Your thoughts on the Primaris and lore progression

[BitsHammer]

I'll be upfront, I'm working on this post at work and am posting after I get off so I may miss some things that were said, or repeat other things people have mentioned. At the time of me starting this I've only seen the OP, so I'll just be going with that.

 

For me, and I know I'm not in the majority here, Primaris Marines have done a lot to make the game better. Marines have been in a bad place balance wise for several editions now (basically always, give or take some very specific builds) and the model line, while having some nice additions, has felt like it's stagnating, or just repeating the same notes over and over again.

 

Need a new tank? Here's a Rhino with an extra sprue, maybe two to make it "different".

 

Need a new unit? Here's your Tactical Squad with different sprues to make them run and wear jump packs, carry heavy weapons, or have special bolters.

 

New Dreadnought? Here's the old one with a new sprue to give it a different front and a different arm!

 

Basically Space Marines have largely been doing a Henry the VII with "second verse, same as the first" for sometime. An when we get something that is truly different (Centurions for example) it suffers from needing to tie into what already exists.

 

Primaris Marines through all of that baggage out the window and tells it to go play in traffic. Need squads that look different? Now we have various forms of Mk X armour to allow us to make different units feel different visually as well as mechanically.

 

Need new tanks? Now we have a whole new frontier of floating bricks to explore instead of just trundling along with the same basic tank design that's been the core of most of our tank kits since third.

 

Need a new Dreadnought? Here's one with a completely different design that shows what happens when you tell the Mechanicus to make a Dreadnought "better" but don't put in guidelines about not killing the pilot (they regularly burn out the pilot like some kind of battery being drained due to the heavy stimulus overload.....Slaanesh would be proud).

 

Need to make Marines feel more appropiate on the table? Here's a new statline that fits these guys into the game while promoting the new kits for both new players, as well as veteran players who haven't bought new kits since 5th edition.

 

Tired of seeing X chapter struggling to survive in the lore constantly? Let's get them some reinforcements so we can see how much butt they'll kick when at full strength.

 

And with them also came other things I have to like.

 

Tired of the same old Black Crusade narrative where nothing matters and Abbadon suck more than a Hoover test faciity? Well now we can have him actually have spent ten thousand years in preparation for a long running plan that breaks the galaxy and nearly seals Terra off from the rest of the Galaxy (seriously, read Watchers of the Throne, he nearly managed to completely kill the Imperium according to that book)!

 

Tired of the same old unchanging Codex? Well now Guilliman is taking 10k years of innovation from various sources and refining it to be less rigid!

 

Tired of the Mechanicus never sharing their toys? Well now they are!

 

Tired of the Eldar always griping about how they're basically doomed but never doing anything to fix it? Now they have!

 

Tired of hearing those Creed memes? Well now he's been kidnapped by Necrons! (you can still play him in the game now, wibbly wobbly warp indeed)

 

Want Guardsmen that actually punch people right in the spine before breaking it off? Catachan has your back!

 

Want a way to explain Tau being able to be everywhere/when in the Galaxy so you don't need narrative reasons for the to be in campaigns? Well now they have a whole lost expansion who accidently flew into the Rift and can be anywhere/when in the galaxy (to include possibly being the ones who uplifted their own race thanks to time paradoxes!)

 

Want Orks to represent their mob mentality properly? Well now they're Ld doesn't just go to 11 but goes to 30 and they benefit just by being close to a bigger horde of Orks!

 

Want Fallen to be more important than the occasional dude, or maybe small squad of dudes that we always see in the fluff? Well now we know there is a literal Legion of traitor Dark Angels to represent on the table so there is a lot more than can be done with them than we've gotten so far.

 

Tired of needing special tables for vehicles? Well now they can be wounded like regular models so you can just track things normally for them too!

 

Tired of never being able to use Plasma without melting? Now you can! Unless you Overcharge. Good thing you can buy rerolls, right?

 

Basically every niggling thing I was finding to become more and more stale has been addressed in some way. The Imperium is no longer sitting in a position of strength while we're told it's slowly dying. Tau are no longer those new kids down the block and can appear even during the Great Crusade now. Marines are starting to feel like Marines do in the lore thanks to the Primaris and comparing the stats of a Primaris to a scout makes it feel like a Scout hasn't finished their implants yet, making it a signifigant difference between the two models again. The codex is no longer an excuse to not change up Marines from codex to codex. The return of the Primarchs allows us to see drastic shifts in armies and the potential for "codex chapters" to drastically move away from being codex compliant in the long run.

 

Basically everything I could ask for is there....mostly.

 

Now, ironically considering my avatar/two favorite loyalist factions, I am never one to commit to blind fanaticism to anything so I do need to address that there are somethings I feel should be handled better, and maybe the plot threads in the codexes will turn into something greater in the BL's hands. I want to like the Primaris but it feels like the Studio hasn't worked out how to give them to everyone without hamfisting the same plot line.

 

Now don't get me wrong, the Blood Angels having Primaris Marines who have less mutated geneseed and don't (yet) suffer the Black Rage being accepted in fits them. It shows possible redemption for the sons of Sanguinius and a way forward for the chapters long since thought to be on a road to damnation. Some of the Primaris Marines may have even walked with Sanguinius for a time and would be most welcome among the various Blood Angels related chapters.

