Discussion on the Events of Prospero

[TheRealMcCagh]

why is Valdor pushing for more time for Magnus to surrender

  Because Valdor doesn't take orders from Horus. He has the original plan still in mind, and thinks they should stay the course. But at the same time, he doesn't have the authority to countermand Russ or Horus

 

 

 why does Russ allow Magnus the opportunity in the first place.

 

 Executing a Primarch from orbit doesn't seem very Russ like. In Prospero Burns, Russ isn't weeping over Magnus' betrayal on the bridge hoping for a peaceful resolution. His parlay with the demon (thinking it was to Magnus) is far more 'Come and beg me for forgiveness you filthy warlock.' Maybe he wanted Magnus to come aboard only so Russ could give him a 40k sized 'I Told You So And Now Everyone In The Imperium Knows I Was Right All Along.'

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 Executing a Primarch from orbit doesn't seem very Russ like. In Prospero Burns, Russ isn't weeping over Magnus' betrayal on the bridge hoping for a peaceful resolution. His parlay with the demon (thinking it was to Magnus) is far more 'Come and beg me for forgiveness you filthy warlock.' Maybe he wanted Magnus to come aboard only so Russ could give him a 40k sized 'I Told You So And Now Everyone In The Imperium Knows I Was Right All Along.'

 

 

Eh, can't say I agree with this. This is what Russ says.

 

 

"I'm talking to you know because I hope you'll listen. I'm talking to as the personal courtesy extended from one brother to another. What is about to happen should not be happening. You know I do not want this.You know it tears my heart to commit against you, and it breaks the very soul of our father to place his sons in opposition. But you have done this. You have brought this action.

We gave you every chance, Magnus. We indulged your learning, we gave you room to explore. When we became fearful of where those explorations were leading you, and how they might endanger everything we value, we told you of our concerns. The Council of Nikaea, that was supposed to be a moment of reconciliation. You swore you would renounce the cunning arts. You swore! You swore you would abide by our father's ruling!"

His voice dropped to a whisper.

"You did not. You have proved your intent to ignore the ruling of Nikaea beyond all doubt. So this is on you.You must hav eknown our father's hands would be tied.He would have no other option than to turn to me to issue sanction."

Russ looked into Hawser's eyes.

"This is a courtesy then. From brother to brother. A grace period I would extend to no other enemy. Settle your affairs. Evacuate the civilians from your cities. Deactivate your defence systems. Bring yourself and your Thousand Sons out into the open, and prepare to surrender to me upon my arrival. Please, Magnus. The Wolves of Fenris have been unleashed upon you. Only you have the power to make the consequences bloodless."

He rose to his feet.

"Please, Magnus. Please".

 

I'd say from that Russ very much is hoping for a peaceful resolution, but recognises he's had orders, and without action from Magnus, there's no alternative to violence. That passage doesn't paint a prideful 'come and beg me', triumphant Russ. It's a sorrowful Russ, who clearly doesn't want to be in the position he's in, but believes he has a duty to fulfil. He's straight up begging his brother to give him an out, especially with the second 'Please'.

 

This is also a Russ that directly contradicts the passage you quoted from Magisterium (must admit, I don't know what that story is) earlier in the thread.

[TheRealMcCagh]

Certainly wouldn't be the first contradiction. Also, maybe he gets a little more gung ho once the fighting actually starts. I'll need to look back over Prospero Burns when I get a chance, I could have sworn he says something about 'begging forgiveness from me.'

 

Magisterium is a Constantin Valdor POV short where he is reflecting on the state of affairs on Terra (post MoM) and thinks back to Prospero a couple times. The conversation with Russ is one of those times where they (the Custodes) meet up with Leman Russ on the surface of Prospero. It's a pretty good one so I don't want to spoil anything

[Huggtand]

Thank you TheRealMcCagh for making me re-reading Magisterium

 

My personal favorite is Dorns question to Valdor

Dorn smiled, cynically and without warmth. ‘You see, there’s your old problem. You never see any fault in Him. You never push back. You never stop, think, say to yourself – is that sensible?’ He pressed his great, calloused hands together. ‘And now you have this conundrum, the greatest of your existence. You were created to be the embodiment of His will, but we can no longer discover what that is. You are His Voice, but He is silent. Can you think for yourself now, captain-general? That is what’s required.’

