Best CP-miner detachment?

[superwill]

Well, 9d6 str 4 shots at BS 4+ is 2.6 dead marines. Against GEQ it’s 7 casualties. Less than impressive, but a good obj sitter as mentioned before.

If they're out in the open, yeah. But most squads you'd be shooting (devs, reapers etc) are probably sitting in/on cover. But yeah, as objective sitters / paperweights they're fine. I would just rather the CPs for taking infantry.

[Calistarius]

Those are good points I hadn’t considered. I guess I’ve been looking at them in a vacuum. They’re just so cheap, but for good reason I suppose.

[superwill]

Those are good points I hadn’t considered. I guess I’ve been looking at them in a vacuum. They’re just so cheap, but for good reason I suppose.

Yeah haha, when I first saw them on paper I thought they were too good to be true. But after seeing them on the table a few times I realized why they cost so little. The acolytes also have a good reason for being 25 points cheaper than a squad of mortars (if you even look at them, they die) but I get a few objective sitters / first turn deep strike protectors and a 1 CP detachment for my miner and still have 1950 to spend on the good stuff.

Edited February 16, 2018 by superwill

[Indefragable]

Also, for what it’s worth...I would be cautious about spending hundreds or thousands of your hard earned currency or investing your heart and soul into this sort of stuff...

 

...it’s so universally useful that I smell a nerf coming down the road. May be a month, a year, who knows, but cheese this pungent usually attracts the wrong nostrils.

 

Reminds me of the Flesh Tearers Strike Force with 6x Drop Pods...we all know what happened to that.

[Morticon]

Also, for what it’s worth...I would be cautious about spending hundreds or thousands of your hard earned currency or investing your heart and soul into this sort of stuff...

 

...it’s so universally useful that I smell a nerf coming down the road. May be a month, a year, who knows, but cheese this pungent usually attracts the wrong nostrils.

 

Reminds me of the Flesh Tearers Strike Force with 6x Drop Pods...we all know what happened to that.

 

QFT!! 

 

Cheap 'n cheerful unless you have a strong guard element in your forces.   

[Kappel]

Lots of good points so far. Thx a lot for all the input. I am beginning to see the sense in having the cheap 54-57 point vanguard version. Also a lot less new stuff to paint. I am thinking about using the new Forge World Necromunda Hired Guns as acolytes. Should be possible to pop some laspistols or boltguns on them, fairly easy. 

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Random thoughts and other thoughts:

 

The cp miner warlord trait pulls you off of Artisan of War as you can only have 1 warlord. We have whole threads singing the virtues of Capt Smash and this idea tarnishes the hammer some.

 

Mortar teams are not powerful, but have a decent board control footprint that bothers Inceptors deepstriking and such.

More importantly they excel at removing chaff and placing some bolter level fire on things you cannot see.

 

A Basilisk with Master of Ordanace is good for more effective firepower. See also Wyvern / Manticore.

 

I ran my troops as veterans for a couple games. They die the same so I shaved the points back to basic guardsmen here and reinvested in other things.

When the enemy warptime etc comes it is handy to have the additional screens to buy a turn IF you have a gunline to screen.

 

IG troops melt if the enemy puts any attention on them so keep them cheap in my opinion.

They do make great ankle biter pawns to throw in while you line up your assaults.

 

----------------------------

 

You can get better line infantry marine units so think about it really if you are gonna upgrade those IG fellas at all...

Probably better off with Rhino, Scouts, Intercessors etc.

 

If you are screening a gunline and investing in IG are you really maxxing Blood Angel abilities?

 

Walls of chaff and a big stab are great in short format (2-3 turn) tourney games. Without the artificial half time game ending these forces are not as good I feel.

Think about the missions, tables, opponents you play yourself before buying into the IG hype.

 

Think carefully before investing in IG as they get to be an expensive army in money and time quickly methinks.

 

You likely can do similar things with marines with a little thought and a game running full to the end.

I happen to have the IG and have been having fun trying them. They are fun, but not something I would recommend running out and buying really.

 

So...

They do make great cheap allies in this tourney meta bubble, but see also things like other Space Marines, Assassins, Grey Knights, Custodes, and AdMech etc.

If you really wanna add toys we don't have organically and wanna do more than screen and die there are better allies on offer says I.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Morticon]

Mentioned this in my "thoughts" thread, but 

 

Vanguard detachment with:

 

Astropath

Master of Ord

Officer of the Fleet

 

only 91 points (+30) for the Commander. 