 

The part that bothers me is how easilly the Dark Angels allow the Primaris to be given to them. Hurting or not the Dark Angels have some serious issues with their guilt, and none of the Primaris know anything about Caliban's fall. They don't have the stories that prepare them to learn the truth, nor do they have the psycho-conditioning that would allow them take it without turning on the chapter. The entire process of them even being accepted into the chapter is basically worth a novel in and of itself. I can see Gulliman needing to force them upon the Dark Angels while at the same time trying to not spark a civil war with the chapter. Concessions would likely need to be made and I can imagine a council being held by the various Dark Angel related chapters on how to deal with the Primaris for now. There is an interesting plot there that doesn't get enough detail and I'm a little disappointment that we don't have anything alluding to the strained tensions that could be rising from this. Nor do we have Guilliman addressing any possible notes about the Dark Angels potential legion building. Not saying it's bad, but there are definite missed opportunities there.

 

Likewise I feel that there is some missed opportunities for the Black Templars. If the Dark Angels can be accused of Legion building then the Black Templars are just outright legion building (by abusing a technicality, but for a second founding chapter to pull it off for ten thousand years is pretty impressive since we usually only see first founding chapters ever get away with stuff in the lore). We see Guilliman had admonished Helbretch for focusing on chasing Ghazghul too much over taking on the other, more immediate threats (I'm going to love to see how this plays out in the long run and who gets to be right over this issue too) and that some Primaris get shoved onto the Eternal Crusade but nothing in the lore, nor the rules, sees any attempt to truly mix them into the existing Black Templars. For a chapter that fights using adhoc units of similarly minded brethren, I'm not seeing it carry over as much to the Primaris. Where is the Primaris option for Crusader squads? Where is the mentioning of the new Templars being brought into the fold and learning from Sword Brethren or Initiates about the way of war? Where is basically anything to draw these two very different things together?

 

Maybe it's left for our own fluff, maybe it's threads left open for people to write stories about later, maybe it's just an oversight in a push to ensure that no one feels that they can't take Primaris in their armies. I don't know. It could be all the above, but I really feel like we have a few missed opportunities that could have really made the changes that much better.

 

So to sum my feelings up, I'd rate this whole edition, Primaris included, as 8.5 burning heretics out of 10. Does a lot to bring my attention back to the game, makes changes I'd say that are more good than bad, but doesn't quite stick the landing through the lore. If the BL stuff coming out brings the background up and gives us the sort of stuff we're looking for (basically smoothing out the rough spots in the lore as they have done in the past) then I'd probably bring my rating up to a 9 or 9.5 burning heretics outta 10.

 

Now with all my gushing aside, I do want to mention why I think we basically need to expect the Primaris to be replacing the standard Marines overall (though I expect standard guys to stay legal for play, just under the banner of "upgraded to Primaris" somewhere further down the line).

 

First off is that the Marine line was pretty stagnant. Other than a few kits with altered details (something upgrade kits basically push to the side), or the occasional new weapon (Blood Angel tacticals having a Heavy Flamer in the box), there wasn't really room to bring new stuff into the army. Nor were selling new, slightly better kits with more wargear options going to keep selling things for the army.

 

Let's be honest, most people own a Space Marine army of one flavor or another. And with that our collections were largely complete a long time ago. Now occasionally we'd pick up one or two things here or there, but except for the very dedicated collector who was building and painting a full chapter there weren't many of us who would buy more than whatever we needed to play 1,500-2,000 point games (unless Apoc was a thing for you, then you might get some super heavies from FW and push that to 3,000-4,000). So we'd get a little here and there and basically outside of the folks who constantly buy new armies every time the meta changes the Space Marines were likely seeing a slow decline in revenue.

 

Now GW has tried to inject some new blood into the army with stuff like the Stalker tank, Stormraven, Centurions and Heresy era kits, but none of this is going to honestly bring the sort of sales spike that the army probably needs at this point. Add in the balance issues between fluff and crunch and Marines were not looking all that great.

 

And let's be frank, a rules update isn't going to get people to buy new stuff for their army. Almost any unit you need you can probably build just by shuffling some models around your collection. And adding in something like Centurions didn't really bring a boost in people starting new armies or buying large amounts for their existing ones.

 

On the other hand, Primaris does both things. It brings the crunch closer to the fluff while at the same time injecting new stuff into the army (and allowing the developers to slowly phase out the older stuff). The Primaris are different. They have a style that is more modern than the older models, and they basically sell us that rules update we've been wanting. Want Marines that feel like Marines? Take these new guys who are in a better scale with the rest of the line and also bring the feeling of Space Marines onto the table.

 

It is a very market driven approach to the problem, but at the end of the day I can't blame GW. It has been painting itself into a corner with how Marines look, feel and can even be on the table since 2nd edition. That's not really a good thing. The army doesn't have enough differences between subfactions (like, say Guard) to get away with just releasing different subfactions over and over again (we've even shown we were growing a little tired of it around the time we got Grey Knights in 5th). The army needed a major retooling to allow them to rebalance it against the rest of the game while also bringing new stuff in to encourage sales and interest in actually buying stuff for the army. And so we have Primaris Marines.

