Discussion on the Events of Prospero

[Dantay VI]

Only because Magnus used warp magic and disappeared from the fight after having his back broken

[TiguriusX]

I read prospero burns and 1k sons but memory of tiny details are long gone.

 

For discussion purposes is killing magnus the same as erasing prospero and killing his legion off?

 

If they are different then maybe the subtle manipulation of horus helped put magnus beloved legion in the cross hairs

 

It is the love for his legion that ultimately leads magnus to chaos and striking a deal

 

That could possibly be attributed to horus

[Huggtand]

As I see it:

 

- We will probably never know what Horus did to manipulate Russ. The only thing we know is that every author confirms that he did so in univers, it's a fact (whatever we think about it )

 

- The writ clearly states that that magnus be brought to Terra alive (to answer for this actions). He cant answer for his crimes, or power the golden throne, if he's dead

 

- Horus manage to convince Russ in some way to kill Magnus (if he not surrender first). This is a win either way for Horus and he probably gambled that Magnus wouldn't surrender 

 

In conclusion, Russ broke the original writ by going for the kill (when Magnus didn't surrender). He realize both this and that he was manipulated and this is described both in Wolf King and in Scars.

[Deadnaughty]

I think people are not thinking big enough when it comes to Russ mentioning that they were used.

 

From day 1 the TS's have been manipulated to ensure their fall to chaos. The rampant psychic power running through the legion, which leads to Magnus's desperation, which leads to his pact with Tzeentch to save his sons, which leads to their rise in sorcery, which leads to Nikea, which leads to their defiance and forces the Emperors hand to censor him, finally drving Magnus to chaos.

 

Its mentioned in Prospero Burns when Hawker meets the demon where it mentions that the work to turn the Space Wolves and Thousands Sons on eachother had begon long before Horus fell on Davin.

 

The manipulation of Russ isn't just a note given by an envoy of Horus, its one of a thousand threads that spans decades/centuries building up to the Heresy.

[LukeTheButcher]

So I am getting a distinct lack of counter arguments and just the same repetition of the 'Horus manipulated Russ to Kill Magnus'.

 

Except, I'm not seeing propositions regarding which actions Russ took which substantiate that proposition. Ie, no evidence.

(Please note - I'm trying to ignore the follow-on "lore" from other authors who have contributed to the whole contrived mess as I am confident that given enough time they will contradict each other anyway).  

 

QUESTION: What actions can directly be attributed to Russ to flesh out the 'kill-Magnus' line of thought - Actions which aren't also the exact same actions for Russ continuing with the 'Capture by any means' Writ?

 

Things which quiz me... If Horus re-write the Writ.... Why is there no copy of it in Inferno? If it is formal then why wasn't it a standard order and spread throughout the Censure Host? If it was, why is Valdor (Mr Loyalty) trying to convince Russ to allow more time for Magnus to Surrender? If Russ has kept the 'Horus Secret Orders' secret, then are you telling me that the Censure Host and Russ where working at cross purposes? If Valdor thought Russ was trying to Kill Magnus and go against the Writ... golly gee was he doing about it?

 

Or, as I suspect, no one (The Emperor, Valdor and Russ) was stupid enough to think that if it came to inter Legion conflict Magnus' safety could be assured? So Magnus death was an accepted potential outcome anyway, without any kind of input from Horus in any way shape or form. So Horus, did not Manipulate Russ. 

[Deadnaughty]

So I am getting a distinct lack of counter arguments and just the same repetition of the 'Horus manipulated Russ to Kill Magnus'.

 

Except, I'm not seeing propositions regarding which actions Russ took which substantiate that proposition. Ie, no evidence.

(Please note - I'm trying to ignore the follow-on "lore" from other authors who have contributed to the whole contrived mess as I am confident that given enough time they will contradict each other anyway).  

 

QUESTION: What actions can directly be attributed to Russ to flesh out the 'kill-Magnus' line of thought - Actions which aren't also the exact same actions for Russ continuing with the 'Capture by any means' Writ?

 

Things which quiz me... If Horus re-write the Writ.... Why is there no copy of it in Inferno? If it is formal then why wasn't it a standard order and spread throughout the Censure Host? If it was, why is Valdor (Mr Loyalty) trying to convince Russ to allow more time for Magnus to Surrender? If Russ has kept the 'Horus Secret Orders' secret, then are you telling me that the Censure Host and Russ where working at cross purposes? If Valdor thought Russ was trying to Kill Magnus and go against the Writ... was he doing about it?

