Veterans vs. Infantry Squads

[MinoanFresco]

I have a question for all you foot sloggers out there. Do you prefer veterans or infantry in your lists? How do they stack up next to each other? What upgrades/support do you give them and what role do they have in your armies?

 

Personally, I take a healthy amount of plas-vets in my Vostroyan list and have them slap around whatever comes into range. Really, they form the core of my army with the rest of the list supporting, buffing or protecting them. 

[Lord Marshal]

Veterans still die as well as Infantry Squads and for the cost of +1 BS it's just not worth it in my opinion.

[robofish7591]

I have a unit of vets with shotguns.  They aren't really very good, but they are a fun unit, and its always fun to jump out of your transport and blast things with shotguns!

 

If I was going to play competitively I would just run infantry squads.  Vets can be cool, but they are too expensive.

[Tyr13]

If vets still had doctrines, they might be worth considering. As it is, theyre just 50% more expensive infantry squads with access to more special weapons... at an increased price. And they dont even fill troop slots (Im still annoyed about that. Veterans are closer to troops than scions...)

[Otto von Bludd]

If vets still had doctrines, they might be worth considering. As it is, theyre just 50% more expensive infantry squads with access to more special weapons... at an increased price. And they dont even fill troop slots (Im still annoyed about that. Veterans are closer to troops than scions...)

 

This is a good point, if Veterans were still Troops I think I would use them more.  Triple Plasma veterans are nice but they are surely going to die unless you pay for a Chimera to hide them in, and even then they are going to die as soon as they get out.  How can they be justified when plasma scions exist? 

 

Edit: I didn't notice the OP  ran them as Vostroyans at first.  Vostroyan vets may actually be worth it as 30" range plasma teams (15" Rapid Fire) combined with the Vostroyan stratagem seems really good.  I would probably run 2-3 squads of them on foot behind a bunch of infantry squads. Vostroyans in general seem like a hidden gem to me the more I consider the implications of their ruleset.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Otto von Bludd

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm still a fan of the triple sniper/single autocannon vet squad. It's a good long range support unit. It would be better if vets could still get the boost to cover saves though.

[MinoanFresco]

What do you think would make veterans worthwhile? Upping infantry from 4 to 5 pts a model? Giving veterans a special rule like previous editions?

 

Also, is this feasible or nah?

 

2 vanguard detachments (Vostroyan)

6 company commanders

12 vet squads (3 plas ea.)

 

~1500 points

 

That's alotta' bodies. All hitting on 3+ at 30" (36" if you walk forward). Also aren't rerolls from orders better on 3+ models?

 

Thoughts?

[Major_Gilbear]

The issues with veterans are:

 

> Relatively high points cost

> High points cost of more effective special weapons

> No objective secured

> No better survivability than other regular trooper models

 

Balanced against this is:

 

> Slightly better BS

> Ability to take up to three special weapons in a squad

> Ability to take a Heavy Flamer

 

Looking at what you lose vs what you gain, they don't really seem worthwhile when you consider that a SWS or a Command squad provides almost the same benefits but for a cheaper cost (albeit at a smaller squad size). In fact, a Command plus an Infantry squad benefits from: more models, more squads, more special/heavy weapons (if you want), and all for pretty similar points cost.

 

I think there's two things that could make Veterans better, and neither is to do with points:

 

> Veteran Officer - the squad's Sergeant is able to give orders to their own squad only. This reduces the reliance on being near an officer for orders, and means that you can effectively have your Vet squads operate independently.

 

> Defenders of Humanity - like Troops choices and Leman Russ tanks, they become Objective Secured. If they gained this, being Veteran would essentially be a straight upgrade from an infantry squad for the appropriate points cost. They'd still be Elites rather than Troops, but at least then they'd be considered more fairly against SWS or Command squads.

 

Note that I am not suggesting they'd get both of these; I think that either one would make them worth considering for reasons beyond fluff/fun.

