Discussion on the Events of Prospero

[LukeTheButcher]

So, this is a follow on from some previous posts and is a place to discuss the events of Prospero as portrayed in Inferno. 

 

So firstly, The Writ:

By the Word and the Will of the Master of mankind, yada, yada, yada,
It is hereby decreed that Magnus, (one eyed Red Dude), be brought forth in Censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons.
To this end id Leman Russ, (wild haired unshaven Dude), so charged upon the deliverance of his brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day.
So it is written, so it shall be.

 

 

So, that is the legal document empowering Russ to go to Prospero. Along the way, Horus’ warriors arrive to lend their support and bear personal communication from the Warmaster to Russ. Upon reading the message, Russ is alleged to have said that he 'no longer intended to simply capture Russ, but instead to see him slain'. This has given rise to the opinion, that Horus manipulated/duped/tricked Russ.

 

I disagree. I am looking at what Russ was entitled to do by the Writ vs what he did do. This will allow for the examination of if Horus had actually manipulated Russ, which would suggest that Russ enacted contrary to the Writ. Russ was empowered to use any and all means to affect the capture and return of his Brother Magnus. The suggestion is that Horus manipulated Russ into attacking Prospero with the intent of slaying Magnus.

 

1. Attacking Prospero was always a consideration (forming part of Valdor’s contingency planning at the gathering of the Host before Russ even joined the Censure Host)
2. The attacking of Prospero is clearly within the powers granted to Russ via the Writ of Censure.
3. Russ gave Magnus the opportunity to comply with the Writ of Censure
4. Only when faced with further defiance of the Will of the Emperor, did Russ order the attack of Prospero.

 

So far every act appears to be within A) the powers of the Writ and B) in the spirit of Writ. So, I fail to see this manipulation of Russ to act beyond his powers. For Russ to have exceeded the Writ, he would have had to have slain Magnus (which while inferred as Russ' desire, may have been nothing more that a heat of the moment comment). Even then, by enacting all out war (which Russ was entitled to do by the powers of the Writ) there was always a possibility that Magnus would be killed before being brought back to Terra. I would suggest that as a seasoned warrior, The Emperor was well aware of this fact and so their was a tacit acceptance that it was a conceivable outcome.

 

So I ask this: What did Horus manipulate Russ to do that was beyond what Russ was already entitled to do? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Honda]

So I ask this: What did Horus manipulate Russ to do that was beyond what Russ was already entitled to do?

 

 

A very good question and I agree it is a somewhat confusing statement to make.

 

I don't have Inferno yet, but have just recently finished "Prospero Burns" for the fourth or fifth time and have restarted "Thousand Sons".

 

Using  those sources, it is very clear that the Wolves  censure included any and all means necessary to apprehend Magnus. It was very clear that any resistance would escalate the level  of force to be used to exact that censure. There was mention of  no quarter being asked for, nor any given.

 

So, it would seem that the follow on information in Inferno (which post-dated both books), might be to embellish the account?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

So I ask this: What did Horus manipulate Russ to do that was beyond what Russ was already entitled to do?

 

 

So, it would seem that the follow on information in Inferno (which post-dated both books), might be to embellish the account?

 

 

sadly no, Inferno doesnt embellish. 

Copied from the thread that birthed this one:

 

page 24 and 25:

THE WILL OF HORUS

At Beta-Garmon, Russ was met not only by those warriors of his own Legion who had heeded his call, namely the battle-scarred warriors of the Third, Ninth and Eleventh Great Companies, but also by a detachment of warriors in sea-green armor of the newlt anointed Sons of Horus. At behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the Wolf King in his dire task- their leader, Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother, Leman Russ. The exact contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the later Imperium, indeed it is highly likely that non one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguements were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead see him slain.

[Kasper_Hawser]

If you would like my opinion, I think it is that Russ was reluctant enough to enact a full sanction despite having the full authority and the Emperor's implicit approval to totally kill the TS. This necessitated to the "duping measure" Horus felt he had to do to make sure Russ went the full nine yards.

 

What is said in Inferno as quoted by Coldheart and Dan does contradict slightly what happened in Prospero Burns where Russ does try to get Magnus to surrender using the wrong channel, but if I justify to myself, it could be said that even to the end, if Magnus had really stopped being a mysterious emotional prick and laid down his arms AND ordered his sons to do so, the whole thing would stopped snowballing. But the idiot cyclops had to be a schizo even before he got shattered and in the end, EVERYONE got duped. 

