Passages from Ashes of Prospero (spoilers)

[Guest]

The Leman Russ novel takes far after his jarls become space Marines. The novel talks about it on page 101. Jorin was a normal Fenrisian that had been fighting against the forces of Svein Rejksson. Jorin and Bulvye are some of those that became space Marines. Ove-thost in the first chapter is ending his trial of morkai and describe him as a wolf like thing.

 

The Wulfen in the novel is not the first time. In fact the 2nd or 3rd chapter is 2 Marines becoming Wulfen during an attack against the faash. Bulvye states it a curse that has plagued them for awhile. There is also talks with a wolf priest that they have been working awhile to try and remove it before Russ finds out.

 

My mistake its the cup of Wulfen and trial of morkai

 

(Leman Russ novel discussing the Cup of Wulfen)

"Years passed, and his body underwent further changes. The draught he had taken out on the eternal ice, the Canis Helix, proved to be the first of many trials. "

(More about the trial)

"‘That is why they take the test of the Helix,’ said Ulbrandr, sceptical. ‘They pass it. They overcome it.’

‘Not all, clearly,’ said Hemligjaga, still studying the items in his palm."

 

(Leman Russ novel discussing the Wulfen defect)

"Before them, suspended in the darkness, spun a hololith rendering of cells in some kind of plasma, swelling, merging, swimming. Runes blinked in and out of existence, picking out salient features, recording anomalies, totalling haemoglobin counts and hormone levels.

Bulveye hesitated before speaking. This was not his domain. ‘There must be some defect,’ he ventured at last.

Ulbrandr, the master of this business, used a brass dial on the altar’s top to expand and zoom in on the blood-cast. The lurid hololith scrolled in deeper, flashing up markers over points of interest. The Wolf Priest’s eyes narrowed, as he drank in the tomes of data contained in every snapshot."

(More)

‘Who knows?’ asked Hemligjaga.

‘Bloodhowl,’ said Bulveye. ‘Those of my company, much of the rest who serve under the jarl. This was not the first time.’

‘Outside the Great Company?’

‘None. Not the Wolf King, not the Einherjar.’

‘As far as you know,’ said Hemligjaga, wryly. ‘He’s no fool, nor are his servants.’

‘And nor is the Allfather, and nor are His servants.’ Bulveye curled his fist, then punched it against the altar’s edge in frustration. ‘Enough. Bloodhowl has made his ruling. We cure it, or we keep it hidden.’

[Huggtand]

Yes, and on page 54 he thinks back to when his own followers, the retainers of the Hall of King Leman Russ, were transformed to space wolves. The only reference to a drink, is that they talk about the terrible draught (of the canis helix), but there is no mentioning if this is any different in how the canis helix was introduced before Fenris.

 

In FW Inferno there is no mention that there is a difference in the gene seed process before and after Fenris, just that the canix helix is something that all space wolves have terrans as fenrisians.

 

I could have frase myself more exact, but it is still the first novel in the Heresy series where we see the wulfen. Of course in the story they mention that it's not the first time but we as readers have not seen them before.

 

But it's still no mention in the 30k material of the (40k fluff) cup of wulfen, that the canis only work on fenrisian or that the first wulfen was jealous of Russ. It could be that they are introduced later in the Heresy since FW is rewriting the narrative as they go along or that they are forging a completely new narrative.

[Guest]

The scene beyond the portal put Lukas in mind of his worst moments experimenting with a cocktail of skaldroot and wyrshrum to overload his Space Marine physiology in an attempt to recreate the occasional psychotropic journeys of his youth.

 

Lukas was a connoisseur of shrooms it seems.

 

Edit: done with the books. The end seemed to wrap up too quickly in my opinion. It leaves many more questions for me now. It also finally tells the truth about Prospero for both sides. I wonder how the rest of the SW will handle such info.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Finally tells the truth? From an in universe perspective, I assume?

 

What's so different about this version? Has Bjorn been lying to the Chapter for 10000 years?