 

Another option I thought about would be to let Veterans have WS3+ as well, and to give them an option to swap their Lasgun for a Laspistol and sword (upgradeable to a chainsword). Of course, I realise that melee-equipped IG is generally not all that usual, but I think it could be used to represent various regiments recruited from Death/Feral Worlds very nicely.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts I had. :)

[ProminusIV]

I'm ambushing a tallarn veteran squad with 3 plasma and a plasma pistol, which is a nice extra plasma addition to a couple scion squads with plasma. 

 

I wouldn't use them as 'regular' infantry i think, really vulnerable to the anti-horde weapons most armies are carrying these days.

[WarriorFish]

I used to run a Vet squad regularly before, but with the changes to both the army building and Vets themselves they've been gathering dust in 8th Where you need numbers to protect your more valuable units as Guard always have done, coupled with the advantages 8th gives to more units over less ordinary Guardsmen squads are better in almost every way. I'd like there to be some customisability as there was before to give them an edge and flavour, but the difference in use is so pronounced I'd settle for any improvement... :confused:

[NatBrannigan]

I normally take a Squad with triple plasma in case I get a chance to use the Mordian order to blast a pesky character. When it works it's great but I tend not to get the chance so end up using them as a more expensive Infantry Squad. Seems a waste.

 

Triple Plasma hiding in a Taurox and now I have a triple Melta squad popping up in a Hades Drill. Now that later really is fun and should be included for rule of cool alone! Not exactly super effective though... Really I just take Veterans to give some aesthetic variety (mine are Praetorian and wear kilts, while the normal infantry wear trousers)

 

Maybe if they were troops? Cheaper special weapons? It annoys me that special weapons were increased in points to tone down Scions. Why not give Scions a "Special Forces Plasma Gun" or something with the same profile, just costing more points. Then Vets would still be an ok choice. Now if you take them, you're harming the competitiveness of your list. Not a problem for me really, but still annoying.

[Major_Gilbear]

It annoys me that special weapons were increased in points to tone down Scions. Why not give Scions a "Special Forces Plasma Gun" or something with the same profile, just costing more points. Then Vets would still be an ok choice. Now if you take them, you're harming the competitiveness of your list. Not a problem for me really, but still annoying.

 

The issue is that if you made Regimental BS3+ special weapons cheaper, then the Command squad would still be a better choice over the Veterans as a source of BS3+ special weapons.

 

That's why veterans really need something a little different to balance them than just tweaking points.

[Meavar]

Veterans regularly make it as the ambush squads of talarn. Since you are limited in how much units you can bring you need to bring some "good" units.

As regular squads the high price combined with loss of object secured is not really usually worth it to me. 

 

If I want more special weapons I can take 2 plasma special weapon squad for the price of one veteral squad, and get more hits and more bodies on average. 

 

Increasing the price of regular infantry would only make them worse, not really veterans a viable option. Remember even if they would cost the same veterans would still pay 99 points for a veteran squad versus 114 for  6 plasma special weapon squads. Sure you might lose some to overheating, since you have less orders but who cares.

Veterans should have stayed troops so you can pick between numbers (regular infantry) or damage (veterans) now scions are pretty much my veterans. Slightly more expensive, but with the higher armour save and as drop troops they are worth it in my mind.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Meavar

[Schlitzaf]

Best used for veterans, I believe is something like 3x Grenade Launcher, 7x Shotgun. Just under the price of a DoublePlasma Scion DeepStrike Squad, you get a threat range of approximately 21”, 25 flashlight equivalent shots. Or sometimes 3 KrakGrenades, 14 STR 4 Shots.

 

And you don’t need a babysitting officer compared to a infantry or scion squad to give FirstRank/Aim Orders. That is honestly properly only use I really see for Veterans.

 

That and being Penal Legion CountAs

[Withershadow]

Make them troops and give them their unique doctrines again.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Vets really got shafted this edition. Personally, I'm glad that Scions are troops, a 10 man squad with 4 plasma guns is a sight. Still, Vets get regimental bonuses, so that's something. 

 

Still, I think that vets should have stayed troops, most other armies are spoiled for choice in the troops category. 