 

Gives you a backline psychic blocker- since Meph is smashing face out front, as well as a handy no LOS d6, S8 AP2 d3 damage shot each turn, aaaas well as a 4+ to do d3 mortal wounds to any unit in LOS of the OotF. 

Maybe not as versatile or work-horsey as the mortars (and a much smaller footprint, which is a negative too), but i think its quite useful! 

[Morticon]

Random thoughts and other thoughts:

 

The cp miner warlord trait pulls you off of Artisan of War as you can only have 1 warlord. We have whole threads singing the virtues of Capt Smash and this idea tarnishes the hammer some.

 

 

They do make great cheap allies in this tourney meta bubble, but see also things like other Space Marines, Assassins, Grey Knights, Custodes, and AdMech etc.

If you really wanna add toys we don't have organically and wanna do more than screen and die there are better allies on offer says I.

 

The artisan of war WL is incredible, and in a pure BA list, i'd rock him every time.

 

But if I had a choice, I'd take an extra 6-8 CP  for 30-130 points over him every. single. time.

 

I believe the success of our dex in a tournament setting (ie: multiple games, multiple opponents/armies) relies on CP.  This trumps captain smashypants in every way possible. 

 

So, While i'm with you about there being better allies broadly speaking, getting access to better, cheaper allies with access to this much CP mining is impossible. 

 

 

 

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I know you are going for a Vanguard with those, but they make for nice Brigade fodder as well Morticon =)

Excellent choices really.

 

Consider also the Primaris Psyker HQ.

Food for thought.

 

Edit-

Very true on your points about Smash and CP as well currently Morticon.

There are also many a call to nerf this thang rumbling about too tho.

 

I would just hate to see Frater buying these and getting them painted about the time it gets changed.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Morticon]

I know you are going for a Vanguard with those, but they make for nice Brigade fodder as well Morticon =)

Excellent choices really.

 

Consider also the Primaris Psyker HQ.

Food for thought.

 

Edit-

Very true on your points about Smash and CP as well currently Morticon.

There are also many a call to nerf this thang rumbling about too tho.

 

I would just hate to see Frater buying these and getting them painted about the time it gets changed.

What you mean by brigade fodder? ><; 

 

Nah, theyre defs gonna get nerfed.  No chance that miner is staying as is. 

[Thorakitai]

Mentioned this in my "thoughts" thread, but

 

Vanguard detachment with:

 

Astropath

Master of Ord

Officer of the Fleet

 

only 91 points (+30) for the Commander.

 

Gives you a backline psychic blocker- since Meph is smashing face out front, as well as a handy no LOS d6, S8 AP2 d3 damage shot each turn, aaaas well as a 4+ to do d3 mortal wounds to any unit in LOS of the OotF.

 

Maybe not as versatile or work-horsey as the mortars (and a much smaller footprint, which is a negative too), but i think its quite useful!

Unless there was an FAQ I missed, the Master of Ord and Officer of the Fleet abilities are once per game, not per turn, and the odds of them simply doing nothing are not negligible.

[superwill]

So what have people done about the Sanguinary Guard issue? Do people just run them not near the warlord? Or do people not take them alongside the miner?

[Brother Crimson]

What issue?

 

You can just run a chaplain or a captain nearby for rerolls.

[superwill]

Yeah totally, I just hate paying points for redundancy. When they've got a pretty damn good rule built in (better in fact than either the chaplain or captain), it seems silly to be paying points for a unit that gives them a worse version.

 

But it sounds like the only real solution is "cop it" which is fair enough.

Edited February 17, 2018 by superwill

[Blackcadian]

Personally I just dont run them currently. I have only 5 total so maybe thats why I didnt find them super effective but Id rather have a big unit of DC and inceptors.

[Morticon]

 

Mentioned this in my "thoughts" thread, but

 

Vanguard detachment with:

 

Astropath

Master of Ord

Officer of the Fleet

 

only 91 points (+30) for the Commander.

 

Gives you a backline psychic blocker- since Meph is smashing face out front, as well as a handy no LOS d6, S8 AP2 d3 damage shot each turn, aaaas well as a 4+ to do d3 mortal wounds to any unit in LOS of the OotF.

 

Maybe not as versatile or work-horsey as the mortars (and a much smaller footprint, which is a negative too), but i think its quite useful!

Unless there was an FAQ I missed, the Master of Ord and Officer of the Fleet abilities are once per game, not per turn, and the odds of them simply doing nothing are not negligible.

