Thousand Sons preorder January.27

[Paladin777]

238 for a squad of 5 loaded is certainly much better than 266!

[Sonoftherubric21]

So to re-state what we know: 

 

So we know we have all the standard options for chaos, all daemon engines, all the main line tanks, our new options.

 

We know almost all of our 3 spell lists, Hereticus, Daemons, and the new list where we just learned about Temporal;

 

So we have Temporal

Glamour

Doombolt

Firestorm

Weaver, 

 

Meaning we are only missing 1 spell from the list, unless I cant quite recall it and it was already talked about. Either way, its a  good list, and gives reason to take many many sorcerers in both HQ and in squads..... 

 

We know the stats for the bow tzaangors for the most part, we know that the sorcerers in squads no longer cost beyond initial cost of squad mates + gear, we know the Mutalith info for the most part, and know the info for the Tzaangor shaman. 

 

We know that we are getting a large number of strategems, only about half a dozen of which have been spoiled. 

 

Tzaangor swing twice

Vets of the Long War

Spawn buff strat

Spawn MAKING strat (lol)

Webway Strategem. 

There may have been 1-2 others I cant recall. 

 

We know that Magnus' auras have changed, one  being for psychic checks, the other for "to hit" rolls As well as knowing an extra spell. Came up 30 points. 

 

Ahrimans Warlord trait is +1 to invul save leaving him at a standard 3++ invul, as well as Ahriman having a Captain aura, this means that Exalteds WILL have at minimum that "Re roll 1's" aura at minimum Given the character design conventions of 8th 

 

All fairly impressive. Working on formulating some list ideas based upon the info we have now.I may have missed some points, but this is the overview of it. 

[hhhdan]

 

So to re-state what we know: 

 

So we know we have all the standard options for chaos, all daemon engines, all the main line tanks, our new options.

 

We know almost all of our 3 spell lists, Hereticus, Daemons, and the new list where we just learned about Temporal;

 

So we have Temporal

Glamour

Doombolt

Firestorm

Weaver, 

 

Meaning we are only missing 1 spell from the list, unless I cant quite recall it and it was already talked about. Either way, its a  good list, and gives reason to take many many sorcerers in both HQ and in squads..... 

 

We know the stats for the bow tzaangors for the most part, we know that the sorcerers in squads no longer cost beyond initial cost of squad mates + gear, we know the Mutalith info for the most part, and know the info for the Tzaangor shaman. 

 

We know that we are getting a large number of strategems, only about half a dozen of which have been spoiled. 

 

Tzaangor swing twice

Vets of the Long War

Spawn buff strat

Spawn MAKING strat (lol)

Webway Strategem. 

There may have been 1-2 others I cant recall. 

 

We know that Magnus' auras have changed, one  being for psychic checks, the other for "to hit" rolls As well as knowing an extra spell. Came up 30 points. 

 

Ahrimans Warlord trait is +1 to invul save leaving him at a standard 3++ invul, as well as Ahriman having a Captain aura, this means that Exalteds WILL have at minimum that "Re roll 1's" aura at minimum Given the character design conventions of 8th 

 

All fairly impressive. Working on formulating some list ideas based upon the info we have now.I may have missed some points, but this is the overview of it. 

 

 

Other stratagems that will be in: 

Warpflame gargoyles were revealed yesterday

Cabalistic focus from chapter approved

additional Relics stratagem

 

Likely stratagems from chaos codex:

Linebreaker bombardment

Daemonforge

Blasphemous machines

Killshot

(maybe) The great sorcerer

(maybe) tide of traitors

(maybe) boon of chaos

 

So we know about 11-14 stratagems. And considering that death guard got 14 stratagems, i'm not sure we will get many more than that. Maybe 18, as 14 = 2x7 (nurgle number), so for us 2x9=18 (tzeentch number) but that is wishful thinking.

[Sonoftherubric21]

thank you! Totally forgot about cabal/gargoyles. 

[hhhdan]

 

 

All fairly impressive. Working on formulating some list ideas based upon the info we have now.I may have missed some points, but this is the overview of it. 

 

 

On the one hand I'm a bit sad that both tzeentch daemons and us got kind of less universally applicable faction traits (the former being only useful for assault units or screens. The latter being only good on sorcerers).

