+++ Recreating Khorne Daemonkin for 8th Edition +++

[Excessus]

Because of redundancy the old 7th ed thread has been closed, link saved here for posterity.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306021-blood-for-the-blood-god-daemonkin-community/

[Commissar K.]

Good to see the other being closed, it prefents the confusion that allready occured there too  

++New plan with the double-teaming Princes++

Wether or not this will be my actual list is still something I'll consider over again but I do think it has a lot of potency but there are enough parts I'm undecided upon. Especially on the part to add A'grath or not. I really love AP-4 but am not certain it's needed to have another model like this and it does soack up a lot of CP while we are at it. Nontheless though I think the costs are great deals all things considered and so is the AoE the Prince has with his Locus.

Detachment 1: Khorne Daemons 
- Daemon Prince (general, 8" bubble trait, Skullreaver) with Daemonic Axe
- Daemon Prince (maby A'grath?) with Daemonic Sword
- 20 Bloodletters I&I
- 20 Bloodletters I&I
- 20 Bloodletters I&I

Detachment 2: Khorne World Eaters 
- Khârn 
- Random dude?
- 8 Berzerkers CA,PF&I 
- 8 Berzerkers CA,PF&I 
- 8 Berzerkers CA,PF&I 
- Rhino 2x CombiB
- Rhino 2x CombiB
- Rhino 2x CombiB
- 2 Dakkabrutes? 

CP 9, but a ton of it will flow into Daemon dropping. As before I'm uncertain if we need to have a second Daemon Prince in there and how this synergizes with the rest of the army and the likes...

Still have to do some calculations, perhaps we can even push in some Predators which visually speaking would be nice and adds some cool fire support also. Alternatively we could even look into a Heldrake maby? As another distraction piece?

In any case I'm looking forward to more KDK ideas. I think there is enough merit for Khorne with the mix and certainly presents something scary enough to compete with the competitive meta. Not saying we're bound to win tournaments with this Khornate approach but I do think there is sufficient room to slaughter stuff, have a great game and keep our opponents sharp. Which in the end is all that matters.

Thoughts are very welcome!

Cheers,
 

[Sagentus]

Maybe put a DA in for the 2nd HQ choice for the WE. I would swap the dakka brutes out for Predators so you have the fire supprt. 

 

How did the soul grinder fare in the new codex? is its capabilities in close combate worth the points? could always DS one if you have any spare CP 

[Commissar K.]

Maybe put a DA in for the 2nd HQ choice for the WE. I would swap the dakka brutes out for Predators so you have the fire supprt. 

 

How did the soul grinder fare in the new codex? is its capabilities in close combate worth the points? could always DS one if you have any spare CP 

Yeah that HQ choice seems good. Not at home right now so I still have to do some calculations. I'm uncertain two Predators would fit but at the same time I'm not completely certain on the second Daemon Prince either. I want it but at the same time I also want Bloodletter bombs and quite frankly I think their duality in offensive approach might be better. So it's totally possible to downgrade the second Prince to Karanak again for some Psycic defence. Though it could offcourse be argued wether or not that is needed at all...

 

The Soulgrinder is another option I suppose, anything at this point added indeed only has to have a distraction role really... It's still kind of expensive I feel though and it doesn't gain nearly as much from being deep striked... BS still 4+, can't increase that 2D6 charge with a forced 9" away from opponents and doesn't have a Locus either... But perhaps I'm missing something, it does hit reasonably hard but that WS/BS4+ without any help from CSM Stratagems (the one for Daemon Engines) because he doesn't have a Legion Keyword don't make it jump out as all to viable for me...

 

I guess I'd rather spend those twohundererd and thirthyfive points elsehwere. Another Daemon prince for example or yeah even more Bloodletters. Which brings it to the point again, maby 80 Bloodletters is the stronger route to go anyway. 

[Sagentus]

Its a shame the Soul grinder doesnt benefit from the locus and I think its strange it doesnt. Its sad when cool models dont get any decent rules and dont get played. 

 

I really like the idea of 2 DP or DP and Karanak, especially with all the psyker armies about. 

 

I can see the apeal to having more bloodletters, but I personally dont want to be a one dimentional army. I love khorne and getting stuck in killing stuff, but there is a lot to be said for having a back up or support incase the roll's dont go your way. So preds', brutes or havocs 

 

Its a shame the csm codex doesnt support bloodcrushers or jugger lord 

[Commissar K.]

Well the Soulgrinder can technically benifit a little but it just doesnt appeal to me for all costs included.

