Angelus no more... Malevolence is Now!

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

When the meta changes in 40k it's easier to adapt cause the costs are a lot lower (a Tactical squad in 30k costs 3 times more than One in 40k)

It's called game balance.

 

On topic, though - whining and complaining isn't going to speed up the writers at FW. Someone had to be last, and I don't think that being the last legion fully fleshed out is actually problematic. I understand that DA's players don't want to wait another year or two (or three tbh) for their full legion rules (+characters and primarch), but I'm sure they'll be worth the wait when they do drop (and the First will get the awesomely unique rules/fluff that they deserve)?

 

 

I think he means dollar-wise. Still, now we're getting the plastic Heresy-era squads, so the cost is going down quite a bit.

[Master Sheol]

 

DA before facing with the NL slowing them to reach Terra had to face also the dark mechanicum too so DA vs DarkMech Will bè included in the Black book too

I am Sorry for DarkMech players cause they have to wait for the most delayed legion to get some love :D

I know that someone has to be last but DA according to FW had to be Just After prospero with BA (being that battles vs the DarkMech in the first part of heresy) but they got delayed several times

If they was meant to be the last from the start (like wS players knew) i would accept It better but we have being costantly delayed and i have to wait 4/5 years more than what FW originally announced

It's the same time 40k takes for an entire edition :(

It's not Just the long wait but also the constant delays that burn a lot

And about always losing a game i know that DA have new rules but having built an army with the vanilla models from Red book and using the vanilla rules i am now in the ankward position to building again my army from almost scratch with the FW costs

When the meta changes in 40k it's easier to adapt cause the costs are a lot lower (a Tactical squad in 30k costs 3 times more than One in 40k)

There hasn’t been constant delays. They’ve been pushed back 1 book. The Space Wolves and Thousand Sons were pushed back from book 4 to book 7. Thats constant delays.

DA/BA were announced as the 5th book After Inferno years ago and every time FW pushed back Inferno the DA/BA book was pushed back together so with the last delay DA had one delay more that TS/SW (from book 5 to book 9) and maybe later, Who knows

[Master Sheol]

 

 

 

 

When the meta changes in 40k it's easier to adapt cause the costs are a lot lower (a Tactical squad in 30k costs 3 times more than One in 40k)

It's called game balance.

 

On topic, though - whining and complaining isn't going to speed up the writers at FW. Someone had to be last, and I don't think that being the last legion fully fleshed out is actually problematic. I understand that DA's players don't want to wait another year or two (or three tbh) for their full legion rules (+characters and primarch), but I'm sure they'll be worth the wait when they do drop (and the First will get the awesomely unique rules/fluff that they deserve)?

I think he means dollar-wise. Still, now we're getting the plastic Heresy-era squads, so the cost is going down quite a bit.

Yes.

Pity that DA should use the resin MK2 mostly according to the upgrade kit

I ignored that and bought only mk3/mk4 DA pads and some DA helmets (they look cool on mk3 too) and my DA army has only 10 assault marines in mk2 :D

[Theredknight]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Write to FW

The reply was not satisfactory (Just "Sorry if you are sad but -put a lot of reasons here- wait for your turn there is already a lot of cool upgrade sets for DA and generic kits for all legions"

 

I ended buying extra pots of dark green (and black and bone) for 40K DA

 

My HH DA (and any order from FW) are Frozen until the DA Black book (probably in 2019-2020)

I’m sorry but what were you expecting? They’re not going to suddenly start pumping out DA kits because they have one guy asking for them.

I am not asking that but if It goes the way it seems DA will have their rules about 8 years after the HH project started

I played 3 HH games with my vanilla in black against IW, SoH and AL and all three times i was wiped out due to other players having the same toys i have and much more

I am not gonna plays two years more in this situation so the better solution is to freezer HH and play 40K where i do have fun

There is literally no other response they could give, though? There are already upgrade kits released, and the current release schedule doesn't have the Dark Angels getting unique units for a while. Also, the DA are being done later because, as the events of the Heresy go, the Dark Angels didn't really do much until much later in the Heresy. The Istvaan Legions basically had to be done first, as well as the Wolves/Thousand Sons. After that, Ultramarines allowed them to do Calth, allowing them to do the Cults/Heretics/Imperial Army lists, which left the BA/WS/DA, and they've already given their explanation on why they're doing those in the order they have.