 

Yes, as I see it as Russ get caught up in his temper and battle lust and that comment in Magisterium can be seen in light of that, contrasting with the more cool headed description we have of him before the assault starts. It would not be the first time his temper got the better of him (Dulan).

 

 

LukeTheButcher, I think we have to agree to disagree 

 

You don't like the idea that Russ could be manipulated and I think that Horus; taking advantage of his authority as the Emperor's voice, and playing on Leman Russ temper and already big mistrust of Magnus, convincing Russ that capturing Magnus was a waste of time, makes a very good story and fits the characters

 

Leman's progression through the events also fits his character. He starts out with the mission of capturing Magnus (as per the writ), get wind up by Horus (go for the kill), cool down and give Magnus a last chance and, when he gets no response, gives in to his temper again and assaults. 

 

I personally really don't see any big inconsistencies, not even between the more resigned Russ in book 15 and the later more hot headed Russ. We just see him at different times, cool headed or getting his temper up. 

 

I just also want to say that Inferno really is the best source for the Burning of Prospero and addresses question like why Valdor behaves like he does. If you haven't read it you miss out on some vital background information thats makes the whole picture clearer. The novels covering it really only give us pieces of the story.

[LukeTheButcher]

Hello Huggtand, thanks for the comments and the inputs. You are correct, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Fundamentally, you seem to read meaning into Russ's actions that no-one can be sure about. While I am trying to assert Russ's intent from the actions we can be sure occured. My reading of those action is inconsistent with Russ being 'manipulated' by Horus.

 

And while your view supports your interpretation of the characters, this constantly hair-trigger temper Russ doesn't sit with my 'barbarian rage was a mostly a controlled act' interpretation.

 

I like my view of Russ better, otherwise Russ is just Angron 'light' but without a nails as an excuse.

[Huggtand]

Just a few comments 

 

I don't read meaning into anything. We know that Russ was manipulated because both Horus, Russ and Björn flatly tells and describes it in several novels. On top of that, the FW black book Inferno (the closest thing we have to an official source) also confirms this. It can't be much clearer than that 

 

I see Russ character mirroring the Legion as a whole. In the GC he is a blood claw, quick to both laughter and anger. See his behavior on Dulan as an example. In the HH he is realizing that both he and the Legion must change and that he actually had become the role he first just assumed (barbarian king). After the HH he is the wiser long fang. We can follow this progression especially in the novels Wolf King and Leman Russ. To compare him with an Angron light would be to diminish both of those characters.

 

The last part is of course my personal view.

[LukeTheButcher]

Many sources keep saying Russ was manipulated.

 

I ask: Manipulated to do what?

 

Kill Magnus - is what I am told.

 

I say: But killing Magnus was always a (calculated) risk of the Writ. Russ offered to accept Magnus surrender, as per the Writ. Even the assault was within the powers of the Writ and the logical next step whe nsurrender was rejected.  

 

Ah, but his intent of the assault was to Kill Magnus.

 

I say: And how can you determine the intent from these actions?

 

Oh no, don't look at his actions, look at this piece of fiction which, while never actually detailing or explaining how Russ acted contrary to his orders, still says Russ was manipulated to do something outside of the Writ...

 

I say: And what did Russ do? Did he Kill Magnus?

 

Well... err.. No. But he intended too....

 

I say: And how can you determine the intent from the actions?

 

...

 

 

 

I have put forth logical steps to support my assertation that Russ worked within the Writ and therefore was not working under 'orders' from Horus = No Manipulation.

I so far have not seen any logical counter-arguements, except some half hearted and highly ammusing claims that did nothing to impress me or convince me.

 

 

.

[Huggtand]

Based your post I'm afraid that you already have made up your mind and nothing presented here will convince you. Maybe it will amuse you some more though.

