What was Russ/SW role before and after the Heresy?

[TheRealMcCagh]

People seem to put a lot of stock in the 'Executioner' title. But think about what an Executioner actually does. You don't send him on a dangerous mission to kill some high profile target, you don't pick him for his martial prowess, he doesn't do some honor duel for his liege. His job is to make a spectacle of killing a prisoner, and that's it. There isn't anything difficult about being an executioner, except having the ability to do whatever is asked of you no questions asked. If any other Primarch was asked to do something unspeakable, there would probably be some hesitation, bargaining for a different resolution, or maybe even refusal. Russ would just pull his sword out and go 'You want me to do it here or what?' It's not exactly an admirable trait, but I guess you'll need those kinds of people around when you are setting out to conquer the galaxy

[bluntblade]

Based on stuff like the "execute Perturabo" quote in Crimson Fist, I think Russ' executions are meant to amount to more than that. But I take your point.

[Huggtand]

People seem to put a lot of stock in the 'Executioner' title. But think about what an Executioner actually does. You don't send him on a dangerous mission to kill some high profile target, you don't pick him for his martial prowess, he doesn't do some honor duel for his liege. His job is to make a spectacle of killing a prisoner, and that's it. There isn't anything difficult about being an executioner, except having the ability to do whatever is asked of you no questions asked. If any other Primarch was asked to do something unspeakable, there would probably be some hesitation, bargaining for a different resolution, or maybe even refusal. Russ would just pull his sword out and go 'You want me to do it here or what?' It's not exactly an admirable trait, but I guess you'll need those kinds of people around when you are setting out to conquer the galaxy

 

You are only partly right 

 

Yes the wolves did´t question the orders from big E and did do the dirty works nobody else wanted. Where you are wrong is that they did do all the other things you say the don´t do. They were sent for dangerous high profile targets like Dulan or helping other expeditionary fleets with their martial prowess.

 

In fact nowhere is there mention that they are sent to execute prisoners at all. In the contrary Russ muses that they are sent against so dangerous foes that the losses for the legion would not be tolerated by anyone else of his brothers.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Huggtand

[Jarl Caldersson]

People seem to put a lot of stock in the 'Executioner' title. But think about what an Executioner actually does. You don't send him on a dangerous mission to kill some high profile target, you don't pick him for his martial prowess, he doesn't do some honor duel for his liege. His job is to make a spectacle of killing a prisoner, and that's it. There isn't anything difficult about being an executioner, except having the ability to do whatever is asked of you no questions asked. If any other Primarch was asked to do something unspeakable, there would probably be some hesitation, bargaining for a different resolution, or maybe even refusal. Russ would just pull his sword out and go 'You want me to do it here or what?' It's not exactly an admirable trait, but I guess you'll need those kinds of people around when you are setting out to conquer the galaxy

I think you are putting too much stock into modern term executioner. Executioner in 40k especially a primarch is going to be doing more than killing a person in chains. They are going to be a focused offensive force aimed at wiping out a single near impossible target at all costs. They won't care about the status of the population afterwards or holding the planet, only the target matters.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[Baluc]

Having read Inferno again, it seems to do its best to first point out that the Rout were no more capable or superior than their brothers. But it does outline how they are different and how they were used differently. 

- Once the majority of the Legions were up and going for the most part the Rout were left to do as they wanted for the most part. 

 

- When they were called it was often as punitive campaigns. For example destroying Rogue imperial commanders, or worlds

 

- Their punitive campaigns were savage and to some in Imperial command maybe too far

 

- They took part in several secret campaigns, of such import that they later had their minds wiped of specifics, and in some cases all details

 

- All the legions had reputations, but the SW had a different one. The WE and NL might have been called monsters but that was generally short hand for monstrous, but still post-humans. The SW were sometimes considered animals, something less than an Astartes due to the violence they seemed to enjoy and apply at every turn. 

 

- Worse than that they were alien even to their nominal brothers, and I think this thread is a good reflection of this. Few people understood the Legion, but the truth is they are more a weapon than any other legion. 