 

I do sympathise, but what were you actually expecting the response to your letter to be? You say that you don't expect them to start churning out DA models, but aren't satisfied with the response given. What would you want them to do? Personally apologise for leaving them so late?

I chuckled slightly when I read this. People get burned, end of.

I have heard it no end from some people in a gaming group ‘when will xenos get their rules’ well..never really.

 

Besides, dark angels are bloody ruinous and can easily content with legions who have their special units. I got smashed by a speeder / Jetbike army at thrones once, it was disgusting.

I digress.

I have BA, been waiting for yonks too, in the words of animal mother ‘better you than me’ :-D

The Xenos will get their rules when they take part in a major conflict during the Heresy itself! :p

 

I've been waiting for the Blood Angels for ages as well, and really want to see what they do for the White Scars/Dark Angels. As you've said, no matter what order they do it in, somebody will get left until last. I'll agree that the Dark Angels do have a really unfortunate track record, I mean, do you want to release the Legions in numerical order, at which point the Sons of Horus would be one of the last Legions done, and a whole bunch of the Istvaan Legions get left even later?

Instead, they've done it in terms of story importance, and let's be honest, the Dark Angels didn't exactly do much during the Horus Heresy. The Black Library team at least gave them the Thramas Crusade, but even that just consists of the Night Lords pestering them and stopping them from leaving rather than any big set-pieces. The Dark Angels thing had always been that they turned up late to the party on Terra, then their homeworld somehow got mysteriously destroyed for an unknown reason that is entirely unrelated to their Primarch going missing. Entirely. Unrelated!

 

Pretty much all the Legions that have already been done are the Traitors, and the Loyalists with the major battles. The Blood Angels/White Scars, until Black Library came along, only really did the Siege of Terra. The Blood Angels at least got Signus, which allows Forge World to do some awesome daemon stuff, and they need to essentially make a whole Daemon Codex again thanks to 8th coming out, so are more "important" to write about. Sadly, it boiled down to "do we also include the White Scars, with their plotline of 'harassed by the Alpha Legion until they broke free and take part in the Siege', or the Dark Angels, with their plotline of 'harassed by the Night Lords until they break free too late to do anything but brawl with Leman Russ'".

Do t forget hide and seek with curze

[foamy248]

 

I think he means dollar-wise. Still, now we're getting the plastic Heresy-era squads, so the cost is going down quite a bit.

 

Oops :P Yeah, the plastic kits are really good in terms of making 30k more affordable :)

[Robbienw]

Claims that the Dark Angels didn't do much in the heresy are ridiculous :lol: 

 

They actually fought against the Sons of Horus at Diamat before Istavaan 5, so I think they were the first loyalists who didn't come from traitor legions to fight the traitors.

 

They then fought the Night Lords for around 2 years at Thramas, finally breaking and scattering the Night Lords as an effective large force, destroying about 1/4 of their force in doing so, and capturing several members of their senior leadership.

 

After this, the half of the main force left under Corswains command then fought against the Death Guard under the command of Typhus for some time, against whom they were winning according to the end of Angels of Caliban.

 

The other half of the main force under the Lion went to Macragge and were trapped in Imperium Secundus for several years, but during which time they engaged and destroyed Word Bearer and World Eater forces, and the Lion defeated and captured Kurze, removing him from participating in the rest of the heresy.

 

The force under the Lion then went on to break out of the ruinstorm with the Ultramarines and the Blood Angels.

 

After that the Dark Angels preceded to attack and destroy the traitor homeworlds of Chemos and Barbarus.

 

Then at some point after that they united with the space wolves and headed for Terra, forcing horus to confront the emperor early.

 

Added to that, there was a large independent Dark Angels force which saved Leman Russ and the Space Wolves from being *utterly wiped out* by the Alpha Legion at Alaxxes. There were smaller Dark Angels forces involved the Battle for Tallarn and in other engagements in the Heresy as detailed in some of the Heresy black books as well.

 

So no, the Dark Angles didn't do 'not exactly much' during the heresy.

[Master Sheol]

Yes. And still FW reply me claiming that DA entered action later in the Heresy :D

 

Simply they don't have a clue how to make an army that has six different wings with different ways to fight a war and the big quantity of special units they Need (at least one per Wing or even more)

This is IMHO why they keep pushing back the First legion

 

I won't be surprised if they will delay again the DA (maybe making a Black book about the martian civil war or Tallarn)

[m_r_parker]

I thought we were done with this...