 

But that makes it an easier choice of the list for me: we need lots of command points it seems to do all sorts of shenanigans. We need to have a lot of sorcerers to cast all those spells. 

 

So i'm thinking of having a cabal as a supreme command detachment of ahriman and either 2 sorcerers/daemon princes or exalteds (depending what they did with them) and then a mixed brigade of daemons and thousand sons, like 3 units of flying tzaangors, tzaangor shaman, exalted flamer and scarab occult (with a power that buffs themselves). Couple of rubric squads, big blob of pink horrors, couple of min brimstone units, probably a big tzaangor unit, mutalith, herald, daemon prince. Not quite sure how to finalise the list, but seems like a good idea so far :d

[Sonoftherubric21]

I looked at doing some brigade stuff but it locks you in to your list build 100%, i was looking at filling out elites and heavies are crazy expensive. that and 40 tzaangors and about 10 rubrics (2 squads of 5)

Gives you 12 command points but it locks you so hard, instead I was looking at doing something more.....Light? on cp? instead of 6 or 7, I was looking at 9. do 2 Battallions, 40 some odd tzaangors, single squad of cultists for cheap home-objective sitting, and fill the rest with rubric slots to give me 6 troops. 4 hq's is easy, then fill the remainder with heavy stuff for big fun. Smashy smashy and all that. 

Gives you a solid 9 command points, and decent flexibility, Rubrics will be pretty good with the codex, and tzaangors will be fantastic IMO. (bigger the better in their case....but needs must!) 

[hhhdan]

I looked at doing some brigade stuff but it locks you in to your list build 100%, i was looking at filling out elites and heavies are crazy expensive. that and 40 tzaangors and about 10 rubrics (2 squads of 5)

 

Gives you 12 command points but it locks you so hard, instead I was looking at doing something more.....Light? on cp? instead of 6 or 7, I was looking at 9. do 2 Battallions, 40 some odd tzaangors, single squad of cultists for cheap home-objective sitting, and fill the rest with rubric slots to give me 6 troops. 4 hq's is easy, then fill the remainder with heavy stuff for big fun. Smashy smashy and all that. 

 

Gives you a solid 9 command points, and decent flexibility, Rubrics will be pretty good with the codex, and tzaangors will be fantastic IMO. (bigger the better in their case....but needs must!) 

 

i'm thinking something like

 

herald

herald

daemon prince

 

10 brimstone

10 brimstone

5-10 rubrics

5-10 rubrics

30 pink horrors

blob of tzaangors?

 

shaman

exalted flamer

exalted flamer

 

Mutalith

???

???

 

 

supreme command to unlock stratagems and get the +6" to cast on the main casters

Ahriman

sorcerer

sorcerer

[hhhdan]

I looked at doing some brigade stuff but it locks you in to your list build 100%, i was looking at filling out elites and heavies are crazy expensive. that and 40 tzaangors and about 10 rubrics (2 squads of 5)

 

Gives you 12 command points but it locks you so hard, instead I was looking at doing something more.....Light? on cp? instead of 6 or 7, I was looking at 9. do 2 Battallions, 40 some odd tzaangors, single squad of cultists for cheap home-objective sitting, and fill the rest with rubric slots to give me 6 troops. 4 hq's is easy, then fill the remainder with heavy stuff for big fun. Smashy smashy and all that. 

 

Gives you a solid 9 command points, and decent flexibility, Rubrics will be pretty good with the codex, and tzaangors will be fantastic IMO. (bigger the better in their case....but needs must!) 

 

thing is, most of the local tournaments have a restriction of no duplicate detachments. 

 

Plus the only thing i really struggle with filling is the heavy slot and if the mutalith is good i might just take more than 1 of them depending on how their aura thing works (if multiple auras with different effects stack, it might be fun to run more than one)

[Raven1]

A double battalion of TS might work well. I'm writing up a battalion and supreme command detchment.

[Grimskar Bloodfart]

So I'm still fairly new to 8th (only have about four games under my belt after a long hiatus since 3rd) and I'm wondering how you guys are dealing with armor. My local meta is mostly made up of Guard players who run 3-4 Russ and a Celestine/Ogryn bomb. A few pull out Shadowswords when they're particularly feeling like boiling an ant hill. 

