Will Grey Knights be fixed by the March FAQ?

[Zamtro]

I think he means drop the cost of Psycannons on Power Armoured GKs.

Sorry I should have been more clear, yes that is what I meant :)

[Gentlemanloser]

That's too much for the march update.

 

We need a codex re write. And i agree with bart.

 

We won't see anything like that until GW decide to oroduce GK Primaris.

 

Which i don't see happening until all the current cidexes are out.

 

GW could easily give us access to current Primaris. We don't needed out own kit for them. Just look at the GMNDK.

 

GW could simply say

 

Take the Primaris and add your own bling to make them GK.

 

But we've been denied that.

[Ninjoe42]

I suspect the one change you're going to see, if they go by prevalence of unit, is an increase in the points of GMNDK. It shows up quite a bit in most soup lists

[Kallas]

GK should be closer to custodes than space marines. Who knows if that will happen, I rather doubt it.

Grey Knights are Space Marines. They should not be close to Custodes.

 

If anything, they're reasonably accurate as is: better gear and psychic power than regular Marines, but still Marine bodies. That's what they are - an Astartes Chapter with a singular focus, and with rules to emphasise that.

 

Reworking some of the units' special rules (such as Purifying Flames, Daemon Hunters in general) to better distinguish them from one another and a couple of tweaks to some weapons would go a long way to making GK perform and feel better. It doesn't need to be a huge Codex redesign and anyone expecting/hoping for that will likely be disappointed.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I suspect the one change you're going to see, if they go by prevalence of unit, is an increase in the points of GMNDK. It shows up quite a bit in most soup lists 

 

Fantastic, the last viable unit in our book gets made too expensive for its own list, just to punish Soup cancer :^) the sad thing is I think that's exactly what GW will do. They did the same thing to Razorbacks with the assault cannon price change.

 

I would prefer we don't get Primaris. Leave that for Red Hunters and Exorcists.

[Corvus Fortis]

People were taking 4-6 Razorbacks in their lists. No surprise, this was nerfed. If GW really wanted to deal with soup, they'd better give faction-specific rules only armywide, not detachment-wide. GMNDKs are not close as popular as Celestine, Guilly or Consripts horde with Kurov's Aquilla. 

[Shagah]

 

GK should be closer to custodes than space marines. Who knows if that will happen, I rather doubt it.

Grey Knights are Space Marines. They should not be close to Custodes.

 

If anything, they're reasonably accurate as is: better gear and psychic power than regular Marines, but still Marine bodies. That's what they are - an Astartes Chapter with a singular focus, and with rules to emphasise that.

 

Reworking some of the units' special rules (such as Purifying Flames, Daemon Hunters in general) to better distinguish them from one another and a couple of tweaks to some weapons would go a long way to making GK perform and feel better. It doesn't need to be a huge Codex redesign and anyone expecting/hoping for that will likely be disappointed.

 

 

With The Emperor's Gene Seed!

 

But I take your point.

I get the feeling the point being made by TheCastigator was that fluff wise we have always been the mary-sue of the marines, and at times on the table we have been.  Now Custodes have come along, and many of the suggestions in the GK world to get us back to being more elite, have come to fruition with Custodes. And now people are telling us we are just grey marines who are good with their mind, and are really good at killing Daemons.  We are no longer the elite of the elite which was the fantasy archetype many of us signed up for.

 

Not to mention that on the table we are not even that good at the stuff we are known for!

"You're all psykers!" who cannot use all our powers due to game limitations, and our Smite is worse than (almost) everybody else's.

"But you could spam it with all your Units being capable of casting smite!" except because our Units are costly we have far fewer Units on the table than most other Armies, not to mention most factions can spam cheap psykers plus most of their own normal armies for almost as many (if not more) regular full strength Smites than we can generate baby Smites for the same points.

"but you get all those bonuses to cast and deny powers!" you got me there, the +1/-1 mechanic is actually pretty good.

"And at least you own Daemons!" well arguably we are better against them, as our Smite trebles in strength (but stays the same short range) and we can re-role to wound in cc, also good, too bad once we wipe them out they can come back using CP because we killed them. Still we are better at killing them than  most just not that good at defeating them.

