New Knight Castellan Revealed!

[Tyriks]

I found the ironstorm surprisingly useful before the codex because its ideal targets are things Knights struggle with the most, it's cheap, and not needing LoS made it annoying for the enemy. Plus the cost made it an easy choice for me. With more knights on the table I'm sure I'll be using it even more now, since I rarely felt like I needed more anti-armor shots.

[Stray]

 

Just to clarify, the Armigers cannot charge and withdraw (unless they changed that), correct?  Just the regular knights, as they are super heavy walkers.  

 

 

Correct buddy. They get locked into combat.

[PiñaColada]

 

I don't see why they could not have made the CP requirement for a lance be 1 questoris/dominus. That would still stop armiger spam but at least give me more than. 6 CP if I run pure knights. It's a real pain,

I agree, it would be a fair compromise. I have already emailed GW my thoughts on the matter but it is worth sending them this suggestion. If enough of us pester them, there is a better chance they will relise they have dropped the ball on this one.

 

They raised the CPs from Battalions and Brigades precisely because they realised the original values didn't give people enough CPs to last beyond the first turn or two. Now to put such a harsh CP restriction on an army that can only use 1 Detachment for CP generation anyway is bonkers and will do nothing except encourage moe soup.

Yeah, as I wrote a few pages back getting more than two pure knight detachments that give out CP even if it's just one big knight per detachments is impossible at 2000 points.. 3x gallant and 6x armigers is more than 2k, but 9 CP would be enough for most players to not take an allied battalion.

 

I've written to GW about this and implore the other good people of this forum to do the same

[Karhedron]

 

I am really liking the idea of a Crusader with that trait. I also have a couple of Armiger Warblades with which to make up a Kightly Lance (although i realise it won't get the +3CPs RAW).

 

Lance (House Raven)

Crusader

Avenger (Endless Fury relic)

RFBC

Ironspear missiles

Ion Bulwark Warlord Trait

Armiger Warglaive with melta gun

Armiger Warglaive with melta gun

 

These guys can move up together and the Armigers melt heavy targets while the Crusader deals with lighter or more numerous targets. Knights are generally at their best when shooting, charging and then withdrawing in the next turn to rinse and repeat.

 

Just to clarify, the Armigers cannot charge and withdraw (unless they changed that), correct?  Just the regular knights, as they are super heavy walkers.

 

Yes, you are quite correct. I was thinking more of the Crusader with that last comment. Even so, given the improvements to the chainblade, Armigers should be able to deal enough damage in combat that being "locked in" will be at least as much a problem for the opponent as for them.

[frosteldar]

Perhaps not the best place to ask, but do we know how we make a knight list Battleforged?  I was just reviewing the Knight Lance rules and it has the caveat of your force being Battleforged before you can choose a knight to be a character in your detachment.  

 

I'll be running one armiger this Sat alongside my AdMech and trying to figure out if I will be able to make it a character and use traits etc.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Nothing like a 100ton walking semi-titan to make your day better <3

[Mushkilla]

So I sent the following to the rules team:

 

I'm writing regarding the Lance Formation from the new knights codex.

 

From the Imperial Knight Codex (which is an amazing codex by the way! ):

 

"Knight Lances

 

If your army is battle-forged, select one model in each Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Detachment in your army. That model gains the Character keyword. However, the command benefit of each Imperial Knight Super Heavy detachment is changed to none, unless it contains any combination of at least three Questorus Class, and/or Dominus Class unit"

 

From the big FAQ:

 

"When creating a Battle-forged army, the Battalion and Brigade Detachments are seen as not offering enough command points for the number of units you must include. As a result, we will increase the Battalion Detachment’s Command Benefits to +5 Command Points and the Brigade Detachment’s to +12 Command Points. These changes appear in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook errata, but are shown below for convenience."

 

From the blog post about the big FAQ:

 

"The rules team have done a great job of giving armies access to a whole host of characterful Stratagems to play with. The only issue was, Command Points were often in short supply, especially for ‘elite’ style armies. So, to reward players who build their lists using the Battalion and Brigade Detachments, we’re offering even more Command Points to these Troop-heavy forces."