 

And look at them, save for Intercessors and Hellblasters, basically every unit is distinct from each other, meaning less just shuffling around guys to play new stuff. They're also in a better scale in both rules and model size. Basically they're everything Marines need to be to ensure the army continues to sell without just having people shuffle models around constantly to create the new units.If you look at most (albiet not all since Sisters fall into the same trap at the moment) armies we have, especially stuff we're seeing come out now, GW has moved to make every unit look different to the others, even if they can take similar wargear. This is so that everytime someone wants to take something new they'll need to get a new box to build that new unit and not just reuse what we've already got.

 

I mean look at Eldar, or Tyranids. The models vary from unit to unit and because of it whenever something comes out we need to pick up a whole new kit just to run it instead of shuffling things around, or digging out some half-used sprues of tacticals and hitting up ebay or other people for bits.

 

Basically what I'm trying to say that behind all of this isn't what the community may have wanted from Marines, but it's what the army needed to keep selling as stuff rolls out instead of us just recycling models and units to fit changed options. I honestly expect it going forward for just about every army (like the Custodes who didn't just reuse the Custodian Guard as an elite unit, but retooled the models to include cloaks). Basically every unit will be unique to itself, for all the benefits that brings the army itself, and all that hampers the modeller.

 

I'll take some mild inconvenience in how modelling works, or what our current wargear options are, for the sake of seeing an army that has the tools it needs built in to keep it fresh and growing for some time to come though.

[deathspectersgt7]

Pffffft. I am doing fine with my 100 different Chapters w/o Primaris.

[Guest]

I wonder something. Could Primaris be a way to simply realign the SM as tougher marines without pissing off other factions? When I asked months ago how people would feel about SM being higher cost but more wounds/tougher the huge outcry was "No! Then how can my (x) army deal with that!? SM are already tough enough". GW simply stepped to the side and said "Here are SM+1" and people went instead "omg the fluff sucks!" or other reasons. How much controversy would it cause if GW gave Primaris a update with only 1 attack now... but they can take melee weapons also. So take that chainsword and get your attack again. They nerfed the Primaris but then gave them a boost in the form of weapon upgrade for points.

 

If GW simply stated "Hey this 8th edition and SM are now *primaris-like stat line here*" how pissed off would other factions be? We already have another thread stating that Power Armor is underpowered (with some good points and good counter-points). This is just a step in bringing more and more marines to be realingned. Once most SM/CSM player adopt Primaris then 9th edition drops and the SM simply begin to fade.

 

Or I'm completly wrong and GW just blundered this. Primaris should be able to take Land Raiders and Rhino's, and wield melee weapons either way.

 

Edit: Maybe Intercessors are Tactical Marines of 30k, and we get Veteran Intercessors that can wield melee and bolters like Veteran Tacticals in 30k. *shrug*

[Noserenda]

I think the important thing here is the super awesome toy soldiers :D Like, if it wasnt for the weirdly limited gear choices on Characters (golly gee is with that anyway? ) Id be 100% on board the Primaris train for ever, as it is my urge to convert all the things strains against that crap too hard :D That and with no solid plans im hobby butterflying like mad amidst all the cool things GW is doing these days.

The fluff is pretty awful and incomplete to boot, it feels like we are missing half the fluff for the primaris? It might be in the angels codexes tbh, might check them out. 

But ultimately it all comes back to the toy soldiers, most of my group, aside from some face palming over ham handed fluff in codex marines has just gotten on with whatever things catch their fancy.

[Brother Tyler]

I'm of mixed thoughts about the Primaris line.

 

Size-wise, the Primaris look to me like GW's effort to "truescale" the line. The problem is that if that was their intent, they aborted it with the lore that the Primaris Astartes are taller than the legacy Astartes (all they succeeded in doing was moving raising the bar instead of jumping over it). If that wasn't GW's intent, then I guess it's not a problem (but now hobbyists will still have to "truescale" their Primaris minis).

 

As others have said, the background for the Primaris Astartes was poorly executed (in my opinion). Saying that some of the Primaris Astartes battle-brothers have been in stasis since around the time of the Second Founding means that Cawl had the process completed at that time. It seems to me that the whole story behind the Cursed Founding provides a perfect basis for Cawl's experimentation over the years (I'm not saying that the Cursed Founding was Cawl's work, mind you, only that it provided perfect material for the background of the Primaris development), with Cawl finally completing the project (i.e., mastery of the method of Primaris development for full implementation) at some time after the Cursed Founding (i.e., M36 or later). I get that GW wanted everybody to take Primaris Astartes in "their" chosen Chapter, but having such a large number of Primaris Astartes ready to thaw out just doesn't seem plausible - it violates one of the elements that makes the legacy Adeptus Astartes so special - the pool of viable recruits is small and keeps their numbers low. The Primaris Astartes background makes the Adeptus Astartes look like a bunch of rookies (I'm referring here to their ability to recruit and develop full battle-brothers, but I suppose that goes to other things, too).

 

Visually, I really like the aesthetic and incorporation of elements from several marks of power armour. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me aesthetically is the kneepads (those are just dumb, in my opinion).  I love the helmets, torsos, and weapons, though. They far outshine the stupid knee flares.

