What was Russ/SW role before and after the Heresy?

[Guest]

I am trying to wrap my head around Russ's role. He has denied being the executioner despite several books implying otherwise.

 

Astropaths in Outcast Dead cry "The Wolves will be loosed again" after Magnus destroys the webway.

 

Guilliman "he should have fed you to Russ" in Know No Fear

 

Russ laments "Why do I get all the dirty jobs?" in Prospero Burns implying kill brothers/legions.

 

Malcador calls Russ "the Executioner" in Scars

 

Malcador devises a plan for Russ to execute Horus in the novel Vengeful Spirit

 

So if these are all false I am really curious as to what his purpose was? Was it anti-psyker, as Magnus spells "bounce" off Russ. Was it tracker as he was trying to find the elusive Dulan home planet? Was it shock troops hence their savage persona? Thing is that these characteristics are so few in example, and weak such as shock troops for whom? SM alone are pretty scary and shock troops on their own. So I wanted to know what other thought that read more than I have or read from a different point of view than I.

[b1soul]

He was definitely the executioner bro

[Calas Typhon]

I wrote out a big wall but the topic was moved and I lost everything. I believe this is how things went down as it makes a lot of sense to me

 

Tl;Dr Russ and the space wolves I believe were probably originally meant to be a force like the world eaters, however the time and circumstance led them to become a cleaving force for particularly tough enemies similar to how the warhounds were used.

 

Basically the world eaters and space wolves roles were reversed due to a number of events.

[Guest]

He was definitely the executioner bro

I would like to believe it but Everytime I or another mentions it, there is a outcry we are wrong. I already look at it through bias eyes, so wanted to know what other thought.

[Xisor]

In "Deliverance Lost", I seem to recall Thorpe describing the Primarchs and Legions as products of variation, to allow them to fulfil different niches and have different strengths.

 

If your child grows up to become a doctor, were they conceived to become a doctor?

 

To think that's the recurring argument. How much if Russ-as-executioner is self-styled, how much of it is delusion ("why do they keep giving me all the dirty jobs?" "Why do you keep orchestrating things to go that way?

[Charlo]

 

He was definitely the executioner bro

I would like to believe it but Everytime I or another mentions it, there is a outcry we are wrong. I already look at it through bias eyes, so wanted to know what other thought.

 

A lot of people dislike the Executioner shtick so cry out against it.

 

Really, Russ is one thing: Loyal.

 

He is loyalty personified. The wolves are rather similar to how a lot of the traitor legions were before the Heresy:

• Distrusted
• Uncaged
• Ferocious
• Blunt

Yet, Leman knew his legions purpose was to be these things and embraced it, taking on all manner of grizzly tasks (including the murder/ subjugation of at least one of the missing Primarchs).

[mc warhammer]

anything’s possible. the jury is out on the emperor’s curated primarch fraternity (nobody talks about the zodiac signs these days weirdly)

 

but, if russ has styled himself as the executioner...it would make sense for the emperor to use him as such if the need arises. if a member of your work team has an aptitude and appetite for a certain job...why wouldn’t you give it to them?

 

so he may very well have become the executioner, somewhat officially through his own actions.

 

bit of a chicken and egg scenario

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

He was definitely the executioner bro

I would like to believe it but Everytime I or another mentions it, there is a outcry we are wrong. I already look at it through bias eyes, so wanted to know what other thought.

 

 

Thing is. The whole 'executioner' shtick started with one of the most divisive HH novels we've seen, Prospero Burns. It spawned/propagated a substantial SW hatedom around the idea that it made the SWs the feared 'Marines +1' and actually better than the other 17 Legions. Despite this not being that unusual as the 'protagonist Legion' of the book. Hell, the 1kSons had a far more 'Marines +1' vibe in A Thousand Sons than the Wolves in PB, but it's less fashionable to hark on the Sons. Then BL seem to have decided the placate the haters at every turn and screw over the Wolves in every appearance (but that's an old, different, argument). But that doesn't change the fact (fully established by Inferno), that the Wolves were the executioner/dirty job Legion, that's abundantly obvious. The only real contention is how much of it was nature vs nurture and predestination/orders vs assuming the role on their own initiative.

