a narrative instead of just shoving it into a new age, but sadly that opportunity is now long gone.

[Gentlemanloser]

Primaris minis (mostly look great). My mates also like them as they find them nicer to paint.

 

I'm salty about Primaris only because GW have deemed i shouldn't be allowed them. For reasons. Well no reason at all.

 

As for gathering storm. Oh man was i hyped! Setting moving on finally!

 

But no. It didn't. What amassive let down.

 

The Ordo Cronos created to keep 40k in 40k, rather than move the clock on.

 

And awesome background to our war games, the indomitus crusade, forgotten as quickly as it was created. What a waste.

 

Then, nothing of any substance actually *changed*.

 

But some of the Primaris range is brilliant.

[Firepower]

Does changing the title of the thread to an optimistic phrasing mean we're not going to go down the exact same rabbit hole with the exact same arguments played on loop? 

 

Well, I guess in the spirit of things, I think a few of the Primaris models look cool...that's about all I got, really. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

Ishagu, your levels of optimism are outstanding.

 

I'll admit, I wasn't fond of Primaris when they were introduced. However, that was changed when I read the lore in the new Dark Angels codex. They are stated to be a return to the Heresy-era squads with mono-weapon loadouts. Now, I've loved the Heresy but I did not play 30k. Playing a small force of Dark Angels would never be the same as playing my own Chapter.

 

So I sat here in 40k, in envy of the cool toys the Legions got. Then Big G rocked up and said "Cappy, I know they are not the same but here are some Legion Tactical Squads and Tactical Support Squads. I don't know if I can give you Destroyer Squads yet...lemme ask Dad."

 

Then I got the idea to make an all Primaris Company. I already had the Death- and Ravenwing so it was easy to justify for my DiY chapter. The downside is I now need to make ANOTHER Company and find somewhere to store it.

All I need is some not-Destroyer squads and I'll be a happy Cappy.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Some Destroyer Primaris would be awesome, but I don't really want to see the Primaris basically become "30k in 40k" completely.

[Shockmaster]

If I did not read internet forums then I would have had no idea that the recent background material was causing so much turmoil, as I have not met anyone in my local scenes who is that outraged by it, people either actively enjoy the Primaris or just don't really care.

 

I know you could argue the people most upset may have just disappeared but in my experience with hobbies(not just wargaming) people rarely disappear silently, they like to run a crusade to explain why others are objectively wrong for enjoying what they enjoy, I know that because that is the way I behaved during my worst moments in my main hobbies over the years.

 

It is a shame if anyone is finding their hobby so spoiled by recent releases as it is not good to lose anyone from the community but all I can offer is focus on what you enjoy, edit out what you don't enjoy in your own head, it is simple, effective and has made me much happier.

 

As for example I have no interest in the Horus Heresy setting or model range, so when GW first started exploring 30k I was hateful towards it because I preferred(and still do) that era to be mystery & legends that are never explained but then I decided to just ignore it, as some hobbyists love it so good luck to them, I am glad for them, not my place to try convincing them they are wrong due to my personal preferences.