 

You're 100% correct matey - i just re-read the rules.  I had seen the "you may only use it once per turn regardless of how many..." - which made me think otherwise.  And its the case for both units.  

 

Thanks for the catch!!! 

[Kappel]

Is there solid rumours that the cp-miner options will be nerfed in march?

[Panzer]

Is there solid rumours that the cp-miner options will be nerfed in march?

No, but it's to be expected.

[Diagramdude]

Guilliman alone as a Superheavy Aux detachment gives you 3CP for having him as your warlord and he has the same mining WL trait. He also gives you reroll 1s and add 1 to advance and charge.

 

385 points though

[superwill]

As broken as RG is, at least it's not currently like "every Imperial army should have him in their list" which the CP miner kinda is.

[Calistarius]

I just did a quick forum search. Then a google search. I can’t find anything about using this CP mining strategy anywhere. I found it being mentioned in a thread about trying to balance the game. I don’t think this is as bright on GE’s radar as we may think.

 

I don’t know if it requires the sweeping nerf that some are suggesting. You’re giving up some things to make this happen. The return on investment is incredible, but is it really broken? I use them as an example for many things, but look at the Soulburst mechanism with Eldar. Yes, it has been drastically reduced in power. That being said, it still gives the Eldar player 4-6 free CP every turn. That is being compared to the 2CP to shoot twice and 3CP to fight twice that most armies have to pay. This has to be done by combining subfactions of Eldar. That’s no different than allying in guardsmen to me.

 

The CP miner is a powerful tool. I don’t see it as a game breaker though. This game has become more about manipulating resource management than anything we’ve seen before. This isn’t a new mechanic either. The AM codex has been our for some time now. I think if this was a serious issue we would see that reflected in the competitive play events.

 

I have yet to use the CP mining technique, but it is incredibly appealing. These are just some thoughts I had this morning on the matter.

[Panzer]

I just did a quick forum search. Then a google search. I can’t find anything about using this CP mining strategy anywhere. I found it being mentioned in a thread about trying to balance the game. I don’t think this is as bright on GE’s radar as we may think.

 

I don’t know if it requires the sweeping nerf that some are suggesting. You’re giving up some things to make this happen. The return on investment is incredible, but is it really broken? I use them as an example for many things, but look at the Soulburst mechanism with Eldar. Yes, it has been drastically reduced in power. That being said, it still gives the Eldar player 4-6 free CP every turn. That is being compared to the 2CP to shoot twice and 3CP to fight twice that most armies have to pay. This has to be done by combining subfactions of Eldar. That’s no different than allying in guardsmen to me.

 

The CP miner is a powerful tool. I don’t see it as a game breaker though. This game has become more about manipulating resource management than anything we’ve seen before. This isn’t a new mechanic either. The AM codex has been our for some time now. I think if this was a serious issue we would see that reflected in the competitive play events.

 

I have yet to use the CP mining technique, but it is incredibly appealing. These are just some thoughts I had this morning on the matter.

Honestly you don't really give up much at all. A 50p, a Warlord slot and a Detachment slot (for tournaments with limited amount of Detachments) investment is all you'd need theoretically.

 

Oh and it's not that unknown. Many Imperium player used him at the LVO and there will be more in future. Yes it is broken. Stratagems are things that can make or break games and being able to easily use twice as many as your opponent with a similar army is obviously extremely strong.

Funny that you point at Eldar considering that they are still dominating the tournaments and are considered as too strong tho. ;)

[Brother Crimson]

I think we are very biased towards CP power because of our codex. Not all codex needs as much CP to work.

 

Guard can start the game easily with 15 cps.

 

Space Marine don’t care as much because of Guilliman.

 

Blood angels and custodian (haven’t played them but by looking at their codex) can capitalize more on expensive stratagems. If the cp miner is nerfed it will be because those two are on top. Who knows maybe GW will be happy to see guards with Space Marine mixed force.

[Calistarius]

Panzer, that was my point. It’s being used, but to what effect? None. I’m acknowledging the fact we have to give up something off ours to make this happen, not that it is a steep price. I used Eldar as an example in that their mechanic has been nerfed already, and it’s still stronger than ours. I just see this as the Imperium’s answer for resource manipulation.

 

Brother Crimson, that is the point I was looking to make. You just did it more eloquently. I hope GW doesn’t make any knee jerk sweeping nerfs. CP are way more precious to us than many other competing armies. Granted, I’ve done fine without this, but I’ve also felt limited in what I can accomplish as a pure BA army that isn’t just a red marine gun line.