 

Personally, I took the executioner concept as a sound way of explaining one of the many stupid incidents that mar the overall Heresy Narrative. 'Why was Russ sent to Prospero if the mission was retrieval not kill?' Previously this made no sense, sending the really anti sorcery guy with an axe to grind to retrieve Magnus? Why not the less biased, more level headed Dorn? PB answered this is fine fashion, doing away with the 'axe to grind' bit, portraying Russ as not really wanting to kill his brother, but he would do if that's what was required. And the Wolves were the only Legion that could do the job, because they were the only guys who could have pulled off an inter Legion war. It was one of my favourite things about the HH series (sadly undermined as it's revealed various Traitor Legion were totally fine with Astartes killing Astartes, part of the overall '40k-ifying' the HH seems to have been subject to as it progresses), how alien and anathema the concept of inter-Astartes conflict was to the Legions during the GC. But not to the Wolves. They were the only Legion that could be 100% relied on to not hesitate if the Sons resisted. That's what really made the Wolves 'special', their unique mindset. It's about the only time the HH series has resolved one of those silly plot points successfully imo.

[m_r_parker]

I think 'Executioner' is a rather harsh title, but I think it was the Emperor's purpose for the Wolves to be the anti-Astartes force. 

Much like the Thunder Warriors and the conquest of Terra, the Astartes were always only meant to be around for conquest / compliance actions during the Great Crusade, after that point the resulting Imperium should be able to handle any internal disputes conflicts, and there would be no need for the Space Marines to remain. The problem with sentient weapons is that they object to being decommissioned and thrown away with the trash, and a good portion will resist. So rather than using the likes of Custodes to be the main Astartes removal force, or a fledgling Imperial Guard / Navy force, why not have one of the twenty Legions assume this role? 

I would say that it was quite handy that by the time of the Heresy two of the Legions had already been censured, as it gives the Wolves some 'real life' practice whilst reducing the amount of work required at the end of the Great Crusade by 10% (approximately). Handy for when the Warmasters Legions turn traitor...

 

I was going to have a bit of a debate around Charlo's point around Leman being 'loyalty personified' - because in my mind that's Dorn and the Imperial Fists. I suppose it comes down to how much you integrate the ability to follow orders precisely into the definition of loyalty, because that's what the Fists are there for and ultimately why it's the Fists and not the Wolves that are brought to Terra to watch over the Imperial Palace whilst the Emperor goes off to secure the Webway. Russ may be loyal (and debatable as to whether he's the most loyal) but when sent to bring Magnus back to Terra he allowed himself to have his orders altered by Horus into a censure mission. If Dorn had been sent instead of Russ, then I think the Thousand Sons would have remained on the Loyalist side of the Heresy - but it wasn't Dorn's place to go. 

 

As a final thought, I'm fairly sure in the novel Master of Mankind it's said that each of the Primarchs were designed by the Emperor specifically for a task. Specifically I recall the discussion being around Angron and why a) the Emperor elected not to remove the Butchers Nails and b) the Emperor allowed Angron to return as head of the Legion despite his ... proclivities. Lorgar was always meant to be the Iconclast, Guilliman the ambassador, Horus the general, Sanguinius the symbol, so why not Russ as the censurist (pretty sure I made up that word...)

[Leif Bearclaw]

I was going to have a bit of a debate around Charlo's point around Leman being 'loyalty personified' - because in my mind that's Dorn and the Imperial Fists. I suppose it comes down to how much you integrate the ability to follow orders precisely into the definition of loyalty, because that's what the Fists are there for and ultimately why it's the Fists and not the Wolves that are brought to Terra to watch over the Imperial Palace whilst the Emperor goes off to secure the Webway. Russ may be loyal (and debatable as to whether he's the most loyal) but when sent to bring Magnus back to Terra he allowed himself to have his orders altered by Horus into a censure mission. If Dorn had been sent instead of Russ, then I think the Thousand Sons would have remained on the Loyalist side of the Heresy - but it wasn't Dorn's place to go. 