 

Master Sheol - if you think FW are going to give DA 6 unique units (or even more) then you are going to be dissapointed. Even the most diverse of Legions (and I’m specifically using the SW here) don’t have that many different Legion-specific units, and the DA various wings wouldn’t qualify them to be that different - you’ll be able to fill out the majority of the wing structure using the standard Astartes entries. Easily.

 

What has been discussed (as in I’ve talked to Alan Bligh about) was giving the Dark Angels specific RoW and rules that allow you to swap out weapon types for more exotic Dark Age era weaponry, and to shift about units in the FoC to enable you to run pure ‘Wing lists. They’ll be a couple of special units thrown into the Legion as a whole, along with a couple of names characters - just like every other Legion that has had their ruleset. If you’re expecting more, then I’m afraid you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

I’ve already discussed in this thread the various reasons why DA have been moved to the rear of the schedule, and while you can have your opinion that they don’t know how to present the wings in rules form - there are other business orientated reasons why this isn’t the case.

 

If you choose to believe that there will be another book between Malevolance and the DA book, again that’s your opinion but nothing has been indicated to say that this could happen. FW know marines sell, just look at their catalog of models for 30k, so theyre not going to pass over the DA unless there’s a solid business reason for them to do so. Martian civil war was discussed right at the beginning, but has completely fallen off of the schedule. Tallarn has been discussed at a high level as a possibility, but has never been put onto the schedule at any point. Plus any further books will delay the consolidation of Legions into a single red book, and the updating of the basic Legionnes Astartes list - something that they’ve said is a high priority after the DA book drops.

 

In all you’ve given a perfectly good idea of what to do - put the 30k to one side for a bit and game in another system for a while. Go play 40k for a bit, maybe investigate some other systems - because if you keep going like this you’re only going to drive yourself crazy. Not to mention that you’re going to be setting some crazy expectations that are never going to be met, the book when it does come out will feel like a complete letdown even if the level of background / rules / models goes above other Legions. Take a breather, check back next year at the HH Weekender, as then we’ll probably have a decent ‘first look’ at the plans for the next book - and the focus of the discussion at other events will be on Malevolance, until it’s release.

[Theredknight]

M_r Parker

 

Or play another legion for now which does have all unique units. It’s what FW want!

Still didn’t stop me collecting BAs though

[Lord_Caerolion]

Claims that the Dark Angels didn't do much in the heresy are ridiculous 

 

They actually fought against the Sons of Horus at Diamat before Istavaan 5, so I think they were the first loyalists who didn't come from traitor legions to fight the traitors.

 

They then fought the Night Lords for around 2 years at Thramas, finally breaking and scattering the Night Lords as an effective large force, destroying about 1/4 of their force in doing so, and capturing several members of their senior leadership.

 

After this, the half of the main force left under Corswains command then fought against the Death Guard under the command of Typhus for some time, against whom they were winning according to the end of Angels of Caliban.

 

The other half of the main force under the Lion went to Macragge and were trapped in Imperium Secundus for several years, but during which time they engaged and destroyed Word Bearer and World Eater forces, and the Lion defeated and captured Kurze, removing him from participating in the rest of the heresy.

 

The force under the Lion then went on to break out of the ruinstorm with the Ultramarines and the Blood Angels.

 

After that the Dark Angels preceded to attack and destroy the traitor homeworlds of Chemos and Barbarus.

 

Then at some point after that they united with the space wolves and headed for Terra, forcing horus to confront the emperor early.

 

Added to that, there was a large independent Dark Angels force which saved Leman Russ and the Space Wolves from being *utterly wiped out* by the Alpha Legion at Alaxxes. There were smaller Dark Angels forces involved the Battle for Tallarn and in other engagements in the Heresy as detailed in some of the Heresy black books as well.

 

So no, the Dark Angles didn't do 'not exactly much' during the heresy.

 

All of which got added later into the series of both the Forge World and Black Library books. Before that, as I'd said, the Dark Angels didn't do much for the bulk of the war. As such, when Forge World drew up their initial plans for the order in which to do the Legions, the Dark Angels would have been less urgent to get released, compared to the Traitor Legions, the Istvaan forces (which included the Imperial Fists given their importance to the defence of the Imperium), Ultramarines (for Calth), and the Space Wolves.