 

Or, as I suspect, no one (The Emperor, Valdor and Russ) was stupid enough to think that if it came to inter Legion conflict Magnus' safety could be assured? So Magnus death was an accepted potential outcome anyway, without any kind of input from Horus in any way shape or form. So Horus, did not Manipulate Russ.

At the end of A Thousand Sons after Russ breaks Magnus's back he brings his sword down to take Magnus's head, but Magnus does his thing and disappears.

 

If he was trying to capture Magnus Russ would have stopped after breaking his back.

[LukeTheButcher]

Thanks Deadnaughty for keeping the minds works going.

 

However, we don't know if he would have followed though with the blow or stopped it "a hair's breath from his brothers neck' (or some other writer schtick). That's why I have tried to focus on the actions we can verify actually occurred, as we can't judge intent on something like that. 

 

Any more?

[Leif Bearclaw]

QUESTION: What actions can directly be attributed to Russ to flesh out the 'kill-Magnus' line of thought - Actions which aren't also the exact same actions for Russ continuing with the 'Capture by any means' Writ?

 

The attack on Prospero itself? Compare the two times we know Russ confronted one of his Brothers about their transgressions, Angron and Magnus. With Angron he came to talk, and they talked (and that's all that should be said here on that score, we don't need another Night of the Wolf digression). With Magnus, by the time the landing was ordered, it was a kill mission, hence the attack.

 

Given the complete silence of Prospero upon on the arrival of the Censure Host, what should Russ have done if the goal was capture? I'd say not launch a full scale assault on Tisca. An approach more like that used with Angron would make more sense, large scale Legion deployment but not immediate hostilities. Russ isn't an idiot, so it's reasonable to assume he realised that once blades are drawn, the chances of a live capture massively decrease. So, if capture was the goal, a peaceful approach makes the most sense, and if blood's to be shed, let the Sons be the aggressors.

 

That said, what's the point of this question? Isn't your stance 'Horus did nothing, Russ was always out for blood'? So why should Russ's actions be significantly different, as both options are 'kill Magnus' with the only difference being motivation?

 

 

Things which quiz me... If Horus re-write the Writ.... Why is there no copy of it in Inferno?

Because Inferno isn't an omniscient pov. We don't know the nature of the communications between Russ and Horus.

 

 

If Russ has kept the 'Horus Secret Orders' secret, then are you telling me that the Censure Host and Russ where working at cross purposes?

To a certain point, yes. Inferno covers this, repeatedly mentioning the friction between Russ and Valdor in the run up, as Valdor was still trying to get the 'Capture' solution.

 

 

If Valdor thought Russ was trying to Kill Magnus and go against the Writ... :cuss was he doing about it?

Again, Inferno covers this. Valdor tried to persuade Russ to not make it a kill mission, but eventually acquiesced because Russ had ultimate command. Russ may even have shared some/all of what Horus (the beyond reproach chosen Warmaster of the Emperor) has told him. If Valdor thought Russ/Horus were working from more recent instructions from the Emperor, he'd knuckle under and comply.

 

A response question for you. If you're correct, and there was no manipulation by Horus. What were the communiques from Horus about?

 

 

However, we don't know if he would have followed though with the blow or stopped it "a hair's breath from his brothers neck' (or some other writer schtick). That's why I have tried to focus on the actions we can verify actually occurred, as we can't judge intent on something like that.

I thought we were assuming Russ isn't an idiot. We're getting into major mental gymnastics territory if the answer to 'he raised his blade for the killing blow' gets a 'maybe he wasn't actually going to follow through' response.

 

Look, don't like that Russ was manipulated? No problem, you do you. There's plenty about the HH narrative I don't like and think makes absolutely no sense (Such as "why didn't the Legion go back to Fenris to re-equip and recover from Propsero?" instead they mope around some random nebula doing all for something like 2 years. It's just nonsense). However, that is what happened. Every source related to Prospero agrees with the 'Horus Manipulation' angle, up to and including the statements of both Russ and Horus. For better or worse, it's the 'truth' (as much as any 30/40k fluff is true).

[LukeTheButcher]

 

QUESTION: What actions can directly be attributed to Russ to flesh out the 'kill-Magnus' line of thought - Actions which aren't also the exact same actions for Russ continuing with the 'Capture by any means' Writ?