• The writ
  You keep claiming that killing Magnus was always a (calculated) risk or that captured was the preferred option of the Writ. But the writ has only one option, to capture Magnus. The whole disagreement between Valdor and Russ is because Russ after the communication with Horus went beyond the writ.  

Can you please show me where it is written that to kill him was also ok?

 

• Manipulation of Horus to change the mission parameters
  • Horus smiled. ‘Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus’s treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was… suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort.’
    (False Gods, p343)
  • Maybe so,’ Bjorn said, going carefully. ‘But Magnus was not the enemy.’
    Russ looked up. ‘Really? Tell me why not.’
    ‘Valdor knew about the daemon on Prospero, and he knew what it meant. Who gave us the orders? Who told us not to sanction Magnus, but to lay waste to his world?’
    The blue eyes never faltered. ‘It came from the Allfather.’
    ‘You know it did not.’
    ‘We did what was asked.’
    ‘We were deceived.’
    ‘We followed the order!’ Russ roared, taking a single step towards him. The twin wolves rose to their haunches, and the chamber suddenly seemed thick with the scent of kill-urge.
    Bjorn stood his ground. ‘And who could be relied on to do that? Who would carry it through completely, perfectly, even if it meant the breaking of a Legion?’ He took a deep breath. ‘We were dupes, my lord. We were Horus’s willing instruments.’
    ​(Wolf King, p59)
  • But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the message and hearing the words of his brother, Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain.
    (Inferno, p25)

Are the authors lying?
They all write that the original mission where to capture Magnus and that Horus changed Russ mind to kill him instead. Can you point me to anything in the sources that contradict this fact?

 

It is your claims that are not based on the written facts, but on what you yourself think that Russ intent was, and that the writ had more meaning to it than what the text says.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Only because you had made your mind up before you started this thread.

 

 

Many sources keep saying Russ was manipulated.

Yes. Including Russ himself.

 

 

Even the assault was within the powers of the Writ and the logical next step whe nsurrender was rejected.

No it wasn't. A full scale planetary bombardment and assault is not in line with a capture mission. There's a reason SWAT teams don't open arrest attempts with artillery strikes. Even if Prospero had begun with a targeted attempt on the Son's main palace complex, rather than a general city assault, you'd have something to work with on a 'capture' interpretation. Assuming that a peaceful landing and march on Tizca, forcing the Sons to draw first blood is out of the question (a premise you've blithely dismissed before as 'not feasible' without any detail). It would entirely be in character for Russ and the VI to send some men in a sacrificial/forlorn hope style direct strike at the Sons HQ, keeping the rest of the Legion in reserve if a full scale assault was necessary (similar things occur with the Watch Packs, and Night of the Wolf, where Russ was willing to sacrifice his men's live to try to reach Angron). But that isn't what happened. What we got was a full scale assault, far more in keeping with a 'kill mission'.

 

The possibility of violence was always implicit in the Writ, yes. That's why an army was sent rather than a diplomatic envoy. But what we see is violence used as the first option when Russ's pleas go unanswered. Which is not conducive to a capture mission. Because by that point it wasn't. Magnus had ignored/was unaware of Russ's final attempts to get him to stand down, leaving Russ no option but to follow through on the (apparently legitimate) kill order he'd been given.

 

 

I say: And what did Russ do? Did he Kill Magnus?

 

Well... err.. No. But he intended too....

 

I say: And how can you determine the intent from the actions?

Doesn't Russ think he did kill Magnus in Wolf King? And he's not beating himself up over his failure to enforce the capture writ, rather it's that he's been deceived.

 

Do you also suppose that Ferrus didn't intend to kill Fulgrim, just because he didn't manage to do it?

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

I have put forth logical steps to support my assertation that Russ worked within the Writ and therefore was not working under 'orders' from Horus = No Manipulation.

I so far have not seen any logical counter-arguements, except some half hearted and highly ammusing claims that did nothing to impress me or convince me.

 

 

 

Directly stated to have been manipulated from every conceivable angle/POV seems to be a logical counter argument. 40k lore is vague enough that there is always room for interpretation, but it doesn't seem fair to ask the community as a whole to go with your personal interpretation over what we are presented with from a primary source (i.e Magnus, Russ, Bjorn, Horus, Valdor and Malcador's personal point of view). Do you have any direct quote from a novel that says Russ was not, in any way, influenced by his meeting with Horus? Because we have a lot that do...

