The Thousand Sons Legion Trait: That Extra 6"

[Prot]

Please...no puns... but I was thinking, 'what the heck am I going to do with an extra 6"?'

 

I kept thinking of it from an offensive angle.something like Warp Time, or that 24" smite. 

 

Then it hit me, and this may make some of you laugh but what made me think of this was looking at some of my opponents lists, and tournament lists, etc. I started thinking about how many of them have 1-2, or even 3 Culexus. I also started thinking about what a brutal pain it can be to get off powers against Nids; Shadow in the Warp. Not to mention that 1D6 psychic test Strategem.

 

Then I realized... our trait is defensive, not offensive. I know this is nothing new but the more I think about it this really pleases me because I think of how 'shut down' I feel against some of those lists. My Death Guard for instance can largely only buff Poxwalkers from the very back lines. My Thousand Sons can have entire turns of failing 75% of their tests... very frustrating especially for armies that have such a heavy reliance on the Psychic phase even if it isn't as punishing as 7th edition.

 

The extra 6" will very often put me out of Culexus range especially. I know a lot of Grey Knights (including my own) carry minimum 1 Culexus just to ensure psychic domination. Nids don't even have to try, it's actually quite scary what they can do with the psyhic phase along with their own defensive measures built in.

 

So if you think there's a better reason for it.... anything at all, let's hear it. I'd like to open a _positive_ discussion on where the greatest advantage of this trait is our list designs.

[Skallagoose]

I like your thinking. I think its more defensive as well. Its keeps your important stuff further from the action while still viable. I just wish we received something that benefited the entire army, not just our HQs. It will really lead to just supreme command detachments i think.

[Skerr]

It sounds like it is both offensive and defensive depending on your mission, objectives, target priority and to a larger degree meta, play style and overall perspective.

 

It sounds great for keeping certain units at bay, protecting key units with range and also great for hitting deeper in your enemies DZ if you have a game or another part of your army that requires more aggresive tactics. It's actually very versitle and be used so depending upon character load out.

 

Along with webway, warptime, deep strike my first thought was overwhlem the enemy from multuple sides and the extra 6" alongside stronger spell selection, more potential casters, cheaper more capable squad leaders, certainly helps.

 

The trait in of itself is cool though along with other variables its exponentially better than what we had.

 

Throwing a temporal or Glam behind you from mid table on one of your objective campers that just got deep struck! I mean heck, possibilities are endless...

Edited January 31, 2018 by Skerr

[Archaeinox]

I think it's great.

 

I struggle to think ahead one or two turns, so it will be a challenge for me to remember that we have it. As a result, I am a very reactive player. So, the trait doesn't really help me in the case of sudden enemy units appearing in my deployment zone, for example. But it would come into play when my disc sorcerers advance 12+d6" AWAY from the nasty stuff that just arrived and then hit them at around 21" away assuming they came within 9" (or targeting another unit that would otherwise be out of range for Index: Thousand Sons in the exact same situation after a sorcerer bugs out).

 

My initial "plan" is to go hard one game and put 20 rubrics in Webway, 9 Rubrics in Webway (this squad has 8 warpflamers), and Dark Crystal Ahriman up there right into the middle of the entire 20man unit. Think of it this way: If Warptime was 3" and you attempted to do this, it's unlikely that you'd have the warpflamer unit within range. Now, with 9" Warptime, you can bubble wrap Ahriman in the stupid unit and make the flamer guys take that critical penguin waddle 1" forward.

 

I think our legion trait is quite appropriate. I fail powers all the time and let me tell you having a +1 wouldn't have fixed that.. I roll a LOT of 3s, 4s and 5s for psychic tests. Why the heck would I want +1 to cast lol

 

TL;DR: IF our new powers go off successfully, I believe that the additional range is valuable in offense and defense. The tactical toolbox, even if you just have every Scarab and Aspiring knowing Glamour or Weaver for example, is too good to pass up. Tzaangors need +1 invul and everyone else is dead? Weaver at 24" from a freaking ASPIRING SORCERER.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Archaeinox

[Prot]

Well I know with Grey Knights, created pre Smite nerf, the +1 was quite good for that reason.

 

That being said I find it interesting that you say you often fail tests by such a large margin that the +1 is moot.

 

Here I am planning on making my DP or ES my Warlord for that very +1 alongside Ahriman, but you make a good point.

[Skerr]

I went back and forth on if 6"+ range or if +1 to cast would have better and believe we are better off with the added range.

Arch mentioned warptime and there are 1 other 3" that can benefit. An extra 6 inch on Death hex and gift are great also, you can press forward 6 or hang back 6.

I think the plus 1 looks good though may not pan out as often. Ahriman being the litmus test, or your custom warlord w apprpriate trait.

