Passages from Ashes of Prospero (spoilers)

[Guest]

 

The xenophobic point is reductio ad absurdum, and is just that ridiculous and extreme for this scenario.

You say that like it is a bad thing. A reductio ad absurdum is a valid and venerable argument form, well used in logic and philosophy. Observing that someone has used one is at best noting the technique, at worst conceding that you were wrong. If you think the reductio doesn’t hold in a particular case, you should say why.

Do I really need to explain how comparing how changing past fluff and a major foundation/ideal if the emperor's will and the Imperium to using the other gender of humans in future marines, is a extreme example.

 

:Cuss it.

[Splog]

When your own position involves changing past fluff and a major tradition/choice of the emperor, then yes.

[Splog]

Do people think that the reunion of personnel and equipment in the story is going to be reflected in the codex?

 

I’d like to see the deathsworn as a 40k unit, but don’t think it likely we’ll be seeing new marines in the old scale.

[Guest]

When your own position involves changing past fluff and a major tradition/choice of the emperor, then yes.

How does allowing female Marines in the future using new technology and a new type of marine change past fluff?

[Guest Triszin]

Do people think that the reunion of personnel and equipment in the story is going to be reflected in the codex?

 

I’d like to see the deathsworn as a 40k unit, but don’t think it likely we’ll be seeing new marines in the old scale.

I have a feeling the equipment/personel named int he book might make an appearance int he dex.

 

 

 

It looks like the spacewolves Evacuated all of the 13th co from the gate matrix due to lukas the trickster

 

They all evacauted into the storm bird and went up the the longclaw

 

there was a awesome navigator and lots of space wolf ship thralls helping with teh evacutation. pretty awesome

 

the navigator is awesome, she gets personally thanked by arjac

[mactire]

God, I hope so.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Discuss the novel, not the merits of Female Space Marines or the everchanging history of GW fluff. 

 

That is all.

 

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart ]I[

[Wolf Guard Dan]

So I have been tracking my copy of Ashes. Today it started in my town, Chicago... and ended the day a few hours away in Wisconsin. FedEx has to get their stuff together. Looking forward to catching up soon.

[Fang_Guard23]

I'm really liking the possibility of tying together the old fluff wit the new fluff. I'm tried to make sense of the big revealing 

 

It is common knowledge that the 13th operate as multiple autonomous warband's. Now, in the audio drama the Thirteenth Wolf, Bulveye must've arrived a little later during the assault on prospero after finishing up with the campaign to conquer the Lammas Sector with the 954th expeditionary fleet (Wolf at the Door). After the burning of prospero was complete a the rest of the 13th company left without Bulveye.

 

So it's possible that Russ sent out the 13th Company after the siege and into the scouring. or bits of the 13th were becoming lost and each time a new Wolf Lord assumed overall command of what was left of the Great Company

[TheWolfLord]

I'm really liking the possibility of tying together the old fluff wit the new fluff. I'm tried to make sense of the big revealing 

 

It is common knowledge that the 13th operate as multiple autonomous warband's. Now, in the audio drama the Thirteenth Wolf, Bulveye must've arrived a little later during the assault on prospero after finishing up with the campaign to conquer the Lammas Sector with the 954th expeditionary fleet (Wolf at the Door). After the burning of prospero was complete a the rest of the 13th company left without Bulveye.

 

So it's possible that Russ sent out the 13th Company after the siege and into the scouring. or bits of the 13th were becoming lost and each time a new Wolf Lord assumed overall command of what was left of the Great Company

Yeah the ending really does have major significance for the future of the Wolves in my opinion.

 

I'd be very disappointed if none of this is expanded on with lore and even rules as it's a complete unique situation among the current 40k Chapters.

[Guest]

"He clambered through the hatch. The interior had been hastily emptied of bracing and other impediments to his bulkier Terminator armour, and the whole divide between the driver’s position and the crew compartment had been cut away."

 

 

Wut..

[Guest Triszin]

"He clambered through the hatch. The interior had been hastily emptied of bracing and other impediments to his bulkier Terminator armour, and the whole divide between the driver’s position and the crew compartment had been cut away."

