Vanguard Veterans vs Assault Squad

[Daigo Cannon]

I just finished building my Vanguard veterans, as the collector I'm I was reviewing if the next thing to buy will be another set of Vanguard Veterans(VV) or an Assault Squad(AS), which I have zero, but then I went to review the difference between both units.

VV 5 Man is 80 vs AS 5 man  for 65

For extra 15 we have +1 Leadership and 5 extra CC attacks, both units come with bolt pistol an chainsword.

VV have plenty of option from dual pistols, to pistol and CC weapon

 

Assault Squad

Can trade 2bolt pistol for plasma or pistol and chain sword for a flamer(up to 2) and 1 eviscerator every 5 men strong.

Can equip eviscerator Sx2, AP-4, d3, 22 pts

Sargent can equip  combat shield(22pts) for a 5++

 

Vanguard Veterans

Can equip any combination of pistols, cc weapon and/or storm shield(5pts) for 3++

With the reduce cost of Power fist 10pts cheaper in exchange for Str x2, AP -3, d3 or a Thunder hammer 16pts Str x2, AP -3, 3

All the squad can wield storm shield, +2 to invulnerable save for 1 point compared to the combat shield.

 

With everybody so focus on Intercessor vs Tactical, but looks like we have another case of same role unit (with the difference VV are elites and AS fast attack) that the points difference between both units leaves the other one to be relegated.

 

Is there a worth reason to use AS?

I mean this will cause for me to only build 5 of them instead of the 20 I was initially thinking as I don't see a future where I will put them in a list in front of the VV.

[Firepower]

Well, the old reason for the Assault Squad (as in the last couple of editions) was typically a harassment unit, either tying up enemies in melee or zipping around with Flamers or occasionally P Pistols to annoy the enemy.

 

Now guys can just run away from combat, so that's kinda up in smoke.  However, over in the BA subforum, they have figured out a way for Jump troops to actually move in a melee that prevents the enemy from retreating on their turn.  It's cheesy as hell, but I'd use it in a heartbeat to compensate for that stupid no-penalty-withdrawal rule 8th has :P

 

Sooo anyway, with V Vets in the dex, no, I don't see much point to Assault Squads.  Not everyone agrees with that, though. They have their defenders here.

[Shovellovin]

However, over in the BA subforum, they have figured out a way for Jump troops to actually move in a melee that prevents the enemy from retreating on their turn.  It's cheesy as hell, but I'd use it in a heartbeat to compensate for that stupid no-penalty-withdrawal rule 8th has

 

Do tell.

[Toxichobbit]

Vanguard Veterans seem like the best choice. They're not much more expensive, have extra attacks, Ld and weapon options. The easiest way to decide is to analyse the differences between the two units. You pointed some of them out, so lets take a closer look.

 

Points Cost

Assault Squad (5 man, bolt pistols, chainswords, frag & krak grenades): 65 (13 ppm).

Assault Squad (5 man, bolt pistols, chainswords, frag & krak grenades, jump packs): 80 (16 ppm).

Assault Squad (10 man, bolt pistols, chainswords, frag & krak grenades): 130 (13 ppm).

Assault Squad (10 man, bolt pistols, chainswords, frag & krak grenades, jump packs): 160 (16 ppm).

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad (5 man, bolt pistols, frag & krak grenades): 80 (16 ppm).

Vanguard Veteran Squad (5 man, bolt pistols, frag & krak grenades, jump packs): 90 (18 ppm).

Vanguard Veteran Squad (10 man, bolt pistols, frag & krak grenades): 160 (16 ppm).

Vanguard Veteran Squad (10 man, bolt pistols, frag & krak grenades, jump packs): 180 (18 ppm).

 

For 5 man squads Assault Squads are 15 points cheaper. Assault Squads with jump packs are 10 points cheaper. The decision here is fairly simple, can you spare those 15/10 points to take Vangaurd Veterans? Would you be better served with a squad of 6 Assault Marines for approximately the same cost? Obviously as you increase the squad size the difference becomes more pronounced, capping out at a 30 point difference between the two 10 man squads without jump packs. Personally, unless my list is really tight on points I'd always find the extra to take Vanguard Veterans instead of Assault Marines. Especially if they have jump packs.