 

As for a slight re-work being all that is needed?  Not sure I agree although I think a decent re-work could make us more usable, make special weapons worth their value, open up another set of psychic powers, normalise Smite, re-work a couple of special rules.  Not great, but more competitive with a bit more variety until the codex re-write in a few years.

 

[Capt. Mytre]

 

I suspect the one change you're going to see, if they go by prevalence of unit, is an increase in the points of GMNDK. It shows up quite a bit in most soup lists 

 

Fantastic, the last viable unit in our book gets made too expensive for its own list, just to punish Soup cancer :^) the sad thing is I think that's exactly what GW will do. They did the same thing to Razorbacks with the assault cannon price change.

 

I would prefer we don't get Primaris. Leave that for Red Hunters and Exorcists.

 

 

Same. I hate Primaris lore and how deus ex machina it is. Should have just been "Here's the new space marine sculpts", just like they did with the terminator sculpt changes. Of course, they did it to make sick cash money, but it doesn't mean from a lore perspective that it is poorly written.

 

People were taking 4-6 Razorbacks in their lists. No surprise, this was nerfed. If GW really wanted to deal with soup, they'd better give faction-specific rules only armywide, not detachment-wide. GMNDKs are not close as popular as Celestine, Guilly or Consripts horde with Kurov's Aquilla. 

 

Only because of Gorillaman. The nerf should have been to him, not to the units he affects. The 25 point increase was laughable. It's another case of GW point system resulting in a domino effect into other armies.

[Helycon]

I think Grey Knights will be fine and tuned to Blood Angel / Dark Angel levels: Good but not OP. All shall be well, given time :) .

[Kallas]

(Small disclaimer: Shagah I'm directly quoting you, but I'm not intending anything to be a personal attack, so hopefully that comes across! I genuinely think that Grey Knights aren't the worst thing ever, and I do think that they could do with a few buffs. Think of me as someone who wants to help, but trying to moderate some of the more extreme voices either way - I neither think that GK are awful, nor do I think they are great  )

 

With The Emperor's Gene Seed!

 

Allegedly, unless they explicitly called it out in 6/7th? 

 

But I take your point.

I get the feeling the point being made by TheCastigator was that fluff wise we have always been the mary-sue of the marines, and at times on the table we have been.  Now Custodes have come along, and many of the suggestions in the GK world to get us back to being more elite, have come to fruition with Custodes. And now people are telling us we are just grey marines who are good with their mind, and are really good at killing Daemons.  We are no longer the elite of the elite which was the fantasy archetype many of us signed up for.

 

 

I think the issue in this regard is that of expectations. I've played since 3rd, and while Grey Knights (back when they were limited to just Terminators!) were definitely elite, they weren't actually much more impressive than a regular Terminator - it was (if I recall from the cobwebbed tracts of my memory) mostly the Nemesis Force Halberds that gave them a lot of their identity.

 

Additionally, Matt Ward's Codex was a abberation! And that's where a lot of perceived 'super eliteness' stems from (because he couldn't write rules to save his life) - or did people forget about the Sisters Convent that held true in the face of a huge Daemon incursion, so the Grey Knights killed them so they could use their blood for protection! The GK, the super-duper elite, none-of-us-have-ever-turned, Ward-Sue Marines of dedicated, massively teched against Daemons Marines - they decided to not only kill the Sisters but to then daub themselves with their blood.

 

That's one of the big reasons why the Ward Codex should be excised from everyones' collective memories. It's a terrible portrayal of what the Grey Knights are, and leads to situations like this where folks expect/demand way more because the perception has been hugely distorted.

 

And besides: Custodes have always been lurking in the background and have, predominantly, been a step between Astartes and Primarchs. Rules-wise they were always going to be better than Marines. Also, if I'm not mistaken some of the GK complaints stem from a limited selection, which is valid, but seem to gloss over the fact that AC are even more restricted - they've got about 5 units, which are basically identical (except for one or two stat adjustments, and the Bikes) and a few character options, which are also basically identical.

 

Not to mention that on the table we are not even that good at the stuff we are known for!

"You're all psykers!" who cannot use all our powers due to game limitations, and our Smite is worse than (almost) everybody else's.

"But you could spam it with all your Units being capable of casting smite!" except because our Units are costly we have far fewer Units on the table than most other Armies, not to mention most factions can spam cheap psykers plus most of their own normal armies for almost as many (if not more) regular full strength Smites than we can generate baby Smites for the same points.