 

I do like the idea of an assault squad, 3 grenade launchers, and shotguns. 

[Schlitzaf]

If Vets stayed as Troops, we would basically see what happened in previous editions with Vets as Troops sense 5th and no one took infantry. The existence of the platoon was admittedly also that in part. But who wouldn’t end up shaving a couple of infantry squads to turn their other infantry squads into Vets?

 

I’d almost want, instead if and only if infantry squads became 5 Points a Model. Vets to stay as elites, and also become 5 Points a Model. Essentially trading command points and orders for more reliable Gaurdsman.

[Feral_80]

Since the current adjustments have made conscripts equal in pts to infantry squads, why not make vets equal as well?

 

Apart from GW's balancing nonsense, vets once had great thematic rules. They should really get back their inbuilt mini-officer and doctrines.

 

As they are, I believe they are only (barely) decent with 3 gl or 3 snipers, as a cheap support unit. But they'll certainly never shine like this.

[zero88]

Yep, massed GLs and maybe a HB for a cheap, mobile firebase that can take more punishment than a command squad is about all that Veterans are good at.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Oh man... I really wish that Sgt Lukas Bastonne had come back! Make him an elites choice with vets as troops. That would be great. I'd also love to see some of the characters from the other regiments come back as HQ choices, like Captain Al-Rahem, and Commander Chenkov. 

 

But if Sgt Bastonne could come back, give him an aura that cadian infantry within 6" of him reduce enemy cover by 1. That seems fair. 

 

This is about vets though. Vets need something, aside from more special weapons and a better BS, to make taking them worthwhile. I totally forgot about conscripts as a troops choice. Probably because they're kinda poop...

[Withershadow]

If Vets stayed as Troops, we would basically see what happened in previous editions with Vets as Troops sense 5th and no one took infantry. The existence of the platoon was admittedly also that in part. But who wouldn’t end up shaving a couple of infantry squads to turn their other infantry squads into Vets?

 

I’d almost want, instead if and only if infantry squads became 5 Points a Model. Vets to stay as elites, and also become 5 Points a Model. Essentially trading command points and orders for more reliable Gaurdsman.

Why make Infantry squads 5 points per model? Why not make the veterans cheaper instead? Then you have the same trade-off you talk about.  Your complaints about 5th edition are completely irrelevant, considering the widely different ruleset. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Withershadow

[Schlitzaf]

It was also true in 6th and 7th. And I am saying Wither, keeps Vets as Elites but make them and Infantry 5. So question between the two is basically how many CP you want access to. Just an idea anyways

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I think people are too used to vets being “too good” and auto include. I for one hated how throughout 5th, 6th, and 7th guard armies became all veterans all the time. It was totally contrary to the fluff. They needed a nerf and they needed to be removed as troops. To give Guard more options in the troop slot I’d have preferred to see the return of penal legion.

 

I’d say all veterans really need is the return of doctrines.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Nicodemus Doloroso

[Otto von Bludd]

Elysian Veterans however are incredibly good, superior to Scions.

[Withershadow]

It was also true in 6th and 7th. And I am saying Wither, keeps Vets as Elites but make them and Infantry 5. So question between the two is basically how many CP you want access to. Just an idea anyways

I rather just not have vets as an option if that's the trade off, and I'm already used to paying 5 points for Krieg infantry (I just think they are better than all non-Krieg infantry).

 

I had the leafblower with veterans in Chimera list in 5th edition (even came up with it organically rather than chasing the online meta, because it was simply so much stronger than anything else in the book), they were nowhere near as prominent in 6th/7th.  They were used to fill out mandatory FOC slots because every other troop option was godawful. Now we have the same problem, except Infantry Squads took the place of Veterans. Conscripts were also briefly shining so bright that they became the de-facto troop choice for the entire Imperium, but after three nerf-bats to the head they are as inconsequential as veterans (in that you may be able to make one unit work if you build around it with relics and supporting characters, whether it's plasma infiltrators or vostroyan pistol-commanders leading a mob).