The attack on Prospero itself? Compare the two times we know Russ confronted one of his Brothers about their transgressions, Angron and Magnus. With Angron he came to talk, and they talked (and that's all that should be said here on that score, we don't need another Night of the Wolf digression). With Magnus, by the time the landing was ordered, it was a kill mission, hence the attack.

 

Given the complete silence of Prospero upon on the arrival of the Censure Host, what should Russ have done if the goal was capture? I'd say not launch a full scale assault on Tisca. An approach more like that used with Angron would make more sense, large scale Legion deployment but not immediate hostilities. Russ isn't an idiot, so it's reasonable to assume he realised that once blades are drawn, the chances of a live capture massively decrease. So, if capture was the goal, a peaceful approach makes the most sense, and if blood's to be shed, let the Sons be the aggressors.

 

Angron and Magnus are very different situations. In one, Russ has no mandate and Angron has not broken any Imperial Laws - Russ lands in force and a conflict ensues (we don't have clarity on the scale of this...). The other, Magnus broke Imperial Law, Broke Terra (tectonic truma!) and flouts Imperial Justice - Russ lands in force on a Legion held homeworld with state of the art defences. When enforcing the Law, I don't think the passive approach you have suggested is feasible.

 

 

 

That said, what's the point of this question? Isn't your stance 'Horus did nothing, Russ was always out for blood'? So why should Russ's actions be significantly different, as both options are 'kill Magnus' with the only difference being motivation?

 

My stance is more, Russ was a dutiful son fulfilling a terrible role (tragic Duty vs brotherly love)rather than a simpleton barbarian easily manipulated and led by the nose into a catastrophe - As is insinuated, popularised by certain writers and seemingly accepted by a host of SW fans Which I find weird.

 

 

If Russ has kept the 'Horus Secret Orders' secret, then are you telling me that the Censure Host and Russ where working at cross purposes?

To a certain point, yes. Inferno covers this, repeatedly mentioning the friction between Russ and Valdor in the run up, as Valdor was still trying to get the 'Capture' solution.

 

If Valdor thought Russ was subverting the Emperors Edict you think their would have been simple 'friction'? If Russ was going 'kill' against the Writ, I would have expected a lot more from Valdor. If Valdor new of the 'Kill' orders from Horus, than I expect Valdor to be 100% behind them (as Horus is the Emperors voice ect). Surely the friction is two forces not used to working together being forced to work together?

 

 

A response question for you. If you're correct, and there was no manipulation by Horus. What were the communiques from Horus about?

 

Anything. Maybe it was a subversive attempt to have Magnus killed. What makes more sense is Horus trying to prolong the conflict, tie up even more time/force/resources. Its not whether there was a communication, but if it fundamentally altered the actions of Russ. And I'm not seeing Russ' actions veering from the Writ.

 

 

 

 

However, we don't know if he would have followed though with the blow or stopped it "a hair's breath from his brothers neck' (or some other writer schtick). That's why I have tried to focus on the actions we can verify actually occurred, as we can't judge intent on something like that.

I thought we were assuming Russ isn't an idiot. We're getting into major mental gymnastics territory if the answer to 'he raised his blade for the killing blow' gets a 'maybe he wasn't actually going to follow through' response.

 

That was more an example of 'we don't know the intended outcome so can't use it as evidence either way.

 

 

 

Look, don't like that Russ was manipulated? No problem, you do you. There's plenty about the HH narrative I don't like and think makes absolutely no sense (Such as "why didn't the Legion go back to Fenris to re-equip and recover from Propsero?" instead they mope around some random nebula doing all for something like 2 years. It's just nonsense). However, that is what happened. Every source related to Prospero agrees with the 'Horus Manipulation' angle, up to and including the statements of both Russ and Horus. For better or worse, it's the 'truth' (as much as any 30/40k fluff is true).

Its not just that I don't like, I don't agree. The more SW fan's are prepared to accept it, than the more of this sort of poor writing and illogical xyz will be dumped on us. They shoe-horned Horus in where it really wasn't needed.

 

I am just prepared to make a stand when I see something you fundamentally disagree with. It might not win me friends, it might not make any difference, but if I can make one person re-think the base assumptions? Is that worth the effort of some thought and characters?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

I am just prepared to make a stand when I see something you fundamentally disagree with. It might not win me friends, it might not make any difference, but if I can make one person re-think the base assumptions? Is that worth the effort of some thought and characters? 

