+++ Recreating Khorne Daemonkin for 8th Edition +++

[Xorriath]

Would KDK ever ally with Renegades and Heretics or Nurgle lore wise ?Mortarion was used as distraction carnifex in a World Eaters list that was based around Berserkers in Rhinos and scored a pretty good position in a recent tourney.It is a shame most Khorne themed LoWs are so expenssive....(btw this is Xoriath,I was unable to recover my account so I had to create a new one)

[Rat_Punter]

 

1. Can only take relics from the codex from which your warlord is taken. Thus either AOBF or Armour of Skhorne.

 

You can use both with the relic stratagem. It allows you to take one additional relic, and 1 is additional to 0 ;)

 

That said, IMHO the axe is a waste of a CP.

 

Yes but you can only access relics from the codex of your warlord. Regardless of the number of times you play the relic strat. Hence, armour, skullreaver and sword is viable. But u cant take AOBF as thats not in your warlords book.

[CrystalSeer]

 

 

1. Can only take relics from the codex from which your warlord is taken. Thus either AOBF or Armour of Skhorne.

 

You can use both with the relic stratagem. It allows you to take one additional relic, and 1 is additional to 0 ;)

 

That said, IMHO the axe is a waste of a CP.

Yes but you can only access relics from the codex of your warlord. Regardless of the number of times you play the relic strat. Hence, armour, skullreaver and sword is viable. But u cant take AOBF as thats not in your warlords book.

Unless it's been FAQ'd, buying a relic via strategem does not have the requirement that it be from the same faction as your warlord. It simply requires you have access to the strategem, ie a detachment from that faction.

 

I really only use the axe because it's fun on the Exalted champion. It is in no way integral to the list.

 

And I'm using the cultists for cheap CP, and because I already have the models. Already put all the bloodletters I own in to the list.

[Khornestar]

It is in the Death Guard errata, I believe, that says you can spend CP to buy artifacts for detachments other than the one your warlord is in.

[Rat_Punter]

Oh ok I stand corrected. O7

[Commissar K.]

Would KDK ever ally with Renegades and Heretics or Nurgle lore wise ?Mortarion was used as distraction carnifex in a World Eaters list that was based around Berserkers in Rhinos and scored a pretty good position in a recent tourney.It is a shame most Khorne themed LoWs are so expenssive....(btw this is Xoriath,I was unable to recover my account so I had to create a new one)

Go for it if you want to, optimied tournament builds really should care to much any form of narative because that defeats the purpose between the two ;) 

If you want to improve the odds I'd say skip World Eater Rhino's alltogether and go for Alpha Legion World Eaters and have a Cultist back up line to allow for it. It's not my line of choice but it certainly is what I consider 'better' for a Tournament.

 

The game more or less boils down to CP advantages now, you obtain more the moment you go heavy on the hordes. Because World Eaters need Rhino's/Transports your essentially wasting points on non-horde units who's slots do not contribute to any CP advantage. So other than narrative there is no reason to go that route.

 

 

That said, IMHO the axe is a waste of a CP.

 

Bloodreaver is a waste on a Bloodthirster for sure. At the same time in many ways Bloodthirsters are a waste of points because you can obtain Bloodtirster attacks on your Daemon Prince thanks to Bloodreaver. Which is why I believe two Daemon Princes are almost always (always) a better choice as a single Bloodthirster.

 

The tactical advantages change with Skarbrand in the mix but his disadvantage is the inability to fly... Though honestly I havn't found any fantastic reason to include a Bloodthirser for competitive builds. 

 

All in all the choice is there for anybody :P I like the mix of narrative and comp builds and do believe 80 Bloodletters allow you to be both competitive and no oddity in terms of narrative whilst presenting tournament worthy levels of power on the board. It's a bit of a one trick poney but I see no reason why it shouldn't work. Thanks Blood Banner!

[Cheex]

 

 

That said, IMHO the axe is a waste of a CP.

 

Bloodreaver is a waste on a Bloodthirster for sure. At the same time in many ways Bloodthirsters are a waste of points because you can obtain Bloodtirster attacks on your Daemon Prince thanks to Bloodreaver. Which is why I believe two Daemon Princes are almost always (always) a better choice as a single Bloodthirster.