 

But then, I've always been of a mind that Russ is a reluctant executor of the Emperor's sanction even if he is obedient, he is by no means blind. 

 

If i can volunteer one more piece of fluff from The First Heretic by ADB:

 

 

After Lorgar's censure, Magnus came to comfort him and remarked Emps had actually considered erasing the Word Bearers ala Second and Eleventh legion. Among Lorgar's defenders, Russ and Magnus were actually in the same camp and Russ had remarked he didn't want to lose another brother again. 

 

Maybe I'm stretching it, but after two lost legions (note, I'm not saying he was responsible for it), he was reluctant to have a repeat of it with ANY brother, including Magnus.

 

[Huggtand]

There are a few inconsistencies in the novels published before Inferno, but they are so small that they don’t change anything overall.

 

I don’t really know what the big question is since the lore on this is pretty clear here  .

 

- In preparation for the rebellion Horus manipulated all of the loyal Legions so they would be neutralized or trapped at the outset.

- With the censure of Magnus after the Council of Nikaea*, he got an opportunity to take out both legion and possibly drive Magnus to his side

- To accomplish this, he manipulated Russ to ensure that Russ was set to kill instead of capture (as the big E had decreed)

- In Wolf King Leman Russ admits that he had been duped by Horus to attack the TS

 

* If Horus manipulated the Council of Nikaea is up for debate since it’s only vaguely hinted at.

 

 

Manipulation (the action of manipulating someone in a clever or unscrupulous way, Wikipedia) - Did Horus manipulate Russ? Horus changed Russ mind to suit his own agenda so yes, he manipulated Russ.

 

- Russ was set on following the writ and capture Magnus

- Horus changed his mind, and as stated in Inferno; “Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead see him slain”

 

And why wouldn’t Russ be manipulated by Horus? 

We don’t know what Horus communicated to Russ but as stated above, a; Horus as Warmaster spoke with the voice of the Emperor and b; Russ had no reason to distrust Horus. 

[LukeTheButcher]

Huggtand... I am curious...

 

Who can you determin from Russ' actions that his intent was to slay Magnus. How do you consider his actions would/should/could have been different if the intent was to capture Magnus by force (considering the massive Legion force and planetary defences in place)?

 

My annoyance is that other writers have jumped onto this conceit that Horus did absolutly everything flawlessly and have used it to imply this 'manipulation' of Russ to (in my opinion) the detrement of both his and the Wolves character and legacy.

 

Manipulation - To adapt or change (a thing) to suit ones purpose or advantage.

 

All the 'power' of the outcome (of the Writ) resided with Magnus. It was Magnus who would determin how Prospero went down. I can agree that it suited Horus for the two Legions to engage in conflict, but it took Magnus refusal of the Writ to cuase that conflict. Not Horus.

[Huggtand]

We all are of course always in the hand of the authors, but if I may speculate 

 

The events that transpired hinged in large parts on a couple of key points.

 

- The writ. Big E wanted Magnus brought to Terra to stand before the Throne, there to answer for his actions. This of course means that he must be alive (important point)

- To accomplish the above Russ could use any means necessary

- For his purpose, the last thing Horus wanted was a peaceful arrest. So, he manipulated Russ to change his intention to an execution instead

- Magnus, spying in the warp, was aware of Russ intention to go for the kill, and at first accepted this (very important point)

 

We know that the communication from Horus changed Russ intentions because Inferno clearly state this; “Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead see him slain”.

 

My speculation is that Russ intention indeed was the key. If he just had the intention of a capture (peaceful or not) things would have gone differently. Remember, Magnus was still loyal and distraught of what he had done and had the intention of atone for his tiny blunder (even when he knew that Russ wanted to kill him). If Russ had the intention of capturing Magnus, Magnus would have known this (spying in the warp) and my belief is that, he would have agreed to face big E peacefully.

 

If Russ intention was to capture Magnus I think things would have gone differently even if Manus had resisted. For start there would be a cooperation between the wolves, custodes, sisters and army in the assault. This would have led to much less losses on the censure host side. In my opinion that would also mean that Russ wasn’t set on a duel with his brother and maybe would have worked together with Valdor and the sisters to capture him (if that would have succeeded is a different thing all together ) 

 

So, I don’t really agree that the possible outcome was just down to Magnus

 

 

LukeTheButcher, I am curious why you feel so negatively about Russ role?