 

Rule-wise, they are a step in the right direction, but lack the flexibility they should have. I'm pretty confident that GW will fix that over time as they expand the model line (the initial limitations seem to be driven by modeling options). The re-introduction of the lieutenant is long overdue.

 

As what I think is the initial step in supplanting the legacy Adeptus Astartes line, I'm much more negative. Much of that has to do with the fact that I have lots and lots of unpainted legacy Adeptus Astartes minis. The consolation I have for that problem is that I can just use my legacy models to represent pre-Primaris timeline armies (e.g., Scouring era, Age of Apostasy, Badab War, etc.) once we see the legacy Astartes removed from the "current" setting at some future time.

 

Still, despite the negatives, I welcome the Primaris Astartes to the line. One day I'll get around to painting some up for gaming (after I finish all of my unpainted legacy Adeptus Astartes, that is).

 

As others have said, the advancing of the storyline wasn't, in my opinion, a bad thing. I personally would have preferred if GW had kept the setting static, instead looking back at historical periods for development (much like Forge World has done to fantastic effect with the Horus Heresy books). Advancing a storyline is always a very tricky thing and no matter how it is done, someone is going to be pissed off. GW cleverly avoided disenfranchising specific factions (i.e., they didn't outright destroy any major Chapters/factions or have them change their loyalties). They also didn't remove the grimdark, no matter how much some might claim that to have happened. Instead, GW shifted things around a bit, retaining a grimdark atmosphere while filling it with sulfur instead of methane (or vice versa, if you prefer ;) ). The stakes have gotten a bit higher with the return of some primarchs, but GW hasn't screwed it up entirely, which would be the case if they brought back too many primarchs. The introduction of the Ynnari, too, fits well enough within the previous lore. It was all a bit rushed, I agree, and may have been executed better, but it's tolerable. I, personally, would like GW to lay it out on the table and tell us which Chapters and worlds have been lost to the Cicatrix Maledictum. Sure, I might lose a beloved Chapter, but I'm not emotionally invested in my little toy soldiers enough to let such a thing stress me out. If anything, I guess, I think GW could have been a bit more ruthless in how it updates the lore. They've tiptoed around making drastic changes in an effort to not upset any little hobby snowflakes (though they clearly failed in that effort, as the whinging around the B&C and the rest of the Internet demonstrates).

 

Overall, though, despite my misgivings, I see the changes as something that can be easily accepted and adapted to by players who have a healthy approach to things and a bonafide interest in enjoying the hobby.

[Marshal Rohr]

Instead of pushing the Timeline forward, Guilliman could've been resurrected 'relatively' secretly a hundred years before Abaddons return - staying behind the scenes while he comes to grips with the new Imperium. Calgar continued to lead the Chapter while Guilliman goes to Terra and becomes Regent Sub Rosa, reorganizing the Imperial Guard spread so thing across the galaxy to better combat the threats. Primaris are deployed in waves, first independently, then integrated over a longer stretch of time, Ultimately everything lines up for the opening of the Great Rift and Abaddon's Invasion, coinciding with Ghazghkull as the Beast and a Unification of the Necron Dynasties. The Tau expand outwards faster than ever before, and the shattered Eldar rebuild themselves into a non-nomadic faction loosely aligned with the Imperium. 


Thats my headcanon. It works for me.  

[Lord_Caerolion]

Was it confirmed that there are Primaris Marines that were 'finished' pre-Second Founding, or just that the initial batch used recruits that were drawn from that time? The Project being perfected 10,000 years ago doesn't really fit, in my mind.

 

...But then again, we know the Emperor had existing "super-Marines" tech lying around even back then, like the hot-housing technology used by Corax on the Raven Guard. After all, the Emperor never really went into his project wanting to make Space Marines, he wanted Primarchs. It was only after they were taken that he changed focus onto developing the Thunder Warriors into the Legionnes Astartes. There's enough to head-canon there that there were many "superior" organs that were developed for the Primarch Program that couldn't be shoe-horned into the rush-job that was creating the Astartes in time to launch the Great Crusade. Who know what other organs were developed and blueprinted that never made their way past conceptualisation in the downsizing from Primarch to Astartes?

 

For all we know, the organs "developed" by Cawl might have already been 80% finished translating across Projects, they just didn't have the time to install them in the final model. Guilliman may have found records of these, and thought that it'd be best to have the process finished.

[Radiation]

The Primaris line finally gave me a reason to stop buying models and focus on what I have, which is already too much. That's been a good thing for me. It was a good clean cut.

[SpecialIssue]

Firstly, the models are good – almost no one hates the entire Primaris line. Technology developments in miniature production ensured they will be better than what has come before. Their proportions are great and as everyone goes on about, they finally feel like marines. I agree.

 

The thing is that this argument seems to be the main one used to justify the half-baked fluff that accompanied these great models. I love great looking models (and the subsequent financial solvency of the company) as much as anyone, but this is no excuse to sell the integrity of faction identity and macro themes so cheaply –especially when it would be simple to create something good with a little more thought to the history of 40k. As said before, it is telling that there are few if any defenders for the actual quality of the new lore – almost all points in defence for the new lore are based on commercial realities and its ability to bring new models into the setting. I could have come up with far better alternatives.