 

I think you're giving Dorn a bit too much credit there tbh. Remember, he's the guy that almost killed Garro in denial/anger when he was told of Istvaan. He loved/trusted Horus as much as any of his brothers did (except maybe Sangy, Horus's best bro). I don't think Dorn would've questioned the Warmaster's decree any more than Russ did.

 

I'd also say that it's not 'being the most loyal' that qualified the Fists for the Terran job, but rather the overall character of the Legion. They were just better suited to a garrison/fortification type mission. Whereas the Wolves, especially with their dark reputation in the late GC, aren't the poster boys you want parading around the throne world. They're better served out in the galaxy, keeping the darkness in check.

[Calas Typhon]

 

Remember, he's the guy that almost killed Garro in denial/anger when he was told of Istvaan. He loved/trusted Horus as much as any of his brothers did (except maybe Sangy, Horus's best bro). I don't think Dorn would've questioned the Warmaster's decree any more than Russ did.

 

 

I'd also say that it's not 'being the most loyal' that qualified the Fists for the Terran job, but rather the overall character of the Legion. They were just better suited to a garrison/fortification type mission. Whereas the Wolves, especially with their dark reputation in the late GC, aren't the poster boys you want parading around the throne world. They're better served out in the galaxy, keeping the darkness in check.

 

Sanguinius was going to rip and tear Amit for voicing some :cuss about Horus and he was a pretty cool headed guy when he was not tits on head mad. 

 

The Garro situation was a difficult one because Dorn was just travelling home to sort his stuff out, then suddenly he gets approached by some dude who says his own legion he is in the colours of has gone traitor and most of his brothers have stuck two fingers up to the Emperor including Horus. I don't think that was more about Dorn loving Horus but more about the world turning on its head. Don't forget, Dorn was all for Garviel as a naysmith which is a pretty good point for this. If something sounded odd or there was a change in orders, I am almost certain that he would question things a bit more than Russ.

 

The Fists on Terra were chosen because they were the Preatorians of the Emperor, unless I remember incorrectly or things have changed, The IF fought alongside the Emperor more than any other Legion, and they were undoubtedly the most loyal legion there and the most logical choice with how they conducted warfare and defence. 

[Cerbero666]

I think Russ just has the Executioner vibe:

 

-He is loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium. Yes, he is independent, and follows his own rules. But at the end of the day is like the wayward son that still loves his father and would do anything he commands. He is loyal to the Emperor, even when Russ knows that he is just a weapon to be used (maybe even more than any other Primarch except Curze and Angron). Even so, he still fights for the Emperor and his dream, unlike Angron and Curze who get angry and depressed because of their self realisation of them being "tools" and not "sons".  He is loyal to the Imperium even when the Imperium and the people living in it see him and his legion as nothing more than cruel and savage barbarians. He is still willing to protect those that hate him. 

 

-He is independent. He is not taking orders from anyone if he doesn't want to, except the Emperor's. He followed Horus command at Prospero, but probably because he wanted to, because he reached the conclusion that Magnus had to be stopped and that he had gone too far. This is not so much an act of disobedience to the Emperor as it is an act of true (if blind) loyalty. He thought that Magnus was too dangerous for the Imperium, and that he had to be put down in order to save the Emperor's dream (ironically). He thought out of the box, is what he does, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. He doesn't care what others think of him and his legion as long as he does "the right thing". This along his loyalty makes him someone who would follow the Emperor to the last consequence, even when that implies killing his own brothers. 

 

-He is ruthless, but not without remorse. He would do anything to protect the Emperor's dream and the Imperium. Anything. Even killing his own brothers. But that doesn't turn him into a monster as Angron, who could kill a brother and enjoy it. Russ suffered for killing Magnus, even when he didn't like him, even when Magnus messed everything up and put the Emperor's dream in extreme danger. He felt remorse, and probably he felt remorse too for the execution of one (or both) of the missing legions and their primarchs. This makes he someone loyal but also someone with a high moral compass, someone who would do what has to be done, but whitout losing his sense of humanity. He is not a psychopath, he won't kill for pleasure. He is a weapon, and he knows it. He would kill only when its necessary, but when that moment comes, he would do anything to get the job done. And after that he would sheath the weapon again. He has self control, he is not an idiot, nor a psycho.  

