+++ Recreating Khorne Daemonkin for 8th Edition +++

[Xorriath]

8th edition changed the game quite substantially.Having a big board presence and a strong first strike carries very high importance in both casual and competitive games.It may not seem like so,but 3 Heldrakes offer both board presence and alpha strike.Their bases are pretty big and they get into your opponent's face turn 1 with a pretty potent weapon.3x Baleflamer can potentially take out T6 or below targets turn 1.There are several targets in that area like Hydras,Basilisks,Heavy Destroyers and so on.They also come with similar utility to rhinos.Charging them in before bloodletters/berserkers can be very beneficial because of their high toughness and good armour/invul save.

I may be wrong about this,but I think they also benefit from Heralds of Khorne(which makes them S8),and re roll hit rolls of 1 from Daemon Prince.

[Commissar K.]

Yep that's pretty much all correct, Khorne Daemons (Heldrake included) also benifits from the Daemon Prince and all that.
The only anti-synergy that can occur there is that if you thake Heldrakes near Skarband they might get stuck and we don't want that :P 

Skarband is basically a Khornate Katamari:

[Xorriath]

How do you guys deal with the situation in which an enemy unit fully occupies a floor in an upper level of a ruin ?I know it is a somewhat a cheesy tactic that renders close combat units useless because they cannot charge an upper floor when it is fully occupied,but it is totally by the book.

[Commissar K.]

How do you guys deal with the situation in which an enemy unit fully occupies a floor in an upper level of a ruin ?I know it is a somewhat a cheesy tactic that renders close combat units useless because they cannot charge an upper floor when it is fully occupied,but it is totally by the book.

I have to say it hasn't occured to me in a game yet. But ignoring it as much as possible to focus on Objectives would be my choice...

Now having said that this can offcourse be very difficult to do, depending on how large that ruin is and what exactly is in it...

 

Did something like that actually occur to you? In addition I think too large buildings arn't ideally played with also for this very same reason. E.g. I have no plan for dealing with 10 combi plasma terminators if they somehow are occupying a building completely at a relevant part of the table.

 

Having said this yeah, shooting can be an issue then. But I think Orks and Nids could end up in a similar strange scenario. 

[Xorriath]

Thankfully it did not happen to me , but I have seen situations in which this happened to people and seemed pretty unfair considering that mele combat is not the best strategy to employ in an 8th  edition army(most armies are shooting oriented with very few if any close combat oriented units).My point is that GW should address this situation at some point,because depending on the unit count it is not actually very difficult to fully occupy an upper floor in a ruin.I like the idea of using terrain to your advantage,but that type of situation creates very binary scenarios.Imagine 1 floor occupied by 3 devastor squads with lascannons.The ruin can be at the very back of their deployment zone,but they should be able to pretty much shoot anything with their 48'' range weapons.I know situation like this are not of common occurrence ,but in my opinion the simple fact that they may happen  at some point depending on the map and deployment zones should not be overlooked.It creates unbalanced situations for an army type that is not even at the top .

"The red murderous tide of Khorne is coming for our skulls!Quickly to the top tower and leave no empty space so that they cannot get to us!".A Skullreaver Daemon Prince can tear through the most potent form of material(ap -4),why should he have problems with knocking a stone ruin down ?

[CrystalSeer]

In this case, at least with ruins, wobbly model would be in effect, as you can roll the distance but not have a physical space to safely place the model. If its a building, you attack the building.

 

" Q: Can Bikes, Super-heavy Walkers, Walkers, and Monstrous Creatures move and/or assault units on the higher levels of ruins? A: Yes. For simplicity and ease of play, the core game rules allow most models to climb any piece of scenery. Use the ‘Wobbly Model Syndrome’ rule if it is not possible to place the model in the position it is meant to be occupying. If you wish, you may want to say that models are only allowed to move to places that they could reach ‘in real life’, but you will need to apply a certain amount of common sense and discretion in order to make such a rule work well.. "

 

- Main Rule Book FAQ

[Commissar K.]

Well yeah and the miniature game emulation only allows for so much. I havn't seen it happen so far in games yet where it resulted into a problem. It could certainly occur, it could certainly lead to an issue in a competitive tournament scene if both players arn't capable to resolve it. But it is what it is. As said I think more melee orientated armies could theoretically end up in such a scenario but luckily it isn't extremely likely.