[carlisimo]

They gave us WS/BA/DA players legion rules and rites of war when it became clear how long it would take for us to get the full black book treatment. I’m grateful for it because yes, playing a vanilla army was a little dull.

 

If you keep playing a vanilla army two years later, that’s on you. Everyone playing a legion not in the earliest books went through that, and you hardly need to use a legion-specific rite of war. Though most vanilla armies should be easy to turn into an Ironwing force.

[Saphrael]

 but I'm sure they'll be worth the wait when they do drop (and the First will get the awesomely unique rules/fluff that they deserve)?

That's part of the concern though, that it won't be worth the wait and they won't do it well. Black Library have well and truly screwed up the DA and the Lion, and the 40K studio has consistently done the same.

 

Obviously these are not the same organisations as FW, but it certainly makes DA fans feel burned. It's also fair to say that despite doing an excellent job overall, FW has not executed all legions equally well (in terms of black book background, models or rules). So there's always going to be someone who gets the short end of the stick, just as there's always going to be someone who comes last.

 

A large part of the frustration and concern from DA fans--at least the ones I've spoken with about this--is that we were going to be the least and now we're also going to be the last.

 

What has been discussed (as in I’ve talked to Alan Bligh about) was giving the Dark Angels specific RoW and rules that allow you to swap out weapon types for more exotic Dark Age era weaponry, and to shift about units in the FoC to enable you to run pure ‘Wing lists.

To be honest I don't find this very comforting. More exotic Dark Age era weaponry and different RoW for each of the wings are the least compelling aspects of the DA to me. What's drawn me to them since 2nd ed. 40k is:

• Knightly & monk aesthetic
• Juxtaposition of supreme honour and sinister 'no matter the cost' attitude
• The earliest portrayals of the Lion (pre-Asperger)
• Layered secrecy, intertwined multi-level structure and symbology/heraldry reminiscent of Masonic and Templar orders

I understand that this is a personal preference and that others may be more interested in a focus on the pre-Caliban 'First Legion' aspect, but after the constant disappointment in the BL HH realisation of the DA potential, my last hope was that Alan Bligh would finally do them justice in a black book.

 

Alan was famous in the community for his research, historical appreciation and ability to breath life into the characters, stories and setting, so I was hoping to see him focus on the elements I think set the DA apart.

 

If I get the following...

• More effective rules to represent the Calibanite swords and sword mastery
• Rules and background for Corswain that situate him around Sevatar level of coolness/effectiveness
• A unique unit that functions similar to IF Templars represented by robed models with swords
• Detailed visual representations of the symbology/heraldry of the six wings
• Detail on the internal structures of DA hierarchy 

... I will never complain about a Gav Thorpe novel on these forums again. You have my solemn word as a Knight of Caliban.

 

We'll obviously have to wait and see.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, you'll definitely get the info on the internal structures of the DA hierarchy, and it's fairly certain you'll get a robed unit, or at least an upgrade kit.

 

Also, what Legions weren't done well, background wise? I'd thought they were all pretty well received?

[Saphrael]

Also, what Legions weren't done well, background wise? I'd thought they were all pretty well received?

I didn't say any weren't done well. I very deliberately said they weren't all executed equally well. That is to say some have higher quality writing/rules/models than others.

 

I guess that's a bit of a redundant, because of course they're not perfectly equal in quality of background or balance of rules.

 

I was just trying to highlight that some legions are inevitably going to have sculpts, rules and background that aren't executed as well as others (a la DA in 40K). In my experience a lot of DA fans have been worried it was going to be us that would fall into that 'less well executed' category, given our track record.

[Robbienw]

 

 

Claims that the Dark Angels didn't do much in the heresy are ridiculous

 

They actually fought against the Sons of Horus at Diamat before Istavaan 5, so I think they were the first loyalists who didn't come from traitor legions to fight the traitors.

 

They then fought the Night Lords for around 2 years at Thramas, finally breaking and scattering the Night Lords as an effective large force, destroying about 1/4 of their force in doing so, and capturing several members of their senior leadership.

 

After this, the half of the main force left under Corswains command then fought against the Death Guard under the command of Typhus for some time, against whom they were winning according to the end of Angels of Caliban.