 

What’s frustrating is that change can be good, I completely agree. The thing is, this change is not. It is literally the laziest, most generic, vanilla, shrink-wrapped, straight-forward commercial route they could have gone. There was no gravitas in any of the events that had been foreshadowed for decades (Cadia, 13th Black Crusade, etc) due to the execution of their roll-out, and the way much of it contradicts some of the universe’s basic themes.

 

Like I have said before, the lore is made up. You can justify anything by stringing together a sentence like “a guy has been working on a secret project for 10,000 years.” That does not make it good, as it has had no foreshadowing, no consequences apart from the end-goal it is blatantly trying to achieve, no other connection with the universe is purports to be a part of. It is the very definition of the literary failure of ‘Alien Space Bats’, a MacGuffin. Even in a universe with ‘space magic, soccer hooligans and gods of sex’ these basics to a narrative still need to be given if there is to be any gravitas and impact to the ‘story’. It reads blatantly of ‘this happened, then this happened, in order so that we could release these models.’

 

There was a lack of meaningful impact of this new lore apart from new models. Instead of giving agency to the villains of the story, as their big moment, Gathering Storm and the Cicatrix robbed them of it (where is Abbadon and the Black Legion, the 30-year old threat of the anti-christ and his traitor legions making a concerted attack on the Imperium?). Konor meant nothing and has been forgotten.

 

Instead of broadening the universe, we’re seeing a contraction, where a few characters are able to influence the galaxy at large through a few actions and uninspired, tiny battles, where everything from 10,000 years ago is now suddenly remembered and just as relevant. The galaxy now isn’t one made up of an aeon of lost history and thousands of light years that could take a man a lifetime to traverse at the best of times. The realistically mind-boggingly huge scale of 40k isn’t being portrayed through the sheer diffusion of the stories being told.

 

Which brings us to another wrong turn I can see with this new 40k. For 30 years, it was a setting, not a story. That is a strength. It means that the quality of the universe is never beholden to individual literary missteps by authors. It means that there is always huge give in any number of interpretations of how the universe will develop by fans. The literary quality comes not from cheap plot-twists expected to be accepted by their galaxy-breaking weight alone, but from the focus the interesting character and faction interactions in the 41st millennium.  It ensures a shared experience through generations that can nonetheless be refreshed evermore by simply casting new focus or interpretation on parts of the universe.

 

By focusing on a ‘plot’, it invites this universe to simply become a serialized comic-book superhero drama, reliant on that next ‘hit’ of increasingly bombastic ‘big events’ that inevitably lose their impact and become increasingly nonsensical and desperate. Then, how long till the inevitable ‘reboot’ of the universe?

I hold 40k to a high standard because I felt it really (was) unique amongst the pantheon of sci-fi universes in both is themes and visuals, as well as its execution. All that has been done will never be undone – I accept that. But it doesn’t excuse it, and I will call it out while such complaints are still relevant.

 

TL;DR - I like cool models too, but not at the cost of cheapening and taking shortcuts with the lore and the setting’s founding themes and gravitas, when there are so many ways to ‘advance the plot’ if that is what fans really want.

[b1soul]

Late to this party...

 

@ Lord Marshal

 

"The 40k setting was never about progress, innovation, hope and was made clear just about everywhere, including the first few pages of the rulebooks. Cheering for that going away is like clamouring for Star Wars to lose the Light and the Dark Side, or wishing Lord of the Rings was about a bunch of morally ambiguous arseholes going on a selfish quest to claim Sauron's power for themselves."

 

Gathering Storm and Dark Imperium are nowhere as extreme as the hypotheticals you've raised.

 

I think GS provides meaningful story progression without forsaking the setting's core motifs. You might argue thst GS reigns in those motifs. I am personally fine with that.

 

At the end of the day, the 40K setting is about whatever GW decides it is about. I don't think GW will ever abandon Grimdark, but GW may try to strike a different balance now...compared to the status quo 10 or 20 years ago.

[BitsHammer]

I just want to chime in (with a much shorter post this time) regarding the claims that the Imperium never progressed since the Heresy.

 

Excuse me? The Imperium was working on recovering lost tech and making advancements all the time. We didn't see much of that actually hit the table (one of the advancements was literally a better combat knife), but a fair amount of stuff did. The Sisters Immolator lead to the Razorback, which lead to a number of variants. The Land Raider got several new variants. MkIV/MkV armour from the Heresy Era (MkVI being the "still in testing at the time") say improvements to MKVI (beakies for EVERYONE) and MkVII being widespread, and MkVIII starting to hit the scene (I almost think Cawl named his series MkX because he expected MkIX to be out before his project was rolling out for widespread deployment).

 

Even the bolter went through a number of variants over time as well.

 

And let's not even get into Centurions, Hunters, Stalkers, Thunderfire Cannons and other stuff that's cropped up outside of the Heresy Era.

 

Basically the Imperium's charge forward was slowed to a grind, but it was still pushing forward.

 

I mean, come on, we're not Eldar. ;)

[Guest]

I just want to chime in (with a much shorter post this time) regarding the claims that the Imperium never progressed since the Heresy.

