The Rule of Cool: How Far is Too Far?

[Roomsky]

So we've discussed the limits of grimdark already, but it seemed to me many in that thread were itching to weigh in on the setting being illogical in general rather than being illogically dark. Thus: here is another topic in the same vein. 

 

It's no secret that 40k basically runs on the rule of cool, what with rocket-powered asteroids to flying space cathedrals to sword fights in an age of such technology, a little madness is entirely welcome here. But how far can it go before it makes you, the reader, mash your head into the pages before throwing the piece into the local charity bin?

 

To keep things from running totally caustic, if you're citing examples please make an effort to provide an example of the rule of cool being done well to your mind; it'll be interesting to see if any such devices attract universal acclaim or revulsion. Please keep the topic away from both the previous similar thread (for grimdark), and the next will be about 40k's inherent melodrama so skip that too.

 

I'll start:

 

Done well:

 

Roboute Guilliman can survive in vaccuum.

 

Know no Fear is rife with such things, but this one seems to attract some contention, though I'm not entirely sure why considering some of the feats primarchs (and even Guilliman) have performed. To me, it benefits his character and the story as well as being generally awesome: it doesn't demonstrate Guilliman is invincible, but it does demonstrate beyond inhuman determination (and at this point, fury). Even with such an element of surprise and an apparently sure-fire way to bypass the whole close-combat expertise issue, but he just keeps coming. Contrasted to primarchs going toe-to-toe with frankly comical battlefield odds and coming out of them none the worse for wear, I think this is a great way to display their marine-among-marines status.

 

 

Done poorly:

 

Horus Lupercal is a moron.

 

This is the last time I'll bring this up, I promise. Vengeful Spirit is bloody stupid, in no small part thanks to the warmaster's ineptitude. Bear in mind, even with BL's habit of reducing strategy and tactics into the nonsensical or the oversimplified, Horus was still the guy who didn't want to land on Isstvann III because it would cost him precious time and resources. Keep in mind: even amidst his own frustrations of rear-line command, he didn't stride out to personally wreck face during the Dropsite Massacre. And yet, he repeatedly insists on arriving in person to lead assaults that are far more tenuous than either of those. I understand that he chafed to get out to the battlefield, but his near-death by Raevan's knight-titan's shows that his tactical skill is hardly infallible (worse still, he only survived thanks to events he didn't even plan for). In the same book he fires boarding torpedoes thousands of kilometres through the void through predicted arcs, but his godlike powers of prediction can't fathom a few Knight Titans hiding behind a hill? 

 

 

 

Discuss

 

Part II (Of 3) of Roomsky's "Likely to Attract Incendiary Comments" series.

 

Edited in light of new info.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Roomsky

[Laughingman]

Done badly: Any sort of Demographics involving math ..... 

 

Example:

 

Depending on the author the success rate of  individual legion aspirants ranged from 1% (Imperial fists) to 97% (dark angels on caliban) I worked out the math based on praetorian of dorn, Dorn had to kill  between 1.5 and 3 million children to create 30,000 space marines he asked of the former legion master...

[DarkChaplain]

One thing that I think is probably a bit too far was The Talon of Horus's assault on the Emperor's Children. I mean, Khayon dragging the ship behind them through the warp and all that. The scenes had me in awe, but in hindsight, and on a re-read especially, it felt really like too much. Incredibly cool and well done, but it really strained my suspension of disbelief.

[Marshal Loss]

And yet.  Horus climbs into a boarding torpedo, which already in itself is ludicrously reckless considering one stray shot would strand him basically irrecoverably in the void (unlike Guilliman and Polux he wouldn't be close enough to anything for easy recovery/magbooting), but he opts to do so when firing them cold at the enemy. Across however many thousands of kilometres. On an uncorrectable trajectory. This attempt at showing his unmatched prowess just makes him look reckless and totally ignorant of what would happen if he missed or got hit by stray fire. The entire campaign could have imploded right there in the face of most any random chance. 