[TiguriusX]

Laying waste to an entire homeworld and slaying all members of a legion is vastly different than capturing magnus (dead or alive even is not as severe)

 

Prior sanctions included survival of marines and folding them into the ultramarines

 

Ask yourself what was the final straw that led magnus to chaos. I haven't read prospero burns for a while but i think it was to save his legion not himself

[Karack Blackstone]

Luke...

 

Objective truth and subjective perspective are different phrases for a reason.

Russ is the one that says, most of all, that he was deceived, because, at the time, he had no reason to believe Horus was lying to him.

 

The lore as it has been presented thus far, even into WH40K, is that the Wolves got played. The Wolves collective Loyalty is not in question. The unthinking nature of Russ and the Legion before the events in The Wolf King are the problem. Russ went out of his way in said book, The Wolf King, to change that perspective for the Legion and Chapter his Sons became, in time.

 

That Russ figured out he was deceived is the best Russ can do to improve the situation, after the fact; that whole, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me," thing. Magnus and Russ got manipulated into the situation that they did because the writers need a story, and, as I typed out before, without the Heresy playing out exactly as it did, there's no Imperial versus Chaos Long War.

 

I cannot change your mind, and, I never will; only you have that right. My advice is, however, that one can know a thing, and know it wrong; only you get any say in this case as to your internal dialogue goes, in life.

 

I mean no disrespect, far from it, in fact. I am unsure how else to try and put this, save the above. The closest we, as players, can get to the facts as they were is what is presented in the lore and fluff.

 

Russ says he was deceived. The lore facts as presented in all of the fluff thus far supports his own assessment.

 

Again, Russ at least learned. If it weren't for the sadness that is the Burning of Prospero in the story, the Wolves might still be an unthinking weapon wielded by others rather than themselves.

[LukeTheButcher]

Hello Huggtand, if I was better with the quotes this would be a lot neater, my apologies.

 

 

 

Can you please show me where it is written that to kill him was also ok?

 

It is not stated, you are correct. It is a simple logical deduction. Please can you be clear where my logic is at fault? 

1. When you send an army and make plans and contingencies for a planetary invasion and load up the most secretive and most dangerous God-Engines that walk on the earth, you must be expecting violence to be a possibility. True or False?

2. When a battle happens, people die. True or False

3. In the heat of battle, can anyone guarantee Magnus would not be killed in such a circumstance? True or False?

 

 

 

Then onto the quotes (and given my points in previous posts the irony is not lost on me)...

(False Gods, p343)

 - All from Horus's perspective. It is his belief, not fact. He might be wrong. He might be lying. Would he have a reason to lie? Moral? Propaganda? Ego?

This is why I mentioned Custer several pages back regarding context and why I have steered clear of the fictions as not being factual in nature

 

(Wolf King, p59)

 - Notice how the author shapes it to his whim? 'But Magnus was not the enemy...." - Well, that straight up wrong from the Writ onwards, so what faith do you have that the rest is correct? Again, this is why I have focused on the actions. 

 

 

(Inferno, p25)

 - And despite this anger of Russ, the orders are not issued out across the Censure host. And if this was a change of orders ... Russ doesn't follow them (the whole surrender thing of Russ and Valdor)

 

 

And no. The authors are not lying. But they are not being consistent with the actions of the events of Prospero. And those actions are consistent with Russ following the Writ. 

 

Deeds, not words...

[LukeTheButcher]

Hello Leif, thanks for the input. 

 

With regards to making my mind up, I don't think I'm alone there.

 

 

 

Regarding the assault...

 

Why do you consider a planetary assault not appropriate? I'll expand to give a differing perspective:

1. A terrorist has carried out a near cataclysmic attack on Terra.

2. With months of warning, a force is gathered to bring the Terrorist to justice.

3. At the Terrorists fortress home, the force are met with silence: a rejection of the first/last and only offer of a peaceful outcome.