 

No, it isnt.

 

This whole thing is going in circles fruitlessly. It's why I checked out of the convo the other day.

[Karack Blackstone]

The writers of the fluff had a plan.

The Black Library, Forge World, and Games Workshop personnel responsible for putting the fluff into prose, otherwise known as the written fluff, scattered throughout the Horus Heresy Black Books, and the Black Library Horus Heresy stories have to conform to said plan.

 

Denying an objective truth will not change said objective truth.

 

Russ was played because the writers of the game decided it to be so; Horus had a plot armor role in this change of how things played out, after Russ was met by Horus. At that time, Russ was under no reason to suspect in the slightest that Horus had betrayed his Oaths to defend Mankind and the Imperium at large.

 

That this occurred was decided long ago, when the fluff writers set this plan into motion of how the story would be put into text, writing, and audio, as the case may be.

 

Russ was manipulated by Horus. Horus and the fall of Magnus was part of the long term plan of Chaos for some time. The problem is, from a meta level and outside perspective, if the Heresy had not played out exactly how it did, the Loyalists would have won; thus, no story. And the core premise of the setting wouldn't even be around any longer.

 

What sucks to me the most is that the Wolves and the TSons, in a better WH40K would have possibly been the best of friends, to the point that the Rune Priests could have tempered the TSons and their drive for knowledge no matter the cost. That said better situation never played out is necessitated by the simple fact that any other resolution would mean no WH40K.

 

Period.

[Deadnaughty]

There is no way Russ doesn't inform Valdor of new orders from the Emperor. 

Valdor is there to show the Emperor's with Russ, just as Malcador was there when the Word Bearers were sanctioned.

 

In which case either Valdor accepts the new Writ or he doesn't and would seek answers from Terra asap and likely withhold his forces (or worse) if Russ tries to follow through with that Valdor sees as illegal orders.

 

As LukeTheButcher said, its just normal friction between forced not used to working together.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

There is no way Russ doesn't inform Valdor of new orders from the Emperor. 

Valdor is there to show the Emperor's with Russ, just as Malcador was there when the Word Bearers were sanctioned.

 

In which case either Valdor accepts the new Writ or he doesn't and would seek answers from Terra asap and likely withhold his forces (or worse) if Russ tries to follow through with that Valdor sees as illegal orders.

 

As LukeTheButcher said, its just normal friction between forced not used to working together.

 

If Valdor is there to show the Emperor's views with Russ, then surely Valdor insisting on giving more time to Magnus to respond to Russ shows that the Emperor preferred Magnus taken alive, not dead.

 

also, Inferno states that "In orbit, despite the insinuations of Horus Lupercal, Leman Russ conceded that he would not unleash the full destructive capabilities of his battle fleet without at least allowing his brother a chance to explain his apparent madness."

 

"Yet, there was no answer. The fleet waited as Valdor entreated for further time with Russ on behalf of the accused Primarch to await a reply, but as Russ' fury steadily grew and as the ships of the fleet sat idle in space, still there was no answer"

 

Its kinda hard to read that differently, but I guess it is possible. I mean, some people still believe the Earth is flat...

 

EDIT: Sorry for re-engaging. I told myself I wouldnt but failed! ;)

[LukeTheButcher]

 

There is no way Russ doesn't inform Valdor of new orders from the Emperor. 

Valdor is there to show the Emperor's with Russ, just as Malcador was there when the Word Bearers were sanctioned.

 

In which case either Valdor accepts the new Writ or he doesn't and would seek answers from Terra asap and likely withhold his forces (or worse) if Russ tries to follow through with that Valdor sees as illegal orders.

 

As LukeTheButcher said, its just normal friction between forced not used to working together.

 

If Valdor is there to show the Emperor's views with Russ, then surely Valdor insisting on giving more time to Magnus to respond to Russ shows that the Emperor preferred Magnus taken alive, not dead.

 

also, Inferno states that "In orbit, despite the insinuations of Horus Lupercal, Leman Russ conceded that he would not unleash the full destructive capabilities of his battle fleet without at least allowing his brother a chance to explain his apparent madness."