 

-He is humble. He doesn't want laurels, or triumphal marchs or medals. Again, he knows he is a weapon, and that he has a greater purpose than himself. That's the reason he doesn't want whole worlds to rule, he doesn't really like to rule, he does it because is what he's supposed to do. He doesn't care if the Emperor gives him all the "dirty jobs". Well, he cares, but he would do it anyway without resentment because he doesn't want recognition. Unlike Perturabo who bitterly suffered because of his sense of being underestimated and despised by his father. 

 

-He is human. He is one of the most human primarchs out there, probably part of the top 3 in that regard after Sanguinius and maybe Guilliman. He understands common mankind, he shares time with them, he even behaves as one of them. He has a sense of humour, he can melt with common base soldiers as well (or even better) as with generals and rulers. He is someone who understands the needs of general mankind and would do anything to protect them. He has no sense of superiority, I believe he would even put mankind before his own legion. Again, because he knows he is a weapon and his purpose is to serve them. I think he understands the Emperor's dream better than most of the primarchs, even when we don't give him credit for that all that much. Dorn would follow the Emperor to the end of the universe because he is blindly loyal, and yes, he believes in His dream, but I'm not that sure he believes in humanity as much as Russ or Sanguinius, or even Guilliman. 

 

-He is a great warrior. If we attend to his reputation and (with a pinch of salt) to his FW rules, he is one of the best hand to hand combatants among the Primarchs, up there with Horus, Angron and probably Sanguinius. He could defeat almost any other primarch in combat giving the chance. And besides that, he is no fool (even when he has the reputation). He is cunning and wise, he can devise a plan and follow it sistematically, he has the mind of a hunter. So even when he cannot win a fight, he would win the battle (Night of the Wolf style). 

 

So with all of this ramblings above I think that, if I was the Emperor, I would also choose Russ as my Executioner. It has nothing to do with him being better or worse than other primarchs, as some people want to see it (for good or bad), but more with him being fit for the job. Of course, everything IMHO and with my own POV of the character.  

Edited January 29, 2018 by Cerbero666

[Indefragable]

One must ask if Russ, as with all the Primarchs:

 

A. what was he designed to be

B. what effect did Fenris have on him

C. how much of a delta (change) was there between A and B

D. What was the VI Legion pre-Russ

E. The Needs of the Empire (aka “the enemy gets a vote” clause)

F. What was the reality of points A-D when it all came together

Edited January 29, 2018 by Indefragable

[Scribe]

I like the loyalty vibe. I loathe with every cell in my body, the executioner angle.

 

It's comically flawed.

[kijamon]

In the Wolf King he doesn't buy in to that as their true purpose. It read to me like Russ starts to wonder if their true cause is that if/when the Imperium fails that the Wolves are to torch it to the ground.

[LJF]

I never understood why would anyone think that SW are better in any way than other legions, there was never any evidence or event that supports that only some hints in PB.

 

Here are actual facts: despite being heavily supported by SoS and Custodes SW failed to destroy TS and kill/arrest Magnus, they were almost wiped out by AL and needed to be rescued by DA, Russ lost in a duel against both Angron and Lion, furthermore he barely escaped Horus with his life and ended up in a coma

 

SW are actually the most pathetically portrayed legion in the series. So far there is not one single event where they actually shine. By comparison shattered legions pulled some amazing stuff despite their low numbers (Sharrowkyn, Meduson, Corax etc.) and I wont even start talking about the Ultramarines here.