"but you get all those bonuses to cast and deny powers!" you got me there, the +1/-1 mechanic is actually pretty good.

"And at least you own Daemons!" well arguably we are better against them, as our Smite trebles in strength (but stays the same short range) and we can re-role to wound in cc, also good, too bad once we wipe them out they can come back using CP because we killed them. Still we are better at killing them than  most just not that good at defeating them.

 

 

"You're all Psykers" - Yes, you can't use your powers more than once each in Matched Play. Just like everyone else? At least the Sanctic discipline is actually all good (Purge Soul is probably the least universally useful, but can be damn powerful - units like Death Company are low Ld and reasonably expensive)! The C:SM discipline has like three useful powers and three turds; C:BA has three good, one ok and two turds

(the two damaging powers). A lot of the disciplines run along these lines too (about half useful, half crap) and the Sanctic discipline is an outlier. Thousand Sons of course have 2-3 disciplines to choose from, which gives them a lot of utility, and makes them an outlier in a different way.

 

Let's also not forget that GK have a bunch of DtW attempts in pretty every list. While it's far from guaranteed to prevent enemies from casting it's damn useful to have them in your pocket, even if they're just used to curtail enemy Smites.

 

 

"Smite spam" - Yup, that's not necessarily the power of the Grey Knights, I agree. That said, and it has been talked about before it is an improvement on output over standard Marines. There's definitely an issue with Smite spam but it's not because of GK, as you say it's because of super cheap sources like IG Primaris Psykers, and Tyranid Neurothropes/Zoanthropes. That's why I feel the Beta rules are a fix for the symptom not the cause.

 

 

"+1 Cast/Deny" - Yeah, that's pretty nice, particularly considering that basically any unit can/will using it every turn. 

 

 

"Daemons" - I think this kind of harks back to Grey Knights bring specialists. They are trained and equipped for Daemon killing, their whole purpose for being a unique Chapter (as opposed to just having a preference for a certain enemy, like say Ultramarines vs Tyranids, or Crimson Fists vs Orks) is to be the best anti-Daemon fighters, not the best fighters with an anti-Daemon preference.

 

Now, that's not to say that I think GK should absolutely stay as they are, I think a couple of minor changes to some of these anti-Daemon rules could go a long way to enabling the GK against other armies while still maintaining a dominant anti-Daemon focus: someone suggested a -1 to Invulnerable saves rule, which I think is really good. Swap the Daemon Hunters text for that, and Daemons are getting hammered, even if it only applied in CC (maybe could be applied to the Psybolt Stratagems?) but others are getting hit by it too, and would help against a proliferation of high Invulnerable saves (such as Storm Shield units, or Zoanthropes, etc).

 

But my general thrust here is that Grey Knights are a specialist anti-Daemon fighting force. Deathwatch are an anti-Xenos force (and don't actually get any rules to show that, other than Xenophase Blades, which aren't actually anti-Xenos), but due to their recruitment and deployments, they are substantially different from Grey Knights: they benefit from a blend of different Chapters that all bring their own tactics, knowledge; strengths and weakness and that lends them to a flexible army even with a limited selection of dedicated units. I wouldn't be surprised if/when they get a Codex, they have some anti-(non-Imperium/Chaos) rules/Stratagems. Sisters also have some pretty narrow focuses within their units: the Condemnor Boltgun is anti-Psyker, and the Sisters tend to lack the long range firepower of the Grey Knights (they have Exorcists and Heavy Bolters, but that's basically the extent of their long range arsenal, and with very little in the way of melee power).

 

Point being: Grey Knights are an anti-Daemon army. They have been since conception, even through the awful Ward-times. They still are now. While several of their rules apply only to Daemons, the majority of their actual combat power doesn't rely on fighting against Daemons, simply that when they do a few things are better.

 

As for a slight re-work being all that is needed?  Not sure I agree although I think a decent re-work could make us more usable, make special weapons worth their value, open up another set of psychic powers, normalise Smite, re-work a couple of special rules.  Not great, but more competitive with a bit more variety until the codex re-write in a few years.