 

I have a few points I'd like to add. Historians have often wondered what makes a Spartan or a Roman Legionnaire what they are. Societies have tried creating faux- legionnaires before. They would get a Centurion, fun the creation of an army, train them etc. And, they would just not be Legionnaires. There is something special that gets distilled, and enters the minds of these cultures that makes the final product what it is. You couldn't take a Baalite, give him the SW geneseed and training and have a SW, but you could argue you could do that with an UM, he might have certain hang ups or mental quirks but for the most part he would behave like an UM. The Vlka Fenryka are Fenrisian first, Astartes second, and that makes them a so specific an Astartes that they will be almost impossible to compare. Not many of the legions consumed their Terran legionnaires culturally. Terran WS, are still Terran WS for example. 

The second point I would like to add, its that which is repeated through out Inferno. There is nothing too far, that the Emperor could command that the SW would not do. They might not be happy about doing it, but they would do it without question. Similar to the Custodes in a way, but the cause is different. The SW have need the structure offered by absolute authority because of their innate savagery of the Canis Helix, and the brutality of their parent society. You see it in ancient societies, the more bloody the society the stronger the central authority becomes. When authority becomes weak these societies fall apart. 

I have a feeling Abnett's frequent wolf motifs in relation to Hawser was to position the reader to ponder about the nature of a wolf, and human fear being an built in component. The idea of these  highly intelligent, and dangerous beasts just outside the walls in the dark, relentless, and omnipresent, is a reoccurring theme in Human Mythology. I believe this was the idea that Abnett was reaching for, the SW are for most unknowable, savage, but clearly intelligent. The NL are terrifying but in a way that only an intellegent creature with a developed culture and society would recognise, but the SW call up something primal in the target, and their allies. You run in Terror from the NL, you flee in panic from the SW. The early Greek and Asian peoples used to suspect Pan was the god of the battlefield. Pan is the root of panic, because once he struck the battle was over for the most part. 

 

Where I think he and FW have dropped the ball is with the play style of the army, and descriptions of the SW at war. The SW should be deadly serious at war, preparation, in-transit and deployment, the assault on the orbital station was perfect in this regard, they were serious, efficient, deadly, and savage. The ground assault was... flat, and Prospero was disappointing and fell into the Germanic invaders troupe. At war the Rout should undertake short bursts of overwhelming savagery and destruction. Falling back, and changing the angle of attack if resistance is too strong, emphasis problem solving on the tactical level, rather than strategic. 

 

Conversely the SW at rest should be almost comically relaxed, informal, and egalitarian as they walk themselves back from the mental edge they must operate on to fight the way they fight.

 

The building blocks are their I just think the final implementation fell apart because the distinction is so small and narrow that it requires an actual working understanding of psychology and experience with these concepts. But, almost worse its difficult to translate rules wise with a points, equipment, USR, system we use. I does inspire me to try my own hand at doing SW legion rules, and RoW though...

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

 

 Executioner in 40k especially a primarch is going to be doing more than killing a person in chains.

 

 

And yet this, almost verbatim, is what Angron mocks Russ over in Betrayer. I don't have the book in front of me, but the quote is like 'An execution is killing a man in chains brother, you've signed up for a fair fight here.'

 

So we have a historic executioner, a modern executioner, and Angron saying it. What evidence to we have that the title is any different in regards to Russ? Sent on dangerous missions? Every Primarch and Legion was sent on dangerous missions. It's not like they sat around saying 'O this one will be trouble, better send the Space Wolves. No way the Death Guard can handle it. Time to call in the big leagues.' Russ went to Magnus for help in the beginning of Thousand Sons. I can't think of a single time another Primarch sought out Russ specifically for help with a formidable foe.

[Jarl Caldersson]

"

I am told to demand millions of men and women from these new worlds, to make them take up arms in the Emperor’s hordes, and I am told to call this a tithe, or recruitment, because we are too scared of the truth.

 

We refuse to call it slavery.

 

I am loyal, the same as you. I am told to bathe my Legion in the blood of innocents and sinners alike, and I do it, because it is all that’s left for me in this life. I do these things, and I enjoy them, not because we are moral, or right – or loving souls seeking to enlighten a dark universe – but because all I feel are the Butcher’s Nails hammered into my brain.

 

I serve because of this “mutilation”.

 

Without it? Well, perhaps I might be a more moral man, like you claim to be. A virtuous man, eh? Perhaps I might ascend the steps of our father’s palace and take the slaving bastard’s head!"