But the theory certainly doesn't lead me to believe that KDK isn't a potent army because such scenario's excist. Will pick up my second Daemon Prince soon. Funny to finally have found a reason to magnetize a Daemon Prince too :) 

[Xorriath]

In this case, at least with ruins, wobbly model would be in effect, as you can roll the distance but not have a physical space to safely place the model. If its a building, you attack the building.

 

" Q: Can Bikes, Super-heavy Walkers, Walkers, and Monstrous Creatures move and/or assault units on the higher levels of ruins? A: Yes. For simplicity and ease of play, the core game rules allow most models to climb any piece of scenery. Use the ‘Wobbly Model Syndrome’ rule if it is not possible to place the model in the position it is meant to be occupying. If you wish, you may want to say that models are only allowed to move to places that they could reach ‘in real life’, but you will need to apply a certain amount of common sense and discretion in order to make such a rule work well.. "

 

- Main Rule Book FAQ

So if this ever happens the attacker can roll the distance(after ow ofc) and if it enough the players should come to an agreement that the 2 units are now engaged in combat using the "Wobbly Model Syndrome"?That sounds pretty reasonable to me.I have seen that in some  battle reports ,but at that time I thought that it was some kind of "house rule".

[Xorriath]

I think there is a change they might have updated the main rule book FAQ,I tried to find the rule that lets non infantry models(that do not have the fly keyword either) climb upper levels of a ruin and there was none.

[CrystalSeer]

Its not a specific exemption; the only units that can't go to the second floor of Ruins are Monsters and Vehicles unless they have the Fly keyword. Everyone else is allowed by default.

 

And I pulled that quote from the latest FAQ published on the GW page.

[CrystalSeer]

Has anyone had success running large units of bloodcrushers? I'm looking really hard at running 8 from the warp with the banner, Seems like it would be a really good unit to soak overwatch and tie the enemy up while the rest of your army advanced. They have a ton of attacks at high strength, and the entire unit could fight again if you combi-charged and didn't do enough damage.

 

The only thing I don't like about them is the point cost. But if it swings entire games in your favor...

[Khornestar]

I'd say for sure they're worth using. Whatever, I don't want to get hung up on competitive units. Bloodcrushers are one of the coolest units/models in the game, and they're still gonna put in some work. Charge some loyalists and chop 'em up. 

 

Bring a Skullmaster with them and they'll be S7 on the charge along with the juggernauts. That ain't too shabby.

[Rat_Punter]

I run a 12 strong unit, banner and instrument. Deepstriking, 3d6 charge and a double fight. Wins games so brutally! And the imagery of a seething wall of hellish cavalry ripping through the veil of reality is epic! Try it, you'll love it! (Unless your only targets are ratling or scout walls!) Then cry!

[Commissar K.]

Bloodcrushers are a totally cool unit to use. I prefer Bloodletters over them but this isn't to say Bloodletters on Juggernauts don't work ;) 

Go and give them a try! Especially if you don't feel like make a persue of including 60+ Bloodletters. They come in the start collecting also so anyone starting or getting into these combined Khorne army lists should certainly give them a try.

The real effort I made with the Bloodletter heavy lists is to see/show that Khorne can now make a competitive showing (at least in my opinion). So if the aim is to win that tournament/game then I do think going heavy on Denizens of the Warp and Blood Banners can get us there.

As others have said there is nothing going against them other than:
A. Not being a Troop choice (for Battalion Detachments)
B. Costs

If you'd play them without Stratagems the choice would be completely yours/up to you/fair ;) 

[CrystalSeer]

Fair enough. For me, the intention is to make a list that is fun to play. Getting blown off the table before making assault hardly seems worth the time of driving to the flgs and setting up, but neither does maxing bloodletters and heralds to the exclusion of the rest of said list. I also tend to avoid the itc crowd for this reason.

 

When I look at the list, what I'm really looking for is a balance that allows me to use the awesome models from the khorne range to take apart an enemy.

 

Bloodthirsters tearing up buildings and vehicles sound awesome. Bloodcrushers charging the enemy line sound awesome. Bloodletters tearing up infantry sound like a great coup de gras. Hell, I can even get on board with our silly cannon.

 

I just find the points on bloodcrushers and bloodthirsters really hard to justify in a meta where they are likely to be shot down before doing much. I'd love to add them, but I'm feeling out how much you need of each to hit that sweet spot where they complement each other.