 

I think there is room for ranged support but the fact is that we dont have a lot of it with Khorne or World Eater Keyword and really support the plan well.

 

While its certainly one demensional, it happens when most CP is spend ;)

[Khornestar]

I ran 3 renegade basilisks as fire support for my CSM/daemon elements... and was horribly disappointed. I failed to inflict a single wound over the two turns the game lasted. Poor rolls for the number of shots had something to do with it, but the inability to re-roll the way loyalists can seriously reduces their effectiveness. My opponent managed to miraculously make the few saves he needed to make, so that’s a factor too.

 

Only one game, can’t establish a trend, but ugh... pathetic.

[Sagentus]

I suppose its understandable we dont have the ranged support as we are meant to be a close combat army, from a fluff point. 

 

Like you say if we spend the CP we can almost garantee we get into combat. 

 

@Jugger - sorry to hear you had such a bad game. Also i went through you thread today and you have some wicked models, shame the blood crushers arent valid atm :( 

 

I think ill stick with havocs (2 squads, 4 x HB and 4 x ML) for support atm, until i can get some preds. Or i could go for brutes ... defo need another DP model though  

[Khornestar]

Thanks, Sagentus! In a few months, once I’m done with school and have my degree/professional license, I’ll hopefully get back to working on them.

[Commissar K.]

Yeah it really depends on what you want to do. Because I agree, it is more fun to mix different units, have some fire support and basically not descent into full melee madness... Or at least I get why some want to go this route instead of something you could also play with say Age of Sigmar. But as someone who plays and mixes mortals and daemons in both systems I do think there is a ton of potential here. For sure 20 Bloodletters on 32mm bases thake up a lot of space but in line with the narrative striking out of nowhere with such a crushing force that an opponent doesn't even know what's happening before he lost his head is very fitting with Khorne's armies.

So with that sketch up fleshed out a little more I think I will give something like this a go as soon as Ive catched up with my Bloodletter count and am ready for the third unit of Berzerkers.

++ Detachment 1, Khorne Daemons, 2HQ 3TR, 3CP ++
- Daemon Prince, general, 8" AoE, Skullreaver - 156
- Karanak - 70
- 20 Bloodletters, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos - 165
- 20 Bloodletters, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos - 165
- 20 Bloodletters, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos - 165

++ Detachment 2, World Eaters, 2HQ 3TR, 3CP ++
- Khârn - 160
- Dark Apostle, Power Maul, Bolt Pistol - 78
- 8 Berzerkers, Chain Axes (7), Power Fist, Icon of Wrath - 157
- 8 Berzerkers, Chain Axes (7), Power Fist, Icon of Wrath - 157
- 8 Berzerkers, Chain Axes (7), Power Fist, Icon of Wrath - 157
- Rhino, 2 Combi-bolters - 74
- Rhino, 2 Combi-bolters - 74
- Rhino, 2 Combi-bolters - 74

With the above template I'd say there is still a lot of room for personal approaches because there are 348 points left, which easily can be seen as 350 the moment you would 'downgrade' the Apostle to an Exalted Champion. 

Those rough 350 points can convert themself to double Predator (World Eater, no massive benifit but if you have Khârn in between them they will at least have full re-rolls and good melee protection). Alternatively double Dakkabrute can be added with roughly 50 points that could be used to upgrade Karanak to another prince whilst downgrading the Dark Apostle. However I think there is also more than sufficient room for World Eater Havocs which again would like to hang with Khârn too. Though offcourse Khârn ideally is also part of the second wave.

As before I think there is quite some competitive merrit to this list. I say this largely because I feel every unit here serves a function and is capable of handling a wide range of targets and hurt it. I must say, I wished for Bloodletters to be great and this wish was truely fufilled with options to charge 3d6". So however those last points are used, it can certainly also be more of the same, adding Bloodletters and Berzerkers is not only adding backbone it's also adding teeth.

I hope this idea or template will help you guys give some direction also. More good ideas are certainly welcome! What is easy to miss is how well Khorne accumulates in this edition and not so much in buffing each other but by being an extremely strong prospect in all it's units. It's easy to miss that Bloodletter attack wound rolls of 6+ lead to 2 damage, or how Berzerker Champions punch with Strenght 10 power fists but it's strong and obliterates anything that stands in it's path.

Blood for the Bloodgod! 

[Sagentus]

Its not to dissimilar to how i was looking at the back bone of the khorne/daemon load out. But you most certainly are right and i think its a game of mixing it up with those final 350pnts to figure what works best for the army/you.