 

To be clear, I was talking about the Axe of Blind Fury in the post I was quoting ;)

[Xorriath]

 

Would KDK ever ally with Renegades and Heretics or Nurgle lore wise ?Mortarion was used as distraction carnifex in a World Eaters list that was based around Berserkers in Rhinos and scored a pretty good position in a recent tourney.It is a shame most Khorne themed LoWs are so expenssive....(btw this is Xoriath,I was unable to recover my account so I had to create a new one)

Go for it if you want to, optimied tournament builds really should care to much any form of narative because that defeats the purpose between the two  

If you want to improve the odds I'd say skip World Eater Rhino's alltogether and go for Alpha Legion World Eaters and have a Cultist back up line to allow for it. It's not my line of choice but it certainly is what I consider 'better' for a Tournament.

 

The game more or less boils down to CP advantages now, you obtain more the moment you go heavy on the hordes. Because World Eaters need Rhino's/Transports your essentially wasting points on non-horde units who's slots do not contribute to any CP advantage. So other than narrative there is no reason to go that route.

 

 

 

 

The thing about Mortarion is that he can act as a distraction for Rhinos.With warp time most opponents would rather shoot their big guns into him allowing Rhinos to close in.The Khorne themed models that would act as a distraction are too pricey for what they do.Mortarion with warptime does what Heldrakes do but better(for lower price).He closes in distance very quickly tieing multiple units in combat and taking fire while the Rhinos run on the board.I know this is not really related to KDK anymore,just a thought on how KDK may include non KDK units in order to perform better in tournament play.And tbh I do not think Mortarion would be that much of a deal  if all the other units are Khorne related.

[Commissar K.]

 

 

Would KDK ever ally with Renegades and Heretics or Nurgle lore wise ?Mortarion was used as distraction carnifex in a World Eaters list that was based around Berserkers in Rhinos and scored a pretty good position in a recent tourney.It is a shame most Khorne themed LoWs are so expenssive....(btw this is Xoriath,I was unable to recover my account so I had to create a new one)

Go for it if you want to, optimied tournament builds really should care to much any form of narative because that defeats the purpose between the two  

If you want to improve the odds I'd say skip World Eater Rhino's alltogether and go for Alpha Legion World Eaters and have a Cultist back up line to allow for it. It's not my line of choice but it certainly is what I consider 'better' for a Tournament.

 

The game more or less boils down to CP advantages now, you obtain more the moment you go heavy on the hordes. Because World Eaters need Rhino's/Transports your essentially wasting points on non-horde units who's slots do not contribute to any CP advantage. So other than narrative there is no reason to go that route.

 

 

 

 

The thing about Mortarion is that he can act as a distraction for Rhinos.With warp time most opponents would rather shoot their big guns into him allowing Rhinos to close in.The Khorne themed models that would act as a distraction are too pricey for what they do.Mortarion with warptime does what Heldrakes do but better(for lower price).He closes in distance very quickly tieing multiple units in combat and taking fire while the Rhinos run on the board.I know this is not really related to KDK anymore,just a thought on how KDK may include non KDK units in order to perform better in tournament play.And tbh I do not think Mortarion would be that much of a deal  if all the other units are Khorne related.

 

Totally ture, though the thing is that I think the Lord of Skulls can preform the same role but the typical issue with combat focused armies for me personally is that distraction stuff like that doesn't work all to well. The prime reason behind this is that because our army is so low of shooting the best tools we have to currently counter that and be 'mono Khorne' or 'Khorne Daemonkin' are with Denizens of the Warp and Banner of Blood, plus our own neat Locus.

 

I personally believe that the easiest succes to obtain for us Khorne players as a result isn't to try and push a distrcation model but instead have so many weapons that whilst opponents will be able to deal with some it's close to impossible to deal with all. E.g. I believe 4x20 Bloodletters deeps triking and 3d6" charging create a bigger problem for our opponents than Mortarion or a Lord of Skulls does.

 

The prime reason for this is that there is a massive advantage to not thaking pieces that are vunerable to 'anti-tank'. While with World Eaters we really can't go completely without vehicles the power to do so is quite massive because most armies do not pack the flamer numbers (currently) to deal with this horde-like meta  movement.

[Cheex]

Just had my first game using a World Eaters Daemonkin-type force.

 

And I managed to fail a bloodletter bomb charge.