 

Blegh.

 

Uh, no, he doesn't. Abaddon, Aximand, and Noctua lead the tomb ships against the orbitals while Horus remains on the Vengeful Spirit, later taking a Stormbird to the Guardian of Aquinas.

[Laughingman]

Pet peeve:  throw away analogies and  comparisons used to make something impressive but mathematically make no sense...

 

The Mechnavores and Sun snuffers described in perpetual the later of which is described as being as Large as Saturns rings ( 66000 km+ in diameter). I worked out the math assuming the object was a 1 km wide, 66000KM long and 30 cm thick and made of mild steel and got a silly number, like analogous to the entirety of world steel production for hundreds if not thousands of years... Even the Men of iron would have a hard time building the object in a reasonable amount of time....

[Knockagh]

The walking living city in David Ananadales Warden of the Blade was unforgivable stuff. I’ve never recovered from that amount of awfulness. Never bought another book of his. It was just awful writing and a terrible reading experience.

[Sothalor]

The walking living city in David Ananadales Warden of the Blade was unforgivable stuff. I’ve never recovered from that amount of awfulness. Never bought another book of his. It was just awful writing and a terrible reading experience.

 

Boy, if you thought that was bad, you should (not) give Death of Antagonis a go. That book was full of all kinds of special stupid.

[DarkChaplain]

I actually enjoy those "kinds of special stupid". 40k is inherently stupid and weird. There's floating monoliths, world engines, metal rings orbiting planets, hollowed-out planets of industrial stuff, and daemonic entities left and right. It's a universe in which mindbogglingly ridiculous things happen and exist. A walking city? Heck, have you seen Imperator Titans and all that jazz with cathedrals on their back?

 

Annandale nails the weird, unsettling chaotic nature of the setting. You rarely get those from other authors I find. Are they way out there on the plausability chart? Yes. But that's hardly a bad thing in a setting like this. Comparing his ideas for things in 40k to how AoS is attempting to be blatantly over the top and unplausible, I can clearly see a difference in approaches. If you want something insanely stupid, read, for example, Nick Kyme's advent story from Call of Chaos or basically the Realmgate Wars books.

 

AoS is very fire-and-forget with its overly creative elements, to the point where novels like Wardens of the Everqueen drown in them. Things happen and you're supposed to not think on them, because the story just moves on. With Annandale in 40k, those elements are central to his stories, if he has them, and they shake up the status quo of the setting in interesting ways. They're weird on purpose and the characters struggle with them. He does them well.

 

And let's not forget that this is a galaxy in which we had a War in Heaven, Old Ones, weird technology that even the Eldar don't remember or understand, a dark age of technology and Old Night where humanity screwed itself by being too advanced and decadent.

[Jareddm]

A positive one that I really liked was in Legion of the Damned.  The Excoriators knew they wouldn't have time to evacuate the population of a Cemetery World before the coming of the Cholarcaust, so they had the population bury themselves alive, each with a little bell to ring so that they could be dug up afterwards.  Maybe it's not as extravagant as other stuff here, especially with a chaos warband supposedly trampling on top of them, but it felt real enough that I give it props as a pretty smart way to save at least a sizable portion of the population.

[Roomsky]

 

 

Uh, no, he doesn't. Abaddon, Aximand, and Noctua lead the tomb ships against the orbitals while Horus remains on the Vengeful Spirit, later taking a Stormbird to the Guardian of Aquinas.

 

 

Hmm, totally missed that. I'll take your word for it, I don't have a copy anymore. All that being said, Horus remains far too physically prominent in that campaign for my tastes, especially considering the other examples cited. 

[rendingon1+]

Döne poorly:

Any author, any book with a scene where one marine decapitates another in combat. Have they ever seen ANY artwork depicticting SM? It's just impossible, especially with chain weapons involved. Unless "decapitation" means: cutting part of the head sticking above the pauldrons. In which case it's no longer decapitation. Ultra heresy if author writes about decapitating terminators.