 

The other half of the main force under the Lion went to Macragge and were trapped in Imperium Secundus for several years, but during which time they engaged and destroyed Word Bearer and World Eater forces, and the Lion defeated and captured Kurze, removing him from participating in the rest of the heresy.

 

The force under the Lion then went on to break out of the ruinstorm with the Ultramarines and the Blood Angels.

 

After that the Dark Angels preceded to attack and destroy the traitor homeworlds of Chemos and Barbarus.

 

Then at some point after that they united with the space wolves and headed for Terra, forcing horus to confront the emperor early.

 

Added to that, there was a large independent Dark Angels force which saved Leman Russ and the Space Wolves from being *utterly wiped out* by the Alpha Legion at Alaxxes. There were smaller Dark Angels forces involved the Battle for Tallarn and in other engagements in the Heresy as detailed in some of the Heresy black books as well.

 

So no, the Dark Angles didn't do 'not exactly much' during the heresy.

All of which got added later into the series of both the Forge World and Black Library books. Before that, as I'd said, the Dark Angels didn't do much for the bulk of the war. As such, when Forge World drew up their initial plans for the order in which to do the Legions, the Dark Angels would have been less urgent to get released, compared to the Traitor Legions, the Istvaan forces (which included the Imperial Fists given their importance to the defence of the Imperium), Ultramarines (for Calth), and the Space Wolves.

Well yes, I'm not disagreeing with any of that, just taking issue with your incorrect claim that the dark angels didn't do exactly much during the heresy.

 

Some legions had small amounts of fluff on their actions in the heresy. But that has changed over the last decade or so with all the heresy stuff coming out and the fluff being added to.

 

I'm not saying it's wrong that FW put any of these legions last in the release priority order.

 

Obviously someone has to be last. Waiting is a bit annoying, bit as long as the Dark Angels don't get terrible models like the space wolves have, then I will be happy :lol:

[carlisimo]

If I get the following...

• More effective rules to represent the Calibanite swords and sword mastery
• Rules and background for Corswain that situate him around Sevatar level of coolness/effectiveness
• A unique unit that functions similar to IF Templars represented by robed models with swords
• Detailed visual representations of the symbology/heraldry of the six wings
• Detail on the internal structures of DA hierarchy

... I will never complain about a Gav Thorpe novel on these forums again. You have my solemn word as a Knight of Caliban.

We'll obviously have to wait and see.

The swords and sword mastery have you hitting and wounding marines on 3+ and you want more? In a legion with broad access to rad grenades? :cuss!

 

A friend who was at the seminar says that the six wings' rules and symbology should be well-covered in Angelus, and they are the reason FW felt the legion would take too long to do this year relative to the BA and SW who specialize in or two types of lists and have fewer widely-available special weapons to try to balance. FW's one big caveat is that they're only going to look at the DA's early-Heresy actions, which probably means ignoring Luther altogether (but that probably means Corswain is in). So you may not get the full hierarchy, just the pre-Caliban part with the Lion bolted onto that framework.

 

It'd be even worse if they decided to take the Alpha Legion approach of saying it's all being kept secret, including from the players. No one said that would happen, it's just something that's bugged me in 40k codexes about deliberately mysterious armies, and in the Alpha Legion entry in Book 3. It also means robes aren't a guarantee if they’re more Calibanite than Terran. I was hoping they’d say that they intended to present the Lutherites - Black Library gave them a great entrance to the Heresy in Wolf King, and a lot of people are waiting for them. But it sounds unlikely. (Likewise, I’m worried as a White Scars player that they only mentioned Chondax, where very little happened other than a fleet engagement against a half-hearted blockade with fake AL capital ships - there wasn’t even much boarding to write about.)

 

Rules-wise, Templar Brethren are among the worst units in the game for their points, so I wouldn't hope for a unit that functions similarly! But yeah, a sword unit seems likely. No word from FW. I'd say the Ultramarines in Tempest marked a low point for legion-specific releases given that there was only one new legion in that book, and Thousand Sons were the high point... who knows where the three remaining legions will end up.

[rendingon1+]

Ok, I don't blive for a second that they're gonna ignore Caliban part and focus on Terrans because it doesn't make sense. At all.

[Warhead01]

Ok, I don't blive for a second that they're gonna ignore Caliban part and focus on Terrans because it doesn't make sense. At all.