 

As Warmaster, Horus had the authority and opportunity to set up and manipulate all the loyal Legions before Isstvan. So, if not for the censure, realistically he would just have manipulated Magnus and Russ in another way. 

 

In my opinion Prosbero is a really good Greek tragedy at heart where the heroes’ good intensions are leading them to deeper tragedy and downfall.

 

Both Magnus and Russ are tragic heroes, and can’t behave in other way that they do since that would both break the classic format and lessen the story. It therefore follows that both sides must misunderstand each other and make bad decisions with good intensions or follow a path of duty that also leads to tragedy. We also have the evil advisor leading the Hero astray. If one side was “superior” to the other, we would not have such a good or interesting story.

 

We must also remember that the HH authors is trying to flesh out and make sense of just a few paragraphs of old fluff 

[LukeTheButcher]

Huggtand, thanks for keepign the discussion goign and raising some interesting points.

 

I agree with the 1st and 2nd points (the aim was to bring Magnus back alive, Russ could use any and all means to do so).

I find the third point harder to agree with though, as the sentance yo ucite is lacking context. Let me explain, I studied history and a bit that stuck in my mind was regarding General Custer. Before his last stand (if memory serves) he split his forces and his sub-commander said something like "don't attack those Indians without us" to which Custer replied "Yes I will".

 

"Yes I will" could be cocky, arrogant and vain. He will attack regardless.

"Yes I will" could be light-hearted, joking, sarcastic. The last thing he would do is attack.

One way Custer is reckless, the other unlucky. The context of a quote and its tone can be quite different.

 

But, back to Russ. If Russ had been manipulated as claimed... he would never have given Magnus time to surrender. What would be the point. So I am left withthe conclusion, Russ wasn't manipulated and followed out the Writ as written.

 

But another question. Do people consider Gulliman as being duped, tricked, manipulated or fooled into the muster at Calth? Why do we only see that langauge aimed at Russ and Prospero?

 

The reason I dislike the terms 'duped' and 'manipulated' is that they paint Russ badly, as an incompetent who is led by the nose (and his emotions) and is easily tricked (this was not weeks of crumbling Russ' resolve, just one message for goodness sake). This is not consistent with how I have percieved Russ (or any of the Primarch for that matter) from other material over many years. It is a point which detracts from one of the greatest feats of the Space Wolves, so the more I can highlight it's inadequecy the better.

 

I do appreciate the tradgedy of it all (very Greek like you have said) but dislike the overblown importance attached to Horus in all of this. It is a story of Pride (Magnus) and duty (Russ) - I see Horus as having no part in this.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Guilliman was duped at Cath and Sanguinius was duped at the Signus Cluster.

 

Both had explicit orders from the Warmaster and both paid dearly for it

[Leif Bearclaw]

Random additional. It's been ages since I read them, but I seem to recall a bit in either False Gods or Galaxy in Flames where the Traitors are having a command meeting, and someone brings up Magnus as a threat, someone who knows the truth of what's going on and what if he's brought back to Terra and the Imperium hears his side of the story. Horus replies along the lines of 'don't worry, I've had a chat with Russ, and made sure Magnus won't be leaving Prospero alive'. Did I imagine this? If not that sounds like a Horse's mouth admission of Horus's manipulations to me.

 

 

The reason I dislike the terms 'duped' and 'manipulated' is that they paint Russ badly, as an incompetent who is led by the nose (and his emotions) and is easily tricked (this was not weeks of crumbling Russ' resolve, just one message for goodness sake). This is not consistent with how I have percieved Russ (or any of the Primarch for that matter) from other material over many years. It is a point which detracts from one of the greatest feats of the Space Wolves, so the more I can highlight it's inadequecy the better.

Why does this bother you so much? Most loyal Primarchs were duped (except Dorn, who was just around Terra, and maybe Khan, his plotline seems to be a mess I don't really understand atm). Ferrus, Corax and Vulkan were duped into the Drop Site Massacre. Gulliman was duped into getting his Legion betrayed and battered at Calth. Lion and Sanguinius were both manipulated into traps/time sinks well away from all the important plays when the Heresy kicked off. I'd actually say in PB we see a Russ that wasn't being led by his emotions, but rather his sense of duty. Horus was the Warmaster, second only to the Emperor, immensely respected by many of his brothers (seemingly including Russ) and beyond reproach. That's why Dorn almost killed Garro in his denial when first told of the betrayal. Russ wasn't incompetent in believing Horus, just deceived. If anything, that makes Horus a better villain, not Russ worse. There's plenty wrong with the portrayals or Russ, Prospero and the Wolves in the current 30k storyline, but Horus mucking with the orders really isn't part of that imo.