 

Here's what I mean by a slight re-work:

 - Reword a few of the Grey Knights rules (such as the suggested Daemon Hunters rule changing to affect Invulnerable saves: it has a major effect vs Daemons and becomes useful vs others; alternatively - GK reroll to wound whenever they charge/get charged/heroically intervene a la Red Thirst, and always reroll vs Daemons?)

 - Modify some of the Grey Knights unique weapons, as has been mentioned before (such as the Psycannon and Psilencer - make them distinct and useful vs different targets)

 - Modify some of the Grey Knights units so that they stand out from one another. Strikes/Interceptors are reasonably distinct (one is a basic Troop, whereas the other is a fast moving unit and able to manoeuvre without the use of Gate of Infinity); but Paladins/Terminators are essentially the same, with Paladins just being better but more expensive - if they had something similar to the Allarus where they could split out into single-model units, or something like a Bodyguard rule (which they essentially are)

 

Just a couple of tweaks like that would go a long way to helping Grey Knights feel less limited, as well as improving some of their power issues without going overboard on a full redesign. Then points can be factored in in future Chapter Approved updates (or in other balance passes). Basically, I don't think a full rework of the Codex is necessary, nor do I think that major shifts in the basic building blocks needs to done (such as making PAGK 2W, T5 just because Custodes are tougher!)

[Schlitzaf]

Just to add what Kallas just said, what makes GK 'feel' elite is that they have some of the best baseline weapons for any troops that give them incredible adaptability from Storm Bolters and Nemesis Weapons. Like Pyscannons have their issues, but they are in theory just +1STR Assault Cannon. And if you like at them and compare them to various Assault Cannon Chassis, the units that can take them are paying equivalent points. Even if they replace your Force Weapons on PA Chassis...when folks start shooting take out the heavy weapons first. 

 

Pyscannons are not meant to kill heavy armor, in the past they could because rending rules. They are meant to kill medium armor units like Greater Daemons who low Armor/Invulnerable Save, High Toughness and Wound Count. Your Stormbolters are excellent anti-chaff weaponry. GK's have the issue (honestly shared by Admech), they are a firefight style list (effective range is 8-15), and little dedicated anti-heavy armor easily (and reasonable accessible). Pyscannons while do a damage on what I noted, often tickle and maybe proc a wound or two (or just bringing enemy behold a threshold). If they are to the armies primary anti-tank, they need either, A) More Shots

B) Alternative Modes (ala Plasma)

C) AP

I think doing Rapid 3 and when shooting units with (monster or vehicle) keyword does d3 damage. Be an interesting change, oh and combat squading, please fix combat squading. 

 

Words; Pyscannons are actually pointed correctly. The larger issue that Pyscannons demonstrate, and shared by Admech, is access to reliable anti-heavy units. Pyscannons are good for bringing down threshold damage. But at well actually killing, not so much. Additionally their current setup is backward. A firefight list wants to be constantly moving. Something like heavy is just backwards against that logic, and motivates camping. And because rules change, Pyscannons Cannons no longer fill key role in the army, which goes back to what I started with, they are pointed correct, if they were Assault Cannons. Point for Point the two Weapons are the same efficiency and otherwise, Pyscannons aren't overcosted. 

 

They are just the incorrect weapon GK need. Pyscannons need to be changed from Assault Cannons. To something like Autocannons instead or given several more shots, or situational damage buff. And need to be changed to fit the playstyle/mechanical game of Grey Knights. (2 points less, so on PA only 10 Points (functionally), Rapid 3, and then damage on monsters/vehicles increase to 2 or d3 (ArcRifles should also be changed to monsters/vehicles instead of just both). 

 

-----

Pyscannons aside, GK characters need real smite or a point reduction at the very least. Also you need the true grit stratagem that Space Puppies got. Oh and can we also fix combat squading? (seriously the change to combat squading annoys me so much. Like half point of 10 man squads is deep strike both. Heavies combat and stand behind while Chaff stand in front acting as road bump. Or deployment flexibility etc. Seriously I don't even really use combat squading and the change annoys me).