 

 - Consider this.. where is the Thousand Sons Fleet? The silence from the planet, should it be seen as a challenge? Is this a trap (Fleet hammer, planet anvil?). What sorcerous powers could be employed by someone who has already attacked (via the warp) a planet light years away? You can't simply waltz into 'the enemy HQ' on their own home-world. You are facing a Full Legion with Titans of there own. Using the bombardment is simply am efficient means of reducing opposition defences, numbers and will.

 

Question: Why would you not use every weapon at your disposal?

Question: If the roles where reversed, would you honestly expect a small force to have any chance of success in a 'direct strike' at the Fang?.

 

It strikes me as reasonable to expect the Thousand Sons to be loyal and fighting to defend Magnus. Anything less that a full scale assault is hugely insulting to the capabilities of a fellow Legion with all its resources to hand.  We can't draw too many comparisons to the Night of the Wolf, as it wasn't against a Legions Homeworld and we have no idea of the scale of the forces involved. 

 

 

 

 

Lastly, I'm sure Ferrus was trying to kill Fulgrim. Not quite sure the point you were trying to make to be honest.

[LukeTheButcher]

 

Directly stated to have been manipulated from every conceivable angle/POV seems to be a logical counter argument. 40k lore is vague enough that there is always room for interpretation, but it doesn't seem fair to ask the community as a whole to go with your personal interpretation over what we are presented with from a primary source (i.e Magnus, Russ, Bjorn, Horus, Valdor and Malcador's personal point of view). Do you have any direct quote from a novel that says Russ was not, in any way, influenced by his meeting with Horus? Because we have a lot that do...

 

 

And we are back round to this. Yep, many authors repeat this claim of manipulation. As I have said repeatedly, the actions portrayed don't support this. 

 

The closest anyone has come to arguing over actions is Leif, and that seems to be more the appropriateness of the assault on Prospero, to which my responses are above.

 

I've already stated my views concerning quotes with regard to context, sub-text and vagaries of intent from bot protagonists and authors.  

[Deadnaughty]

Again, the manipulation is not just Horus talking to Magnus. Nikea, the writ itself all are already the result of Chaos manipulating all parties involved to set up for the Heresy.

Your focused way to narrowly on Horus and 'did Russ try hard enough to capture'.

 

Prospero Burns has a chaos daemon talking to the protagonist more then a year before Horus fell on Davin about how everything is being put into place.

[TheRealMcCagh]

It seems like you're throwing out all the evidence of manipulation, and than saying there is no evidence. Is there a quote from a novel you have that supports your theory? I seems like it's all personal interpretation or assumptions on character intent, nothing actually concrete. Maybe Wolfsbane will finally put this to bed, because at this point, it doesn't seem like any amount of evidence will change your mind

[LukeTheButcher]

​Hello Dreadnaughty,

 

Again, the manipulation is not just Horus talking to Magnus. Nikea, the writ itself all are already the result of Chaos manipulating all parties involved to set up for the Heresy.

Your focused way to narrowly on Horus and 'did Russ try hard enough to capture'.

 

Prospero Burns has a chaos daemon talking to the protagonist more then a year before Horus fell on Davin about how everything is being put into place.

 

 

This is moving away from Russ was manipulated by Horus and more Chaos manipulated The Emperor which I find this easier to accept.

[LukeTheButcher]

Hello McCagh,

 

It seems like you're throwing out all the evidence of manipulation, and than saying there is no evidence. Is there a quote from a novel you have that supports your theory? I seems like it's all personal interpretation or assumptions on character intent, nothing actually concrete. Maybe Wolfsbane will finally put this to bed, because at this point, it doesn't seem like any amount of evidence will change your mind

 

Its not so much as 'ignoring the evidence' as this fact: repeated saying 'Russ was manipulated' is not the same as explaining to me what Russ did do as a direct result of that manipulation that was not within the role and remit of the Writ.

 

Now, if Magnus had surrendered and Russ executed him, then bang on, I couldn't refute that. 

If The Emperor had said "use peace, talk to your brother" and Russ assembled an army, then again, the actions are not aligned to the intent of the Emperor's will.