 

"Yet, there was no answer. The fleet waited as Valdor entreated for further time with Russ on behalf of the accused Primarch to await a reply, but as Russ' fury steadily grew and as the ships of the fleet sat idle in space, still there was no answer"

 

Its kinda hard to read that differently, but I guess it is possible. I mean, some people still believe the Earth is flat...

 

EDIT: Sorry for re-engaging. I told myself I wouldnt but failed!

 

I quite agree. The wording does strongly suggest that the Emperor would have preferred Magnus alive (but with your choice of wording you seem to be agreeing that dead was also a consideration).

 

But had the orders been changed to 'Kill Magnus' I believe Valdor is so hyer-indocterined to the Imperial Law that he would have followed unquestioningly. There would be no pleading for more time for Magnus as the Law was clear (had the orders been changed). 

 

So the fact Valdor is pleading for more time for Magnus is just evidence that the orders were not changed. 

 

And why this may seem a circular/repetitive discussion is that I keep drawing the same conclusion and no one is giving me any rationale based on the actions of Russ to alter that perception. I just keep hearing 'Horus manipulated Russ, live with it. No I can't tell you how.." which I'll admit is a shade wearying.

[Dantay VI]

Horus changed the orders to Russ, Valdor never got to see what was said/ written by Horus.

Therefore likely questions Russ' change as he has no proof the Emperor or Horus actually changed the order.

 

However as earlier written in Inferno, only a primarch has power over another primarch, which meant Valdor could not overturn Russ' decision.

 

If Valdor is unsure, he could have sent a message to Terra (maybe he did, the book does not say and the "author" acknowledges that they do not have all the information) but never got a response. However he decided to play devils advocate, asking for more time or sticking to the original writ (because he has not seen the changes, just been made aware of them). Likely as such to keep peace with Valdor (who could likely have taken the Terran contingent out of the censuring) and give Magnus one last chance before going through with the razing. Russ may still have razed Prospero regardless of Magnus coming forward if the explanation showed Magnus was mad or beyond redemption as per Horus' order. For all we know if Magnus had come forward, had appeared sane or gave a reasonable explanation, Russ might have held off and asked Emperor and/ or Horus to rescind the kill order (for want of a better term) to find out what really happened.

 

However Magnus never responded and so rest is (fictional) history.

 

As for we cannot tell you how Horus manipulatd Russ. It is because nobody knows what passed between them and the authors of any and all sources have not given us the information, so we cannot give it to you. However from numerous places it is made quite clear that Horus had a hand in things and changed Russ' orders

 

Russ would not blindly go against his fathers express writ, which clearly states that Magnus should be brought to Terra to answer for his crimes, which he cannot do if he is dead. Horus changed it, but nobody knows how.... So yes unfortunately we all have to live with it.

 

As for Angron. He had been told to stop implanting the nails into his marines because of what it was doing to them. By the Emperor. Angron ignored him and kept doing it. Russ with no authority from the Emperor went to him to tell him to stop (presumably to avoid the Emperor discovering what was going on censuring Angron and his legion or worse eliminating them like the 2nd & 11th legions).

[LukeTheButcher]

Horus changed the orders to Russ, Valdor never got to see what was said/ written by Horus.

Therefore likely questions Russ' change as he has no proof the Emperor or Horus actually changed the order.

 

 

However as earlier written in Inferno, only a primarch has power over another primarch, which meant Valdor could not overturn Russ' decision.

 

If Valdor is unsure, he could have sent a message to Terra (maybe he did, the book does not say and the "author" acknowledges that they do not have all the information) but never got a response. However he decided to play devils advocate, asking for more time or sticking to the original writ (because he has not seen the changes, just been made aware of them). Likely as such to keep peace with Valdor (who could likely have taken the Terran contingent out of the censuring) and give Magnus one last chance before going through with the razing. Russ may still have razed Prospero regardless of Magnus coming forward if the explanation showed Magnus was mad or beyond redemption as per Horus' order. For all we know if Magnus had come forward, had appeared sane or gave a reasonable explanation, Russ might have held off and asked Emperor and/ or Horus to rescind the kill order (for want of a better term) to find out what really happened.

 

However Magnus never responded and so rest is (fictional) history.

 

As for we cannot tell you how Horus manipulatd Russ. It is because nobody knows what passed between them and the authors of any and all sources have not given us the information, so we cannot give it to you. However from numerous places it is made quite clear that Horus had a hand in things and changed Russ' orders

 

Russ would not blindly go against his fathers express writ, which clearly states that Magnus should be brought to Terra to answer for his crimes, which he cannot do if he is dead. Horus changed it, but nobody knows how.... So yes unfortunately we all have to live with it.