 

A general thing I like to see, if that baby smite units (and change horrors to babysmite) gain their own 'Smite' Power. That is a separate -1 to Cast than real Smite. So if GK Characters get real smite, and units have baby smite, plus powers, they have 11-12 powers they can reasonably cast and use ach turn. Or I'd like to see the return of army 'specific' Smite styled powers (Hammerhand being a power every GK Unit can cast any number of times for example). I went on tangent /sigh. Pyscannons need to be redone to not just an Assault Cannon Variant and pointed correctly from there, and GK Characters need real Smite or point reduction at least. And combat squad things (but that is more Marines in general). And then some basic sensible changes, Purifiers getting 2A for example.

[Prot]

Personally I still love the GK and I wish we weren’t so soon out of the gate. I think if they rewrote GK today, they would be fairly different. But I also believe vanilla marines are actually quite mediocre without soup or a Primarch.

 

For base rules I quite like +1 cast/ deny. I like it better than the Thousand Sons although theirs is okay, I still prefer any help on my crappy dice.

 

Core unit rules; as much as I’d like them to fix Librarians, and other core units, realistically we know it won’t happen in a chapter approved. I’ve always disliked some of the entry level special weapons, but I don’t think they’ll fix that.

 

My biggest hope is that they change our core rule baby Smite with a new name, something that replaces Smite on all non- characters. This way all brother hood type units can cast without increasing difficulty but the characters gain normal Smite. This helps a lot in my opinion and would be counter balanced by the beta tested changes to Smite ( which I think we all agree will go ahead as written)

 

That is my broadest, yet easiest change to the army Psychic speaking.

 

As a side note I think GW put too much merit in using LVO as the true beta test. I personally believe they over flexed on Razorbacks and Stormravens etc. The problem never was those units specifically. It was what happens when those units are combined with a Primarch.

 

Instead I believe those units were compensating for short comings of other units which should have been fixed instead of punishing usable options. I mean you don’t see tournaments full of Thunderfire Cannons and assault marines, do you?

 

Not to mention most of those nerfs were written with about 2 codexes in play, and Guilliman using those units.

 

GK still represent a classic, strong army to me. All Imperium armies require soup to compete. GW intends it. But I still enjoy the rare mixture of CC, Psychics, and shooty this army gives. Now if Termies were a bit better I’d still be building them in mass. Maybe one day...

[Gentlemanloser]

Kallas long post and i can't c&p. I hope this doesn't end up a mess.

 

Gene seed. Yup its explicitly the Emperors.

 

Ward dex. Sadly his fluff was rancid. But his crunch was solid. What most missed in the zomg op craze was we were actually written for 6th. Which toned down a lot of power we had at the end of 5th.

 

The blood tide and draigos fluff still exists. GW have had 3 editions and 2 more codexes to rewrite it.

 

They haven't.

 

Your all psykers. 1 disc sucks. If your an army with only 1 librarian, its not a drawback. That's why Tsons have been given 2 extra disciplines. And Eldar have double powers baked in.

 

We have upwards of 6 psykers in every army. Its impossible for them to all cast a non smite power.

 

This doesn't hold for Eldar or TSons.

 

As for GK always being anti daemon, please read Vs sticky on our history. Originally we weren't even psykers. Just a marine army with the choice of an inquisitor as our HQ.

 

We've *always* been a fully fledged marine chapter. As capable in any situation as the ultramarines. With better equipment than then.

 

Or should have.

 

Finally. We have terrible strats, mostly c&p'd marine standards. We have terrible relics, with the worst in the game. We have terrible internal balance between our units, unlike the AC, which all see use (maybe wardens as the exception). We have terrible CP options and are one of the only armies not to have any way to regain them.

 

All these need to be addressed. And will take match more than the march balance pass to tackle.

 

We are the worst codex army that has been released. And are the least represented at tournaments.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Personally, the whole "GK are intended to fight against other threats" is hampered by the fact that for Astartes to be truly effective against Orks, etc, they have to fight as part of a wider front, with supporting Imperial Guard troops, etc. Even 1000 Grey Knights isn't going to be able to stop a rampaging Waaagh!, for example. So, if they need to fight alongside other troops to be effective against non-Daemon foes, and yet all allies have to be executed/mind-wiped if they see the Grey Knights, it's too cost effective to deploy Grey Knights against that recidivist empire, when another Chapter can provide exactly the same role.