 

Angron said Russ was a slaver and the emperor is only forcing the primarchs to enslave more planets. I don't remember him ever saying that Russ executed slaves. Also Angron was a raging lunatic and delusional, most of what he says should be taken with a grain of salt Sue to those butcher nails.

 

It wasn't that other legions didn't handle dangerous missions it's the type of mission they were sent on. You are twisting meanings. Perturabo was sent against the Hrud and took could have been killed, but his goal was execution of a specific target it was eradication.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[Baluc]

 

 

 

 Executioner in 40k especially a primarch is going to be doing more than killing a person in chains.

 

 

And yet this, almost verbatim, is what Angron mocks Russ over in Betrayer. I don't have the book in front of me, but the quote is like 'An execution is killing a man in chains brother, you've signed up for a fair fight here.'

 

So we have a historic executioner, a modern executioner, and Angron saying it. What evidence to we have that the title is any different in regards to Russ? Sent on dangerous missions? Every Primarch and Legion was sent on dangerous missions. It's not like they sat around saying 'O this one will be trouble, better send the Space Wolves. No way the Death Guard can handle it. Time to call in the big leagues.' Russ went to Magnus for help in the beginning of Thousand Sons. I can't think of a single time another Primarch sought out Russ specifically for help with a formidable foe.

 

Again you are either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the information. No one has said SW are in someway physically, or mentally superior to other Astartes, just different in a nonspecific way that let the legion undertake certain sorts of missions without the Emperor fearing that it would damage the soul of the legion. Such as taking on powerful Psyker empires, or torching loyal Imperial Worlds, as a hedge against a necrophage invasion. You need only look at the fragility of the traitor Primarchs to see the risks, Perterabo, Curze, etc. Angron is so obsessed with his primitive, basic, and undefined idea of justice for his old family that it drives him destroy the minds of his genetic sons. 

 

Think about this, once other Greek city-states started having professional armies the Spartans stopped being especially effective and often lost straight up fights to groups like the Thebian Sacred Band. But, Philip of Macedon who defeated Thebes, didn't invade Sparta. Nor did Alexander who destroyed the Sacred Band, and razed Thebes after greece rebelled. There was something unique about the culture of Sparta that made even a fight you had the upper hand in a difficult proposition to actually mentally follow through on.

 

In short stop looking at the shadows on the wall, and start looking at what is making the shadows, you are obsessing over the term and its technical definition. Its an author's best attempt to translate a ethereal conceptual meaning to the readers mind. 

 

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Point of order: In “A Thousand Sons” three (3!)separate legions and their primarchs (3 again!) were assigned to a specific campaign.

Russ didn’t go to Magnus for help, he sent a pack to tell Magnus to stop dragging his feet and commit to the plan.

 

If anything, Magnus delaying his Legion is a sign of incompetence or negligencd on his part.

 

Now historically, executioners were the men who swung the blade or pulled the lever on prisoners who had already been arrested and hopefully placed on trial for the crimes. They didn’t actually do the hunt or pursuit themselves

 

Russ has instead been sent to find his target, force them into submission and then carry out the sentence...which had been placed by the Imperial Court, as Inferno reminds the reader several times.

 

So there is a bit of a difference in how a traditional/historical executioner performed their task and how Russ performed his task.

[Huggtand]

 

 

 

 Executioner in 40k especially a primarch is going to be doing more than killing a person in chains.

 

 

And yet this, almost verbatim, is what Angron mocks Russ over in Betrayer. I don't have the book in front of me, but the quote is like 'An execution is killing a man in chains brother, you've signed up for a fair fight here.'

 

So we have a historic executioner, a modern executioner, and Angron saying it. What evidence to we have that the title is any different in regards to Russ? Sent on dangerous missions? Every Primarch and Legion was sent on dangerous missions. It's not like they sat around saying 'O this one will be trouble, better send the Space Wolves. No way the Death Guard can handle it. Time to call in the big leagues.' Russ went to Magnus for help in the beginning of Thousand Sons. I can't think of a single time another Primarch sought out Russ specifically for help with a formidable foe.

 

 

I don´t really know what you want to say? Do you mean that the wolves only was sent to kill people in chains? 

 

If you read the thread you see that most of us say that the wolves wasn't military better than any other legion. The difference was in their mindset that they did things that other legions would either find distasteful, underneath their legion, or otherwise questionable either military or ethical. This is something you can find many examples of in both FW and BL publications. 