 

The above change was done to help elite armies who couldn't get enough command points, compared to armies that can spam cheap battalions and brigades to get more command points, without fielding the now notorious Guard CP Battery (180 points guard battalion with, with CP regenerating warlord trait and relic).

 

So the reason for this email is to ask, why the imperial Knight Codex actively discourages running pure knights as an army?

 

In a 2000 point game my army can at most have 6CP if I run only imperial Knights. Yet the rules encourage me to run the notorious Imperial Guard CP battery, as for 180 points I can get an extra 5CP (bringing me up to 11CP) and the ability to regenerate CP.

 

I can understand that maybe detachments of 3 armigers could be exploited, I don't see how, but maybe something came up in playtesting.

 

I would suggest changing the rule to the following (changes in red):

 

"Knight Lances

 

If your army is battle-forged, select one model in each Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Detachment in your army. That model gains the Character keyword. However, the command benefit of each Imperial Knight Super Heavy detachment is changed to none, unless it contains at least one Questorus Class, and/or Dominus Class unit"

 

This allows, pure knight armies to at least have 9CP in a 2000 point game.

 

I really want to buy the new armiger models, but right now I'm holding back for these reasons, as the lance rule discourages me from running them.

Doubt it will make a difference. But worth a try. People are welcome to copy it as a template if they want to message the GW FAQ team at:

 

40kFAQ@gwplc.com

[Stray]

Perhaps not the best place to ask, but do we know how we make a knight list Battleforged?  I was just reviewing the Knight Lance rules and it has the caveat of your force being Battleforged before you can choose a knight to be a character in your detachment.  

 

I'll be running one armiger this Sat alongside my AdMech and trying to figure out if I will be able to make it a character and use traits etc.

 

Battleforged just means to a points value, using detachments, and with certain specific conditions really buddy. 

 

The two main conditions you need to be aware of are:

 

1) You can take no more than three detachments total.

2) You can take no individual datasheet more than 3 times in an army. For example, you could take no more than 3 Knight Gallants. Some models (like armigers), allow you to take them in units of up to three (or more), where this is the case, you can take 9 total (3x3) (or more obviously if that unit supports it - look for the wording in codexs: 'you may take up to X in this unit for x points').

 

The above technically are only suggestions for match play, but you'll find them pretty heavily enforced everywhere, so you may as well play to them, or assume you will be outside of your own gaming circle.

[Lysere]

 

Perhaps not the best place to ask, but do we know how we make a knight list Battleforged?  I was just reviewing the Knight Lance rules and it has the caveat of your force being Battleforged before you can choose a knight to be a character in your detachment.  

 

I'll be running one armiger this Sat alongside my AdMech and trying to figure out if I will be able to make it a character and use traits etc.

 

Battleforged just means to a points value, using detachments, and with certain specific conditions really buddy. 

 

The two main conditions you need to be aware of are:

 

1) You can take no more than three detachments total.

2) You can take no individual datasheet more than 3 times in an army. For example, you could take no more than 3 Knight Gallants. Some models (like armigers), allow you to take them in units of up to three (or more), where this is the case, you can take 9 total (3x3) (or more obviously if that unit supports it - look for the wording in codexs: 'you may take up to X in this unit for x points').

 

The above technically are only suggestions for match play, but you'll find them pretty heavily enforced everywhere, so you may as well play to them, or assume you will be outside of your own gaming circle.

 

 

That's only true for battleforged for 2k points. Higher or lower points will change that.

[Stray]

So I sent the following to the rules team:

 

I'm writing regarding the Lance Formation from the new knights codex.

 

From the Imperial Knight Codex (which is an amazing codex by the way! ):

 

"Knight Lances

 

If your army is battle-forged, select one model in each Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Detachment in your army. That model gains the Character keyword. However, the command benefit of each Imperial Knight Super Heavy detachment is changed to none, unless it contains any combination of at least three Questorus Class, and/or Dominus Class unit"

 

From the big FAQ:

 

"When creating a Battle-forged army, the Battalion and Brigade Detachments are seen as not offering enough command points for the number of units you must include. As a result, we will increase the Battalion Detachment’s Command Benefits to +5 Command Points and the Brigade Detachment’s to +12 Command Points. These changes appear in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook errata, but are shown below for convenience."