 

Excuse me? The Imperium was working on recovering lost tech and making advancements all the time. We didn't see much of that actually hit the table (one of the advancements was literally a better combat knife), but a fair amount of stuff did. The Sisters Immolator lead to the Razorback, which lead to a number of variants. The Land Raider got several new variants. MkIV/MkV armour from the Heresy Era (MkVI being the "still in testing at the time") say improvements to MKVI (beakies for EVERYONE) and MkVII being widespread, and MkVIII starting to hit the scene (I almost think Cawl named his series MkX because he expected MkIX to be out before his project was rolling out for widespread deployment).

 

Even the bolter went through a number of variants over time as well.

 

And let's not even get into Centurions, Hunters, Stalkers, Thunderfire Cannons and other stuff that's cropped up outside of the Heresy Era.

 

Basically the Imperium's charge forward was slowed to a grind, but it was still pushing forward.

 

I mean, come on, we're not Eldar.

 

I think people mean the Imperium is more focused about recovering STC's as a means to progress. Cawls tanks are not STC based and therefore should be branded "heretical" in the traditional sense. Reading on Centurions people seem to ahve the same issue about their fluff in that there is no STC for them. As for the Hunter/stalkers I imagine that they are like the Predator Annihilator which the SW illegally modified the first time. AdMech then went and looked at the STC and found that the Lascannons may have been part of the design and authorized it. Thing is they have a existing base (rhino) that was then later found to be have another method. Cawls stuff just simply doesn't. Now if he has a secret STC that is just bad fluff and should have been mentioned.

[Kinstryfe]

Aesthetically, the Primaris are gorgeous, and I've loved painting and converting the handful I've painted. Realistically, I'll probably never field one on the table (but then again, half my models never hit the table). I'm seemingly in the minority though in not getting the huge levels of hate they're getting. None of the usual arguments I read over and over make sense me to based on the existing lore. Space marine were already the pinnacle of engineering, except it's not true because there were Custodes, Corax's raptors, and even the fluke giant Astartes that occurred naturally. Plus the old WD story of Fabius bile finding a swcret facility with a giant Astartes in it. So the scope for improvement was always there. Insistence that the tech never advanced isn't strictly accurate either, as Marines have developed MkVIII armour based on non-stc, heretical modifications to MkVII armour, but it's ok because it keeps their heads from being blown off by trapped bullets. Even stuff like the new grav tank can be seen as a tweak on Custodes tank technology (or speeder tech) being merged with the Astartes tank family (and I say family because it's been stated that some magos believe the tanks are designed thru a sort of mechanical DNA, and that other variants may eventually be deduced thru studying it). The only thing in the new lore that I find a bit Deus ex Machina is some of the scope behind Cawl. While all the fluff before makes it possible, even I'll admit that a 10k+ year old tech priest making so much of a difference by himself is a bit much. While better Astartes and better tech and even the Primarchs returning all has long precident in the fluff, they could have done Cawl better. Make Cawl the latest head of the project, with the originator of the project existing as a pseudo computer program overseeing that their directive is accomplished. Have the last Primarch who went missing (Vulkan?) be the one who started the project (more believable given his technical skills) with others that should he or any of his brothers return, they were to present themselves to the returned Primarch, complete with a holo-message that can only be unlocked with Primarch DNA explaining everything. The background as presented is too neatly Point A to Point B, which I think is what turns a lot of people off of it; it hits Star Wars levels of coincidence really quickly.

 

In summary: Better Marines, Better Tech, the Codex being open to interpretation, reinstating heresy era organization, all make sense to me and have precident in the fluff.

Space Elf magic waking up a nearly dead Primarch (ok...) who takes charge after being horrified by the state of the Imperium (expected) who happens to be the one Primarch who commissioned experiments from a tech priest 10,000 years ago (seems awfully convenient...) who is still alive (what?) and who is being setup as a tech heretic who's going to cause trouble (cliche!) is a little too much.

[DuskRaider]

As I said in the other thread, the models themselves, while limited in posablility, are lovely. I do wish they had included Chainswords or some sort of CCW so they could be completely proxied for truescale Marines, but that's where the hobby aspect of the game comes in. I even like the new Bolters, they look more realistic with their accessory rails and functional scopes. I don't even mind that Guilliman is back, he was the most logical of the Primarchs (other than perhaps Vulkan because Perpetual) or Cawl being 10,000 years old... that actually excited me, he's a relic from the Heresy. It all comes down to how they shoe horned it in with terribad fluff. That and the Repulsor is a HIDEOUS tank. Absolutely the worst model. It makes old Vect look like a Rembrandt and my buddy says assembling one is a nightmare too. 

 

I do hope GW fleshes Primaris out proper because as of now they're a bit... incomplete. It's annoying they don't have Primaris Terminators (no, the dudes with big guns aren't Terminators) and they suffer from the Death Guard character issue of no-options-itis. That just seems to be GW in 8th, though... no options at all for characters. Hopefully that does change in the future and we all get retroactive rules. 

[Master Commander Ajax]

I fall squarely into the 'Primaris Marines ruined 40k' category. I was going to write a post explaining why I felt this but I've already done so a number of times in other threads, as have others, and so instead I'm going to write a list of things I DO like about them.