But the Emperor said bring me the Criminal using any means within or outside of the Law - By that edict, Russ could have burnt 100 star system's, every planet the Thousand Sons had ever visited, ground them to dust if he thought it would bring Magnus to his knee's in surrender. Attacking Prospero seems quite tame in comparison.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Why do you consider a planetary assault not appropriate? I'll expand to give a differing perspective:

1. A terrorist has carried out a near cataclysmic attack on Terra.

2. With months of warning, a force is gathered to bring the Terrorist to justice.

3. At the Terrorists fortress home, the force are met with silence: a rejection of the first/last and only offer of a peaceful outcome.

 

Because the mission is supposed to be capture. The mission wasn't Legion-kill the Sons or burn Tizca, it was capture Magnus. A blanket assault on the city, following an orbital bombardment, which Inferno notes was specifically meant to bring the Sons to battle doesn't fit with a capture brief.

 

 

 - Consider this.. where is the Thousand Sons Fleet? The silence from the planet, should it be seen as a challenge? Is this a trap (Fleet hammer, planet anvil?). What sorcerous powers could be employed by someone who has already attacked (via the warp) a planet light years away?

Yes, there's plenty to be suspicious of during the Prospero approach. However, Inferno notes the Censure Host went to great lengths reconnoitring the surrounding area, trying to catch any fleet based traps. None of that really matters though, as it's immaterial to the point of 'what was the goal of the Host when they landed?'.

 

 

Question: Why would you not use every weapon at your disposal?

Because that's counter productive if the mission is 'capture Magnus' rather than 'kill Magnus and his Legion'. Again, when making arrests police don't turn to heavy firepower as the first resort.

 

 

Question: If the roles where reversed, would you honestly expect a small force to have any chance of success in a 'direct strike' at the Fang?.

Depends if the Wolves are resisting (ignoring for the moment that the Fang is much more of a Fortress than the Son's digs in Tizca). Success or failure is somewhat immaterial however, hence why I mentioned 'forlorn hope'. The point is making an attempt at surgical, relatively bloodless capture of the target (Magnus) rather than 'full scale war' being the first option. Making such a strike would lend credence to the idea that Russ was still operating under the initial writ, and intended to capture Magnus, rather than Horus's order change. Best case scenario, Magnus stands down with minimal bloodshed, everything's good. Intermediate outcome, mission success but a hefty death toll. Worst case, a few Wolves die, and Russ escalates the confrontation, as less indiscriminate approaches have failed. We know Russ and the Wolves are willing to sacrifice men for principle/orders, so an actual attempt at capture, escalating to full inter-Legion war when other attempts to capture Magnus have failed, would be in character and in keeping with the initial writ. They didn't do this, because they thought the orders had changed, thanks to Horus.

 

 

It strikes me as reasonable to expect the Thousand Sons to be loyal and fighting to defend Magnus. Anything less that a full scale assault is hugely insulting to the capabilities of a fellow Legion with all its resources to hand.  We can't draw too many comparisons to the Night of the Wolf, as it wasn't against a Legions Homeworld and we have no idea of the scale of the forces involved.

Then why doesn't the Censure Host come under immediate attack? It's equally reasonable to expect that Magnus hasn't told his Sons what's going on, and they have no idea why Russ is there. Hell, given the lack of response they get, it wouldn't be unreasonable to send a diplomatic/recon party to Tizca, to investigate why it's so quiet, rather than announcing your presence with gunfire. Shooting first is great if you're Han Solo, less good if you're the police.

 

The reference to Night of the Wolf was purely to highlight that Russ was willing to sacrifice his men's lives for principle/orders. So ordering a limited strike on the Tizca Grand Pyramid (or whatever the Son's HQ is) or sending a Watch Pack style envoy, even with the knowledge those men are most likely going to their deaths, is not out of character.

 

 

Lastly, I'm sure Ferrus was trying to kill Fulgrim. Not quite sure the point you were trying to make to be honest.