 

From the blog post about the big FAQ:

 

"The rules team have done a great job of giving armies access to a whole host of characterful Stratagems to play with. The only issue was, Command Points were often in short supply, especially for ‘elite’ style armies. So, to reward players who build their lists using the Battalion and Brigade Detachments, we’re offering even more Command Points to these Troop-heavy forces."

 

The above change was done to help elite armies who couldn't get enough command points, compared to armies that can spam cheap battalions and brigades to get more command points, without fielding the now notorious Guard CP Battery (180 points guard battalion with, with CP regenerating warlord trait and relic).

 

So the reason for this email is to ask, why the imperial Knight Codex actively discourages running pure knights as an army?

 

In a 2000 point game my army can at most have 6CP if I run only imperial Knights. Yet the rules encourage me to run the notorious Imperial Guard CP battery, as for 180 points I can get an extra 5CP (bringing me up to 11CP) and the ability to regenerate CP.

 

I can understand that maybe detachments of 3 armigers could be exploited, I don't see how, but maybe something came up in playtesting.

 

I would suggest changing the rule to the following (changes in red):

 

"Knight Lances

 

If your army is battle-forged, select one model in each Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Detachment in your army. That model gains the Character keyword. However, the command benefit of each Imperial Knight Super Heavy detachment is changed to none, unless it contains at least one Questorus Class, and/or Dominus Class unit"

 

This allows, pure knight armies to at least have 9CP in a 2000 point game.

 

I really want to buy the new armiger models, but right now I'm holding back for this reasons, as the lance rule discourages me from running them.

Doubt it will make a difference. But worth a try. People are welcome to copy it as a template if they want to message the GW FAQ team at:

 

40kFAQ@gwplc.com

 

 

Brilliantly and concisely argued Mushy. I'm sure it'll have an impact whatever they decide. Well done.

[Stray]

 

 

Perhaps not the best place to ask, but do we know how we make a knight list Battleforged?  I was just reviewing the Knight Lance rules and it has the caveat of your force being Battleforged before you can choose a knight to be a character in your detachment.  

 

I'll be running one armiger this Sat alongside my AdMech and trying to figure out if I will be able to make it a character and use traits etc.

 

Battleforged just means to a points value, using detachments, and with certain specific conditions really buddy. 

 

The two main conditions you need to be aware of are:

 

1) You can take no more than three detachments total.

2) You can take no individual datasheet more than 3 times in an army. For example, you could take no more than 3 Knight Gallants. Some models (like armigers), allow you to take them in units of up to three (or more), where this is the case, you can take 9 total (3x3) (or more obviously if that unit supports it - look for the wording in codexs: 'you may take up to X in this unit for x points').

 

The above technically are only suggestions for match play, but you'll find them pretty heavily enforced everywhere, so you may as well play to them, or assume you will be outside of your own gaming circle.

 

 

That's only true for battleforged for 2k points. Higher or lower points will change that.

 

 

Sure, but 2k's the standard. I don't recall the last time I found anyone playing to anything other than 2000 / 1750 outside of Apoc games or Kill teams really. That's especially true of Knights.

 

I figure it's better to keep an explanation simple and useful rather than add exhaustive detail that may not be needed. Though you're quite right to point out the exceptions!

[frosteldar]

Thanks to you both for the clarification!  I'm currently in an Escalation league and we're going with 40 Power Level.  Not really sure if the detachment/datasheet requirement is being enforced in the league, as we don't have any stipulations at the moment outside of PL.  But, will have a Battalion (Tech-Dominus + Enginseer, 5 rangers (including 2 arquebus, 5 vanguard with 2 plasma, 5 vanguard with 1 plasma, and 1 neutronager), and 1 armiger warglaive.

[Stray]

Thanks to you both for the clarification!  I'm currently in an Escalation league and we're going with 40 Power Level.  Not really sure if the detachment/datasheet requirement is being enforced in the league, as we don't have any stipulations at the moment outside of PL.  But, will have a Battalion (Tech-Dominus + Enginseer, 5 rangers (including 2 arquebus, 5 vanguard with 2 plasma, 5 vanguard with 1 plasma, 1 neutronager, and 1 armiger warglaive).