 

I thought the 'Wolves were manipulated by Horus' thing was pretty well known. Then there's the whole 'Magnus was already damned' aspect from BL which I'd assume isn't brought up? Then there's the whole way the Burning itself, and the actions taken by the Sons, kinda proved all their critics right. I really don't like the 'Magnus/Sons did nothing wrong' line that seems to keep cropping up. As I think has been said before in this thread, the Sons' fall was tragic, but they were far from innocent.

 

Sorry if this seems a bit disjointed, but I don't quite get how a book without Magnus's pov can tell the 'truth' about Prospero for both sides, or how the Wolves impression of the fight has been wrong for 10,000 years, especially as the Wolves are the loyalist Chapter that should have the strongest links to the 30k era, thanks to the presence of Bjorn.

[Guest]

Finally tells the truth? From an in universe perspective, I assume?

 

What's so different about this version? Has Bjorn been lying to the Chapter for 10000 years?

 

I thought the 'Wolves were manipulated by Horus' thing was pretty well known. Then there's the whole 'Magnus was already damned' aspect from BL which I'd assume isn't brought up? Then there's the whole way the Burning itself, and the actions taken by the Sons, kinda proved all their critics right. I really don't like the 'Magnus/Sons did nothing wrong' line that seems to keep cropping up. As I think has been said before in this thread, the Sons' fall was tragic, but they were far from innocent.

 

Sorry if this seems a bit disjointed, but I don't quite get how a book without Magnus's pov can tell the 'truth' about Prospero for both sides, or how the Wolves impression of the fight has been wrong for 10,000 years, especially as the Wolves are the loyalist Chapter that should have the strongest links to the 30k era, thanks to the presence of Bjorn.

Bjorn wasn't high enough ranking during or before Prospero to know who gave the order. Bjorn was a nobody that only got orders from his Jarl who got them from Russ who got them from "loyal" Horus. When one of Bulvye's Old Guard clicks 2 and 2 together, what we know as Readers. The emperor never gave orders to Russ directly but via Horus, Horus betrayed the Emperor. Horus tried to destroy both loyal legions.

 

meanwhile the loyal 1kson in the maze realizes the same thing. The SW weren't the traitors attacking a loyal legion. He also sees how far Magnus had fallen and betrayed the Emperor deeming Magnus no longer his master. I also suspect he now sees what happens when you tamper with the warp too much now after seeing daemons and such.

[Leif Bearclaw]

But Bjorn was a close confidant of Russ during the Heresy, his immediate successor as commander of the Wolves, and (I think?) a driving force in the reinvention of the VI Legion away from the 'executioner' thing to the modern 'protector' mindset. If the entire 30k 'becoming nicer' arc of the VI Legion is predicated on Russ realising how he was isolated, then manipulated and used by Horus, surely Bjorn would know too? Hell, Hawser is directly told of Horus's treachery by the Daemon at the finale of Prospero Burns. The idea that the skald, who knew Bjorn as well as he knew any of the VI, never told the story of the novel doesn't make sense. Bjorn would know, and then be able to put 2 and 2 together once the Heresy kicked off.
 
Now, that revelation for the time-locked 13th (as much as I hate that concept)? Absolutely fine. But there shouldn't really be any revelation there for the 'modern' SWs, who should already know the story.
 

Interesting that the Son actually realises his Legion's fault. Shame it's just one guy in some ways, as that has some opportunity for interesting stories (even if my cynical side reckons Ahriman will just turn up and melt him, for reasons, before anything truly interesting can be done).

[Guest Triszin]

But Bjorn was a close confidant of Russ during the Heresy, his immediate successor as commander of the Wolves, and (I think?) a driving force in the reinvention of the VI Legion away from the 'executioner' thing to the modern 'protector' mindset. If the entire 30k 'becoming nicer' arc of the VI Legion is predicated on Russ realising how he was isolated, then manipulated and used by Horus, surely Bjorn would know too? Hell, Hawser is directly told of Horus's treachery by the Daemon at the finale of Prospero Burns. The idea that the skald, who knew Bjorn as well as he knew any of the VI, never told the story of the novel doesn't make sense. Bjorn would know, and then be able to put 2 and 2 together once the Heresy kicked off.