[Huggtand]

LukeTheButcher, yes I see what you mean and I agree that Russ grace period for Magnus to give up peacefully can seem contrary to the part where Horus has manipulated him to slay Magnus.

 

Especially Inferno contradicts itself where on p25 Russ says that he will not capture Magnus, but instead slay him, but on p34 give him a chance to give up before in comes to blows (I love inferno but there are some flaws). It is handled better in PB where Russ gives out a grace period before he makes his duty.

 

As I see it, Horus changed the mission from “capture Magnus by any means” to “if Magnus don’t give up peacefully, kill him”. That would both explain Russ initial offer and the total burning of Prosbero.

 

But regardless of what we think, the context is clear in both the novels and Inferno; Horus changed the mission. That doesn’t make Russ incompetent. He had all reasons to trust Horus, as did Guilliman, Sanguinius and the Lion. For them Horus was the extension of the Emperor and spoke with his voice. If Horus said “oh, by the way, we discovered that Magnus is the Baby-eating Bishop of Bath and Wells and if he doesn’t come voluntarily, he comes in a body bag (wink wink)”, Russ wouldn’t have any reason to double check this.

 

I personally think it could had been written more consistently but it doesn’t reflects negatively on Russ or any of the other Primarch’s Horus manipulated.

[LukeTheButcher]

Dig the Blackadder reference Huggtand :-)

 

 

I keep finding myself coming back to the point though - The Writ say's bring him back by any means. Did Russ deviate from that Writ?

 

1. Go to Prospero

2. Give him chance to surrender

3. If he doens't, go dig him out of whatever hole he is in and bring hiim back.

 

A Legion on Legion conflict (ie, digging him out of the hole he was hidding in - and a recourse which had been planned for and was within the powers of the Writ) had a pretty high chance of killing Magnus anyway (even accidently). So that had to have been a risk the Emperor was OK with by granting Russ such sweeping powers (Without limit in law...). I can't logically see who you can empower someone to doomsday level of authority and expect a Sylvanian family ending?

So what has Horus actually got Russ to do?

 

Its like saying.... the Emperor has commanded Gulliman to gather his forces at Calth. Then Horus intervines by saying, Gulliman, gather your forces at Calth. And this is considered Horus as tricking Gulliman?  

 

I just can't get my head around the logic of the counter arguement.

[Huggtand]

Cant get enough of Black Adder 

 

Yes, Russ deviate from the Writ, and Inferno actually raises the question, from an observer position, why he did it. 

• The writ says to bring him back with any means necessary, inside or outside the law, to answer to the Throne (alive unless they have a medium on stand by)
• Big E wants his battery alive to power the golden throne, and with custodes, sisters and psy-titans to back Russ up I can see that they could have done that, even if Magnus resisted
• He sends Russ, not because he want's Magnus dead but because He knows that Russ will get the job done whatever happens.

That is the bit that I think Horus changed, from "I want him alive" to "if he resist, slay him". 

 

It is of course subjective but, I personally thinks it makes for a more interesting and tragic story, even if I understand that others don't.

[TheRealMcCagh]

Here is a passage from Scars that bears some weight on this conversation. In it, Russ is talking to his Jarl's aboard a damaged Hrafnkel about what just happened on Prospero.

 

"'Has such a thing happened before?' asked Russ, talking to himself rather than them, his expression caustic. 'Do sagas exist in which the Wolf King was drawn to the wrong place, doing the wrong thing? Has our shame ever been greater?'"

 

It sounds like Russ admits to falling for Horus' manipulations. Would Prospero have happened the way it did if Horus completely stayed out of it? Maybe, maybe not. What Horus did do was ensure the most desirable outcome (for him) happened. Winding up Russ with tales of Magnus' foul deeds and convincing him that "to bring Magnus back alive would be a waste of time and effort" (a quote from Galaxy in Flames) seems like pretty obvious manipulation. You could say he still gave Magnus time to surrender himself, but he didn't really, did he? Hawser wasn't a pawn of Magnus as Russ suspected. He could have actually confronted Magnus as he did Angron, but he didn't. That wasn't an option anymore, because of whatever Horus told Russ. 'no longer intended to simply capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain'  after speaking with Horus indicates meeting with Horus changed Russ' mind. And it changed it to a path that benefited Horus most of all. Is that not the very definition of manipulation? It seems like every single reference we have in the lore indicates that Horus, in one way or another, ensured Prospero happened the way it did.