​

 

So can we agree on the following:

1. Russ had orders the had capture of Magnus as the preferred option

2. Horus had a come communication with Russ

​3. Russ would not go blindly against the Emperors Orders.

4. Horus had the authority to issue new orders if he saw fit.

 

But as I see it:

1. If Horus had issued revised orders:

     A. Russ would have no reason to conceal it from the Censure Host (Which did not happen).

     B. Valdor, as the most Loyal of the Emperors men, would have no reason to question nor try to subvert those Kill orders (Which he did).

     C. Russ, as one of the most dutiful Sons, would have no reason to request Magnus to surrender (Which he did).

     D. The attack to kill Magnus could have been achieve quicker, cleaner and with a lot less loss of life to the Censure Host (Which di not happen).

 

2. If there was no revision to the Orders

     A. Russ is duty bound to try and convince Magnus to surrender (Which he did)

     B. Having exhausted that option, Russ had the authority to retrieve Magnus by Force - as per the Writ (Which I assert he did).

     C. As it was a Home-world to a Legion loyal to Magnus, retrieval by Force was best achieved by using all available force (Logical conclusion).

     D. If such a conflict occurred, there was no commander who could have guaranteed Magnus survived the efforts to retrieve him (Logical Conclusion).

     

Horus had a communication for Russ - Yes. 

Did that Communication effect Russ' orders - We don't know

Did Russ' subsequent actions support either 1. Following the Writ or 2. Following the 'changed' orders - as per my points above, I would say Russ followed the Writ. 

And so If Russ followed the Writ.... Horus had no impact. So no manipulation. 

 

Is this making sense or are these wild logical leaps? 

[TheRealMcCagh]

Here is a little blurb from Magisterium that has some relevance here:

 

Valdor remained unmoved. 'Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if you could be done. I would wish to know why.'

 

Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor's faceplate. 'You're still clinging to that? Ha!' He turned away, swinging his greatsword casually. 'I've known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my father truly wished for such, He would not have sent me.'

 

'You were not sent alone, Lord Russ.'

 

Which makes it sound like Russ' mind was made up before any (failed) attempt at contacting Magnus. Which fits perfectly well with Horus managing to rile up Russ and get him to commit to killing Magnus rather than bringing him back to Terra. In False Gods, Horus says as much to Maloghurst, saying he convinced Russ that to bring Magnus back alive 'would be a waste of time and effort.'

[Alarik Nightrunner]

I haven't read any of the books in question, but have been following along and learned quite a bit. So thanks for the discussion, it's been valuable to me.

 

Regarding whether Russ was actually manipulated, from what I've read here, it's simple. GW clearly wants him to have been. All the excerpts try to make this clear. That said, it does defy the logical reasoning laid out. But we're talking about various authors writing at various times within an ever changing fictional universe. Everything making logical sense is not GW's intent, nor are they adept at it from what I can tell.

 

So while I agree Russ followed the original writ and his actions don't reflect manipulation, GW has strongly tried to sell the Horus involvement. I think that is all that matters, even though I also find it forced and disappointing.

[Huggtand]

 Sometimes you can't help yourself so one last round from me 

 

Is this making sense or are these wild logical leaps?

 

You actually make one assumption that changes the whole reasoning 

 

So can we agree on the following:
1. Russ had orders the had capture of Magnus as the preferred option
2. Horus had a come communication with Russ
​3. Russ would not go blindly against the Emperors Orders.
4. Horus had the authority to issue new orders if he saw fit.

1. Here you make the assumption that there were options. The writ clearly states that Magnus is to be brought to the Throne to answer for his actions (this means alive). There is nothing in it that says “if Magnus doesn’t feel like it, dead is also okay”. The Emperor issues only one option, capture Magnus.

This point is the key fact that shows what Russ original intent/plan/orders where

 

But as I see it:
1. If Horus had issued revised orders:
     A. Russ would have no reason to conceal it from the Censure Host (Which did not happen).
     B. Valdor, as the most Loyal of the Emperors men, would have no reason to question nor try to subvert those Kill orders (Which he did).
     C. Russ, as one of the most dutiful Sons, would have no reason to request Magnus to surrender (Which he did).
     D. The attack to kill Magnus could have been achieve quicker, cleaner and with a lot less loss of life to the Censure Host (Which di not happen).