 

Now, that revelation for the time-locked 13th (as much as I hate that concept)? Absolutely fine. But there shouldn't really be any revelation there for the 'modern' SWs, who should already know the story.

 

Interesting that the Son actually realises his Legion's fault. Shame it's just one guy in some ways, as that has some opportunity for interesting stories (even if my cynical side reckons Ahriman will just turn up and melt him, for reasons, before anything truly interesting can be done).

I think they are prepping something for Isakaar Orr; I could see him leading a Loyalist faction of T sons, and have the space wolves go to bat for Isakaar; in a small way redeeming themselves for some sons of Magnus.

 

[TiguriusX]

 

But Bjorn was a close confidant of Russ during the Heresy, his immediate successor as commander of the Wolves, and (I think?) a driving force in the reinvention of the VI Legion away from the 'executioner' thing to the modern 'protector' mindset. If the entire 30k 'becoming nicer' arc of the VI Legion is predicated on Russ realising how he was isolated, then manipulated and used by Horus, surely Bjorn would know too? Hell, Hawser is directly told of Horus's treachery by the Daemon at the finale of Prospero Burns. The idea that the skald, who knew Bjorn as well as he knew any of the VI, never told the story of the novel doesn't make sense. Bjorn would know, and then be able to put 2 and 2 together once the Heresy kicked off.

 

Now, that revelation for the time-locked 13th (as much as I hate that concept)? Absolutely fine. But there shouldn't really be any revelation there for the 'modern' SWs, who should already know the story.

 

Interesting that the Son actually realises his Legion's fault. Shame it's just one guy in some ways, as that has some opportunity for interesting stories (even if my cynical side reckons Ahriman will just turn up and melt him, for reasons, before anything truly interesting can be done).

I think they are prepping something for Isakaar Orr; I could see him leading a Loyalist faction of T sons, and have the space wolves go to bat for Isakaar; in a small way redeeming themselves for some sons of Magnus.

 

 

 

 

It would not be too different from the aftermath of flight of the eisenstein IMO

 

I like redemption arcs. Ragnar himself would probably encourage it haha

 

It would create some damn interesting plot lines for loyal Thousand Sons and allegiance with Space Wolves

 

[TiguriusX]

But Bjorn was a close confidant of Russ during the Heresy, his immediate successor as commander of the Wolves, and (I think?) a driving force in the reinvention of the VI Legion away from the 'executioner' thing to the modern 'protector' mindset. If the entire 30k 'becoming nicer' arc of the VI Legion is predicated on Russ realising how he was isolated, then manipulated and used by Horus, surely Bjorn would know too? Hell, Hawser is directly told of Horus's treachery by the Daemon at the finale of Prospero Burns. The idea that the skald, who knew Bjorn as well as he knew any of the VI, never told the story of the novel doesn't make sense. Bjorn would know, and then be able to put 2 and 2 together once the Heresy kicked off.

 

Now, that revelation for the time-locked 13th (as much as I hate that concept)? Absolutely fine. But there shouldn't really be any revelation there for the 'modern' SWs, who should already know the story.

 

Interesting that the Son actually realises his Legion's fault. Shame it's just one guy in some ways, as that has some opportunity for interesting stories (even if my cynical side reckons Ahriman will just turn up and melt him, for reasons, before anything truly interesting can be done).

 

 

We don't know what Bjorn knows or was told by Russ after the HH

 

I can tell you from reading the novel that Njal Stormcaller had no idea and was brought to his knees by the revelation

[Guest Triszin]

 

 

But Bjorn was a close confidant of Russ during the Heresy, his immediate successor as commander of the Wolves, and (I think?) a driving force in the reinvention of the VI Legion away from the 'executioner' thing to the modern 'protector' mindset. If the entire 30k 'becoming nicer' arc of the VI Legion is predicated on Russ realising how he was isolated, then manipulated and used by Horus, surely Bjorn would know too? Hell, Hawser is directly told of Horus's treachery by the Daemon at the finale of Prospero Burns. The idea that the skald, who knew Bjorn as well as he knew any of the VI, never told the story of the novel doesn't make sense. Bjorn would know, and then be able to put 2 and 2 together once the Heresy kicked off.