• I like the new modular family of Boltguns (bolt pistol aside).
• I like the Inceptors (model wise), especially with their blast shields deployed. Of all the new models released for Primaris Marines, they are the only new unit I can say I like.
• Elements of the Redemptor Dreadnought. It's a large and intimidating model and I think that if the Castraferrum pattern Dreadnought were released today it would be a similar scale.
• The 'Easy to build' Primaris kits. They look completely at home alongside the traditional multipart kits and are cheaper.

I cant think of anything I like about them lore wise and none of the above goes anywhere near redeeming them in my eyes but there it is, some praise from a Primaris sceptic. 

[Trevak Dal]

I've said before, if I could straight trade my betrayal at calth boxes 1:1 for mark 4 marines for intercessors mpp kits, I'd do it, and run them as regular marines. Converting them to hold heavy weapons would be a fun project (I'm leaning heavily towards every squad with a Heavybolter/SAW with rocket launchers for devs) and making asm mark 10 marines would be cool too.

 

It's like they took all the things I did like about marines, reduced the things I disliked and made them bigger like Spartan 2s.

 

If the rules supported Primaris Marines being able to be equipped like tactical squads I'd totally be doing that.

[Huggtand]

Read the whole thread and this is one thing I see in many of this kind of posts lately, stated as a fact.

 

 

The 40k setting was never about progress, innovation, hope and was made clear just about everywhere, including the first few pages of the rulebooks. Cheering for that going away is like clamouring for Star Wars to lose the Light and the Dark Side, or wishing Lord of the Rings was about a bunch of morally ambiguous arseholes going on a selfish quest to claim Sauron's power for themselves.

 

The first 40k RT was not especially grimdark, more a combination of dystopian bureaucracy, cyberpunk, metal, satire and wackiness  The real grimdark came with the second and third edition where they took away more and more of the humor, and what I think made the 40k fun to play in, and replaced that with more and more doom, gloom and more doom for mankind. In the RT-era there was always the hopeful future where mankind is evolved and strong enough to withstand the dangers they face.

 

So to turn the quote around with tongue in cheek, I can say that the “new” lore have ruined my “real” old lore with a bunch of grimdark no hope rubbish 

 

 

As for the primaris I'm pretty neutral. I think its positive overall that the setting and plot is moving forward, and now it feels like a more living universe. The argument that Cawl outdid the Emperor does not fly. Big E could make Primarch and Custodes and the space marines was good enough for the job, not perfect. There was always room for improvement as shown with Corax raptors before the AL tainted the geneseed.

 

The negative for me and many others is more the clunky lore. Had they just had a little more lead time to hint and tell about the primaris I think it would have gone smoother.

 

Edited speling

[chamberlainskeksil]

The local warhammer related facebook group I'm part of grew from 80 to 225 people since 8th came out.  The tables at all the stores and events fill up so fast you have to show up before they open to line up.  At some non store events you have to buy tickets to ensure a table is booked for you. All the tournaments and narrative events are scrambling to find venues that are larger so they can allow more people to register.  Or they are looking for volunteers to run overflow events at other smaller venues.

 

I know of 2 individuals who actually expressed sufficient hatred or disappointment in the Primaris marines in a way that eventually led to their selling of all 40k they own.  Lots of people were like "they're not for me, but I like seeing them across the table" or "I prefer the original marines" or "I'm not jazzed about the fiction behind them" but the typical reaction has been very, very positive.

 

EDIT:  Just wanted to add, in the interest of fairness, that I'm sure there are those in the original 80 who have faded from active participation and even probably lose who have nothing but ire for anything primaris but simply refrained from talking about it online or in person in any way publicly enough to come to my attention.  

[Claws and Effect]

As far as the models and rules go, I really don't care one way or the other.

 

The lore, though? The lore is a great example of a model company that developed some new models and needed some sort of excuse to shove them into the game.

 

I'm sorry if you happen to like their backstory, but to me the whole "one guy developed all this stuff 10,000 years ago and it's been in cold storage ever since" is bat :cuss: stupid.

 

Especially when you consider the wealth of things that already existed that could have been used as a tie in.

 

- Corax tried to make better Astartes. Everyone remembers the mutated horror shows thst resulted, but tends to forget that the first batch he did before the Alpha Legion screwed with the geneseed was actually successful. They went on to become the Raptors chapter after the Second Founding.

 

- Asterion Moloc is described as exceptionally large for an Astartes, so is Tyberos the Red Wake, and the guy from the Exorcists. Why couldn't these characters be retconned into being secret Primaris prototypes?

 

- There are at least 2 chapters that whose description is basically "really big for Astartes", the Sons of Antaeus and the Storm Giants. Again, why couldn't these chapters be test beds for the Primaris organs?

 

My problem with the Primaris lore is that they came up with a barely plausible origin for them and completely ignored lore that already existed that they could have built on. It really seems like the people writing this lore are coming into it without having read anything at all about Space Marine lore. Because if they had, I'm sure someone would have picked up on the fact thst they could have built on what was already there.