[LukeTheButcher]

 

Yes, Russ deviate from the Writ, and Inferno actually raises the question, from an observer position, why he did it. 

• The writ says to bring him back with any means necessary, inside or outside the law, to answer to the Throne (alive unless they have a medium on stand by)
• Big E wants his battery alive to power the golden throne, and with custodes, sisters and psy-titans to back Russ up I can see that they could have done that, even if Magnus resisted
• He sends Russ, not because he want's Magnus dead but because He knows that Russ will get the job done whatever happens.

That is the bit that I think Horus changed, from "I want him alive" to "if he resist, slay him". 

 

Except... If Russ had been manipulated, why did he still give Magnus time to surrender? And how can you say the attack on Prospero was a 'Kill Magnus' angle and not a seize 'Magnus angle'? If Magnus had surrendered and then Russ sent in the Wolves to attack I would be fully behind everyone here, but Russ does exactly what the Writ says - Go and get him. I would suggest that people are selectively reading into this Horus input and ignoring Russ' action. If Magnus dead was the only desired result.... why no Virus bomb? 

 

 

Here is a passage from Scars that bears some weight on this conversation. In it, Russ is talking to his Jarl's aboard a damaged Hrafnkel about what just happened on Prospero.

 

"'Has such a thing happened before?' asked Russ, talking to himself rather than them, his expression caustic. 'Do sagas exist in which the Wolf King was drawn to the wrong place, doing the wrong thing? Has our shame ever been greater?'"

 

It sounds like Russ admits to falling for Horus' manipulations. Would Prospero have happened the way it did if Horus completely stayed out of it? Maybe, maybe not. What Horus did do was ensure the most desirable outcome (for him) happened. Winding up Russ with tales of Magnus' foul deeds and convincing him that "to bring Magnus back alive would be a waste of time and effort" (a quote from Galaxy in Flames) seems like pretty obvious manipulation. You could say he still gave Magnus time to surrender himself, but he didn't really, did he? Hawser wasn't a pawn of Magnus as Russ suspected. He could have actually confronted Magnus as he did Angron, but he didn't. That wasn't an option anymore, because of whatever Horus told Russ. 'no longer intended to simply capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain'  after speaking with Horus indicates meeting with Horus changed Russ' mind. And it changed it to a path that benefited Horus most of all. Is that not the very definition of manipulation? It seems like every single reference we have in the lore indicates that Horus, in one way or another, ensured Prospero happened the way it did.

 

Sigh.,, It sounds more to me like Russ lamenting he was not fighting the 'Traitor that mattered/the battle that mattered'. For the record, Inferno is quite clear on the matter of Russ giving Magnus time to surrender. Also consider, most normal systems (ie not those clouded by Magnus) would have seen the fleet coming weeks away. And before that, after the psychic backlash on terra, the Writ was communicated out by the Astropathic Choir to 'all major Imperial Sector Capitals'. 

 

It seems that, selectively, every single reference supports an illogical conclusion (and for that, writers will be writers. As we have seen previously, facts, consistency and common sense are not always relevant features in 30-40K fiction). 

[Karack Blackstone]

I was going to make this thread myself, glad to see it up already.

 

Horus was able to convince Russ, that is objective truth. Until the full details of the conversation are revealed, if ever, there's no telling how Horus accomplished this task.

 

Russ knew, after the fact, that he and his Legion got played. By reading The Wolf King, Russ and Bjorn reforge the Legion and turn it into the WH40K Space Wolves, as far as their motivation and drive to do the right thing, despite there even being standing orders to the contrary.

 

The fact that Russ noticed his failure and chose to correct it is all I need to know, long term. Yes, Horus was able to convince Russ at all is impressive; also, please remember that the Chaos Gods had already "blessed/cursed" Horus with power by that point in time. Leman Russ means, literally, if translated directly from the source languages, "The man of the people," and, in a way, he did not start off as such; Russ did however in time become just that titled person, and turned his Legion into the people that give hope to those that need it.