 

Now, that revelation for the time-locked 13th (as much as I hate that concept)? Absolutely fine. But there shouldn't really be any revelation there for the 'modern' SWs, who should already know the story.

 

Interesting that the Son actually realises his Legion's fault. Shame it's just one guy in some ways, as that has some opportunity for interesting stories (even if my cynical side reckons Ahriman will just turn up and melt him, for reasons, before anything truly interesting can be done).

I think they are prepping something for Isakaar Orr; I could see him leading a Loyalist faction of T sons, and have the space wolves go to bat for Isakaar; in a small way redeeming themselves for some sons of Magnus.

 

 

 

 

It would not be too different from the aftermath of flight of the eisenstein IMO

 

I like redemption arcs. Ragnar himself would probably encourage it haha

 

It would create some damn interesting plot lines for loyal Thousand Sons and allegiance with Space Wolves

 

 

 

especially if Isakaar and Njal formed a group of Rune/sorcerors to study and learn from each other to create a new  form of psykers, a Mystics ordo within both chapters.

 

A mix of Shaman rituals/protections with the knowledge of the Tsons, that would make for some super strong Psykers that are very safe and knowledgable in why certain things happen if you do certain things.

 

Fixing the hypocrisy of the counsel of nikea

 

[Huggtand]

Björn did know

 

In Wolf King, page 59 and 60, Björn confront Leman Russ that Magnus was not the enemy and that they had been duped to attack the TS.

[TiguriusX]

Björn did know

 

In Wolf King, page 59 and 60, Björn confront Leman Russ that Magnus was not the enemy and that they had been duped to attack the TS.

 

I haven't read that yet.  Need to add it to my list

 

Thanks Huggtand

 

 

*edit

Says July 2018 release?

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

We don't know what Bjorn knows or was told by Russ after the HH

 

I can tell you from reading the novel that Njal Stormcaller had no idea and was brought to his knees by the revelation

 

 

But we do know what's reasonable to infer. The idea that the manipulation of Russ and the Wolves remained some massive secret, even amongst the Wolves themselves, is just stupid. If all it takes is knowledge of Horus being a Traitor for Bulveye's dudes to twig, the same thing should've happened with the rest of the Legion. I just don't see how Russ could've kept it a secret from his men, or how Bjorn could reach the rank we know he does without either being told or working it out himself.

 

So we're left with the question "Why has Bjorn lied to his Chapter for 10,000 years?" if even as senior an officer as Njal has no idea about a crucial point in his Chapter's history. Or it's just a terrible piece of storytelling (this bit specifically, not having a dig at the rest of the book) that should be ignored retconed asap (just like so much of the 'new fluff', sad times ).

[Huggtand]

@TiguriusX

 

Wolf King 2015 by Chris Wraight

 

It's a very good novella where, Leman Russ starts to question the space wolves role and seeing the need to change to survive. Björn is his confidence in this since Russ sees him as the future for the wolves. 

[Guest]

Well it could be that Bjorn never told anyone or forgot. Guy is 10k years old. The damage it would deal to the chapters morale would be devastating. Their only real victory in the HH is hollow. I mean we see how Njal took it and he is alot more reasonable than most of the chapter. Not to mention what would the other chapters think, but with the DA being dupped to attack the SWs now they might be more understanding. Except this time the truth needed to come out.

 

I wouldn't read too much into "why didn't Bjorn know?" he's a great character but is often inconsistent in what he knows or tells and why.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Well it could be that Bjorn never told anyone or forgot. Guy is 10k years old.

Is that really a satisfying answer though? Bjorn has always been a unique link the SWs have with their past. Having him either forget such an important fact in the development of the SWs, or just never mentioning it kinda makes Bjorn more pointless. More like the senile OAP in the care home, rather than a living link to the past and moral centre of the Chapter.