Though one can argue the extra 6 may not be needed on a lot of you 18" spells though it still feel it is better.

The plus 1 does not prevent double 1s on perils does it?

Edited January 31, 2018 by Skerr

[Raven1]

@Skerr, i dont think so because the result perils happens because of the roll not the number of the dice combined.

[Skerr]

Thanks, was pretty sure it did not.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I have not played with the new codex as of yet, I shall remedy this on Thursday and Friday.  

However cursory inspection of the trait and some thoughts on my game play issues in the past lead me to believe it is a very useful trait. 

The limitation regarding distances on psychic powers is a major balancing factor. most spells that are offensive, and some defensive, tend to max out around 18 inch range.  Most of our spells are 18 inch ranges for these purposes, and with us they become a 24 inch range.  This includes smite.  Bare in mind the "Average" warhammer 40k table is a 4x4 or a 4x6, sometimes a 4x8 if were looking at bigger games. 

This means we can (From the board edge) sling our hatred halfway across the board + movement distance which for alot of sorcerers is either 6, or 12 due to discs. 

Giving us a much better gradient of target, and allowing us to keep our big bads (Exalted, Ahriman, Princes) safe while still putting them in good places for support and spell casting.

I cannot tell you the number of times I adjusted a Sorcerer or Ahriman to give warptime to a model 3 inchs away and they get either sniped, or charged, or the spell failed completely and they were stuck with their manhood in the wind.  *NOT* a good feeling.  But with this new found 9 inch distance? the utility is great.  Our casting ability for someone like Ahriman or another sorcerer with mutiple "18 inch" spells has just gone through the roof. 

Ahriman can stand at the center of the table (the 24 inch line of a standard 4 foot) and hit any target on any board edge with LOS if we give him 3 damage-dealer spells, meaning that support characters have very few places to hide from some of our tricks. 

Firestorm, infernal gaze, and doombolt all come to mind. (I think theres one more I cant remember) that are direct damage "pick" target, and of course any buffs we have will be able to reach far further on the field which means our support can be further away.  

Overall; its a really good trait, though not having LD mitigation was not a nice thing GW did to us. lol. 

 

Edit Side-Note; Bolt of Change from the Daemon Tzeentch Lore on a prince OR on a sorcerer (After spending spell swap, because as of this moment RAW the spell familiar DOES give us daemon lore access!) can also use that, so in reality we have 4 "direct damage pick target" spells, and a couple that are indirect just "closest target" spells. Doombolt and Bolt of Change both ave 8's to cast naturally so it bares keeping in mind you will need focus and some dice re-rolls to get them off with consistency. 

My standard list has 3 sorcerers that have an Innate +1 to cast beginning of the game with no help. Ahriman, Warlord Exalted on disc, and a Termie Sorcerer with familiar, so this will help a great deal with consistency of damage output especially on a singular target. If this target happens to be out-front? such as a tank or a large beasty? sling a couple of easy to cast smites added to all of these spells. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Sonoftherubric21

[The Yncarne]

At the risk of not being "positive", I believe this legion trait is situational because it is very difficult to create a plan around. This isn't like Alpha Legion where you can count on the -1 to hit while crossing the board or Night Lords wherein you can attempt to maximize the negative morale modifiers. Once the first turn is done, you're likely to be evaluating whether it is better to move your models to maximize the trait bonus or move units where they can minimize/maximize damage. That's why I don't think this is all that great.

 

I don't face culexes in my group, and the most likely benefit I see at this point in time is:

• extended range for the 3" powers means I don't have to "join" the unit to use it
• greater range for targeting my own backfield objective holders

Maybe actual games may change my mind. Then again, I was unable to manifest 66% of my casts last game and I'm really down on this game in general so that is affecting my opinion. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

Dice can always turn against us; the Warp is a fickle mistress. That will probably always be an issue for us, gotta just plan around it and hope when tossing cast dice. 

[The Yncarne]

Dice can always turn against us; the Warp is a fickle mistress. That will probably always be an issue for us, gotta just plan around it and hope when tossing cast dice. 

 

Of course. Doesn't change my feeling about the range trait's utility though - just that if you can't get a power off the range isn't really helping. 

[yergerjo]

Without using a demon detachment...

 

So pending FAQ, what are the thoughts on using the Spell Familiar strategem to give an Asp. Sorc the Gaze of Fate from Tzeentch to farm the reroll?

 

Otherwise it feels wasted to have THAT be one of the 2 castings of a DP.

 

Discuss

[Paladin777]

In a similar fashion though, if you’re playing alpha legion and your opponent’s dice refuse to show any 3’s (or 4’s, etc) than that trait isn’t going to help much either.

 

The fact of the matter is that while yes something like alpha legion is very good and useful, so is ours. It just requires us to be more ‘tricksy’ which in my opinion is very fluffy and good.