[Khornestar]

Any thoughts on the Storm Eagle? If taken without twin lascannons it’s cheaper than the Kharybdis, and might be able to punch through a smaller chaff unit to make enough room for 20 zerks (or whatever) to do their thing.

[CrystalSeer]

Another Saturday, and another glorious slaughter for Khorne!

 

 

I won't go through a full batrep, because I wasn't taking notes, and don't remember enough details. This list was about trying out my bloodthirster (of Insensate Rage) in 8th edition. I really expected him to go down fast. I didn't expect him to get his points back. I thought I was being overly attached to my giant murder-gribbly and that he would be lackluster.

 

...and then he charged a knight and took it out in one round of combat.

 

Following that, he ate a charge by Custodes, and swung back killing one, holding long enough for my berserkers to charge in and wipe the rest of the squad. This is WITH me failing every single 4+ save and only making 1 FNP out of the 15 wounds he took. This guy came in like a giant fiery wrecking ball. Points efficiency or not I believe he has won a position in my list.

 

Sadly, I'm slowly accepting that my bloodcrushers are not a great unit. As cool and fluffy as they are, they basically get one charge off then die. This would be fine, except at almost 50 pts a model, they do the exact same thing that bloodletters do at more than twice the cost, and 1 additional CP for DotW. +1 toughness doesn't justify the price hike.

[Xorriath]

Another Saturday, and another glorious slaughter for Khorne!

 

 

I won't go through a full batrep, because I wasn't taking notes, and don't remember enough details. This list was about trying out my bloodthirster (of Insensate Rage) in 8th edition. I really expected him to go down fast. I didn't expect him to get his points back. I thought I was being overly attached to my giant murder-gribbly and that he would be lackluster.

 

...and then he charged a knight and took it out in one round of combat.

 

Following that, he ate a charge by Custodes, and swung back killing one, holding long enough for my berserkers to charge in and wipe the rest of the squad. This is WITH me failing every single 4+ save and only making 1 FNP out of the 15 wounds he took. This guy came in like a giant fiery wrecking ball. Points efficiency or not I believe he has won a position in my list.

 

Sadly, I'm slowly accepting that my bloodcrushers are not a great unit. As cool and fluffy as they are, they basically get one charge off then die. This would be fine, except at almost 50 pts a model, they do the exact same thing that bloodletters do at more than twice the cost, and 1 additional CP for DotW. +1 toughness doesn't justify the price hike.

You can even use the Stratagem to make BT have 3++ for a phase

if you got the spare CP .

[CrystalSeer]

 

Another Saturday, and another glorious slaughter for Khorne!

 

 

I won't go through a full batrep, because I wasn't taking notes, and don't remember enough details. This list was about trying out my bloodthirster (of Insensate Rage) in 8th edition. I really expected him to go down fast. I didn't expect him to get his points back. I thought I was being overly attached to my giant murder-gribbly and that he would be lackluster.

 

...and then he charged a knight and took it out in one round of combat.

 

Following that, he ate a charge by Custodes, and swung back killing one, holding long enough for my berserkers to charge in and wipe the rest of the squad. This is WITH me failing every single 4+ save and only making 1 FNP out of the 15 wounds he took. This guy came in like a giant fiery wrecking ball. Points efficiency or not I believe he has won a position in my list.

 

Sadly, I'm slowly accepting that my bloodcrushers are not a great unit. As cool and fluffy as they are, they basically get one charge off then die. This would be fine, except at almost 50 pts a model, they do the exact same thing that bloodletters do at more than twice the cost, and 1 additional CP for DotW. +1 toughness doesn't justify the price hike.

You can even use the Stratagem to make BT have 3++ for a phase

if you got the spare CP .

 

 

I love the concept, but getting that much CP after DotW is challenging for me

[Xorriath]

 

 

Another Saturday, and another glorious slaughter for Khorne!

 

 

I won't go through a full batrep, because I wasn't taking notes, and don't remember enough details. This list was about trying out my bloodthirster (of Insensate Rage) in 8th edition. I really expected him to go down fast. I didn't expect him to get his points back. I thought I was being overly attached to my giant murder-gribbly and that he would be lackluster.

 

...and then he charged a knight and took it out in one round of combat.

 

Following that, he ate a charge by Custodes, and swung back killing one, holding long enough for my berserkers to charge in and wipe the rest of the squad. This is WITH me failing every single 4+ save and only making 1 FNP out of the 15 wounds he took. This guy came in like a giant fiery wrecking ball. Points efficiency or not I believe he has won a position in my list.