 

Hopefully things will change a bit more when the khorne csm codex is released. Would love to see termies a more viable option and i hope the jugger lord makes a return as they always looks great on the field

 

@jugger - look forward to seeing more of your army when you have the time to build/paimt again. Would really like to see a mini tutorial on how you do the trim with gs on your models. It gives them much more character

[Cheex]

@Commissar K, is there any particular reason for the 8" AoE warlord trait? The daemon prince already has a 6" version of the aura (and it doesn't require the charge to work), so other than an extra couple of inches it seems a bit redundant. If you're worried about range, 6" should be plenty even on the turn they drop.

[Commissar K.]

@Commissar K, is there any particular reason for the 8" AoE warlord trait? The daemon prince already has a 6" version of the aura (and it doesn't require the charge to work), so other than an extra couple of inches it seems a bit redundant. If you're worried about range, 6" should be plenty even on the turn they drop.

Yeah... You can pretty much choose w/e the whole DP isn't even that relevant to the whole plan but Im sure an additional Strenght or Attack can also be used to your advantage. 

The one reason why it's on there now has to do with possible lack of deep striking spaces and the 8" bubble allowing for a little bit more Bloodletter efficiency if you give the unit a tail that leads into the DP.

 

The DP can't boost his own charge range and if the Bloodletters are the only units that can I will say I'd always prioritize them. As their 3d6" charges mean they have a whole lot more room to be set up as the average of 3d6 rolls more often leads to 11" charge options instead of 9" being difficult to make...

Long story short, it doesn't really matter to me. Just like filling that second HQ choice in the World Eater Detachment, Khârn matters and the goon that fills up the second HQ slot doesn't really. In fact that choice matters much less as say adding Karanak does.

 

One thing I think all Khorne players should agree upon is that the true power of these KDK like armies comes from Bloodletters and Berzerkers. Adding characters is nice, adding more fire support is optional but in pure functionality more Bloodletters and Berzerkers cause larger problems to opponents. They arn't hard to kill but not subject to weakness from anti-tank shots. They do have to pass Morale tests and such but if you have multiple waves of these units even this will catch up with opponents.

 

To me this principle is basically reversed AM power play. Where we only bubble-wrap/protect characters and swarm opponents to overcome them in melee. This is our strongest asset and most difficult asset to awnser. 

 

 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I suppose its understandable we dont have the ranged support as we are meant to be a close combat army, from a fluff point. 

 

Like you say if we spend the CP we can almost garantee we get into combat. 

 

@Jugger - sorry to hear you had such a bad game. Also i went through you thread today and you have some wicked models, shame the blood crushers arent valid atm

 

I think ill stick with havocs (2 squads, 4 x HB and 4 x ML) for support atm, until i can get some preds. Or i could go for brutes ... defo need another DP model though  

Spartan is your ranged support

 

-Commissar K,

 

I would swap the Dark Apostle out for a Exalted Champ. The reroll to wound is pretty nice for Zerkers. Also, I've really found not having all axes in a squad very beneficial. The weight for attacks from having chain swords makes them worth it. 

[Commissar K.]

Seems like an idea, I personally have enjoyed the combo of Chainsword and Chainaxe, so that's really just best of both worlds minus the pistols. Still a brickton of attacks but I dont feel like skipping out on that AP especially against MEQ, Vehichles and 2+ saves it makes all the difference. At the same time I'm still converting away at it anyway so it will stay ;) 

Do agree that the re-rolls to wound will likely be the most benificial but as mentioned in the World Eater topic Ive found squads of zerkers working fine as is allready. Funny enough they will be the clean up crew if all goes as expected with the Bloodletters. Meaning they will be send into the Hordes and hunt left overs/Flyers.

Cheers,

[Khornestar]

I also think the double-striking power fists cannot be underestimated. We can spam many low-mid strength attacks with the berzerkers themselves, but even with lords and daemon princes (short of a Skullreaver-armed Daemon Prince), S10 is lacking. I'm sure there are arguments to be made about trade-offs and such, but I never skip 'em. A Dark Apostle guarantees that the first round of swings will hit on 3+, as well, instead of only 4+.

[Commissar K.]

Can only agree with that and am pretty sure that for 2018 my list wont go without Zerker Rhino's 3x and Bloodletters 3x. The only fear that remains is that I can see Bloodletters getting more expensive but maby also... not... I mean this edition is quite unpredictable for me when it's about changes.

All in all I love the Berzerkers and Bloodletters. Think there is something to be said for the second 'goon' HQ but ultimately it isn't the biggest game changer ;). Especially for us the more I think about it the more points I'd rather invest in more Berzerkers and Bloodletters.