Edited March 15, 2018 by rendingon1+

[Phoebus]

I actually enjoy those "kinds of special stupid". 40k is inherently stupid and weird.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this point of view. I think it’s fair to say that this setting was once much more whimsical about its scale, etc., but I doubt any Black Library author would say that’s what they’re aiming for — and if someone (not necessarily you) were to offer that it ends up being stupid in spite of the authors’ efforts, I’d question why they were even bothering with the setting.

 

Where the topic is concerned? I mean, I think it’s a subjective question, and everyone will have their own opinion. Me, personally, I think it probably goes “too far” when — ironically enough — the author just doesn’t really think through the concept they’re trying to present enough.

 

An example, for me, can be found in Ruinstorm. The Lion, Roboute, and Sanguinius, run into a stellar fortification of cosmic scale: it’s literally a fortress floating through space, capable of preventing Warp travel, and tall enough that the primarchs’ warships are like dots before it. It’s clearly the work of the Warp, so scale and dimensions are irrelevant. And you know what? If it was some bizarre chaotic construct that simply defied physics and whose physical manifestation was just a manifestation of insanity made possible by the Ruinstorm itself — something that just went forever but insofar as it only really existed where you went, I’d be fine with it.

 

But it’s not.

 

It definitely has a bottom, because it projects from a planet. The loyalist fleets are able to land forces on said planet and thus defeat the source of this impregnable planet.

 

So what’s the point?

 

There is no point to it. the semi-infinite space fortification exists just to be cool. It doesn’t prevent the primarchs from getting to the planet below it, and thus negating it. Even if the point was for Chaos to try to lure them to said planet and trap them, the fortification is moot. A far more direct mechanism could’ve been used to achieve the same effect, but wasn’t — because it wasn’t in and of itself “cool.”

Edited March 15, 2018 by Phoebus

[Knockagh]

I completely agree with Phoebus. I don’t read 40k looking for a special kind of stupid. The only kind of stupid I want is Cain, and that’s only knowingly for a giggle.

 

Yes it’s a make believe universe but I believe it when I read it. I’m there!

Perhaps it tells because I’ve hated AoS fiction from the start I don’t get it. Dark Chaplain likes it and that’s cool and explains why he likes Annandale it’s similar stuff. But it’s not for me. Different strokes and all that.

AoS fiction exemplifies the ‘how far is too far?’ question, it’s a setting that went too far for me.

[DarkChaplain]

I completely agree with Phoebus. I don’t read 40k looking for a special kind of stupid. The only kind of stupid I want is Cain, and that’s only knowingly for a giggle.

 

Yes it’s a make believe universe but I believe it when I read it. I’m there!

Perhaps it tells because I’ve hated AoS fiction from the start I don’t get it. Dark Chaplain likes it and that’s cool and explains why he likes Annandale it’s similar stuff. But it’s not for me. Different strokes and all that.

AoS fiction exemplifies the ‘how far is too far?’ question, it’s a setting that went too far for me.

 

That's a misconception there. I was using AoS as an example of what's way too far out there. I despise it. Recent stories have gotten more of a grip, but that Wardens of the Everqueen example I mentioned I tore apart because it was just inconsistent and ridiculous. I still hold it up as some of the worst BL has had to offer. AoS has weird metal waterfalls, dinosaur skeleton bridges and what not, and that's rather tame still. It's all over the place with its themes and just tries to reach for ever more insane superlatives. I hate it.

[Tarvek Val]

AoS is simply too over-the-top. BL killed off the Old World, which had lots of amazing stories and series (Gotrek & Felix, anyone? The Nagash trilogies?) and replaced it with the insanity that is AoS... 

 

As Dark Chaplain already pointed out, the stories are simply too illogical to be even remotely coherent; it's as though each story has to be more unbelievable than the last. 