 

And yeah Russ was established by Abnett as the emperors executioner but that was retconned by other authors in later books. Apparently he only considers himself to be the executioner rather than created as such by the emperor

Edited January 29, 2018 by LJF

[Runefyre]

I feel bad for new players, they're being quite misled considering FW describes Russ as the Emperor's executioner on the HH main page   

 

The "executioner" theme is far more nuanced than most people think; folks definitely attach far too much "authority" and "mary sue" to the descriptor. The Wolves are also described as the Emperor's "final sanction" and Russ as the "most loyal son"**. I think this indicates far more clearly that the Wolves were merely the Emperor's favored legion for jobs that required absolute fealty, such as sanctioning another legion. It does not mean the Wolves are "better" than the other legions at warfare, but rather just psychologically conditioned to be accustomed to highly classified/dreadful actions (this is clearly indicated in Inferno).

 

Regarding Russ accepting the changing of the orders for Magnus's sanction by Horus, that absolutely does not make Russ any less loyal. At that time he had no reason to distrust Horus, and I have not read anything that would give reason to believe that any other Primarch would have done differently.

 

**I'm of the opinion that Russ and Dorn as opposite sides of the same utterly loyal coin. Both are equally dedicated to the Emperor, just that one legion favors offensive deployments and the other defensive deployments.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I never understood why would anyone think that SW are better in any way than other legions, there was never any evidence or event that supports that only some hints in PB.

 

Yeah, it's weird how nobody got up in arms that the SoH are portrayed as absolute badasses in the opening triology, the Sons are amazing in ATS, the Ultras in Know No Fear etc. Yet when it's the Wolves in PB it's like some magical line in the sand has been crossed.

 

 

Here are actual facts: despite being heavily supported by SoS and Custodes SW failed to destroy TS and kill/arrest Magnus, they were almost wiped out by AL and needed to be rescued by DA, Russ lost in a duel against both Angron and Lion, furthermore he barely escaped Horus with his life and ended up in a coma

You do realise that most of that is post PB retcons/additions right? Alaxxes used to be a single Company engagement (with no mention of DAs), Yarant was barely worth mentioning at all. Plus you're being unnecceraily harsh on the Wolves/Russ with a couple of those imo, the Sons only survived because of magic escape plan, which is hard to plan for, and they still took what's generally portrayed as a harsher hammering than any of the Shattered Legions did at Istvaan. Unless it's been retconed recently, Russ and the Lion was a brawl, not a duel, and Russ was the one that eventually instigated the healing of the rift between the two Primarchs (which everyone seems to forget these days in favour of peddling DA-SW rivalry to the point of repeated violence ).

 

 

SW are actually the most pathetically portrayed legion in the series. So far there is not one single event where they actually shine. By comparison shattered legions pulled some amazing stuff despite their low numbers (Sharrowkyn, Meduson, Corax etc.) and I wont even start talking about the Ultramarines here.

Sadly I have to agree here. Their treatment by BL has been nothing short of terrible. From the Watch Packs, the Night of the Wolf (which sorry, should never have been written, and seems to have been included primarily to retcon/obscure what everyone took as references to the missing Legions in PB), making weird decisions (why are they even in Alaxxes in the first place? It's been years since Prospero, why don't they go back to Fenris to rearm and 'lick their wounds') and being repeatedly crushed and needing rescuing. It's just... bad. It really seems like BL decided that placating the haters was the bets course of action every time the VI Legion appear.

 

 

And yeah Russ was established by Abnett as the emperors executioner but that was retconned by other authors in later books. Apparently he only considers himself to be the executioner rather than created as such by the emperor

Which must therefore have been re-retconned by FW? As Runefyre said, FW have clearly portrayed Russ and the Wolves in the 'executioner role'. They undeniably did a bunch of nasty, unpleasant jobs the other Legions did not want/were deemed less suitable for, and they did not share the standard Great Crusade era aversion to inter Astartes violence.

 

Why does it matter if it was an adopted or ordered role for Russ? Nobody has pages of arguments about whether Dorn's role as the 'Praetorian', Perturbo's as the Besieger or Mortarion as the Chemical Weapons guy were chosen by the Emperor or assumed by the Primarchs themselves as a consequence of their characters and upbringing. What's so special about Russ that makes him so   contentious?