 

Edit: I think Balucs post above hits the nail better than me 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Huggtand

[TheRealMcCagh]

Did you meant to reply to me Baluc? The only point I was trying to make is people acting like the title 'Executioner' is synonymous with 'badass warrior.' That is factually incorrect. The title of Executioner doesn't really mean anything, because A. we don't know how he got it, and B. it's not particularly demonstrative of anything (short of what we know an executioner actually is). So it seems strange when it's always used to pump Russ and the Wolves up. It would be like saying Angron must be a great fighter because he is 'The Red Angel.'  And I also never meant to imply SW are better or worse than any other legion, I was replying to 

 

 

 

 They were sent for dangerous high profile targets like Dulan or helping other expeditionary fleets with their martial prowess.

 

 Which, while true they were sent on those missions, isn't anything particularly special. They weren't sent on those missions because they were Space Wolves, and only a Space Wolf could do it. They did those missions because they were Astartes, and only a Space Marine could do it. All these differences between legions is fun and cool, but it's just make up, bells and whistles. At the end of the day, and Astartes is an Astartes is an Astartes.

 

I'm not sure where you were going with the ancient Greek parallel, Space Wolves are special because their reputation is special? If you're saying the thought of a Space Wolf is more terrifying than an actual Space Wolf, I can see what you mean. Maybe I'm missing something in translation

 

I'll try to phrase my point a little better. Executioner isn't a title I associate with respect or ferocity, or anything of the sort. Emperor's Champion? Dude must be a badass duelist. Emperor's General? Guy must be a great general with a tactically superior mind. Emperor's Voice? Guy must have great oratory skills or something. Emperor's Executioner? Ok... I guess he just kills guys when the Emperor tells him to. It's not that the title doesn't fit Russ, but I don't sit back and go 'wow, thats the Emperor's Executioner!'

 

- And here's the quote I was talking about Caldersson

'you took it a step too far, little executioner, now you fear how this will end.' He stepped closer, his amusement turning sick and savage. 'Executions are the murder of helpless prey, Russ. What you've commited to here, "brother", is a fair fight.'

Edited February 1, 2018 by TheRealMcCagh

[Huggtand]

I still think you are missing the point many tries to make.

 

No one has said that the "title" executioner is synonymous with "badass warrior". It is only you who brings it up in this thread. All posters above says the opposite, that the wolves are no better or worse than any other legion. All have different strength and flaws   

 

The point I was trying to make was that in the 30k fluff FW and BL is forming, the label executioners in regards to the wolves is not the same as our real world examples. Your point was that in our history executioners don´t go on dangerous missions, or get picked for martial prowess against certain targets and that is correct. But in the 30K fluff the wolves as the "executioners" do that.

 

And no , it's not that they are martaly better than the other legions just that they are made for these kind of missions according to FW (Inferno).

 

 

As a side note I actually love the "Night of the wolves". It really shows the difference between WE and SW and especially between poor Angron and Russ (even if Russ is a bit of a dick against Angron). That sequence is pure gold in audio   

Edited February 1, 2018 by Huggtand

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s unscientific and ahistorical to suggest that someone born somewhere is naturally disposed to acting a certain way. Suggesting there is something special about Fenrisians because of where they are born is ‘exceptionalism’ and is looked down on. Suggesting Fenrisian culture and environment shapes a unique personality is true. Suggesting it wouldn’t be possible for someone to be born on Fenris and not fit in with the Ultramarines or Blood Angels is also true, as evidenced by all of human history.

[Huggtand]

It’s unscientific and ahistorical to suggest that someone born somewhere is naturally disposed to acting a certain way. Suggesting there is something special about Fenrisians because of where they are born is ‘exceptionalism’ and is looked down on. Suggesting Fenrisian culture and environment shapes a unique personality is true. Suggesting it wouldn’t be possible for someone to be born on Fenris and not fit in with the Ultramarines or Blood Angels is also true, as evidenced by all of human history.

Thats true

 

I think that what FW implies with that certain legions as the have certain roles, for example the wolves, is that the combination of the geneseed and the culture of the legion made them better suited mentally for certain jobs. Like when you foster a certain culture for black ops operators doing really bad stuff in our modern time. If you don't condition the operators for that kind of jobs they will break.