 

Sadly, I'm slowly accepting that my bloodcrushers are not a great unit. As cool and fluffy as they are, they basically get one charge off then die. This would be fine, except at almost 50 pts a model, they do the exact same thing that bloodletters do at more than twice the cost, and 1 additional CP for DotW. +1 toughness doesn't justify the price hike.

You can even use the Stratagem to make BT have 3++ for a phase

if you got the spare CP .

 

 

I love the concept, but getting that much CP after DotW is challenging for me

 

Yeah,and it has to be declared at the beginning of the phase,so the other player can just put his big guns into the Rhinos.

[Commissar K.]

Exact, though as always for more fun games they are an option. The thing really remain for me is that due to the many deep strike options (which are great!) a lot of cavalry type units don't serve a massive purpose anymore. Same sadly applies also to Fleshhounds in my opinion. Due to Karanak being a character I've always felt that this is still a good option but the regulars are... well... not Bloodletters.

Having said that, it also really depends on what kind of game your in for. At the competitive level I would say a lot of units don't live up to Bloodletters and if Khorne was in a better position as it is thanks to say, strong ranged offense or great homebase models they'd might even be considered too cheap...

Still like where Khorne is right now, but I don't believe we have many build options if you want to play at a tournamentesque level and have some beyond decent results.

[CrystalSeer]

Thankfully, I avoid tournaments. There aren't many of them where I'm at anyway, and I think the game is just a hell of a lot more fun when you play with a club.

[Commissar K.]

Only the best for sure! I think in general it's best for Games Workshop games to play them in a semi-competitive setting but much less so in a hardcore tournament setting. While GW has seriously improved their rulings this time it's still not optimized or designed in mind with a 'must win' design in mind.

Still am in sort of stasis with building and developing new lists however, because to me it does seem that Khorne is somewhat in the corner of 'run Berzerkers and Bloodletters and see what happens'. While I'm not opposed to it, it is kind of boring to me right now... Hopefully the future will bring more Chaos Codeci though generally speaking I do see the same occuring elsewhere also in Chaos. E.g. Deathguard Poxwalkers to me are so great that not running them often leads to a hard to play build and/or have it feel 'Deathguard'. Likewise Thousand Sons either seem to rely on Tzaangors or Horrors, both great choices still. 

Converting stuff is a great way to spend the time and hope for updates however! Cheers!

[Sgt. Blank]

Thanks in part to the excellent discussion in this thread I picked up the Daemon codex and want to revisit my KDK. However, I don't have enough Bloodletters yet to fill the required troops for a battalion, let alone field unit(s) 20+ strong.

I do have models from my old Gorepack to form an outrider detachment of flesh hounds and I'm curious if anyone's tried this mixed with Worldeaters. They're tougher than Bloodletters, they have a chance to deny psychic powers (nice since the other options are either command point or relic), and thanks to their higher move they are less reliant on deep strike but they don't hit as hard either due to the lower AP and no chance to get extra wounds on 6+.

 

I'm not sure how much the lack of punch matters since this is a cheap detachment (under 300 points) would function to tie up shooting units in the early turns, start clearing chaff and screening units early to set up productive assaults in turns 2-5 and utilizing their speed to grab objectives and force the enemy to play more of the board. This all sounds nice but I may be talking myself into it.

 

edit: added details

[CrystalSeer]

Only the best for sure! I think in general it's best for Games Workshop games to play them in a semi-competitive setting but much less so in a hardcore tournament setting. While GW has seriously improved their rulings this time it's still not optimized or designed in mind with a 'must win' design in mind.

 

Still am in sort of stasis with building and developing new lists however, because to me it does seem that Khorne is somewhat in the corner of 'run Berzerkers and Bloodletters and see what happens'. While I'm not opposed to it, it is kind of boring to me right now... Hopefully the future will bring more Chaos Codeci though generally speaking I do see the same occuring elsewhere also in Chaos. E.g. Deathguard Poxwalkers to me are so great that not running them often leads to a hard to play build and/or have it feel 'Deathguard'. Likewise Thousand Sons either seem to rely on Tzaangors or Horrors, both great choices still. 

 

Converting stuff is a great way to spend the time and hope for updates however! Cheers!