 

Dunno, you'll likely have to ask within your league there

 

You're probably fine to do whatever in your situation, but he detachment restrictions, as Lysere quite rightly mentions, do scale with points, so it may affect things for you if in place. 

The rule book section on this is out of date currently, but you'll find the updated rules on page 5 of the 'Big FAQ'.

 

Linky linky: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_The_Big_FAQ_1_2018_en.pdf

[Mekhitar]

As long as you don’t get CPs for triple Armiger detachments... or they will swiftly be as commonplace as triple bike captains!

 

Heck, I’d definitely run them as allies even without those cps. But with them, it’s a no brainer.

[Heliomanes]

As long as you don’t get CPs for triple Armiger detachments... or they will swiftly be as commonplace as triple bike captains!

 

Heck, I’d definitely run them as allies even without those cps. But with them, it’s a no brainer.

Why not? You get a Guard batallion for under 200 points. That's 5 CP.

[frosteldar]

 

Thanks to you both for the clarification!  I'm currently in an Escalation league and we're going with 40 Power Level.  Not really sure if the detachment/datasheet requirement is being enforced in the league, as we don't have any stipulations at the moment outside of PL.  But, will have a Battalion (Tech-Dominus + Enginseer, 5 rangers (including 2 arquebus, 5 vanguard with 2 plasma, 5 vanguard with 1 plasma, 1 neutronager, and 1 armiger warglaive).

 

Dunno, you'll likely have to ask within your league there

 

You're probably fine to do whatever in your situation, but he detachment restrictions, as Lysere quite rightly mentions, do scale with points, so it may affect things for you if in place. 

The rule book section on this is out of date currently, but you'll find the updated rules on page 5 of the 'Big FAQ'.

 

Linky linky: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_The_Big_FAQ_1_2018_en.pdf

 

Thanks for the link as well!  Looks like I should be alright as I have 2 detachments and 40 PL ~750-800 pts.  So I'll be covered in the "up to 1000 pts" section.  Then I can ask on Sat to see what is in effect for later in the league.  

[Mushkilla]

As long as you don’t get CPs for triple Armiger detachments... or they will swiftly be as commonplace as triple bike captains!

 

Heck, I’d definitely run them as allies even without those cps. But with them, it’s a no brainer.

Yeah that's why I suggested a lance still require at least one knight questoris or Dominus. But not three.

[PiñaColada]

The "1 big knight per detachment" seems to be the optimal solution. It would mean that you can't spam armigers and the way GW sold them to us 3 months ago would still be true..

[General Strike]

I sent the email to GW, maybe it will help.

[chapter master 454]

The core problem is the fact that the Battery Pack guardsman can always be brought along for 180 points (going to call them the Duracell Battalion from now on!) which not only gives you +5 CP but since it can be doubled for another 180 (360) means you could have 13 CP and just mass spam armigers which would in all reality defeat their attempt to prevent armiger spam. This happens no matter what and by including the Duracell battalion you now have effective point poly-fillas in the form of weapon choices on those guardsmen if you can't find anything else to put on knights. Heck, with the fact knights would constantly be able to cover your Duracell rechargable Battery (sometimes known as the Kurov-Mount) you don't need the guardsmen so just strap some cheap flamers on them and just shout at them with Move Move Move and from there the guardsmen do their job well enough.

 

Almost feels like the knights were parents who had to bring their children along because they couldn't find a babysitter XD

[Lysere]

The core problem is the fact that the Battery Pack guardsman can always be brought along for 180 points (going to call them the Duracell Battalion from now on!) which not only gives you +5 CP but since it can be doubled for another 180 (360) means you could have 13 CP and just mass spam armigers which would in all reality defeat their attempt to prevent armiger spam. This happens no matter what and by including the Duracell battalion you now have effective point poly-fillas in the form of weapon choices on those guardsmen if you can't find anything else to put on knights. Heck, with the fact knights would constantly be able to cover your Duracell rechargable Battery (sometimes known as the Kurov-Mount) you don't need the guardsmen so just strap some cheap flamers on them and just shout at them with Move Move Move and from there the guardsmen do their job well enough.