 

On a related note, it's weird that the pre-heresy Wolves seem to have had a similar set up to the Minotairs circa m41, yet the Minotaurs as the hatchetmen of the High Lords is noway near as contentious and divisive as the VI Legion, hatchetmen of the Emperor.

[Scribe]

It's because Leif, how it was presented by Abnett immediately stepped on two Legions, to the point other Authors came in to do crowd control after the fact.

 

It's not at all about the Wolves, it's how Abnett completely butchered their 30K reveal, by trying to take on attributes of the NL and WE.

 

It was wrong then, it's still wrong, and we are lucky better authors have tried (several times) to fix it, and yes Night of the Wolf is a good part of that.

[Kinstryfe]

Whether he was created an executioner or styled himself as one is mostly down to whether Big E designed each Primarch for a very specific reason or not. It's said he did in some places, but there's enough reason in my mind to assume it's unreliable, as The Emperor is pretty much portrayed as infallible at times. In reality I think the Wolves' key feature, among all of their positive traits, is their control. They very carefully cultivate a reputation of being far more wild and reckless than they are. Ever have that friend who was a complete badass, looked like he'd kill you for looking at him funny, won every bar fight he ever got in, but when nobody was looking you'd catch him making funny faces at little kids to make them laugh? THAT'S how I envision Russ and the Vylka.

 

Russ was the 2nd Primarch discovered, so he had ample time to cultivate the exact image he wished to convey. His Legion combined the brutal efficiency of the World Eaters with none of the lapses of control or discipline. The Vylka even have a built in resistance to Chaotic influence, intended or not, in the form of the Canis Helix, to the point where even some who go full wulfen remain loyal. Totally speculating, but one of the Lost was discovered next. While we don't know if all 20 were ever around at one time (do we? I will admit there may be something out there I don't recall), we do know that the later they were discovered the less likelihood that a Primarch would be looked upon as the role of censure. If we assume that to take down a Primarch you'd want to send your own Primarch, the discovery list doesn't show too many other good options for the Emperor's Mercy. Horus was being groomed for command and the rumor of being willing to take out troops he would ultimately command would not be good for morale. Three went missing. Ferrus, Fulgrim, Vulkan, Dorn next. I could see Dorn doing it. I'm not sure the other 3 would have the taste for it. I suppose Russ may have been the executioner because he had to be the "big brother" and spare others who would find the work too distasteful. Horus was the general, Ferrus the engineer, Fulgrim the paragon, Vulkan the humanist, and Dorn the champion. It would be interesting to know what the Wolves would have become if Russ had been found among the last.

[Leif Bearclaw]

It's not at all about the Wolves, it's how Abnett completely butchered their 30K reveal, by trying to take on attributes of the NL and WE.

 

It was wrong then, it's still wrong, and we are lucky better authors have tried (several times) to fix it, and yes Night of the Wolf is a good part of that.

 

Are they though? I just don't see that. The WE's thing was always being close combat (which they always shared with other Legions), insanity, and indiscriminate butchery leading to a dark reputation. The whole 'pre Angron they were the real executioner Legion' thing, as far as I'm aware, started with the Cerberus station fluff in Betrayal (and even then, that's even more nebulous as to whether that was the 'intended' role for the Legion than it is for the VI). However, Betrayal came out after PB, so that seems more like FW were giving the War Hounds attributes of the SW than the other way around. 

 

As for the NLs, there thing has always been, sadism, torture, excessive force and being scary, leading to a dark reputation. Again, iirc the idea of the VIII as a 'punishment Legion' really came in with their FW Black Book (which again, would be after PB), previously the brutality, shadow stalking, flaying etc was just how they fought their wars.