 

The situation was manipulated by those that had the sight, vision, will and drive to see their tasks done. The Loyalists were not blindsided fully, but, as the situation became apparent, they were able to begin to resist and put up enough of a fight to at least keep the Imperium as a whole in a state of semi-coherent existence.

 

As I typed up in the other thread, the one on Ashes of Prospero, The Space Wolves now, and Russ, with Bjorn by his side, in The Wolf King, figured out that he was both betrayed and deceived. This kind of thing goes back to the statement of, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me," and, per the above, Russ fixed this issue before it repeated again and cost even more lives.

 

Russ learned, and changed the Wolves; the fact that the Wolves now see that things could have been vastly different should be very educational, at the least.

[LukeTheButcher]

Sorry if this is sounding repetitive, but people seem to be skirting the points I am making. 

 

Horus: 

Convinced Russ of what?

Manipulated Russ to do what?

Duped Russ into doing what?

Tricked Russ into doing what?

 

That the Writ meant Death to Magnus? 

 

Always a possibility.

And if that is the case, why did Russ allow Magnus the chance to surrender?

And if that is the case, why did Russ not virus bomb Prospero? (or some other world shattering attack)

 

The attack on Prospero is consistent with a Legion action to seize a hugely capable target from his neigh impregnable fortress from the heart of his Legions defences. 

Therefore, the actions of Russ are consistent with the Writ. 

 

This is simple straight forward logic. Can anyone point out a flaw in my reasoning?

[Leif Bearclaw]

And if that is the case, why did Russ allow Magnus the chance to surrender?

 

Because he didn't really want to kill his brother? And so was willing to give him one last chance despite orders to the contrary. However, not getting a response (if we go by PB, thanks to using the wrong conduit, but ATS also raises the possibility Magnus just wasn't listening, too busy being all depressed, hence why Russ resorted to Hawser, more conventional channels having been already exhausted), he's left with no other option but to follow through with the (as far as he's aware) perfectly legitimate kill order.

 

 

And if that is the case, why did Russ not virus bomb Prospero? (or some other world shattering attack)

Because then there wouldn't be a story? For better or worse, accepting a very limited use of orbital weaponry on ground targets is kinda required for 40k's main premise, that ground war with swords is in any way viable in a far future, interstellar war context. Why didn't Ferrus just Virus Bomb Istvaan V?

 

 

The attack on Prospero is consistent with a Legion action to seize a hugely capable target from his neigh impregnable fortress from the heart of his Legions defences.

It's also consistent with a 'Legion kill' mission, escalating to a planetary purge when the psychic hit the fan and the Sons proved their critics right. It's one of the inherent issues with a 'retrieval' mission, if the 1kSons resisted, taking Magnus alive (as in the original order) was always going to be tricky, as there's hardly a stun setting for 'inter Legion war'. Not sure what you're getting at here tbh. I thought your position was that Russ always meant to bring war to Prsopero and kill Magnus, rather than it being a result of Horus's machinations. So what does the action actually at Prospero tell us about the point of contention, ie. the role of Horus, as nobody seems to be disputing the goal once the VI went planetside?

[Karack Blackstone]

Luke, the writ does not exist in a vacuum.

 

Horus apparently changed Russ from reading the writ, to possibly giving Russ a likely doctored new writ that specified what Horus wanted done.

Horus appears to have either replaced, amended, or altered the previous write that the Emperor gave Russ.

Horus duped Russ in that he was able to get Russ to drive Magnus to join Chaos, thus, keeping the overall balance of power between all the remaining Legions about even.

Horus tricked Russ, in that he changed Russ' mind as to the scope, mission, and end goal of the orders surrounding the censure of Magnus, and the Thousand Sons.

 

There is always unwritten writing on the wall; in this case, Russ knew that if it came to it, before he was intercepted by Horus, that Magnus was to be brought in alive. After Russ met with Horus, that instead became the new line of thinking, that Magnus must die.

 

The fact that the attack on Prospero went well at all is a huge sign of the capabilities of each of the Loyalist side forces, and I am starting to wonder how well the fight would have gone were there any other single Legion involved in the fighting there. The Wolves bore the brunt of the fighting; the Custodes helped when and where they could, and the Sisters of Silence shut down the TSons' huge disparity of Psychic capability. All in all, the Wolves showed themselves well, and served their purpose on the battlefield.

 

The rub here is that the Wolves, before the reforging of the Legion's mindset were simply a mindless blade, a weapon with no will, no sense of self that really defined themselves as individuals. After the Wolf King, Russ fixes this, thus my point.