 

Now of course it's a fictional fantasy sci-fi universe so there is a certain stretch of the science part sometimes

Edited February 1, 2018 by Huggtand

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

Your point was that in our history executioners don´t go on dangerous missions, or get picked for martial prowess against certain targets and that is correct. But in the 30K fluff the wolves as the "executioners" do that.

 

 

Then why does Angron, a Primarch in 30k, mock Russ for the title? Saying it is simply killing helpless prey? I would understand if there is a disconnect between what executioner means in reality, and what it means in 30k, but the fact that Angron says it within the literature, tells us that an executioner in 30k is the same as what it is in the real world. So why are we making a distinction? 

[Baluc]

It’s unscientific and ahistorical to suggest that someone born somewhere is naturally disposed to acting a certain way. Suggesting there is something special about Fenrisians because of where they are born is ‘exceptionalism’ and is looked down on. Suggesting Fenrisian culture and environment shapes a unique personality is true. Suggesting it wouldn’t be possible for someone to be born on Fenris and not fit in with the Ultramarines or Blood Angels is also true, as evidenced by all of human history.

A better word is unique, there are several unique traits different cultures impart on their members. See; China modesty virtue. What you are describing is "better", which is not what anyone has said. Given your example I think we are agreeing, I may just be tripped up on the double negative. 

 

@TheRealMccagh

 

You may have said my ideas more plainly. The idea of the SW speaks to something feral in the human mind, in Inferno the author even implies that the SW actively play this up. I assume we all are in agreement that the SW aren't actually animals. I don't like the term executioner, but the general idea fits. The one who kills, he's faceless, certain, effective and unknowable.

 

 

Your point was that in our history executioners don´t go on dangerous missions, or get picked for martial prowess against certain targets and that is correct. But in the 30K fluff the wolves as the "executioners" do that.

 

 

Then why does Angron, a Primarch in 30k, mock Russ for the title? Saying it is simply killing helpless prey? I would understand if there is a disconnect between what executioner means in reality, and what it means in 30k, but the fact that Angron says it within the literature, tells us that an executioner in 30k is the same as what it is in the real world. So why are we making a distinction? 

 

Because that is what brothers do... make fun of each other, jocky for position, etc. 

[Huggtand]

 

 

 

Your point was that in our history executioners don´t go on dangerous missions, or get picked for martial prowess against certain targets and that is correct. But in the 30K fluff the wolves as the "executioners" do that.

 

 

Then why does Angron, a Primarch in 30k, mock Russ for the title? Saying it is simply killing helpless prey? I would understand if there is a disconnect between what executioner means in reality, and what it means in 30k, but the fact that Angron says it within the literature, tells us that an executioner in 30k is the same as what it is in the real world. So why are we making a distinction? 

 

Because that is what brothers do... make fun of each other, jocky for position, etc. 

 

 

And because we do not have any examples in the fluff where the wolves act in the historical role of executioner, ie just killing prisoners, but have plenty of examples where the "role" have a different meaning. 

 

More generally, I feel that it's just the term executioner many people get stuck on instead of see what it FW and BL means with it. Is "the emperor's sanction" or "the emperor's hatchetmen" less offending nicknames? They are also used in the fluff. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Huggtand

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Then why does Angron, a Primarch in 30k, mock Russ for the title? Saying it is simply killing helpless prey? I would understand if there is a disconnect between what executioner means in reality, and what it means in 30k, but the fact that Angron says it within the literature, tells us that an executioner in 30k is the same as what it is in the real world. So why are we making a distinction? 

 

Because Angron is insane, bitter, not the sharpest knife in the drawer to begin with and trying to start a fight? Hardly the time or the character for a detailed treatise on the realities of the VI Legion.

 

Seriously, I wouldn't read too much into what Angron says, he's hardly an objective source, any more than Xaphen was in The First Heretic when he said the Ultras absorbed the missing Legions.