 

Whereas PB gave us Wolves that came across as pretty unique. They clearly weren't unfocussed, mad butchers or twisted sadists. They were certainly darker than we were used to, but the vibe they most gave off to me was 'professional killer'. Not soldiers, warriors, sadists or butchers, but killers. This was further substantiated by their use of enemy weapons and the colony drop in the Quietude war and presented us with a Legion that was inventive in a way we weren't used to seeing, but all that inventiveness went into the question 'how do you die as quickly and efficiently as possible?'. Hell, the Legion they most reminded of reading the book was the Alpha Legion. So what do the Wolves share with the WEs and NLs? Seems to be just the 'dark reputation' bit, and even that wasn't unique to those 2 Legions (in fact, Legions with 'good' reputations sometimes seem to be the minority).

 

But even if that's true, so what? Legions sharing attributes is nothing new. Nobody loses their that the IFs and IWs share attributes, or the AL, RG and NLs all being sneaky sods. The Ultras and EC (and arguably the SoH) all have a 'perfection/the bestest' theme (although the SoH also share some of the brutal, gangland aspects of the WEs). The WEs and BAs have both had the 'bloodthirsty berserker' theme (to the point that they used to be a specific rivalry between the 2). Hell, iirc Betrayal also lists the Scars as another brutal, 'take no prisoners' type of Legion. All 18 Legions have at least some attributes shared by some of others.

 

Pre PB, what were the Heresy era Wolves? The general concept seems to have been same as the 40k Wolves. 'Nice' Space Marines (hello Salamander attribute) with a norse/wolf theme and a rebellious/chaotic good streak. Should they have been left like that? What should have been done different, especially as 'why were the Wolves sent to Prospero instead of another Legion?' would still need answering (which, as I've said before, I reckon is the initial reason for the 'executioner' angle)?

 

So yeah, I can certainly understand not liking the book, or the change in character of the Wolves. But 'Abnett was ripping off the NLs/WEs' doesn't really add up for me, and I just don't get the level of vehemence and hatedom that's crept up around this issue. The attempts to 'fix' it just seem to add fuel to it, especially Night of the Wolf, as that's the only thing I've seen to rival PB itself in the arguments it instigates.

[StruManChu]

To throw in my 2c, because why not...

 

I hesitate somewhat to make this comparison, because I don't want to start a political poop-slinging contest immediately before I go to bed. However...

 

The Wolves of Fenris are, possibly, a lot like Donald Trump, and possibly also a lot like Klingons.

 

Just because someone says something about themselves, it doesn't make it unassailably true. Compare "I'm the least racist person you'll ever interview" with "I'm the most loyal of the Emperor's sons". There's a brazenness to both statements, being the kind of absolutist statement that simply cannot be proven or disproved. Loyalty has many facets and distinctions. The Lion is portrayed as being unswervingly loyal to the Emperor, though many of his legion are not and many of his own actions, with the benefit of a more objective view and hindsight, seem to fall short. Guilliman is loyal to the Emperor's vision and the idea of the Imperial Truth, and so conceives the Imperium Secondus, which could be seen as a traitorous act in and of itself. 

We know Russ isn't a bare faced savage, and that he simply portrays himself as one because it suits him to show himself as a brutal, uncompromising and angry being. It could also stand to reason that his boasts of loyalty fall into the same category. Now, I don't question Russ's loyalty, or that of the Wolves themselves, but to say one legion is the most loyal is hyperbole in the extreme.

What I believe the Wolves are, and I say this as one of the apparently few fans of their depiction in Prospero Burns, is obedient. Blindly so, in some cases, and that is the essence of their conflict with the Thousand Sons and Magnus. Ironically given their chosen colours, the Space Wolves see no shades of grey in the universe. There is what's right, and what must be done away with. This is how they can boast of being most loyal, even above the aforementioned Imperial Fists, who were called home to serve at the Emperor's side. I can imagine one of the Wolves saying "Real legions don't hide behind walls -  they take worlds in their hands and break them open'. To me, there's little distinction in the Wolves' eyes between a momentary lapse and an outright betrayal. 