 

Russ was played, and Horus had both likely buffs from Chaos at the time, and, the still present trust of every single other Primarch and above all, the Emperor. Horus played the situation well, and drove Magnus to Chaos, thus, keeping the fight between the Loyal and Chaos sides even. That this was accomplished has forced the Long War into the in-setting scope of death, destruction, and, constant harassment of the Imperium by Chaos forces ultimately shows that, instead, had the TSons been brought to censure, and, could have returned to the Emperor's fold, would have possibly swung the win to the Loyalist side.

 

Horus used Russ to drive Magnus into the Chaos fold. Russ, once he figured this out, fixed his Legion, and turned their brains on so that something like this would hopefully never happen again, so long as the Space Wolves remain diligent.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Horus used Russ to drive Magnus into the Chaos fold.

Isn't that more of an unintentional bonus? Horus clearly expected Magnus and the Sons to be wiped out, and for them to take the Wolves down with them (supported both by the Daemon in PB and Horus's own words I referred to in an earlier post). That's actually one of the best signs for just how well the Wolves pulled off Prospero. They beat the intended odds, and came through far more combat effective than the Traitors expected, remaining a concern and threat that Horus had to deal with as the Heresy unfolded, and ultimately (assuming BL don't it up and retcon the finale) were a major component of the Calvary to relieve Terra, forcing Horus to instigate the final showdown on the Vengeful Spirit.

[Karack Blackstone]

 

Horus used Russ to drive Magnus into the Chaos fold.

Isn't that more of an unintentional bonus? Horus clearly expected Magnus and the Sons to be wiped out, and for them to take the Wolves down with them (supported both by the Daemon in PB and Horus's own words I referred to in an earlier post). That's actually one of the best signs for just how well the Wolves pulled off Prospero. They beat the intended odds, and came through far more combat effective than the Traitors expected, remaining a concern and threat that Horus had to deal with as the Heresy unfolded, and ultimately (assuming BL don't it up and retcon the finale) were a major component of the Calvary to relieve Terra, forcing Horus to instigate the final showdown on the Vengeful Spirit.

 

 

Fair, I'm wrong then.

 

Horus then it seems wanted both the Wolves and the TSons to wipe each other out, if I read your post correctly?

 

If that is the case, the Wolves fought far better than I had previously given the Legion credit for on Prospero. I wonder myself how many others have noticed that, had there been any other Loyalist Legion in the fight instead of the Space Wolves, the Heresy may have actually succeeded, considering what nearly occurred there.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think the situation was win-win for Horus either way it crumbled...

Either Magnus is destroyed, and is no longer a threat
Or Magnus is brought to Terra in chains, and no longer a threat

Or Magnus would be injured by not killed, forced from the Imperium, an unwilling ally against Terra.

 

Here is the words of the Writ:
By the Word and Will of

the Master of Mankind,
Imperator,Imperatoris, Terra Regnum,
 
It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the 
XVth Legiones Astartes, be brought forth in censure
and bound by law to stand before the Throne

Imperial of Terra, there to answer for this actions
and those of his gene-sons.

To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VIth

Legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance

of his brother, by and and all means he may

find needful, without limit in law, sanction or
imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and
the last day.

So it is written, so it shall be.

 

The Censure Host, Terran Contigent

Being those units that were assembled on the Throne World of Terra to prosecute the Writ of Censure issued by the Emperor's hand in 004.M31, and decreeing that Magnus the Red, Lord of Prospero and XVth Legion of the Legiones Astartes, be brought in disgrace to Terra, there to face the judgement of his father.

To me this meaning is clear enough. The Emperor's Writ wanted Magnus brought to Terra in disgrace, maybe even in pieces, but whole enough to face his judgement.

 

Horus, the Brightest Star, The First Among Equals, uses his influence and power to change enough to turn this from a sanction to a purging.

 

JKC

[Dantay VI]

I would also like to add that this is not the first censure of a legion.

 

Guillemann censured Lorgar at Monarchia, took his legion as back up and blew Monarchia (the city) to dust to prove his point.

 

Russ would have been dumb to go alone to bring Magnus in.

 

The whole idea of taking an overwhelming force is to cow the offender with such a display that they would not be willing to resist, as resistance would spell doom.

 

The censure host was to do this exact thing.

