Aegir_Einarsson Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 So in fact If I want household tradition, stratagems and relics i need to put one Questoris + 2 armigers. No CP, but it it's no problem. Then I can make questoris my warlord, take free relic, and take WT right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 It's confusing mostly because they've deviated from the usual rules this time. The codex is pretty clear on how things work, but few have had the chance to read it thoroughly. Think of it like this: Take detachments as you always did. When you do, you nominate a single model in that detachment to be a character. You now have a Lance. Lances get all keyword benefits, including traditions, but only generate any CP if you have three large Knights in the Lance. The exception is a Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment. These work as normal - just as they always have, but are specifically called out in the Codex as losing the Household Tradition Rule. Otherwise, they work no differently than they ever did, and key words mean strats etc are applicable without issue. The real confusion comes when you try and figure out if Lances are mandatory, or not. RAW, the codex implies they are. If that's the case, you can't do the whole 'take the old 3-9 Armigers in a normal SHD, lose special rules but gain CP' as we thought you could. Codex says 'If your army is battleforged, select one model in each IK SHD. That model becomes a character...' - creating a Lance. But it doesn't say 'you may', it just says 'do it'. So right now it seems to be you're either in an Aux, or you're in a Lance. There's no other option. That'd mean there is no scenario in which you ever gain CP for Armigers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 So in fact If I want household tradition, stratagems and relics i need to put one Questoris + 2 armigers. No CP, but it it's no problem. Then I can make questoris my warlord, take free relic, and take WT right? Yes, exactly right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 So in fact If I want household tradition, stratagems and relics i need to put one Questoris + 2 armigers. No CP, but it it's no problem. Then I can make questoris my warlord, take free relic, and take WT right? Yes, exactly right. I thought you need to have the charakter keyword to get a WLT, and the only way Knights get this Keyword is in a Lance Detachment or with the Stratagem, or am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 So in fact If I want household tradition, stratagems and relics i need to put one Questoris + 2 armigers. No CP, but it it's no problem. Then I can make questoris my warlord, take free relic, and take WT right? Yes, exactly right. I thought you need to have the charakter keyword to get a WLT, and the only way Knights get this Keyword is in a Lance Detachment or with the Stratagem, or am I wrong? You're right, but the detachment he's describing is a Lance. A Lance need not be three large Knights. You could technically have a Lance made up entirely of Armigers, you just wouldn't get CP for that Lance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 So in fact If I want household tradition, stratagems and relics i need to put one Questoris + 2 armigers. No CP, but it it's no problem. Then I can make questoris my warlord, take free relic, and take WT right? Yes, exactly right. I thought you need to have the charakter keyword to get a WLT, and the only way Knights get this Keyword is in a Lance Detachment or with the Stratagem, or am I wrong? You're right, but the detachment he's describing is a Lance. A Lance need not be three large Knights. You could technically have a Lance made up entirely of Armigers, you just wouldn't get CP for that Lance. Ah, I got trapped in that web of rules You are right, it is still a Lance, even if there is just 1 big Knight or even non... Another thing: What do you guys think is better on a Knight Gallant? 4++ against shooting WLT, 2+ Relic or 5++ Relic in CC? I tend to the 2+ save since I want to have the Landstrider WLT and with the Mechanicum Stratagem and Shroudpsalm he can get the benefits from cover for a 1+ save against shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegir_Einarsson Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 It wounds Nice (1 option). As I’m planing going impreialis I would go nightshtroud (wounds count double), 4++ And 2+, or 5++ in combat. I don’t know What would be better 2+ or 5++... any opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneakybamsen Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I still firmly believe all this nonsense about armigers in effect not granting CP is a misunderstanding, or at least going to be fixed in the FAQ which will undoubtedly come soon after release. If not, my plans for a pure knights 2K list are screwed. At least you won't be able to get more than 6CP with the lance rule and not getting CP by anything but regular knights or bigger in a 2K list which is just killing pure knights for competitive play right there. All that aside, CP mechanics need work. Pure armies shouldn't be penalized for not bringing chaff and cheap HQ's. I've been thinking about how you could make detachments work better recently, especially now with the knights (and custodes) being so CP heavy to work. I won't say you should discourage allies, just make the gain smaller. How? Still let detachments grant CP, but for example let every detachment reward one CP for every 100 or 200 points spent on models in