 

PS. It also doesn't help that I'm fitting in World Eaters

[Khornestar]

The cost is a definite problem. I haven’t used the bloodcrushers or Bloodthirsters this edition yet, but when I’m writing lists I can’t help but factor in the cost sometimes.

The 2000 point standard game (if there is such a thing as standard) is sort of a trap, because it allows us to take our big bad units, but they’re so overcosted the enemy easily can field what it takes to kill them, often for less than the cost of our choppy friends. Maybe smaller games are the answer, maybe it’s filling out the rest of the list with cheaper stuff like a Renegades detachments for CP, I’m really not sure. I just know I want to use both units and rip some fools apart.

Perhaps choice of opponent or a gentleman’s agreement to play with narrative lists from time to time is an appropriate solution. Or just accept the strong possibility of defeat, play the game while drinking beer, and have fun while making the best of it.

 

Edit: :cuss typos!

[Commissar K.]

Yeah Ive generally found that if I just agree with my opponent on 9 CP, thake whatever, a lot of fun is kept in the game and diversity of models is absolutely part of that.
In terms of goodness/coolness I certainly recommend Skarbrand over a regular Bloodthirster. Both models are awesome but there is just something flavourful about Skarband in 40K which I wish he had in AoS. The all out madness he brings to both games is tons of fun though! At the same time, again Bloodcrushers arn't bad.

Lastly, I think most fans of Khorne gear towards World Eaters regardless too. I sure do and I'm not salty about it. Though yes, if the intend is to absolutely crush your opponents it could very well be that Alpha Legion is better. At the same time though bringing a bucket of Bloodletters does the trick well too.

[CrystalSeer]

I'm thinking the answer will likely be a khorne brigade with a daemons formation. A good chunk of CP without limiting too many of my options.

[Commissar K.]

I'm thinking the answer will likely be a khorne brigade with a daemons formation. A good chunk of CP without limiting too many of my options.

I cant recommend anything different for Khorne fans that want to join a competitive event or generally want to go deeper as a transport + Berzerker plan. The latter can work well, but what Ive found is that for competitive purposes transport costs weigh lists down and can make it very difficult to form any presence against ranged heavy lists who understand that removing the Rhino's/Spartan leads to the World Eater Berzerkers arriving way too late and too thinned down.

 

Next to Denizens of the Warp, Blood Banner is arguably the best Stratagem in the book. It's exclusive to us and so I feel inclined to use it to it's maximum potential. Likewise, Skullreaver is easily the best Artefact in the book, because of that I can't recommend using a Daemon Prince of Khorne for that purpose enough.

 

Speaking of which, I'm working on said Daemon Prince! I didnt want to get the plastic model but couldn't find a way to obtain the good old 40K one so I'm in the middle of a conversion :P 

[CrystalSeer]

My daemon princes are all converted from the big (crypt ghouls?) Kit using head swaps from bloodletters. Works really well and I made 3 for under $50.

 

So, with all this said, I'm planning on running somewhere between 40-60 bloodletters. How many units are required to hit target saturation. I figure bloodcrushers can nuke bubble wrap, then 3 units gets you 5-6 targets before specialists go to town.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I'm thinking the answer will likely be a khorne brigade with a daemons formation. A good chunk of CP without limiting too many of my options.

A Khorne Brigade with a Daemons formation? How would you even be able to fit all of that into a 2k point list? I can't design an effective list <2k and fulfill all the requirements for a Brigade.

[CrystalSeer]

Cultists, spawn, and skullcannons. All cheap choices easy to spam. Hq can be 75pts per as well.

 

I'll post a list once I draft it fully. The daemon formation will likely just be supreme Command to get strategems, relic, and loci.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Cultists, spawn, and skullcannons. All cheap choices easy to spam. Hq can be 75pts per as well.

 

I'll post a list once I draft it fully. The daemon formation will likely just be supreme Command to get strategems, relic, and loci.

 

Are you suggesting a mixed "Khorne" Detachment with no traits? I guess Zerkers having one less attack is mitigable with adequate re-roll auras. I still think it gets expensive real quick and effectiveness will begin to diminish within the 2k cap. 

[Commissar K.]

I think its much easier to fufill three Battalion Detachments (2 hq/3 troops) but play however you want to!

[CrystalSeer]

I've got a list doing that too, but it ends up being extremely pricy on hqs.

 

The idea is to get all the key units in the brigade and just grab a detachment for strategems. I may not be able to make it work without dropping some of my berserkers though. I'll try and draft a list tonight and see where it goes.