 

Go to Propsero, with a display of might, bring the writ to Magnus and demand his return to Terra. Have an army at his gates to ensure if he said no, the army was back up to show the censure was no idle threat.

 

Horus turns the censure to a kill mission.

 

Horus wanted the Wolves wounded, and Magnus dead or turned. If Magnus got to Terra, he could reveal what Horus had become and end the Heresy before it gained any true traction. This occurred a year or 2 before the Istvaan atrocity.

 

The writ says bring him in, by any and all means. Horus changed it to kill Magnus and his legion by any and all means. Presumably because they were too warp tainted to be saved, or because Magnus would try to kill the Emperor if he were in his presence... Thus ending the great crusade and the imperium or any other reason to make Russ believe that Magnus and his legion were too dangerous to go to Terra.

 

Remember, before communicating with the Emperor, Magnus communed with Horus while he was in the temple of the Serpent Lodge on Davin and tried to turn him from Chaos (which would have meant Horus dying) and Horus turned his back, to stay alive and so Horus began planning his heresy.

 

For all we know Horus told Russ that Magnus tried to kill him using witch craft (in a half truth of what occurred on Davin) and changed the censure to a kill order while convincing Russ that Magnus was too far gone.

 

Stating he would kill Magnus could have been a heat of the moment thing due to said mis-information from Horus' emissary and after brooding on the topic during the flight to the Prospero system Russ reaches out to probably give Magnus a last shot at redemption and avoid past mistakes, like with Angron.

 

Once satisfied that Magnus would not change or answer to him or the writ  he reverts to orders given by Horus (who as warmaster is the Emperors proxy) and initiates the kill mission.

 

Russ did bombard the planet, but Tizca held due to the aetheric Kine shields and the voild shields surrounding it, therefore Russ had to go planetside with full force and kill the legion.

 

Also worth noting that Valdor was initially given command to of the censure host and it was he that gathered the forces together to prosecute te censure, however overallcommand was given to Russ, as only a primarch was to be given power over another primarch.

 

Inferno page 34 (not a direct quote)

 

Despite the insinuations of Horus, Leman Russ conceded that he would not use the full destructive potential of the fleet until giving Magnus a chance to explain himself, so the writ was borne that Magnus and his legion surrender themselves to the fleet or face the wrath of the Emperor.

 

Magnus and his Sons ignoored this and so the Burning of Prospero came about.

[Torvak Kyre]

I think the situation was win-win for Horus either way it crumbled...

Either Magnus is destroyed, and is no longer a threat

Or Magnus is brought to Terra in chains, and no longer a threat

Or Magnus would be injured by not killed, forced from the Imperium, an unwilling ally against Terra.

 

JKC

I highly doubt Horus would have been alright with Magnus being taken back to Terra. Sure he would have been out of it at the start but the Space Wolves would have been at near full strength and when he finally reached Terra he like would have been faced with the full might of the Thousand Sons. Sure they’re under arrest but I’m sure the Emperor would have let them off the leash when faced with Terra under siege.

[LukeTheButcher]

There seems to be some very

 

The logic of the events:

Gather a Host

As per the Writ = Yes

As Per Horus = Yes (and I'm being generous here as it was during the gathering Horus 'had a chat'

 

Attempt to secure Magnus surrender peacefully

As per the Writ = Yes

As per Horus = No

 

Assault the Planet (either to Kill or capture, can be seen both ways)

As per the Writ = Yes

As per Horus = Yes

 

So on the scale of things, it looks like Russ was keeping to the Writ rather than follow Horus 'chat'. So if he is not following Horus directives, how has he been manipulated?

 

The whole arguement of the 'manipulation' of Russ seems to centre around this 'kill Magnus' order. Was Russ trying to kill Magnus and how can anyone prove it? In one on one conflict, would Russ have landed the killing blow? Or clapped the cripple in chains? We will never know, so the only things we can logically look at are the proceeding events to draw our conclusions . And that suggests Russ was following the Writ of the Emperor. 

 

I can draw a comparrison;

Russ - "I got an e-mail from the Prince asking for $1,000 for a bank charge to release his millions. He said he would share it with me... Man, he tricked me good! He duped me right and proper! Man, did he manipulate me! He really fooled me into doing something I should never have done..."

 

Valdor - "So you sent him the money?"

 

Russ - "Nope. Never did that..."

 

And this is the arguement that Russ was tricked/fooled/manipulated.

Please remember, for all this 'kill-order' talk - Russ didn't kill Magnus...