it, so that min sized detachments are no longer such a sweet deal. Makes a 1200 point battalion give you 11CP for instance (6 CP for points spent, 5 for being a battalion, afterall there's still the requirements to the detachment of bringing certain unit types). Just an example. I think this would help give especially single codex lists a better chance of having the CP they need. You'd still be able to use min sized detachment (a guard battalion would still be 5CP, unless that flat bonus is changed), but reward a fleshed out battalion (they said before 8th was release that they'd give fluffier armies benefits, which the current system doesn't). If it's enough to do as I suggested, I don't know, others might find flaws with the above I haven't spotted. Will it inflate command points? Maybe, but with certain armies at least, action is needed. Regards Sneaks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 It wounds Nice (1 option). As I’m planing going impreialis I would go nightshtroud (wounds count double), 4++ And 2+, or 5++ in combat. I don’t know What would be better 2+ or 5++... any opinions? Tough call. I think it depends on whether you will be facing CC weapons with AP-4 or better (and there aren't a lot of them except on other Knight-sized opponents). If you are facing normal opponents armed with things like Thunder Hammers and DCCWs (or below) then the 2+ save will be much better since you still get a 5+ in CC against those weapons and you save against lesser weapons (in both CC and shooting) will be much improved. You only want a 5++ in combat if you are facing really nasty CCWs. I would take the 2+ save in most cases since it will benefit you against both shooting and CC and is just as good in CC up to AP-3 (and better below that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 So in fact If I want household tradition, stratagems and relics i need to put one Questoris + 2 armigers. No CP, but it it's no problem. Then I can make questoris my warlord, take free relic, and take WT right? Yes, exactly right. I thought you need to have the charakter keyword to get a WLT, and the only way Knights get this Keyword is in a Lance Detachment or with the Stratagem, or am I wrong? You're right, but the detachment he's describing is a Lance. A Lance need not be three large Knights. You could technically have a Lance made up entirely of Armigers, you just wouldn't get CP for that Lance. Ah, I got trapped in that web of rules You are right, it is still a Lance, even if there is just 1 big Knight or even non... Another thing: What do you guys think is better on a Knight Gallant? 4++ against shooting WLT, 2+ Relic or 5++ Relic in CC? I tend to the 2+ save since I want to have the Landstrider WLT and with the Mechanicum Stratagem and Shroudpsalm he can get the benefits from cover for a 1+ save against shooting. You're trapped in the web o' rules again buddy (arggh spiders!) You can only use the strats from the Mechanicus Codex (that will allow you to benefit from canticles) if your Knight is in an Ad Mech detachment. If it's in an Ad Mech detachment, then you can't add IK strats to get the relics and traits. Strats are only legal on their factions detachments savvy? It sucks, but 'tis a thing :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegir_Einarsson Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Right. I didn’t thought about. Only melta would be exeption. Probably Unless i would face mortarion or some other nastieness i would go 2+. In addition to double wound count it would be nice. And as gallant is questoris it is only 1CP to rogate Ion shields for 3++ against shooting. Nice. Thanks for advice!:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushkilla Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 You're trapped in the web o' rules again buddy (arggh spiders!) You can only use the strats from the Mechanicus Codex (that will allow you to benefit from canticles) if your Knight is in an Ad Mech detachment. If it's in an Ad Mech detachment, then you can't add IK strats to get the relics and traits. Strats are only legal on their factions detachments savvy? It sucks, but 'tis a thing :/ You can't run a knight in an admech detachment, as knights don't have the admech keyword so can never be in an admech detachment. You never could. You just need an admech detachment to get knight of the cog. So for example if you run a lance of knights and an admech battalion you get access to the new knight stratagems and the admech stratagems. If that makes sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 *snip*You're trapped in the web o' rules again buddy (arggh spiders!) You can only use the strats from the Mechanicus Codex (that will allow you to benefit from canticles) if your Knight is in an Ad Mech detachment. If it's in an Ad Mech detachment, then you can't add IK strats to get the relics and traits. Strats are only legal on their factions detachments savvy? It sucks, but 'tis a thing :/ Not true. From the BRB FAQ: Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from one codex to target a unit from another? A: Yes, so long as the unit the Stratagem is being used on has the appropriate keywords (note that the Stratagems in Codex: Chaos Daemons and Codex: Tyranids are specific exceptions to this, as discussed in the relevant FAQs and Errata). For example, you can use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment (from Codex: Death Guard) if your army has both an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army. Also note