 

I don't anticipate on being highly successful against these cheese lists, but I'm planning on bringing a Spearhead with two Predators with quad lascannons, and one with an autocannon/heavy bolter to mop up Ogryn who find themselves without an invulnerable save. I've not had much success with Maulerfiends, as I find they just get shot off the board before they can do anything useful. I'm wondering what other options people find themselves running or plan to in the future.

[Arachnofiend]

The new Tzaangor Skyfires seem like they'll be a good swiss army knife unit, fully capable of just drowning high-toughness enemies in saves.

[Sonoftherubric21]

So I'm still fairly new to 8th (only have about four games under my belt after a long hiatus since 3rd) and I'm wondering how you guys are dealing with armor. My local meta is mostly made up of Guard players who run 3-4 Russ and a Celestine/Ogryn bomb. A few pull out Shadowswords when they're particularly feeling like boiling an ant hill. 

 

I don't anticipate on being highly successful against these cheese lists, but I'm planning on bringing a Spearhead with two Predators with quad lascannons, and one with an autocannon/heavy bolter to mop up Ogryn who find themselves without an invulnerable save. I've not had much success with Maulerfiends, as I find they just get shot off the board before they can do anything useful. I'm wondering what other options people find themselves running or plan to in the future.

 

If you came up against lots of guard there are a few tricks, any of our spells that deal Mortal Wounds work just as well against a russ. 

 

If you are going to run daemon engines in a meta like that you need to run them in pairs. as a standard for me in 2k I often run a defiler, a mauler, and a forge. or a defiler/forge for shooting, or defiler/mauler for melee.

 

I would double up in that situation, OR the trip-predator tactic would also work, killshot something to DEATH. 

[Grimskar Bloodfart]

Thanks for the reply! I should have better clarified my initial list. I was running a spearhead with three Maulerfiends and they were underwhelming. Two would be shot off the board or so wounded they were ineffective on a regular basis. I'm thinking the trip-pred and killshot all the things method is my next go around, but I was curious what others are using. 

 

Skyfires and drowning things in wounds definitely is an interesting idea.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Thanks for the reply! I should have better clarified my initial list. I was running a spearhead with three Maulerfiends and they were underwhelming. Two would be shot off the board or so wounded they were ineffective on a regular basis. I'm thinking the trip-pred and killshot all the things method is my next go around, but I was curious what others are using. 

 

Skyfires and drowning things in wounds definitely is an interesting idea.

 

WOW. those must be some ball-busting lists. What kind of load out is on the russes? guarantee with that outcome the buggers are expensive 

[Raven1]

I don't know what regiment he is running but with caravans they are rolling the number of shots on DX weapons so i think they are going to be more efficient than one might think.

 

Personally I've been think of running trip vindicator for that strategems seems more effective against gunlines than kill shot for predators.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I don't know what regiment he is running but with caravans they are rolling the number of shots on DX weapons so i think they are going to be more efficient than one might think.

 

Personally I've been think of running trip vindicator for that strategems seems more effective against gunlines than kill shot for predators.

 

I *think* just with turret base price of a russ is 170ish? 

 

Without sponsons of course. 

 

Maybe the vindicator trick would work, a Leviathan would help, Depending on army build if its all tanks you could really deal alot of damage either with psykers or webway-drop a huge tzaangor or rubric blob, buff appropriately, and let it rip. 

 

Also if hes spamming infantry to bubble-wrap his tanks (presumably) the daemon spell for exposions would also work, theoretically could do alot of damage. if hes abusing re-rolls target his 4 wound models and firestorm/infernal/whatever other spell stakced we have off the board. 

[Grimskar Bloodfart]

The guy I play the most is generally running a Tank Commander with Executioner and three Russ with BCs, none with sponsons but with hull lascannons. Part of the problem is that of the four times I've faced him, I've lost three of the roll offs (despite getting +1 to go first) and the one time I did win the roll off he seized on me. I have zero luck when it comes to going first. 

 

I've just switched over to Thousand Sons after originally trying World Eaters out. I've done reasonably well in the games we played, but I can't crack the tanks despite the Berserkers eating all of his infantry. As much as I like the WE lore, the playstyle is a bit too mindless for me and I like the TS playstyle as well, so I'm officially switching over. 