1. The revised orders/manipulation is a fact according to all sources
   1. According to Inferno, Russ did tell his men that there was a change of plans. Russ and Valdor meanwhile kept their disagreement to private sessions regarding the intent of the fleet and there is no record of what was shared between them
   2. Valdor did disagree with the intent and wanted to follow the original plan but as Russ was the Emperors proxy and ultimate commander, Valdor didn’t allowed their disagreement to interfere with the mission (Inferno again)
   3. In orbit despite the insinuations of Horus Lupercal, Leman Russ conceded that he would not continue without allowing his brother one chance to explain himself. This confirms that Horus had changed Russ mind but also shows that Russ do care that much for his brother that he can’t execute him without giving him one chance for redemption. That Magnus doesn’t answer angers him though and leads to point D.
   4. Russ was enraged and wanted a personal assault, ordering the custodies and sisters to stay in orbit. This doesn’t reflect what the order was, just that Russ tempers was getting the better of him
       

2. If there was no revision to the Orders
     A. Russ is duty bound to try and convince Magnus to surrender (Which he did)
     B. Having exhausted that option, Russ had the authority to retrieve Magnus by Force - as per the Writ (Which I assert he did).
     C. As it was a Home-world to a Legion loyal to Magnus, retrieval by Force was best achieved by using all available force (Logical conclusion).
     D. If such a conflict occurred, there was no commander who could have guaranteed Magnus survived the efforts to retrieve him (Logical Conclusion).

1. Again, every source confirms the manipulation/revised orders
   1. After the manipulation/revised orders it was his personal honor and compassion that made him give Magnus one chance to surrender. Inferno clearly describe that this is in contrary to Horus wishes
   2.  No, the writ only gave Russ one option, to capture Magnus. That he choose to go for the kill shows that Horus had changed his mind from the original plan, as described before
   3. Inferno mentions that the censure force was really still under-strength to assault a Legion home world. This points to the fact that it was intended as a retrieval mission and that the kill mission was a later ad-on (after Horus communication)
   4. Again, the writ don’t give an option. Russ was to capture Magnus by any means necessary. With both custodes and sisters there was options to neutralize the TS and Magnus (at least in theory )
       

Horus had a communication for Russ - Yes.
Did that Communication effect Russ' orders - We don't know
Did Russ' subsequent actions support either 1. Following the Writ or 2. Following the 'changed' orders - as per my points above, I would say Russ followed the Writ. 
And so If Russ followed the Writ.... Horus had no impact. So no manipulation. 

 

• Horus had a communication for Russ - Yes
• Did that Communication effect Russ' orders – According to all sources, yes it did.
  - Did it change Russ intentions to deviate from the original writ? – Yes, since the writ did not include a kill-option
• Did Russ' subsequent actions support either 1. Following the Writ or 2. Following the 'changed' orders – since the writ only stated capture, Russ did followed point 2 - the changed orders to kill Magnus

 

All the above can be boiled down to:

• The original writ didn't have an option for killing Magnus
• Was Russ likely to go against the Emperors order? - No
• Horus had the authority to speak in the Emperor's name
• Did the communication from Horus change Russ intentions? - Yes, from a capture to kill mission

Then the logic conclusion is that Horus manipulated Russ to change his mind

[LukeTheButcher]

 

You actually make one assumption that changes the whole reasoning 

 

So can we agree on the following:

1. Russ had orders the had capture of Magnus as the preferred option

2. Horus had a come communication with Russ

​3. Russ would not go blindly against the Emperors Orders.

4. Horus had the authority to issue new orders if he saw fit.

1. Here you make the assumption that there were options. The writ clearly states that Magnus is to be brought to the Throne to answer for his actions (this means alive). There is nothing in it that says “if Magnus doesn’t feel like it, dead is also okay”. The Emperor issues only one option, capture Magnus.

This point is the key fact that shows what Russ original intent/plan/orders where

 

 

Hello Huggtand,

 

You are correct, this is my comprehension of the facts logically.

 

1. You have a criminal who has carried out an atrocity on Terra.

2. You know the Criminal is 'armed'

3. You send out your legal authority to arrest the Criminal.

4. You ensure your legal authority is armed too.

5. The consequence of both parties being armed is that you cannot rule out a fatality of either Criminal or Legal Authority. There is no guarantee on a weapon that it won't kill.