I was trying to draw a parallel to how you dismissed the idea that Russ meant to kill Magnus during their duel, which seemed to be based around 'well he didn't actually kill him, so we can't know for sure', especially in the post I quoted. The same logic can be used for Ferrus/Fulgrim, but few would try to make that assertion. It was trying to highlight why that particular line of reasoning is not very convincing.

 

You say the actions portrayed don't support the idea of manipulation. I've tried to explain why they do. That the Censure Host's actions at Prospero are more appropriate for a kill order, rather than the capture from the original writ. Your approach seems to be 'the writ was always a kill order', which is a flawed assumption. Yes, the possibility of violence is implicit in the writ, but it wasn't a 'Wanted, Dead or Alive' bounty on Magnus. He's clearly wanted alive back on Terra. Yet there's no evidence that any attempt was made to capture Magnus once the assault began. So which is more reasonable, that no effort was made to capture the target of a capture mission (original writ) or that it was a kill mission (Horus's manipulation)? Especially in light of the multiple in universe sources which state that Horus did manipulate Russ, again including Russ and Horus themselves.

[Huggtand]

LukeTheButcher, this is getting rather pointless since you are saying that, the authors of the story and the black book source material are not correct, the ones that actually describes what is going on in this fictional story 

 

It is not that this is just some vague thing that is hinted at, every author involved flatly tells that the manipulation happened.

 

The writ just says capture, period. There is nothing more to read into it. The night of the wolves is an good example where Russ have ordered his men not to kill a primarch despite sacrificing his men, so just because there is a battle they can just elect not to shoot at Magnus if they want to capture him. And yes, Russ do informs of the change from capture to kill; Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus, but instead to see him slain (Inferno, p25)

 

Russ intent on prospero to kill Magnus, after he gave him a last chance, is going against the writ:

Ahriman’s tears were bloody as Leman Russ dropped Magnus to the mud and brought the frostblade Mjalnar around to take the head of his defeated foe (A Thousand Sons)

Leman Russ, having finally battered his brother to the brink of death, brought down his blade for the final stroke (Inferno p61)

‘Do not think I grieve for Magnus,’ Russ muttered. There was animus there still. ‘Do not make that mistake. He was executed, and that was what we were charged to do.’ (I have already posted the part where they discuss that the order to execute was not coming from the Allfather but from Horus) (Wolf King)

 

If we don't have the actual novels and source material as a factual reference point, there is nothing to discuss about. For all we know the Burning of Prospero never happened, the authors are just trolling us and everything is just a dream Magnus is having in the shower (revealed in a later novel).

[LukeTheButcher]

Leif,

 

Yes, we agree the Writ was a capture order.

 

My own police annalogy is coming back to haunt me :-) Instead, consider this in a medievil setting. A villian burnt the Kings Palace. Heralds have been sent to the four corners of the land with the Kings ruling. An army is gathered and marchs off to the Villains castle. Once there, the army arrays itself for battle and gives a final ultimatium for the Villian to surrender. Greeted only with silence, an attack is ordered.

Now, you could just send me over the walls to capture teh villian. Or you could use your seige engines to bring down the walls, allowing for an easier entry with the intent of completing the capture.

I don't see this second option as unreasonable, but you do, so we will have to agree to disagree.

 

You mention that the missing Thousand Son's fleet is immaterial. I would point out that it's very unknown status would lend an urgency to the capture, nessecitating a more direct approach to the more restrained one you have suggested.

 

As to why the Censure Host doesn't just attack....They were following the Writ, one of my points. Its an action that re-enforces the capture position and undermines this kill order idea. Not one Person professed confusion at wh ythey didn't just go straight in? Surely they would if it was a kill order and everyone knew it.

 

 

Essentially, I think we have a very differing views.  From your tone, you are advocating Russ turnign up at Prospero as the 1st chance for this to end peaefully. I see the months of build-up and travel to Prospero as the 1st chance, the hour to surrender being the 2nd chance. When that time limit ran out, I can easily see that Russ' hands were tied and he was duty bound to do what he does best, follow an order from the Emperor unfailingly.

[LukeTheButcher]

Huggtand, it is getting pointless I agree.

 

You are correct, multiple sources say this manipulation happened, and yet I have not seen anyone confirm the actions that demonstrate this or had anyone explain to my satisfaction.