[BoomWolf]

Without using a demon detachment...

 

So pending FAQ, what are the thoughts on using the Spell Familiar strategem to give an Asp. Sorc the Gaze of Fate from Tzeentch to farm the reroll?

 

Otherwise it feels wasted to have THAT be one of the 2 castings of a DP.

 

Discuss

 

 

Eeer, why a waste?

 

The tzeentch table isn't all that great honestly.

Boon of change is a bad spell.

Bolt of Change isn't that great.

Treason is the merriest hail in the game.

Flicker Flames is only useful with large squads of shooty daemons (or a daemon engine with daemonforge active I guess)

Gateway is highly situational.

 

Gaze of Fate is the only tzeentch spell you really want to be casting non-stop, and in a list without engines or daemon squads-you are likely not to look into these spells much.

[yergerjo]

 

 

Without using a demon detachment...

 

So pending FAQ, what are the thoughts on using the Spell Familiar strategem to give an Asp. Sorc the Gaze of Fate from Tzeentch to farm the reroll?

 

Otherwise it feels wasted to have THAT be one of the 2 castings of a DP.

 

Discuss

 

Eeer, why a waste?

 

A waste because the DP is one of 2 characters with the option to take from the Tzeentch list, so the DP is the only natural option for the power when it would self benefit from powers off the other tables.

 

If we run more rubrics heavy, I'd think we could better afford to have an AspSorc farm the reroll than the DP which is usually closer to being Denied by range.

[BoomWolf]

Why not just have the rubric buff up the prince and save yourself the CP though?

 

You got the range boost, and its unlikely you want to spread out THAT thin (especially with cabal casting encouraging us to stay in a tight formation)

 

 

Thinking of it.

We have 2 of our casting boosts contradict each other x_x

Trait that lets you spread thin, and a stratagem that tell you to pack up.

[bozo69pd]

 

Dice can always turn against us; the Warp is a fickle mistress. That will probably always be an issue for us, gotta just plan around it and hope when tossing cast dice. 

 

Of course. Doesn't change my feeling about the range trait's utility though - just that if you can't get a power off the range isn't really helping. 

 

To reiterate Prot's original post:

 

The extra range can also keep you out of deny the witch range. I only play against Eldar. You know those guys that crushed the LVO and always show up with several psyker models and reaperspam everywhere? If I can be outside their deny range that is huge for getting off some key spells sometimes. In fact last game my darn opponent denied 75% of my spells, and of course the ones that got denied were essential (DAMN THOSE FARSEER REROLLS!). It made me wish I was playing my Thousand Sons that game. The extra 6" doesn't boost your deny range too does it? I would love to reach out and violate some Eldar skulls.

[Skerr]

I missed that in Prot's post and an extra 6 on the deny is huge if so. We need to see the wording again.

 

Dudes would hate us... one of my closest friends plays Eldar and I can hear him now (all in fun of course, not expecting major b@@@ hurt)

 

Especially Ahri with his 3 denials...

Edited January 31, 2018 by Skerr

[Sonoftherubric21]

Why not just have the rubric buff up the prince and save yourself the CP though?

 

You got the range boost, and its unlikely you want to spread out THAT thin (especially with cabal casting encouraging us to stay in a tight formation)

 

 

Thinking of it.

We have 2 of our casting boosts contradict each other x_x

Trait that lets you spread thin, and a stratagem that tell you to pack up.

 

My average list at 2k is looking like 6-8 casters, so both spreading out AND bunching up is not really an issue with most lists once you hit 2k. 

 

Also you cannot say where your OPPONENT will be, so the extra range is *always* useful. 

[Skerr]

My 2000 pointers seem heavy of psychers as well, the key will be finding the appropriate tactics in each game which is going to be different in most cases.

 

We can operate in the shades in between the two extremes and close to them when need be.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Skerr

[Skerr]

I just reread the faction focus and the legion trait, with text box art and obligatory fluffy 1st paragraph, and the wording is specific.

 

"The ranges of all psychic powers manifested by units with this ability are increased by 6 inches."

 

Denys by their nature are attempts to prevent a manifestation event from occuring and do not think Denying is a manifestation in itself. Hope im wrong but if not i still beleive it is a great trait.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Skerr

[Zodd1888]

I read that the same way Skerr.

 

Edit: Gift of Chaos is 6", and our trait makes it 12". I'd take a 1 in 3 chance at dealing D3+3 MW. That's a pretty potent usage of the trait.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Zodd1888

[bozo69pd]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Skerr, I have not picked up the book yet. Regardless, I will continue to tiptoe outside of Farseer denial range.

[Raven1]

Well i think its worthy of asking GW what role denial plays.