 

 

Wut..

ride or die

[Fang_Guard23]

Now this little bit has me wondering

 

" It was nothing new, the first time Njal had set foot inside the aett of the Space Wolves he had felt the presence of the ancient dead, as though the entire structure was built not just as a fortress but also a conductor for the spirits of the departed"

 

an interesting thing to say about the Fang. Both the Emperor and Leman Russ had a hand in the design of the Fang, so what secrets did they build into it?

[Guest Triszin]

Now this little bit has me wondering

 

" It was nothing new, the first time Njal had set foot inside the aett of the Space Wolves he had felt the presence of the ancient dead, as though the entire structure was built not just as a fortress but also a conductor for the spirits of the departed"

 

an interesting thing to say about the Fang. Both the Emperor and Leman Russ had a hand in the design of the Fang, so what secrets did they build into it?

I'm thinking that the Fang may actually be the/A "Gates of Eternity"/ "Eternity Gate".

 

 

 

Additionally, there is more that goes into this in "WOLFSBANE". see the spoilers,

 

the Kerling*sp? is some deity of the dead and can commune with the dead. He resides on Fenris. Russ goes to have a chat with him, and he gives russ visions.

 

They are building Fenris up to be something, I'm not exactly sure but it is getting very interesting

 

 

Wrath of magnus reveal some interesting bits about the space wolves, especially Bran redmaw being the king of the wulfen, that the space wolves kept an untold number of wulfen in the catacombs of the fang, and that They have extensive stasis pods.

[Guest]

I could post entire sections about Lukas in this book. His "lack of leadership" is an actually extremely effective way to empower followers and train them to be future leaders. He allows his pack to be leaderless to make their own choices for the pack. This means instead of simply monkey hear, monkey do, his group is going "we are making this decision" and Lukas well then why it's a good choice. I wouldn't doubt it if we went another 200-300 years in the future if we saw someone Lukas taught being a Wolf Lord.

 

It's also 0200 and I can't stop reading between taking care of me sick daughter. Not the best written, there are some problems, but the overall theme is great. Many good characters.

 

Edit:

 

"‘Like the wolf,’ he told her again and broke into a run.

+It is hard to believe that a people famed for their sagas make such repeated use of trite metaphors.+'

Even writers mock the wolf wolfy mcwolf idea and themselves for using it.

[VIth]

Edit: Coldheart said he didn’t want ppl discussing FeMarines, so I pretty much deleted my post. (But it would be dumb and annoying.)

 

Re: book, it was good not great. Gav makes it a cut-and-dry case that Horus tricked Russ, which was very much not the case in Inferno. And Bulveye and Dek-tra are back, so I wonder if they’ll be pushing for Grey Slayers to be used in 40k (using Prospero Burns and Battle for Calth boxes)?

[Guest Triszin]

Edit: Coldheart said he didn’t want ppl discussing FeMarines, so I pretty much deleted my post. (But it would be dumb and annoying.)

 

Re: book, it was good not great. Gav makes it a cut-and-dry case that Horus tricked Russ, which was very much not the case in Inferno. And Bulveye and Dek-tra are back, so I wonder if they’ll be pushing for Grey Slayers to be used in 40k (using Prospero Burns and Battle for Calth boxes)?

Primaris Grey slayers has a nice ring

[Leif Bearclaw]

Re: book, it was good not great. Gav makes it a cut-and-dry case that Horus tricked Russ, which was very much not the case in Inferno.

Not really. Inferno makes it pretty clear that Horus did trick Russ into a more belligerent approach. If anything it makes to too clear, leaving little room for the PB Russ who tries to appeal to his brother to stand before before violence breaks out.

 

 

Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother Leman Russ. The exact contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the Imperium .... But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended to simply capture Magnus, but instead see him slain.

 

That's entirely in keeping with the 'Horus lied about a change in orders' idea that's been part and parcel of the HH series since the initial BL trilogy.

[TiguriusX]

I posted the relevant book passage in my spoiler tag earlier about the SW now knowing the true manipulation behind prospero that we fans have know for years

 

I am intrigued if there will be follow ups on that plot line

[TiguriusX]

It should strike at the hearts of all SW given the DA just did something similar to us.

 

The burning or Prospero shouldn't be a source of pride. It may be our biggest folly

[Karack Blackstone]

It should strike at the hearts of all SW given the DA just did something similar to us.

 

The burning or Prospero shouldn't be a source of pride. It may be our biggest folly

 

May?