It might. I know that the Master of Mankind was mentioned in one of the books implying a model. So if it's early First Legion it's an in for the Big E. 

I don't think it will happen like that but it could.

 

 

 

If I get the following...

• More effective rules to represent the Calibanite swords and sword mastery
• Rules and background for Corswain that situate him around Sevatar level of coolness/effectiveness
• A unique unit that functions similar to IF Templars represented by robed models with swords
• Detailed visual representations of the symbology/heraldry of the six wings
• Detail on the internal structures of DA hierarchy 

... I will never complain about a Gav Thorpe novel on these forums again. You have my solemn word as a Knight of Caliban.

 

We'll obviously have to wait and see.

 

Regarding the Swords and sword mastery, as mentioned there are rules already what more do you want? 

The swords would have to have lower/better AP values or there seems little point. It's situational anyway. 

I can't get excited about a robed templarish sword unit. Don't personally like units full of robed marines. looses meaning. 

Your last two points I would think to be no brainers for a book featuring Dark Angels. 

Personally I hope that there are some named characters from Terra in the book. That to me is more interesting because it would open the door things they have never gone in depth about. I really hope they're are more weapons from the age of darkness in the book. Plasma is nice but give me more death rays! 

[carlisimo]

The Horus Heresy IS the Age of Darkness, you’re probably thinking of the Dark Age of Technology where a lot of Custodes equipment comes from.

 

Death rays are Martian and weren’t really part of the Unification Wars. The early-Heresy Dark Angels probably have less volkite than anybody.

[Fire Golem]

The Horus Heresy IS the Age of Darkness, you’re probably thinking of the Dark Age of Technology where a lot of Custodes equipment comes from.

Death rays are Martian and weren’t really part of the Unification Wars. The early-Heresy Dark Angels probably have less volkite than anybody.

I’m pretty sure there’s a note in one of the earlier books that Volkite weapons were originally the standard issue weapon for Marines, but as the legions grew the Bolter over took it.

[bluntblade]

There is indeed

[Sandlemad]

@ Saphrael: All of that sounds great - that “Juxtaposition of supreme honour and sinister 'no matter the cost' attitude” really crystalised something I had never consciously realised about the 30k DA - so we can only live in hope!

 

On the question of emphasis between Terran and Calibanite, I’d think FW has a good shot. The shift in legion culture from pre- to post-primarch is something that has been dealt with in every FW book with every legion, even where it didn’t have precedent in the BL books. It’s ironic that the DA were the first to get that treatment in wider 40k background through Gav's work and that they’ll be the last to receive it in FW’s treatment, but it’s been done and done well with (say) the Raven Guard in Extermination and the Iron Hands in Massacre.

 

Interestingly I think there’s a good chance that the early unification wars 1st legion background could be well-integrated into some of the points that drew you in. The honour/grim pragmatism is not reducible to Calibanite knightliness and Terran brutality but it would be interesting to see how that interaction came about outside of the character of Astelan. 

 

Similarly that layered secrecy should, in theory, come from a (potentially difficult or fractious?) blend of old Terran Mithraic/Masonic-style soldier cults with the traditions of the Order. FW dealt with these… let’s call them weird legion bodies before and well; thinking here of the background FW brought in for the Thousand Sons Red Orders or the wolves’ Cult of Morkai. In both cases they were written as far more than their respective battlefield roles. It seems reasonable to expect that the six wings will be explored as more than as simple rites of war, and that they won't be the sum of the DA's focus. In Tempest, the BL-attested Prosperine cults were only dealt with about as much as the 'new' Red Orders.

 

I guess what I’m saying is that there’s a lot in the DA background that plays to the strengths of the FW black books. To a certain extent, the groundwork for them has been done for other legions, which were themselves influenced by earlier elements of the DA’s portrayal. 

[Saphrael]

The swords and sword mastery have you hitting and wounding marines on 3+ and you want more? In a legion with broad access to rad grenades? :cuss!

Dude, is that tone really necessary?

 

Yes, having a close combat specific legion benefit that you cannot use if you want access to AP2 (beyond a Paragon Blade) is a problem, especially given the prevalence of 2+ saves in legion lists. So is having a legion specific weapon that bounces off the armour of a standard load-out sergeant, especially given the alarming increase in availability of AP2 at initiative weapons.