 

As for Guilliman flying around without a helmet on, I think that was an acceptable scene. I believe his ship was in the upper atmosphere, and being a primarch would likely have given him a little extra resilience I'm sure. I am a bit skeptical of Vulkan literally falling through a planet's atmosphere... The fact that Vulkan suddenly became a perpetual out of nowhere annoyed me a little bit. The Salamander went from a bunch of friendly, fire-worshipping Space Marines to the only Legion with a literally immortal primarch in the blink of an eye? C'mon man...

[Orwell84]

 

That's a misconception there. I was using AoS as an example of what's way too far out there. I despise it. Recent stories have gotten more of a grip, but that Wardens of the Everqueen example I mentioned I tore apart because it was just inconsistent and ridiculous. I still hold it up as some of the worst BL has had to offer. AoS has weird metal waterfalls, dinosaur skeleton bridges and what not, and that's rather tame still. It's all over the place with its themes and just tries to reach for ever more insane superlatives. I hate it.

 

 

AoS is simply too over-the-top. BL killed off the Old World, which had lots of amazing stories and series (Gotrek & Felix, anyone? The Nagash trilogies?) and replaced it with the insanity that is AoS... 

 

As Dark Chaplain already pointed out, the stories are simply too illogical to be even remotely coherent; it's as though each story has to be more unbelievable than the last.

 

Thanks for the heads-up about AoS fellas :) I liked some of the Old World fiction because whatever magical shenanigans were involved it was still rooted in gritty 'reality'. When they killed the Old World off I wondered if AoS was a worthy replacement despite all the doom-mongering from veterans. Now I know not to waste my time :D

[DarkChaplain]

To be fair, AoS has gotten A LOT better the past year. Malign Portents, the recent expansion, actually had the type of marketing that you'd have expected three years ago with the launch of the system. They finally explained how the Realms work, for example, and novels by Reynolds, like Spear of Shadows, have done a good job (from what I gather) when it comes to bringing more of the WHFB gritty fantasy into AoS.

It almost feels like the design studio and the creative minds working on it have finally figured out some sort of direction they want to go in and are ready to settle down and bring back normal dudes.

That being said, I wouldn't bother with the first five Realmgate Wars books outside of completionism. I hear things got better from Warbeast onward, but that's where I stopped bothering already. With the omnibuses on the way this year, the value proposition may be alright though.

 

.....they're also bringing back Gotrek Gurnisson this year, by the way. 4-CD audio drama box set, for 60 bucks on Amazon right now iirc. He's searching for Felix, with the implication being that Gotrek is going to have a talking to with Sigmar. David Guymer is doing that one.

[WarriorFish]

AoS is not within the purview of the B&C; please stay on topic.

[Indefragable]

When it comes to Rule of Cool....

 

 

If it reminds me of Tom Cruise in Top Gun then it's cool.

 

Hidden Content

 

 

 

 

If it reminds me of Nicholas Cage in Firebirds then it's trying too hard.

 

Hidden Content

http://www.cagematch.org/content/3.articles/47.fire-birds/shot.jpg

 

 

[Xisor]

I find Annandale's brand of weird challenging, but it demarks a limit for me too.

 

(@WarriorFish - AoS seems immensely relevant for this conversation specifically as it contrasts to the pieces of 40k being discussed.)

 

And I echo the sentiment about early AoS stuff being a bit *too* much on the anything goes superlatives - it's an *excellent* example of where Rule of Cool goes from enhancing a story to being an out-of-context list of ostensibly Cool Things. (Think the rap bits of "Everything is Awesome" [yes, I realise this is a 40k forum, and Lego isn't strictly covered, but bear with me] wherein they go on to list things that are reportedly "awesome".)

 

In that respect - 40k has a few varieties to play with. In "Ruinstorm" I loved the fortress - not because it makes sense, but because it's boggling enough to challenge the "are there any rules here!?!" sort of question we're discussing. The whole novel, in a way, hinges on that: Lion, Roboute and Sanguinius all saying "oh, you motherhubbard, what the heck now!?" in the face of absurdities made manifest.