 

I think the proof that the Burning of Prospero is the Space Wolves' single biggest mistake ever is in the simple fact that, given the reformation of the Wolves by Russ in The Wolf King and his work with Bjorn to turn the Legion and eventual Chapter's brains on, this is literally writing on the wall to me.

 

Imagine what could have been, had the Wolves and the Thousand Sons realized that the VIth's Rune Priests and the TSons' Psychic personnel could have truly helped the Council of Nykaea with a vastly better informed opinion as to how to proceed, had the two Legions been not just on speaking terms, but on actual terms of friendship. If the Horus Heresy is a constant series of tragedies, the Wolves and TSons fight is by far the single worst of them all.

 

The Wolves, with the Rune Priests, and the TSons, with their eventual benefits of understanding their method of casting on a fundamental level, with the added perspective of seeking to master their own internal power through willpower and the knowing of when and where to cast, and above all, when there is no reason to risk the chance of the warp, to not cast at all, well...

 

The single biggest tragedy to me from the HH and all that occurred is that the Wolves and the TSons could have literally reshaped the whole of the fight against Chaos and and the betrayal of Horus, should the two Legions been on friendly terms, and the Wolves been present on Terra, if Russ could have seen that the Emperor wanted to talk to Magnus, not drive him away. That Horus changed the orders Russ saw was the single biggest folly of the entire Heresy.

 

The Wolves got played, and hard; Horus utterly changed the fate of the entire galaxy because of his own selfishness and lust for power.

 

By the Allfather, what could have been had Russ been a thinker back then, as he later changed his Legion to be able to think for themselves, in The Wolf King...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Thousand Sons were traitors and oath-breakers.

 

While Prospero is a tragedy, it’s brought about by their arrogance.

[Huggtand]

The only thing I'll add is this;

 

Other chapters aren't Fenrisians**. When non fenrisians are used, they go full bore wulfen.

 

** Pre fenris space wolves did not have the canis helix.

 

I just read the whole thread and just wanted to comment on this. 

 

My main interest is 30k so I'm not completely up to date on the 40k wolves’ lore, but the pre Fenris Legion do have the canis helix right from the start (source Inferno). As many Legions, there where instabilities in the gene seed before they had Russ template to fix it but nowhere is it mentioned that there are any difference between terran or fenrisian recruits in regards to the implantation process.

 

Theoretically if a later mutation has made the canis helix a problem for non fenrisian, they could use the gene seed from the 13th company to implant non fenrisian.

 

They could also fix the population problem in the same way that Russ "probably" did (from Inferno):

"There are even unconfirmed reports that matters were in fact deliberately inflamed, the better to to test future candidates for the legion, and rumors have persisted that a program existed early on to expand the planet´s native population base, and that men and woman of suitable feral and primitive words were brought to Fenris against their knowledge and will, their minds and memories tampered with, re-programmed and set lose to fend themselves so that the the strongest would survive and swell the population pool for potential Legion recruits. There is no extant proof of this, but there are few who would claim such a thing as impossible and so the stories persist."

 

Combine the two solutions and the wolves could recrute up to Legion level again 

[Guest]

The Terrans didn't have the cup of morkai which contained the canis helix. The cup was only made per request from Russ to the Emperor. This cup contained the ingredients to allow his older Huskarls and jarls to become space Marines. In the lore this is where the first Wulfen happens from a Fenrisian who was jealous of Russ.

 

After partaking from the cup, there is the test of morkai where the initiate become something akin to a wolf. During this time they are released into the wild and must return to the the Aett.

[Huggtand]

But in the FW or BL 30k material there is no mention at all of the cup, not even in "Leman Russ" when he remember how his older retainers all braved the process. The problem given is that the mechanicum thinks they are too old to survive the organ implantation, nothing is mentioned about special ingredients either.

 

In “Leman Russ” the Wulfen also appears for the first time. This is not when his old Varagyr was inducted but much later at Dulan. The wolf priest don’t know why this happens but it has nothing do with any legionary being jealous of Russ.

 

Could the "in universe" explanation (my speculation) be that the cup and the special ingredients is a later addition to the process, for fixing a problem with the gene seed, and later attributed to Russ? The part where the first Wulfen is a fenrisian who was jealous of Russ do sound like a legend and since so much of the old history in 40k is myths and legends it’s not improbable.