Having said that there is more to it as those two. Because we simply are blessed with great Stratagems and Artefacts in Codex Chaos Daemons. 
- Banner of Blood remains amazing, I had a dude on Fb tell me that you can only use it once but I don't think that's the intention of any of the Banners...
- Frentic Bloodlust can guarantee the kills, as with the pile in the additional fight can really be important for larger units.
- Denizins of the Warp is the real deal though. 

With sufficient zerkers and letters I even think we can fit in a functional Bloodthirster. Armour of Scorn is still pretty great for them. Perhaps not to guarantee their cost but hey, we have the points left. Realistically though I still think Id thake the DP with an Artefact over the BT first. Because exactly as Juggernaut said, we do want some additional high S attacks and ideally it comes cheap (lucky for us it does).

Lastly I think Skarbrand is a contender for great use aswell. Expensive at 360 but his attacks go up instead of down plus it's a ton of damage output. The adding of attacks to anyone, including Berzerkers and stuff also can't be underestimated. It's just a shame Flyers arn't perse stuck with him anymore.

[Khornestar]

Yep, agreed with Skarbrand. He's a threat until he's dead. A ragethirster can be tolerated with a few wounds left; still a threat, but super swingy so unlikely to do much. 

 

With 30 bloodletters, berzerkers (AND dreadclaws, for me), and a daemon prince, there's already some target priority stuff to deal with. Keep Skarbrand back until the moment is right, and then unleash hell! Though, there is something to be said for getting him in turn 1 to prevent fallbacks... if he makes his charge.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Yep, agreed with Skarbrand. He's a threat until he's dead. A ragethirster can be tolerated with a few wounds left; still a threat, but super swingy so unlikely to do much. 

 

With 30 bloodletters, berzerkers (AND dreadclaws, for me), and a daemon prince, there's already some target priority stuff to deal with. Keep Skarbrand back until the moment is right, and then unleash hell! Though, there is something to be said for getting him in turn 1 to prevent fallbacks... if he makes his charge.

 

Oooo that does sound good and is something I haven't thought about because I don't have a Skarbrand model. I need to recheck his stats because the first time I glanced over him it didn't seem like there was too much of a difference between him and a regular Thirster.

 

I really like having a Thirster on the table because they normally draw fire away from my Spartan. Maybe Skarbrand would be an even better distraction/new tool for my lists. 

[Khornestar]

I think it's been mentioned, but Skarbrand actually gains attacks when he loses wounds and "degrades," as opposed to the generic Bloodthirsters (all 3 varieties) that lose attacks. His weapon skill does degrade, but with more chances to hit, he should still splatter some fools.

[Sgt. Blank]

I enjoyed reading through this thread - good discussion here. Like others, I was pretty disappointed to see Daemonkin get left behind in 7th and I am encouraged to see the possibility of returning to a mix of daemons and CSM.

 

It may be my local meta only, but I've been a lot more successful with Predators to back my Berzerkers and I agree that fitting some (several?) in is worth considering, especially if you're using the Worldeaters legion trait and otherwise lack true first turn threats.

 

Daemons seem to offer a new first turn threat but one question I had after going through the thread is that, if we expect the Berzerkers and Bloodletters to do most of the work, isn't it more economical to squeeze more of those units in and reduce spending on HQs? I am probably doing things wrong, but I've found my Daemon Prince gets one charge off and then gets shot to pieces and for the same points, I could have gotten two other HQs that buff the Berzerkers and I'm wondering if the same is true for Daemons.

[Commissar K.]

 

Daemons seem to offer a new first turn threat but one question I had after going through the thread is that, if we expect the Berzerkers and Bloodletters to do most of the work, isn't it more economical to squeeze more of those units in and reduce spending on HQs? I am probably doing things wrong, but I've found my Daemon Prince gets one charge off and then gets shot to pieces and for the same points, I could have gotten two other HQs that buff the Berzerkers and I'm wondering if the same is true for Daemons.

That has been my plan so far. The thing really is that the Daemon Prince without wings and Skullreaver still is relatively budget. Plus Khârn and that general Daemon Prince are around 160 points and I can't say I don't find them worth that. Getting shot to pieces is a scenario but the advantage both Daemon Prince and Khârn still have is that even at 1 wound left their output doesn't become sloppy.

 

In general I think we have some amazing Troop choices for 'KDK' and good cheap HQ but at the same time the Bloodmaster is the true cheap alternative and while the Locus is fine I don't think he's potent enough to spend CP on to deep strike him. At least with the DP you can still choose your target. At the same time the Bloodmaster is no Psyker and while he can hit decently well I also believe that Karanak is still the better choice.