 

It tries to lure you in to thinking there aren't any rules in this game against the gods. (And, for early AoS - that's where it fails. It makes me think: "no, the thing they're setting out to do here is just like Black Books' no-rules argument. Not anything goes; NO RULES! ... followed by table flips and rage quits.)

 

So in 40k, that sort of thing is great when it circles back to reason or expands the set of rules in what feels like a stable, even sensibly daft way. (Contrast the extravagance of "Sons of the Hydra" with the more out-there bits of the Uriel Ventris stories.)

 

I'd summarise down to: Pushing the boundaries is good. Shattering every detail is bad.

 

Hell, I think Andy Chambers' Motley said things to that effect: "tweak the nose of Fate", rather than outright punch it in the face.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Xisor

[karden00]

Guilliman in space was 100% win.

Iirc, it wasn’t that the ship was in high atmosphere at all, but that the ship had its own pocket of very light atmosphere around it. Guilliman said “Primarch biology helped, but...”

 

Other rule of cool moments? Angron holding up a warhounds foot for a little bit( and damn-near dying in the process) or Lorgar pulling Thunderhawks out of the sky.

[bluntblade]

Sevatar riding a fighter. Allowed because of the detail on him feeling pain and dizziness from it, and it's hilarious.

[battle captain corpus]

@Xisor: the main reason Age of Sigmar is not relevant is because it doesn't fall into the Warhammer 40,000 setting. Black Library or not it does fall out of the mandate of the Bolter & Chainsword.

 

Of course there's plenty of alternative forums etc to discuss such worthwhile topics. Google is your friend there. ;)

 

BCC

[Knockagh]

 

 

I completely agree with Phoebus. I don’t read 40k looking for a special kind of stupid. The only kind of stupid I want is Cain, and that’s only knowingly for a giggle.

 

Yes it’s a make believe universe but I believe it when I read it. I’m there!

Perhaps it tells because I’ve hated AoS fiction from the start I don’t get it. Dark Chaplain likes it and that’s cool and explains why he likes Annandale it’s similar stuff. But it’s not for me. Different strokes and all that.

AoS fiction exemplifies the ‘how far is too far?’ question, it’s a setting that went too far for me.

That's a misconception there. I was using AoS as an example of what's way too far out there. I despise it. Recent stories have gotten more of a grip, but that Wardens of the Everqueen example I mentioned I tore apart because it was just inconsistent and ridiculous. I still hold it up as some of the worst BL has had to offer. AoS has weird metal waterfalls, dinosaur skeleton bridges and what not, and that's rather tame still. It's all over the place with its themes and just tries to reach for ever more insane superlatives. I hate it.

Sorry, that’s what I get for only half reading your previous post! Apologies. Yes general consensus is that the fiction, which is totally irrelevant to b&c is also totally crap. Good that’s settled.

Just scanning the spines on my bookshelf and the times when 40k fiction has stepped over the mark going to far for me has been very very few. My personal dislike of Annandales writing aside the only thing I could include is some of the events in the Beast Arises. But I’m not sure they even fit. Generally as long as we don’t get too much bat crazy stuff (like walking cities!) I’m ok with it.

[karden00]

Oh man, another rule of cool: I’m honestly not even sure how I feel about this one. It came about as I was pondering a topic from a while back about someone wanting 20k, and another frater said “that exists, it’s called Dune.”

It reminded me of the great expanse of time between us and 30/40k, and how, especially in the HH, we get little references here and there to literature that predates our real world, modern era.

Like the Ultramarines quoting Clausewitz, or Perturabo knowing about Da Vinci, or I don’t remember who talking about Shakespeare. Or a religion called Catheric.

While I never quite hate mentions like this, I’m never entirely comfortable with them either. Given the great son of time, even though there is technology, I usually think that there should be no way that we modern readers should have any familiarity whatsoever with the setting, even if all we are getting are throwaway mentions.