 

I'm pondering not even trying to win the anti-armor game, just try to tie up the tanks in melee with a horde of Tzaangors and slaughter his infantry and just win on objectives. I'm going to look into a Leviathan. I dislike the Helbrute models and generally don't run them but I do like the Leviathan look.

[1000 Sons]

There are some guard lists where it isn't even worth setting your army up for chaos, damn Cadians. 

 

Going first is huge, a few months ago an itc article from flg said that over 75% of matches were won by the player going first, with our new deep strike abilities getting those tzangors across the table just got a lot easier.

 

The leviathan is a beast, toughness 8 can be quite a game changer.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

A russ with vanilla turret and HB sponsons (and hull HB) is only 130pts I believe. Switching to Predators isn't really going to solve your problem. It'll do better vs Russ spam than daemon engines, but the problem is that predators just can't compete with Russes. They're equivalently priced units and are on an even footing...and then the Russ gets a Trait, orders, and gets to shoot twice per turn. Trying to outshoot Guard armor with Chaos Armor flat out does not work. And battlecannon russes are great at putting out lots of damage, so countering them with big models is always going to be a poor strategy.

 

You need to capitalize on units that are not as weak to Russes, and that they don't have as good of a counter for. Perhaps combi-plasma terminators, larger squads of units, etc. Of course, many of those will get countered by his other units. And even if you manage to tailor a list that can handle his, you may find it inadequate as an all-comers (while his will do fine as an all-comers.) Which is why people complain about Guard these days :|

[Sonoftherubric21]

Huh. If thats the case.... id take 2 massive blob of tzzaangors with instruments in reserve and crash them into his line on turn 1.  You will tie up everything you can touch and the squads are so big he has no choice but to adjust his strategy. 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Huh. If thats the case.... id take 2 massive blob of tzzaangors with instruments in reserve and crash them into his line on turn 1.  You will tie up everything you can touch and the squads are so big he has no choice but to adjust his strategy. 

 

Yeah. Fallback locking Russes is the best way to disable them. It's just a matter of busting through his screen quickly enough to tarpit them.

[Grimskar Bloodfart]

Thanks for the help guys! I appreciate it. 

[Raven1]

Yeah there is a reason Guard is king thus far. I dont think you can out shoot the guard tieing/dealing up the bubble wrap quickly and then use the elites to go after the tanks. Probably the tank commander first? Idk.

 

You can deepstrike 60 Tzaangors (well 2x 30) and reasonably get an assault turn one and wipe those guardsmen with the extra attack, Death to the false emperor (I heard they get it with the codex) double attack strategems and possible drop some sorcerers in terminator armor to support them.

 

I think those sorcerers can get the chainfist and combi melta too so it could help with the tanks. They can in the index we'll see about the codex.

[hhhdan]

Yeah there is a reason Guard is king thus far. I dont think you can out shoot the guard tieing/dealing up the bubble wrap quickly and then use the elites to go after the tanks. Probably the tank commander first? Idk.

 

You can deepstrike 60 Tzaangors (well 2x 30) and reasonably get an assault turn one and wipe those guardsmen with the extra attack, Death to the false emperor (I heard they get it with the codex) double attack strategems and possible drop some sorcerers in terminator armor to support them.

 

I think those sorcerers can get the chainfist and combi melta too so it could help with the tanks. They can in the index we'll see about the codex.

 

Also dropping pink horrors first turn to clear any screens and later dropping 30 tzaangors to tie everything up could also work

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

One of the other ways to kill Guard is through cartoonishly massive shot count. Back when Conscripts were king, Reece from FLG built a Raptors SM list that averaged 70 dead Conscripts per turn from shooting and still had both assault troops and anti-armor to use when the screens were dead.

 

The key was a truckload of Storm Bolters and shotguns, coupled with Sternguard in pods.

 

We can do something similar with 10 man SOT plus 20 man Rubrics plus 40 man goats for follow up charges. Then with VotLW our bolters, Soulreapers, and power swords can melt tanks and Knights given the save penalties and sheer number of dice....even better if we drop psychic mortal wounds on them first.

 

We can also bring in 30 Pink Horrors or some Flamers for even more hellish shot count if we really want to...with cultists for backfield holding and non-DS board presence, though some of that could be dropped for anti-tank.