The Skullmaster on Juggernaut and Skulltaker seem like good choices too but again a wingless DP isn't that far removed from their cost and brings high S output again. 

 

But overall I agree, I wouldn't go too HQ cost heavy but in the above I also don't think I went that route. 

(For Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch the Heralds are all a whole lot more relevant, Psykers for Slaanesh and Tzeentch and the Nurgle variant for boosting Daemonic Engine S on the flamer drones...)

[Commissar K.]

 

 

I meant battle scribe. Battle clinic is an old eve online tool lol. I agree with keeping it cheap. If we go for the double dp, could swap the defiler out for skulltaker and a herald. Then have skulltaker, herald and karanak in a supreme command detachment. Extra 1 CP for little adition. Let me know what you think in the daemonkin topic 

 

 

I meant battle scribe. Battle clinic is an old eve online tool lol. I agree with keeping it cheap. If we go for the double dp, could swap the defiler out for skulltaker and a herald. Then have skulltaker, herald and karanak in a supreme command detachment. Extra 1 CP for little adition. Let me know what you think in the daemonkin topic 

[Commissar K.]

So with the above template still in mind I decided to flesh out the whole plan and persue some cool Khorne numbers altogether. The list seems very basic and it is but with the previously mentioned 1K test of deep striking some Bloodletters with the Banner of Blood I can only say that I see quite some potential in the list. It's still very much Khorne Daemonkin, it's still very much Khorne and quite frankly I have never been a mono-player if I didn't have to :) 

- Battle-forged, Khorne or Chaos, your choice!
- 9 Command Points
- 2000/2000 Points
- Two Battalion Detachments
- Loads of mad fun!

Detachment 1: Khorne Daemons

• Daemon Prince with Wings, Hellforged Sword, Malefic Talons***
• Daemon Prince of Chaos, Daemonic Axe, Malefic Talons*
• Karanak
• 20x Bloodletters, Instrument, Icon**
• 20x Bloodletters, Instrument, Icon**
• 20x Bloodletters, Instrument, Icon**
• 20x Bloodletters, Instrument, Icon**

Detachment 2: World Eaters

• Khârn the Betrayer
• Dark Apostle, Power Maul, Combi-plasma
• 8x Berzerkers, Chainaxe and Chainsword, Power Fist, Icon of Vengeance
• 8x Berzerkers, Chainaxe and Chainsword, Power Fist, Icon of Vengeance
• 8x Berzerkers, Chainaxe and Chainsword, Power Fist, Icon of Vengeance
• Chaos Rhino, Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter
• Chaos Rhino, Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter
• Chaos Rhino, Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter

So a small rundown of the *-options:
* Deep strike with Denizens of the Warp and most often the Warlord with Skullreaver, as discussed above, the Warlord Trait isn't massively relevant but the Prince stays wing-less so you can use Denizens of the Warp for 1 CP instead of 2 due to Power Rating.
** Deep strike with Denizens of the Warp and upgraded with Banner of Blood. This is the first strike of the force, tasked to deal with key priority targets. Lets see if your opponent can handle 80 Bloodletters or not. 
*** Secondary Daemon Prince that will glide between the Rhino's and such. If your opponent has deployed certain units close enough the need for a 4th Blood Banner is much less required which in turn allows you to spend the last CP point (if you want to, but I reckon you'll want to) in upgrading the Hellforged Sword to A'rgath, King of Blades. This way we present quite a lot of heavy hitters.

The set up otherwise is rather simple, all World Eaters are in Rhino's, Karanak walks along them which counts as having ten units on table because the winged Daemon Prince will not deep strike due to CP being likely 'spend'. It indeed aims to deliver the first strike and basically acts like a massive execution blow to the face in the first turn. Which drives the excitement levels up a notch, at least in my opinion.

In addition I do think there are quite some possible variants to the list. One could for example consider including Skarband or other big pieces but it will either way cut into Bloodletter or Berzerker count. What I think is the biggest strenght next to the deep striking is the model count going over a hundered which I think will be quite helpful for Objective purposes.

Lastly against oppossing Hordes with low shooting, e.g. Tyranids or Orks much of the deep strike plans can be skipped in order to deploy the force as is and basically spend CP in double-fighting with Bloodletters. Though the consideration to deep strike both Daemon Princes should likely remain for assassination purposes.

Cheers,

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Commissar, how different do you think your list would play if you dropped the Rhinos in favor of Dreadclaws?