 

So, on that premise, yes, Captured was the preferred option. What do you think should have occurred if Russ had turned up and Magnus had transformed into some titanic Daemon Prince? By your logic,  no matter what the situation, Russ was meant to drag him back in chains. 

 

Unfeasible.

Unrealistic. 

 

That is why I suggest there where preferred options, but not guarantee's. You honestly think that if it came down to deploying the Ordo Sinister Psi-Titan's Russ could 'ensure' Magnus' survival? "Titans, set your city levelling ordinance to 'stun' only"?  Really? 

 

If that is the divergence that underpins your position......

[TiguriusX]

Capture Magnus (dead or alive since i see you keep arguing this)

 

Changed to destroy magnus and wipe his legion from memory...no survivors

 

It is subtle but enough to change the events on prospero

 

Prior primarch destruction appears to have spared their legion and added to the ranks of the ultramarines

 

Magnus justified his turn to chaos as the only way to save his sons. It is what makes the rubric fate such a cruel twist down the road.

[Dantay VI]

The writ is to bring Magnus in chains back to Terra. Nowhere does it say dead or alive. A dead Magnus cannot answer for what he has done. Ergo bring him back alive. Even if he has to be chased unto the ends of time.

 

Russ would obey the writ, he would not have been sent if the Emperor thought otherwise.

 

He also goes from I intended to capture him, now I intend to kill him after whatever Horus said/showed him. This was the point at which the orders were changed.

 

Russ has guns with him as a show of force, and if Magnus fired upon them he could retaliate, by destroying his world etc and force Magnus into a surrender with out killing him.

 

You have an armed criminal holed up somewhere, you send the officer to arrest him and you send the negotiator to talk and hopefully end the situation peacefully.

[LukeTheButcher]

Dantay,

 

If Magnus fired first.... the Censure Host could retaliate..... "By destroying his world" and forcing Magnus to surrender...???

 

So let me get this right. You don't think there was the slightest possibility in accidentally/inadvertently killing Magnus while you are "destroying his world"? Is there a safe way of doing such I am unaware of?

 

Killing Magnus was always a risk of 'trying' to capture him. I can't understand why people can't see this. I've had 0% Law Enforcement training or experience, but surely it is plain old common sense that if someone is armed, conflict could arise. Someone could be shot. That shot could be fatal. It was a risk in sending the Censure Host no matter who was in charge. And as a known risk, the Host was still sent by the Emperor who knew Magnus dying could be an outcome. Wile not his desired outcome, it can't be ruled out.

[Dantay VI]

It is possible, but my point is that it was not the intention of Russ or the Censure host to deliberately seek Magnus' death when the writ was first made by the Emperor and the writ makes it clear Magnus is to be brought back to Terra.

 

The censure host was there initially to intimidate and Magnus and get him to back down and come to Terra. It was also there so that Russ did not go there alone, but had a physical display of might to back up the writ.

 

Communication from Horus changed it from a censure and arrest to an execution, not just of Magnus but his entire legion, so whatever was said and done between Russ and Horus. Russ' had been changed from I intend to arrest Magnus, to I intend to slay Magnus.

 

The Emperor knew there may be some form of confrontation hence he sent his null maidens with the power to shut down Magnus and the sons warp shenanigans, making the capture easier,

 

You seem to come across as thinking Russ was using the writ as an excuse to kill Magnus (his mind was already made up to commit murder) and Horus gave him the means to do it by altering the orders.

[LukeTheButcher]

Nope. I don't suggest that Russ was using the Writ as an excuse to slay Magnus.

 

My argument is that the Writ, with the force and inherent implications, considered the Slaying of Magnus as an outcome that, while not preferable, was not outside its scope.

 - And if that's the case, Horus didn't manipulate Russ - as Russ was working to the Writ.

 

 

You are now adding in a suggestion that Horus' 'revision orders 2.0' included the destruction of the Thousand Sons, which is a new argument. And again, the destruction of anyone harbouring the criminal is fully within the 'by any/all means' of the Writ.

 

And if Russ is as  dutiful as we all believe, and if Horus changed the orders to 'Kill Magnus', why is Valdor pushing for more time for Magnus to surrender and why does Russ allow Magnus the opportunity in the first place.

 

These acts occurred because... They where not following an Execute Magnus order.