 

Almost feels like the knights were parents who had to bring their children along because they couldn't find a babysitter XD

 

With the limit of three detachments that will mean all your Armigers will be in one SHD with two Duracell battalions. I could run that and just big knights right now (if I had the guard for it) and it would probably do just fine. Since Armigers don't help with CP then I have no incentive to include them outside of their weapons and strats.

[jeffersonian000]

I’ve updated the letter above, and just sent:

 

Hope this finds you well.

 

I'm writing regarding the Lance Formation from the new knights codex.

 

From the Imperial Knight Codex:

 

"Knight Lances

 

If your army is battle-forged, select one model in each Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Detachment in your army. That model gains the Character keyword. However, the command benefit of each Imperial Knight Super Heavy detachment is changed to none, unless it contains any combination of at least three Questorus Class, and/or Dominus Class unit"

 

From the big FAQ:

 

“When creating a Battle-forged army, the Battalion and Brigade Detachments are seen as not offering enough command points for the number of units you must include. As a result, we will increase the Battalion Detachment’s Command Benefits to +5 Command Points and the Brigade Detachment’s to +12 Command Points. These changes appear in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook errata, but are shown below for convenience."

 

From the blog post about the big FAQ:

 

“The rules team have done a great job of giving armies access to a whole host of characterful Stratagems to play with. The only issue was, Command Points were often in short supply, especially for ‘elite’ style armies. So, to reward players who build their lists using the Battalion and Brigade Detachments, we’re offering even more Command Points to these Troop-heavy forces."

 

The above change was done to help elite armies who couldn't get enough command points, compared to armies that can spam cheap battalions and brigades to get more command points, without fielding the now notorious Guard CP Battery (180 points guard battalion with, with CP regenerating warlord trait and relic).

 

So the reason for this email is to ask, why the imperial Knight Codex actively discourages running pure knights as an army?

 

In a 2000 point game my army can at most have 6CP if I run only imperial Knights. Yet the rules encourage me to run the notorious Astra Militarum CP battery, as for 180 points I can get an extra 5CP (bringing me up to 11CP) and the ability to regenerate CP. In addition, it seems like the intention is to penalize players that take the new Armiger models, as there are literally no benefits for taking them when a similarly priced Guard Battery grants CP, ObSec, and CP regeneration.

 

It seems that there was a lack of communication between the introduction of Armigers in Forgebane, where we were told that Armigers will be a great source of cheap CP, and printing of the codex where Armigers deny CP from IK detachments. It is understandable that the increased CP cited in the Big FAQ occurred after the IK codex was already printed, however, with an official correction or explanation, I see no reason to purchase models I cannot use.

 

In addition, with official Grand Tournament point values dropping to 1750, the handicap given to IK armies does not encourage anyone to purchase the new models, due to the Dominus class being too expensive points wise, and the Armigers being useless for CP.

 

I for one will be encouraging players in my area to delay purchasing any of the new models until this issue is resolved favorably.

 

Thank you, and have a good day,

And yes, I encourage everyone with like feelings on this matter to vote with their wallets.

 

SJ

[Stray]

I love 40K, I'm fond of GW and their products, but as much as I admire the content they put out, I can't be blind to the fact that they can get as much wrong as they do right at times.

 

I think when we spot a legitimate issue like this, we should raise it politely and constructively. I think that's good for GW, for the community, and for the hobby. We never need have an us against them mentality, but we can benefit from us and them working together to make the game that much more coherent, approachable and fun.

 

If GW choose not to change things, and can provide good reasons - I'm ok with that. As long as they've listened honestly, and considered fairly.

 

I think the letters here are a good example of this. I'll definitely raise my voice as well and we'll see what happens 

[CommodusXIII]

Spamming the same basic letter and making demands isn't going to be as effective as you think.

[Stray]

Spamming the same basic letter and making demands isn't going to be as effective as you think.

 

I don't think it's about making demands, it's about pointing out an issue in the rules that can affect people to a higher degree of detriment than we believe was thought through, and also pointing out an inconsistency with a statement that they'd recently made. 

 

I think it's ok to give feedback and request they take another look. In fact, I think up to a point it's important.

 

I promise you plastic sisters of battle haven't just been placed on the production slate on a whim. They've been put there because enough people patiently asked.