 

[TheRealMcCagh]

Then should we read too much into what Space Wolves say about themselves? Reputation seems to be everything to them. You can see it in the attitude of the watchpacks sent to the other Primarchs. It's all just posturing, of course they're going to refer to themselves as the Emperors Sanction this, and we're so dangerous that. Grinding their axe in front of Guilliman (literally), talking down to Azkaelleon. It's like they're the Wizard of Oz. When it comes down to an actual fight, sure they kick some butt, but they also get their butts kicked. And it seems to be usually the later more than the former. So from an outside perspective (like us, as a reader) I just roll my eyes at 'executioner' and the 'you all need to fear us' attitude. Within the lens of the universe (like if I was actually in 40k), hell ya, I'd be terrified of the space wolves, they're bunch of savages. This might seems like a crude comparison, but I see the Space Wolves like I'd see a dictator's army. Marching back and forth and flashing their weapons around, hoping that the saber rattling alone will deter a conflict. But when the other side doesn't back down (like Angron) the fight ends poorly.

Edited February 1, 2018 by TheRealMcCagh

[Leif Bearclaw]

Then should we read too much into what Space Wolves say about themselves?

What do you mean 'read too much' though? Should we accept as gospel that the Wolves are the single toughest, scariest and meanest Marines under the sun, just because they say so? Of course not, no more than any other Legion/Chapter saying they're the best (which they all kinda do). At what point are we reading too much into a given passage? What should we take from Sigismund talking up the Wolves in Horus Rising when chatting to the Mournival, for example? That's not the Wolves bigging themselves up, but an external, knowledgeable (we can only presume, being Sigismund) individual making the claim. The question really then becomes whether the reader believes Sigismund has an 'accurate' view on the 'reality' of the setting.

 

Edit: May have been Torgaddon, not Sigismund that said that. Going from memory and don't have the book to hand to check .

 

I'd say you've read too much into what Angron said, giving what was clearly a deliberately provocative act the weight of 'in universe objective source'. You ask why he mocks Russ? Because he's trying to start a fight. There doesn't need to be some great, underlying truth to his statements, he's being a troll (just with rather more serious consequences )

Edited February 1, 2018 by Leif Bearclaw

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

Then why does Angron, a Primarch in 30k, mock Russ for the title? Saying it is simply killing helpless prey? I would understand if there is a disconnect between what executioner means in reality, and what it means in 30k, but the fact that Angron says it within the literature, tells us that an executioner in 30k is the same as what it is in the real world. So why are we making a distinction?

 

Because Angron is insane, bitter, not the sharpest knife in the drawer to begin with and trying to start a fight? Hardly the time or the character for a detailed treatise on the realities of the VI Legion.

 

Seriously, I wouldn't read too much into what Angron says, he's hardly an objective source, any more than Xaphen was in The First Heretic when he said the Ultras absorbed the missing Legions.

Angron also says he is going to kill the emperor and sit in his throne. Whatever Angron says can be thrown out the window as facts. He was trying to start a fight, he has nails in his head scrambling his brain, he is bitter toward Russ as Russ got to keep his brother while Angron did not. You keep putting much of your argument in Angrons 2 sentences neverminding the multiple other primarch both traitor and loyal, who are much more stable, saying otherwise. So let's drop the whole 'what Angron said is fact".

 

As far as getting their butt kicked, let us remember they are a broken legion after Prospero and that Horus specifically tasks people to harass the SWs the whole time. They are not Marines+1 and Russ does make mistakes. Let us also not forget that this mass-war is NOT what the SW's situated themselves for. They are meant to have short engagements over a single planet, to kill/subdue a single target. This whole Galaxy at war, without their often used element of surprise, meant that SWs were fish out of water.

 

I know people tire of it, but it suits the SWs this is their flaw.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

Because Angron is insane, bitter, not the sharpest knife in the drawer to begin with and trying to start a fight? Hardly the time or the character for a detailed treatise on the realities of the VI Legion.

 

Seriously, I wouldn't read too much into what Angron says, he's hardly an objective source, any more than Xaphen was in The First Heretic when he said the Ultras absorbed the missing Legions.

Angron also says he is going to kill the emperor and sit in his throne. Whatever Angron says can be thrown out the window as facts. He was trying to start a fight, he has nails in his head scrambling his brain, he is bitter toward Russ as Russ got to keep his brother while Angron did not. You keep putting much of your argument in Angrons 2 sentences neverminding the multiple other primarch both traitor and loyal, who are much more stable, saying otherwise. So let's drop the whole 'what Angron said is fact".