 

This is why I advocated taking alternative choices. Not because they were as strong, but because playing just 1-2 unit types is rather boring.

 

 

Thanks in part to the excellent discussion in this thread I picked up the Daemon codex and want to revisit my KDK. However, I don't have enough Bloodletters yet to fill the required troops for a battalion, let alone field unit(s) 20+ strong.

 

I do have models from my old Gorepack to form an outrider detachment of flesh hounds and I'm curious if anyone's tried this mixed with Worldeaters. They're tougher than Bloodletters, they have a chance to deny psychic powers (nice since the other options are either command point or relic), and thanks to their higher move they are less reliant on deep strike but they don't hit as hard either due to the lower AP and no chance to get extra wounds on 6+.

 

I'm not sure how much the lack of punch matters since this is a cheap detachment (under 300 points) would function to tie up shooting units in the early turns, start clearing chaff and screening units early to set up productive assaults in turns 2-5 and utilizing their speed to grab objectives and force the enemy to play more of the board. This all sounds nice but I may be talking myself into it.

 

edit: added details

 

The only negatives I would see with this are:

 

- they lack the punch of hellblades

- more survivable than bloodletters isn't saying much. They'll still go down to a stiff breeze

- Not troops, so you're not getting CP out of them. In this edition/meta that really hurts

[Sgt. Blank]

 

 

The only negatives I would see with this are:

 

- they lack the punch of hellblades

- more survivable than bloodletters isn't saying much. They'll still go down to a stiff breeze

- Not troops, so you're not getting CP out of them. In this edition/meta that really hurts

 

 

Those all seem like potentially big negatives to me, honestly, especially taken together. At a minimum, it seems like at least three units need to use Denizens of the Warp, 2 Fleshhounds and a Bloodmaster, to ensure that one reaches assault when they arrive, taking three CP (net of two from Outrider Detachment).  I can add a unit of Bloodletters but that would require more CP (possibly 2 for Banner of Blood and DotW). I may try it anyway depending on when I play next.

 

Thanks!

[Xorriath]

How would you guys rate the Daemon Engines from best to worst ( including FW ) ?

[Khornestar]

Hmmm... that's a great question.

 

Dunno if I can actually rank them, as my thoughts are mostly arbitrary and not based on much play experience:

 

Lord of Skulls, given the ability to shoot, kick ass in melee, lots of wounds, heals one per turn, 5++, BS/WS don't decrease, attacks increase... but it is a toooon of points, so I dunno. 

 

Blood Slaughterer... very cool, but too expensive.

 

Maulerfiends, okay, I guess, but not super impressive.

 

Kytan is okay, degrading attacks is unfortunate.

 

Brass Scorpion seems awesome, again just so many points.

 

Forgefiends, super meh.

 

Am I missing any that we can take, as World Eaters?

[Xorriath]

Hmmm... that's a great question.

 

Dunno if I can actually rank them, as my thoughts are mostly arbitrary and not based on much play experience:

 

Lord of Skulls, given the ability to shoot, kick ass in melee, lots of wounds, heals one per turn, 5++, BS/WS don't decrease, attacks increase... but it is a toooon of points, so I dunno. 

 

Blood Slaughterer... very cool, but too expensive.

 

Maulerfiends, okay, I guess, but not super impressive.

 

Kytan is okay, degrading attacks is unfortunate.

 

Brass Scorpion seems awesome, again just so many points.

 

Forgefiends, super meh.

 

Am I missing any that we can take, as World Eaters?

There would be defilers,decimators and heldrakes ,but pretty sure I might be missing something.Thanks for analysis .I think that the brass scorpion can be amazing if the opponent lacks required firepower to dispatch it within one turn.The anti vehicle weapon alone of the scorpion can kill a vehicle let alone his other weapon and his CC potential.

[Khornestar]

Hey oh right, those!

 

Drakes I’ve actually used. They’re...okay, but don’t really inflict much damage. I wouldn’t ever use more than 1. Turn 1 charge is cool, but should serve a purpose. Maybe to tie stuff up in case the other units you’re dropping in and trying to charge fail, or shut down overwatch in either case.

 

Defilers, I guess they’re decent. Sold mine. Don’t really like it.

 

Decimator, looks SUPER cool, seems decent too.

 

There we have it, the least valuable analysis ever. :P