 

They're 1000 specialist troops, in a role no other force can really accomplish, trying to protect an entire galaxy. They can't waste a decade fighting back a Tau incursion. Let the Ultramarines deal with that.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

And besides: Custodes have always been lurking in the background and have, predominantly, been a step between Astartes and Primarchs. Rules-wise they were always going to be better than Marines. Also, if I'm not mistaken some of the GK complaints stem from a limited selection, which is valid, but seem to gloss over the fact that AC are even more restricted - they've got about 5 units, which are basically identical (except for one or two stat adjustments, and the Bikes) and a few character options, which are also basically identical.

 

 

I agree, Custodes have been around since before the first Space Marines and are basically the last line of defence against any attack on the Emperor. so I don't have a problem with them being more elite than our elite army.

 

Though with the recent news of Custodes FW models migrating to 40K along with new 8E rules, they will eventually be given access to - and rolling out with their very own Golden Grav-Tanks, Grav-Carriers, Spear/Sword/Shield wielding Dreadnoughts and probably even that beastly Telemon Dreadnought. Crunch-wise aside (based on pure aesthetics and the army building/collecting side of me), having a 40k Custodes army without having to build/paint ordinary Landraiders or lacklustre Contemptor Dreads - but having the Coronus, Caladius and Achilles counterparts with their own legit 40k rules, is a really nice incentive to start collecting - if your were already on the fence of building a Custodes army / collecting rant over /.

 

Anyway I'm on the boat that with a few PINPOINT tweaks in our current codex, I would be substantially happy for the improvement. I dont intend to sigh ALL through 8E dreaming of brand new GK codex.

[Kallas]

Gene seed. Yup its explicitly the Emperors.

 

Ward dex. Sadly his fluff was rancid. But his crunch was solid. What most missed in the zomg op craze was we were actually written for 6th. Which toned down a lot of power we had at the end of 5th.

 

The blood tide and draigos fluff still exists. GW have had 3 editions and 2 more codexes to rewrite it.

 

They haven't.

Out of curiosity, where does it say that it's the Emperor's Gene-Seed? (Not trying to go, "Aha! You're wrong!", genuinely curious because that's a step up from the usual GW vagueness.)

 

Ward's crunch wasn't really solid, because it was mostly backing up his terrible fluff - "Look, this guy is awesome, he must be because I made his rules insane!" Can't say I'm not biased though; his fluff infuriates me (Oh everyone wishes they were the Ultramarines?  )

 

Your all psykers. 1 disc sucks. If your an army with only 1 librarian, its not a drawback. That's why Tsons have been given 2 extra disciplines. And Eldar have double powers baked in.

 

We have upwards of 6 psykers in every army. Its impossible for them to all cast a non smite power.

 

This doesn't hold for Eldar or TSons.

Oh sure, I'm not saying that having a single discipline in a psyker heavy army is the best thing ever, simply that it's at least a good one! As a Howling Griffons player, I'd love to have an all-round good discipline (ie, not half-filled with crap) because their background has them recruiting a lot of powerful psykers - having a half-turd discipline means that bringing three Librarians is a bit of a waste of their utility, because I either double up on powers and they'll not cast them, or I take the crap powers and they're, y'know...crap 

 

As Prot said, it could be possible that GK get some change to Baby Smite/the Sanctic Discipline that lets GK use a few more powers each turn, even if it was only, as mentioned, something like Hammerhand (as opposed to the crazy useful Gate, which would just let GK hop about the place like big, shiny frogs with Force Weapons!)

 

Also, please don't just gloss over the parts of my post where I was trying to be positive. I'm not trying to tell you that it's all sunshine and happiness, but I am trying to point out that there are bright points (and there are).

 

As for GK always being anti daemon, please read Vs sticky on our history. Originally we weren't even psykers. Just a marine army with the choice of an inquisitor as our HQ.

We've *always* been a fully fledged marine chapter. As capable in any situation as the ultramarines. With better equipment than then.

 

Or should have.

The Grey Knights have also always been the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus; y'know, the Daemon Hunters arm of the Inquisition. It even says as much in the thread you pointed to. They have always had an anti-Daemon (well, anti-Chaos, but Daemons are an integral part of Chaos) bent.