 

As far as getting their butt kicked, let us remember they are a broken legion after Prospero and that Horus specifically tasks people to harass the SWs the whole time. They are not Marines+1 and Russ does make mistakes. Let us also not forget that this mass-war is NOT what the SW's situated themselves for. They are meant to have short engagements over a single planet, to kill/subdue a single target. This whole Galaxy at war, without their often used element of surprise, meant that SWs were fish out of water.

 

I know people tire of it, but it suits the SWs this is their flaw.

 

Did you mean to quote me here? I totally agree that Angron, being mad and deliberately provocative, should not be taken as objective gospel regarding the Wolves.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Negative, I was writing when you posted before I could lol. (Darn phone) but I was adding into your point that Angron isn't a example to be taken and telling the other individuals to stop using his source as it is a compromised source. Edited February 1, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[LJF]

Honestly, all this "executioner vs not really executioner" discussion just shows how BL utterly failed handling SW and give them a proper place in the series. They are an inconsistent mess which is confusing because it really shouldn't be a rocket science with such a straight forward legion (good old William King tbh)

 

Prospero Burns started... something, which is strange because it wasn't even a proper SW novel to begin with, they were barely in it and I don't remember them doing anything spectacular, it was mostly just dialogue. And yet other authors got really butthurt it seems and nerf hammer started falling down. They are treating a book series like some stupid MMORPG with BL being overzealous devs. I would expect something a bit classier.

[TheRealMcCagh]

I thought it was Tarik that says that. The two captains are talking about how tough they/their legions are, and Tarik says (to diffuse the situation) c'mon guys, we all know Space Wolves are the toughest. You could even argue that that is a jab at the Space Wolves, not acquiescing to them. And I'm not saying all we have is Angron, I'm saying Angron's response to the title executioner works against what Caldersson is saying. Executioner in 40k means the same thing it does to us, so when Caldersson earlier said 

 

 

 

 Executioner in 40k especially a primarch is going to be doing more than killing a person in chains. They are going to be a focused offensive force aimed at wiping out a single near impossible target at all costs. They won't care about the status of the population afterwards or holding the planet, only the target matters.

 

 

And Huggtand says

 

 Your point was that in our history executioners don´t go on dangerous missions, or get picked for martial prowess against certain targets and that is correct. But in the 30K fluff the wolves as the "executioners" do that.

 

 

And I'm saying thats not necessarily true. Executioner isn't some vague term in 40k. I'm not putting Angron's word above anyone. I'm just saying it's a debate about what the term might mean in 30k. But it's not some title of repute in 30k that we should sit around and acknowledge how hard it must have been to earn. Everything about it is vague. And if we look at what the Wolves and Russ actually accomplished, not supposedly did, or were implied to have done, their plate is pretty empty.

 

 

 

As far as getting their butt kicked, let us remember they are a broken legion after Prospero and that Horus specifically tasks people to harass the SWs the whole time.

 

 

Horus not being a total idiot isn't a testament to the toughness of the Space Wolves. He does the same to the Khan and Medusan and every other loyalist that he passes over. He sends Sanguinius and the Lion to the corners of the galaxy so he doesn't have to worry about them. Does he sit around a fret over the big scary wolf? No, because Russ can (and is) dealt with pretty easily. He doesn't even need to do the dirty work himself. Just rile Russ up and let him loose, he doesn't even order him to do anything, he knows what Russ will do because he's predictable. 'Hey man, I know the Emperor told you what to do, you have a written order what to do, you have Valdor telling you what to do, but c'mon man, we both know what really needs to be done. I also know you've been warned I might be a traitor, but don't believe it, that's just what the enemy wants you to think.'

 

 

 

 

 

 . Let us also not forget that this mass-war is NOT what the SW's situated themselves for. They are meant to have short engagements over a single planet, to kill/subdue a single target. This whole Galaxy at war, without their often used element of surprise, meant that SWs were fish out of water.

 

I agree with that. In fact, a whole legion of Space Wolves seems weird. I can imagine a thousand Fists manning a wall, or a thousand UM walking around an army encampment. But a thousand Space Wolves sitting around just doesn't seem normal. It's like anything above a pack would just be getting in each others way. Which I guess fits the wolf motif, it's not like there are packs of hundreds of wolves.

Edited February 1, 2018 by TheRealMcCagh