 

Instead we get 40ks version of Dr Venture that supposedly created all of this new stuff under the AdMech's noses and didn't get executed as a heretek. Sorry, not buying it.

 

And the storyline that essentially has Guilliman running around the galaxy saving chapter after chapter from the brink of destruction with his new toys? Please.

 

It is downright insulting to fans of those chapters to tell them that they were helpless to avert their doom without Bob's intervention.

 

And the notion that everyone is just doing what Robby says without much dissent rubs me the wrong way. Leman Russ and Guilliman may have respected one another, but that doesn't mean the Space Wolves are going to be jumping to do what anyone but Russ says.

 

The bit in the Codex that says all the Codex compliant chapters aspire to be like the Ultramarines is the worst slap in the face of all of it. With a handful of sentences GW effectively stripped away half the identity of no fewer than 5 different First Founding chapters. They all have their own Primarchs to look up to, they don't need to seek Guilliman's approval. Just because their Primarch agreed to the Codex doesn't mean the chapter wants to be like the Ultras.

 

Those are just a few of the issues I have with the current direction of the lore.

[Guest]

There is also another Marine from SWs who actually pushed a Land Raider. Another example of a Primaris test run that could have been done.

[Claws and Effect]

Also, has no one else noticed that with most chapters following Guilliman's orders, it effectively gives him control over 3 or 4 Legions worth of Space Marines?

 

Since that was the very thing he wrote the Codex to prevent, that makes him a hypocrite of the highest order.

 

"No one shall ever again control the might of an Astartes Legion."*

 

 

*Except for me.

[Subtle Discord]

"Like grains of sand through the hourglass..."

 

Deep down I've always known, really, but this is the moment that I'm letting it sink in and just accept that... this hobby is a soap opera.

 

I've been building, painting, and playing since RT and I have a vested interest in this hobby on so many levels, so I'm not saying this to be condescending or vindictive in the slightest. Quite the opposite in fact, I mean it in more of an endearing 'I wouldn't have it any other way'. It's just recognition that I can't think of a time when there wasn't some kind of drama to get caught up in about how something is changing. I'm just going to double down and keep enjoying the hobby the way I want to, and enjoy the show when each inevitable shift or change comes along to entertain me.

[Panzer]

Also, has no one else noticed that with most chapters following Guilliman's orders, it effectively gives him control over 3 or 4 Legions worth of Space Marines?

 

Since that was the very thing he wrote the Codex to prevent, that makes him a hypocrite of the highest order.

 

"No one shall ever again control the might of an Astartes Legion."*

 

 

*Except for me.

To be fair it was a way different time when he wrote the Codex than it is now and he now is leading the whole IoM so he's also in a way different position than he used to be when he wrote the Codex.

[Blindhamster]

To be honest, I'm not overly excited about Primaris. I like them. Their look and their feel on the table is what I always wanted for Space Marines. I also don't mind how they got introduced in the fluff. Could it have been better? Maybe. Was it the worst thing ever? Not at all.

However the Primaris line still feels VERY unpolished and also very unsupported with most Stratagems focussing on units and weapons Primaris don't have access to. I'm looking forward to the future here and am happily waiting for more chapter specific Primaris unit and Codexes that support them better.

 

Tho I have to say I disagree about it being great that they got rid of the whole technological regression thing.

For one, they didn't really get rid of it since most of the AdMech are still opposing Cawl and only accept him due him being a big number now. Everything he did was only for the Primaris project and reviving Guilliman (which he only could pull off with the new Eldar god of death even). Nobody else in the Imperium got new toys nor is there any indication that Guardsmen will suddenly get something more advanced than the good old Lasrifles etc.

And then I also agree with Lord Marshal that the technological regression aspect is one of the big things people like about the 40k IoM. Without it 40k would lose a lot of its charme.

 

About the "GW is focussing on Imperium AGAIN" thing....eh, whatever. It's the "Chaos coming back with full force and the IoM has to do something to survive" storyline now. Of course most things will be for Imperium or Chaos for now. I'm not that impatient. Xenos stuff will come eventually and it will be just as awesome. Tons of potential there.

Most admech fully support cawl and actively work to get his favour, says so right in the codex.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

Also, has no one else noticed that with most chapters following Guilliman's orders, it effectively gives him control over 3 or 4 Legions worth of Space Marines?

 

Since that was the very thing he wrote the Codex to prevent, that makes him a hypocrite of the highest order.

 

"No one shall ever again control the might of an Astartes Legion."*

 

 

*Except for me.

To be fair it was a way different time when he wrote the Codex than it is now and he now is leading the whole IoM so he's also in a way different position than he used to be when he wrote the Codex.

But what's going to happen when his brothers start turning up? Is he going to expect them to simply fall in line and follow his orders?

 

Because that won't fly with Lion, Khan, Russ, or Corax. They might be okay with him bring nominally in charge, but not with him ordering their sons around. I mean, Corax had to be restrained from coming to blows with Horus over orders he didn't like. Lion has never let anyone boss his Legion around. Neither has Russ. And Khan wouldn't stand for it either.

 

Vulkan and Dorn (If he comes back) would be more amenable to Guilliman being the boss, but that's still half the loyal Primarchs that would resent someone they consider an equal at best telling them what to do.