 

Repeating a thing does not make it so. I suspect the writers would have difficulty in explaining the manipulation too, especially as the main ting Russ is meant to have been manipulated into doing, he didn't do.

 

Your quote - A Thousand Sons - Ahrimans perspective, how does he know what Russ intended to do?

Your quote - Inferno - Would he have followed through with the strike? We Don't know - so you are infering an intent and guessing at an outcome.

Your quote - Wolf King - Well... Magnus wasn't executed so it is just plain ... worng. The more you quote this the more glad I am I haven't read it.

 

And I have stated clearly why I don't place faith on quotes like this. You rarely if ever get the full explaination behind why people are saying the things they do, so people go o the words alone. 

[LukeTheButcher]

And as it seems, the only point of agreement is that this is pointless, I don't intend to post further on this topic.

 

I have made my logical assumptions and interpretations clear. Russ's actions don't support the kill Magnus manipulation by Horus.

 

I still firmly believe that the architect of all this, the one with the power to have stopped it at will at nearly every juncture was Magnus.

 

If there is anyone responsible for Prospero it is Magnus, not Horus.

 

But you know. People. Internet.

[Huggtand]

LukeTheButcher, your last posts have a rather negative tone. To say that people have half hearted, highly amusing arguments and then imply that we other debating is, you know, people and internet, is a poor show. Remember it's you that are making claims that isn't supported anywhere.

 

You seem to forget that this is a fictional universe and what the author writes is what actually happens. If ADB writes that Sevetar eats an ice cream, that is a fact in universe. If James Swallow writes that Horus jumps on one leg and clucks like a chicken, that is what actually happens. When Dan abnett, Graham McNeill, Chris Wraight and Alan Bligh all writes that Horus manipulated Russ that is indeed also a fact that really happens in the HH universe. That you don't like it doesn't change that it's true.  

 

I and many other have tried to show you that the material do support Russ actions and the manipulation by Horus.

• The writ is just a capture order since big E want’s Magnus alive to answer for his crimes (and powering golden throne) (Inferno)
• He sends Russ because he knows Russ won’t hesitate to get the job (capturing Magnus) done whatever happens (Inferno)
• We know Russ can keep a primarch alive during battle by ordering his men to not shoot the big guy, as seen in the Night of the wolves (Betrayer)
• Horus send a communication to Russ to convince him that capturing Magnus was a waste of time (False Gods)
• We know that Russ has a quick temper as seen in Dulan and Shrike (Leman Russ: The Great Wolf, A Thousand Sons)
• Russ has no reason to disbelieve Horus if he changes the orders (Emperor's voice and all) and there is already bad blood between Russ and Magnus that Horus can play on (A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, Inferno)
• We know that Horus changed Russ mind, not to capture but to Kill Manus because Russ says so to his men and later admits that he did not follow the order from the Emperor but Horus. Valdor also protest against the change of intent (why would he do that if killing Magnus was implied in the original order?) (Inferno, Wolf King)
• Russ is a good hearted soul and when he cool down he gives Magnus one last chance to surrender, in defiance of Horus changed orders (Prospero Burns, Inferno) 
• When he doesn't get a response he get pissed off again, and go in for the kill (Prospero Burns, Inferno)
• We know he go in for the kill because the authors say that he does;
  "He battered his brother to the brink of death, brought down his blade for the final stroke" (Inferno)
  "He was executed" (Wolf King)
  "He killed Magnus mortal body" (The Crimson King)
• Technically Russ do indeed kill magnus since he only lives on as an astral projection. His mortal body is slain (Numerous novels)

So all of Russ actions have an explanation in the novels and FW Inferno. The only argument you actually have left is that you don't like that Russ can be manipulated. I'm sorry, but no primarch is perfect, they all make mistakes and gets manipulated during the whole Heresy. Why shouldn't Russ be manipulated, he has no reason to disbelieve Horus and he already tried to strike down Magnus on Shrike so there is already bad blood Horus can take advantage of.    

 

PS. You miss out on a really good book if you skip Wolf King.