 

Detachment Slot

Vanguard Veterans require an Elite slot, Assault Marines a Fast Attack. The Elites slot is over-crowded for Marines, but a Batallion has six and there's the Vanguard Detachment in larger games, so it's not too difficult to squeeze in Vanguard Vets. I also feel there's better Fast Attack choices to fill mandatory slots (Scout Bikers, for example). Again Vanguard Veterans are the clear winner here unless you really need to save Elites slots.

 

Stat Differences

Vangaurd Veterans sport +1 A & Ld over Assault Marines. Both valuable stats, worth the 3/2 extra points per model in most circumstances.

 

Upgrade Options

Vanguard Veterans have lots and can be tailored to do a variety of melee or short ranged roles. Assault Marines have much less choice, so I'll concentrate on them.

 

First option is flamers, which the Vanguard Veterans don't have access to. This might be a reason for taking Assault Marines, although flamers aren't that good this edition.

 

Second option is plasma pistols. Simply put, Vangaurd Veterans can do this better because they can take more plasma.

 

Third option is Eviscerators. They're horribly over-costed for one attack models and while the Sergeant can take one to get an extra attack, a thunder hammer is just as good, if not better (depending on how you rate lower AP vs random damage) while being significantly cheaper. Like plasma pistols, Vanguard Veterans can do this better by taking the cheaper thunder hammer, which isn't limited to just two per unit and has more attacks per model.

 

Basically, unless you really want fast moving flamers, Vanguard Veterans are superior when it comes to upgrades.

 

Suvivability

Assault Marines are slightly cheaper, so it's possible to take more of them to absorb more punishment. Vanguard Veterans have higher Ld, so are less likely to loose models to Morale, although this only matters in large squads. Vanguard Veterans can also give themselves a boost against AP negative weapons by taking storm shields, though this does increase the cost. I'd rate this as a draw. Sometimes the Vanguard will be better, other times the Assault Marines. it depends on what's attacking them. At the end of a day, they're both T4 Sv3+ units, so die at about the same rate.

 

Battlefield Role

If you're planning to do damage, Vangaurd Veterans are the clear winners. Their extra attacks and better weapon upgrades allow them to kill more efficiently. Assault Marines are better if you want an expendable unit to operate behind enemy lines, whether that's preventing strong ranged enemies from shooting or capturing back-field Maelstrom objectives.

 

Tldr: I'd only take Assault Marines if I really needed to save points, couldn't spare and Elites slot or just wanted a cheap, sacrificial unit to capture objectives behind enemy lines. In all other circumstances I feel Vanguard Veterans are better.

 

 

[Firepower]

 

However, over in the BA subforum, they have figured out a way for Jump troops to actually move in a melee that prevents the enemy from retreating on their turn.  It's cheesy as hell, but I'd use it in a heartbeat to compensate for that stupid no-penalty-withdrawal rule 8th has

 

Do tell.

 

 

 

The "tri-lock" http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page-4?do=findComment&comment=4986221

[breng77]

One thing to consider with this is what you want the squad to do.  If the answer is assault vanguard are better because they can double up on chainswords and thus have 4 attacks each vs 2 from assault squads.

[Shovellovin]

 

 

However, over in the BA subforum, they have figured out a way for Jump troops to actually move in a melee that prevents the enemy from retreating on their turn.  It's cheesy as hell, but I'd use it in a heartbeat to compensate for that stupid no-penalty-withdrawal rule 8th has

 

Do tell.

 

 

 

The "tri-lock" http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343326-morts-ba-dex-observations/page-4?do=findComment&comment=4986221

 

Nice! Thank you for the link.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I've had my Cataphractii locked up so they couldn't retreat. They had to break free of those Nurgle cultists the old fashioned way, by ripping their faces off.

[Firepower]

Well that particular tactic requires units with <FLY>, otherwise they can't move over a model to get in the middle of the squad.  Not to say it can't happen other ways, but that's the only way I know of to force it reliably (once, and after that your opponent would be foolish to leave any gaps between their engaged models).

[Schlitzaf]

Any appropriate large squad can do it. Sense you consolidate a total of 6”. Each assault phase. It’s really not that hard. It’s easiest to with fly but any squad can do it

[Firepower]

Can you move past models to get into the middle of a squad without <FLY> allowing you to move over enemy models?

 

Also...I think we've wandered off topic 

[Claws and Effect]

Assault squads are useful as mobile objective grabbers. If you don't care if they kill anything they can advance and move 13"-18".