 

I resent that the best way to make DA effective is to spam equipment like molecular acid rounds. The thing that sets a DA legionnaire apart from his cousins is his legion's armouries? Not his decades of service and experience under the Emperor? Not his mastery of martial styles otherwise lost to humanity? Not the tactical and strategic genius inherited from his genesire? Entirely wrong emphasis for me. But as I said earlier, I recognise that is personal taste.

 

FW's one big caveat is that they're only going to look at the DA's early-Heresy actions, which probably means ignoring Luther altogether (but that probably means Corswain is in). So you may not get the full hierarchy, just the pre-Caliban part with the Lion bolted onto that framework.

Calibanite culture and the Order's way of war was fully integrated by the middle of the Great Crusade, the Lion started doing that as soon as he joined the legion after reconnecting with the Emperor. I don't see why focusing on the early-Heresy would exclude them, but I obviously wasn't in the seminar. I'm also perfectly happy not hearing about Luther and that asinine sub-plot. Leave that bollocks for the Scouring... or better yet, never deal with it at all.

 

It'd be even worse if they decided to take the Alpha Legion approach of saying it's all being kept secret, including from the players. 

Agree completely, but it's FW, I don't think they'll do that. I was worried they wouldn't give us enough visual guides to symbols and heraldry though.

 

I was hoping they’d say that they intended to present the Lutherites - Black Library gave them a great entrance to the Heresy in Wolf King, and a lot of people are waiting for them.

Personally I wasn't a fan of the introduction of yet another faction in the DA, nor the fractured loyalty it implied. I don't know of any DA fans who want to see more representation of that, so I don't know who these ''lot of people'' are, but that's clearly subjective.

 

Rules-wise, Templar Brethren are among the worst units in the game for their points, so I wouldn't hope for a unit that functions similarly! 

There's nothing wrong with the rules for Templar Brethren, they represent a wonderful niche of PA equipped CC PA killers and they function really well in that role. The problem is their costing and thus their efficiency. I'd be delighted to receive a "Knights of the Order" unit equipped with Calibanite Warblades and artificer armour at a reasonable cost.

 

Regarding the Swords and sword mastery, as mentioned there are rules already what more do you want? 

The swords would have to have lower/better AP values or there seems little point. It's situational anyway. 

I know there are rules already, I very clearly said I wanted ''more effective" rules. To be honest my gripe could be fixed by access to a weapon that counted as a sword for the purposes of the Mastery of the Blade rule but also struck at AP2. Hell, I'd settle for a +2 S, AP2, Unwieldy sword at the price of a powerfist.

 

I can't get excited about a robed templarish sword unit. Don't personally like units full of robed marines. looses meaning. 

Your last two points I would think to be no brainers for a book featuring Dark Angels. 

Personally I hope that there are some named characters from Terra in the book. That to me is more interesting because it would open the door things they have never gone in depth about. I really hope they're are more weapons from the age of darkness in the book. Plasma is nice but give me more death rays! 

See, everything you don't want to see is exactly what I want to see and vice versa. Clearly this is subjective and one of the challenges of DA - they represent so many different things.

 

Edit.

@Sandlemad - Sensational post mate. Excellent points and well articulated. I agree and you've reminded me I have reasons to be slightly optimistic. Thanks!

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

Claims that the Dark Angels didn't do much in the heresy are ridiculous

 

They actually fought against the Sons of Horus at Diamat before Istavaan 5, so I think they were the first loyalists who didn't come from traitor legions to fight the traitors.

 

They then fought the Night Lords for around 2 years at Thramas, finally breaking and scattering the Night Lords as an effective large force, destroying about 1/4 of their force in doing so, and capturing several members of their senior leadership.

 

After this, the half of the main force left under Corswains command then fought against the Death Guard under the command of Typhus for some time, against whom they were winning according to the end of Angels of Caliban.

 

The other half of the main force under the Lion went to Macragge and were trapped in Imperium Secundus for several years, but during which time they engaged and destroyed Word Bearer and World Eater forces, and the Lion defeated and captured Kurze, removing him from participating in the rest of the heresy.

 

The force under the Lion then went on to break out of the ruinstorm with the Ultramarines and the Blood Angels.

 

After that the Dark Angels preceded to attack and destroy the traitor homeworlds of Chemos and Barbarus.

 

Then at some point after that they united with the space wolves and headed for Terra, forcing horus to confront the emperor early.