 

 

The damage it would deal to the chapters morale would be devastating.

I think I may have been explaining myself poorly here. The crux how the issue is 'how did the Wolves forget in the first place?'. Any effect on morale should've hit the VI immediately post Prospero, as the survivors went through the same realisation the 13th seem to in this book. Then they move on, the Legion evolves according to Russ's realisations, and it becomes part of their history, a testament to both the best and the worst of the old Legion. Having the Wolves forget such a key foundational aspect of their history, especially as they retain a unique living witness to these events, is BS of the highest order imo. It's like the Ultras forgetting the perfidy of the WBs at Calth, and only remembered that a fight happened, which the XIII eventually won, or the Shattered Legions forgetting they were betrayed at Istvaan V.

[Huggtand]

In universe it do seems odd that not at least the "inner circle" of the chapter has this knowledge, just like the DA have kept their low-point. Björn, at least in the Wolf King, thought it to be a valuable lesson for the wolves. But much kan happen in 10 millenia. 

 

It could also be that Gav thought it would be a cool revelation for the 40k and forgot that in the HH series at least a fair few of the wolves has the knowledge. I also have an understanding that it can be a hassle for the authors to remember every bit of new lore written for 30k and try to apply it to the 40k setting when they are writing.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

In universe it do seems odd that not at least the "inner circle" of the chapter has this knowledge, just like the DA.

 

It could also be that Gav thought it would be a cool revelation for the 40k and forgot that in the HH series the knowledge don't seem to be a secret among the wolves.

 

Gav also made the mistake writing about Egil Ironwolf still being alive. He clearly didn't master his source material. At the very least have someone with the knowledge proofread the book. Any of us could have told him Egil was dead. If he doesn't know about our most recent 40k fluff I don't expect him to understand that finer-point of the heresy TS-SW fluff.

 

It was important for Jurgen to state that revelation then for the plot. He needed to get his Wolf Lord to understand.

 

For the 40k Wolves although it may be weird Njal didn't know about Horus changing the orders it doesn't matter. They are dealing with corrupted 40k Thousand Sons now. Also it's not like they're going to tell that too all their new recruits. Who would be privy to that information 10,000 years later? Grimar? Ulrik? Does that information change the circumstances they're in? No.

 

Also I don't know how much changing the orders mattered. Russ tried reaching out to Magnus. I don't know if Magnus was ever aware of that though.

 

Just finished the book. It definitely left me wanting more. Hopefully we don't have to wait too long for our codex.

[Bulwyf]

I'll be honest, if there were ever going to be female space marines the only Chapter that should get them is Space Wolves. The whole Valkyrie shieldmaiden thing would be impossible to ignore.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I just finished the book.

 

as Gav goes, its worth a read. Nothing truly stellar but nothing outright garbage.

 

The story seems to meander a bit before rushing to the end in an attempt to cram in ever named model possible.

[Karack Blackstone]

I look forward to reading this book, Ashes of Prospero.

 

Are there any moments similar to the Chapter wide character building done in the iconic moment involving Ragnar, and a certain chainsword duel?

 

I hope so; please just type out, "Yes," or, "Wait and see," will also suffice.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Not in my opinion

[Guest]

Other than the spoiler I pointed above and the fact the 13th is back, no. We will have to wait and see what this all does.

 

Oh and Arjac has a mancrush on Deathblow.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Other than the spoiler I pointed above and the fact the 13th is back, no. We will have to wait and see what this all does.

 

Oh and Arjac has a mancrush on Deathblow.

 

How could I forget that?!

[Karhedron]

It could also be that Gav thought it would be a cool revelation for the 40k and forgot that in the HH series at least a fair few of the wolves has the knowledge. I also have an understanding that it can be a hassle for the authors to remember every bit of new lore written for 30k and try to apply it to the 40k setting when they are writing.

Laurie Goulding is the gate-keeper of the HH series whose job it is to keep the fluff consistent. I don't know if anyone has an equivalent job for the 40K stories (or even keeping the 40K stories in line with HH develpoments). I guess possibly not.