It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that the reason that the Wolves became known as the Emperor's executioners was simply because they did exactly as they were told, at every point, without question. Magnus and Lorgar would question and debate the right course. Curze would take it too far. Angron would rile against being ordered around. Horus and Ferrus and the Lion would do it their own ways. Russ would simply don the hood, lift his axe and obey. The nature of his legion would mean it would be over quickly. Over time, as Fenrisian culture took over the Terran VI, the mantle of 'executioner' would take root and flourish, especially in a legion so enamoured with bravado and 'honour'.

 

Which is where the Klingon thing comes in. A lot of the time in Star Trek, the Klingons are wanting someone to challenge them, or are looking for ways to prove their honour, and I feel that the Space Wolves are the same. Saying 'We're the most loyal' is tantamount to daring someone to prove you wrong. If they rise to the bait, and you beat them in the ensuing brawl, you prove yourself without having to actually prove your claim. 

 

Just some thoughts, in any case. The thing I want to know is, why the hell did Malcador/Emps send Russ to Prospero? Any number of others would have been better, as has been mentioned. Sanguinius or the Khan could have done it without bloodshed (though the Khan is obviously notoriously unreliable). Do we have a reason anywhere?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I do see Russ as the Executioner largely based upon what he had to say to Angron in Betrayer... such a pompous arse IMO .

[Scribe]

 

Pre PB, what were the Heresy era Wolves? The general concept seems to have been same as the 40k Wolves. 'Nice' Space Marines (hello Salamander attribute) with a norse/wolf theme and a rebellious/chaotic good streak. Should they have been left like that? What should have been done different, especially as 'why were the Wolves sent to Prospero instead of another Legion?' would still need answering (which, as I've said before, I reckon is the initial reason for the 'executioner' angle)?

 

So yeah, I can certainly understand not liking the book, or the change in character of the Wolves. But 'Abnett was ripping off the NLs/WEs' doesn't really add up for me, and I just don't get the level of vehemence and hatedom that's crept up around this issue. The attempts to 'fix' it just seem to add fuel to it, especially Night of the Wolf, as that's the only thing I've seen to rival PB itself in the arguments it instigates.

 

 

Its not even about the Wolves, I think its about my absolute disgust for PB and how it presented the wolves.

 

What could they have been instead? I'm no author, but I dont think it would have even been that hard to make them unique.

 

Make them utterly savage, primal, ignorant (see: We dont draw from the Warp, we draw from Fenris which ALSO apparently was reinforced by a 40K release...) and LOYAL, completely, and fully.

 

If Abnett had written them that way, with clear perceptive differences between Legions, there would have been none of this angst that has followed us since 2009 (wow, I'm old).

 

Instead,

 

He wrote them as APPEARING Savage and out of Control, but they arent, they are just pretending someone has that quoted in their signature, its like a nail in my eye every time I see it. I may even have put them on ignore so I can avoid it the other day...

 

He wrote them as the most terrifying of marines in the eyes of the common soldier, soldiers who have seen other marines no less.

 

He wrote them as the legion willing to go the farthest, to do anything, and any pretense at loyalty was not even questioned, or implied. "none will go farther than us".

 

So its not so much how he presented the legion. After all the hardcore norse/viking thing he went for was great. However he made no effort AT ALL to balanced them against the other legions, and better authors have handled it better since.

 

I'd also argue that anyone having issue with Night of the Wolf misses the point greatly, but to me, thats practically worth a novel (and all the bickering we do after) just on its own.

[Slan Drakkos]

The were most certainly executioners for the emperor. With that said, they failed miserably at their job when it really mattered.

 

They are also the most rediculously redundant legion and overall worst choice to be the emprah's executioners. I cannot for the life of me understand why the emperor would have the boisterous, half drunk group of guys that howl be his secret hit squad instead of the three different legions of guys that can actually keep secrets.

 

I'm not trying to rag on the Space Wolves here, but I'm having trouble seeing how they are better at secret assassinations than the guys clad in midnight that attack from the shadows and leave gruesome reminders of what happens to traitors, the guys wearing black that can snipe the target and also strike from the shadows, or the guys that can infiltrate a group, have plans within plans, at are the absolute best spymasters in 40k.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Slan Drakkos