 

Added to that, there was a large independent Dark Angels force which saved Leman Russ and the Space Wolves from being *utterly wiped out* by the Alpha Legion at Alaxxes. There were smaller Dark Angels forces involved the Battle for Tallarn and in other engagements in the Heresy as detailed in some of the Heresy black books as well.

 

So no, the Dark Angles didn't do 'not exactly much' during the heresy.

All of which got added later into the series of both the Forge World and Black Library books. Before that, as I'd said, the Dark Angels didn't do much for the bulk of the war. As such, when Forge World drew up their initial plans for the order in which to do the Legions, the Dark Angels would have been less urgent to get released, compared to the Traitor Legions, the Istvaan forces (which included the Imperial Fists given their importance to the defence of the Imperium), Ultramarines (for Calth), and the Space Wolves.

Well yes, I'm not disagreeing with any of that, just taking issue with your incorrect claim that the dark angels didn't do exactly much during the heresy.

 

Some legions had small amounts of fluff on their actions in the heresy. But that has changed over the last decade or so with all the heresy stuff coming out and the fluff being added to.

 

I'm not saying it's wrong that FW put any of these legions last in the release priority order.

 

Obviously someone has to be last. Waiting is a bit annoying, bit as long as the Dark Angels don't get terrible models like the space wolves have, then I will be happy

 

 

Well when Black Library first started, and Forge World began their own thing, the Dark Angels entire contribution to the Horus Heresy was "arrive late with the Space Wolves, then get their home planet blown up". As such, when the Legions first got divided up as to who was more important, the Dark Angels were at the bottom of the list. Since then, the Dark Angels have had events added so that they don't just sit on their hands doing nothing. Even then, they hardly have the big set-piece battles that most of the other Legions have. There's Istvaan, the Fall of Prospero, Calth, Signus Prime... and getting chased by the Night Lords before sitting around while Guilliman shows off his organisational skills. Of all the major battles of the Horus Heresy, the Dark Angels weren't present. It's a shame, as I absolutely love them both in 40k, and most likely pre-Heresy as well, so they deserve some time in the spotlight. 

 

I really want to see what it meant to be the First Legion. Show us why the Dark Angels were one of the most successful of all the Legions during the Crusade.

[carlisimo]

 

 

The swords and sword mastery have you hitting and wounding marines on 3+ and you want more? In a legion with broad access to rad grenades? :cuss!

Dude, is that tone really necessary?

No, it wasn't. I’m sorry about that.

 

Yes, having a close combat specific legion benefit that you cannot use if you want access to AP2 (beyond a Paragon Blade) is a problem, especially given the prevalence of 2+ saves in legion lists. So is having a legion specific weapon that bounces off the armour of a standard load-out sergeant, especially given the alarming increase in availability of AP2 at initiative weapons.

 

I resent that the best way to make DA effective is to spam equipment like molecular acid rounds. The thing that sets a DA legionnaire apart from his cousins is his legion's armouries? Not his decades of service and experience under the Emperor? Not his mastery of martial styles otherwise lost to humanity? Not the tactical and strategic genius inherited from his genesire? Entirely wrong emphasis for me. But as I said earlier, I recognise that is personal taste.

I see Mastery of the Blade as representing their dueling prowess relative to other Astartes, which is a pretty specific skill but seems to fit their culture well. The Ravenwing Protocol RoW has a monster-hunting rule that's very Caliban-approprite (reroll wounds against T5 and up), as well as giving them unique riding skills (go into Ongoing Reserve, reroll Sweeping Advance rolls). Ironwing Protocol gives you better gunners (in squadrons) and better drivers than average, along with frightening Dreadnoughts (anti-monster monsters?) and improved close-ranged shooting. I can't figure out what the last one represents, but the rest feel like a proper manifestation of specialized martial styles.

 

The strength-boosted swords help more against Monstrous Creatures and lighter Dreadnought types, which feels right too.

 

That does mean that you need to run a legion-specific RoW to get any stylistic bonuses other than in swordfights. That's probably okay if there are six to choose from and they cover all the typical deployment styles.

 

The lack of at-initiative AP2 might be a bigger deal, but it's on the verge of asking to be better at everything. I think it'll depend on what FW does with upgrades in general. They got cheaper in Inferno, which I don't think was a good idea. If that stays, I would expect an arms race in legion-specific wargear.