 

Again, I did voice my support for the idea to modify the Daemon Hunters rule that Grey Knights get, as someone suggested, to make it affect Invulnerable Saves as that would give GK good extra bite vs Daemons but also give them some more teeth vs non-Daemons. I mean, that's one of the Warlord traits (against Daemons), and I'm sure it's not taken much because First To The Fray is so much more useful in general, so there's precedent for it to be a thing in the game/the Grey Knight arsenal.

 

 

 

 

[Gentlemanloser]

The last couple of codexes outright state it, and if i remember correctly the novel emperors gift.

 

You won't find many supporters of wards fluff here. The bloodtide was an abomination. As was purifiers being more uncorruptible than the uncorruptible. And don't get me started on why are you allowed to walk around and not in astasis field Crowe.

 

But his crunch was great. Best the GK have ever had. Each unit was given a deffined role through unique powers. The crunch wasnt perfect. But it was miles better than any other iteration.

 

Yeah an anti chaos focus. Which includes the heretic marines and daemon vehicles. Point is the GK are stated to be as fully effective as any marine chapter. And the old DH coded goes out off it's way to give reasons why the GK would fight any force.

 

I totally agree that the anti daemon rules should be tweaked a little to give them more global useage, like lowering invulnerable saves instead.

 

I juat dislike the notion some have (not implying you in any way! ) that the GK shouldn't be a proper army in thier own right.

 

As for the custards. While they've always been here in the background, then as a fighting force is a relatively new addition to 40k. It Just feels like they've been introduced by taking our elite status away from us.

 

And as others have pointed out, our basic troop is equivalent to normal marines elite units. That's what make they GK feel elite.

 

We The custard basic troop is equivalent to the most elite unit we have. Making them in ward fashion more elite than the elite. ;)

[Danarc]

Custodes aren't Astartes, so I have no problem with them. They are the elite of the elite, but, since it was suppose that we were the elite of the elite, now we have some difficulties in finding a place. It is ok being a super specialist chapter, (we still are the 666 chapter), but GW should give us a role in the battlefield. 

I think that, without any point drop (according to warhammer community) in the March FAQ we should have AT LEAST:

 

1) access to librarius discipline.

2) Purifiers with 2A.

3) Psycannon with 2D

4) Non nerfed version of smite or baby smite unaffected by new rule.

 

This is the minimum we should get next month to be in line with the last codex.

 

But I'm not confident. My impression is that GW will ignore us again.

[Bartali]

 

 

That's one of the big reasons why the Ward Codex should be excised from everyones' collective memories.

 

Nope. I like the Ward GK dex, and also his BA dex. They both managed plenty of flavourful builds, and it's obvious plenty of work was put into the rules design. 

I don't really care for the 'fluff' - the hint is in the name. I did like the super campy Draigo fluff though which I thought was a ton of fun. 

 

It's a shame Matt Ward was hounded out of 40K rules design by some very vocal internet fluff bullies, he seemed to be the only one who could string coherent rules together.

[Holier Than Thou]

Agreed. The fluff was atrocious but their rules, as soon as 6th edition rules and other 6th edition Codexes were released, were not OTT at all. They were pretty much just where they should be.

[Danarc]

I strongly agree. All codex rules should have been written by ward.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The guy who single-handedly helped break Warhammer Fantasy with his Daemons books, that were amazingly overpowered because "Daemons are supposed to be powerful"? The guy who left Orcs and Goblins underpowered because he stated he never really liked them? He had some success with his 40k rules, but the guy wasn't anywhere near perfect in a rules sense either.

 

EDIT: And who can forget him also breaking game balance by giving all the Elves armies Always Strikes First, because they're Elves and Elves should be fast, ignoring that they already had high Movement and Initiative.

[Gentlemanloser]

Who cares about fantasy? Lol.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Your argument is "he's an awesome rules writer". Those are rules he's written. Therefore, he's not got a perfect record for writing rules. He's got a record for writing good rules for armies he likes, creating purposefully OP rules for armies he thinks should be OP, and scribbling out terrible rules for armies he doesn't care about.

 

"Why should we arrest that guy? He didn't murder me!"

[Gentlemanloser]

Awesome =/= Perfect.

 

The rule in the GK 5th edition codex weren't perfect either.

 

They were very good, the best this faction has ever seen.

 

But not perfect.

 

Heck i even say 'the crunch wasnt perfect' above...