that the only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. I don't have my AdMech codex handy, so it'll depend on the wording of the stratagem, but it should work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 What a mess, regarding the Strategems. So if I'm reading this correctly, I can use both Questor Imperialis and Mechanicus Strategems if I have a Detachment of each? Does this mean that a Questor Imperialis Knight would be able to benefit from Questor Mechanicus-only Strategems as long as I'm using a Detachment from both factions in my army? That sounds incredibly RAW-disgusting, FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 What a mess, regarding the Strategems. So if I'm reading this correctly, I can use both Questor Imperialis and Mechanicus Strategems if I have a Detachment of each? Does this mean that a Questor Imperialis Knight would be able to benefit from Questor Mechanicus-only Strategems as long as I'm using a Detachment from both factions in my army? That sounds incredibly RAW-disgusting, FWIW Machine Spirit Resurgent, Knight of the Cog, and whatever the third one was only work on Questor Mechanicus knights so you can't use them on Imperial knights. Also Canticles requires every model in the detachment to have the rule for it to work so Knight of the Cog only works with one knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frosteldar Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Ignore - I saw my question was answered a few more posts down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Ughh, yeah, you're right. I'd forgotten entirely about the 'Battle Brothers' stuff and mixed detachment rules that were FAQ'd recently. What a mess indeed. This is the sort of stuff that happens when you aren't tracking and managing your rules from book to book effectively. Want to use 'Rotate Ion Shields' on your Dominus Knight for 1CP? Use the Chapter Approved version of that strat. It's legal, and nothing RAW states anywhere that you can't, or that CA content is invalid because the Codex is out - but it's shady as anything because it's clearly not intended to work that way. But then, playing devils advocate, if we say the IK strat from that book no longer applies because 'codex', the argument can also be made for IK strats in Codex: Mechanicus too. I'm not saying that I think the above is the case here folks :) - just that it's a mess. FAQ's help, but in many ways I think it'd be better to (for digital codexes at least), update them and allow free re-downloading or something for purchasers. Physical codexes could come with a free digital copy. Something to help mitigate all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focslain Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Ughh, yeah, you're right. I'd forgotten entirely about the 'Battle Brothers' stuff and mixed detachment rules that were FAQ'd recently. What a mess indeed. This is the sort of stuff that happens when you aren't tracking and managing your rules from book to book effectively. Want to use 'Rotate Ion Shields' on your Dominus Knight for 1CP? Use the Chapter Approved version of that strat. It's legal, and nothing RAW states anywhere that you can't, or that CA content is invalid because the Codex is out - but it's shady as anything because it's clearly not intended to work that way. But then, playing devils advocate, if we say the IK strat from that book no longer applies because 'codex', the argument can also be made for IK strats in Codex: Mechanicus too. I'm not saying that I think the above is the case here folks - just that it's a mess. FAQ's help, but in many ways I think it'd be better to (for digital codexes at least), update them and allow free re-downloading or something for purchasers. Physical codexes could come with a free digital copy. Something to help mitigate all this. Honestly I wouldn't mind paying an extra $5 for a digital version that stayed updated when I get the physical book. Would solve a large amount of issues too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Ughh, yeah, you're right. I'd forgotten entirely about the 'Battle Brothers' stuff and mixed detachment rules that were FAQ'd recently. What a mess indeed. This is the sort of stuff that happens when you aren't tracking and managing your rules from book to book effectively. Want to use 'Rotate Ion Shields' on your Dominus Knight for 1CP? Use the Chapter Approved version of that strat. It's legal, and nothing RAW states anywhere that you can't, or that CA content is invalid because the Codex is out - but it's shady as anything because it's clearly not intended to work that way. But then, playing devils advocate, if we say the IK strat from that book no longer applies because 'codex', the argument can also be made for IK strats in Codex: Mechanicus too. I'm not saying that I think the above is the case here folks - just that it's a mess. FAQ's help, but in many ways I think it'd be better to (for digital codexes at least), update them and allow free re-downloading or something for purchasers. Physical codexes could come with a free digital copy. Something to help mitigate all this. If anyone tried that, they're getting Dread-socked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Ughh, yeah, you're right. I'd forgotten entirely about the 'Battle Brothers' stuff and mixed detachment rules that were FAQ'd recently. What a mess indeed. This is the sort of stuff that happens when you aren't tracking and managing your rules from book to book effectively. Want to use 'Rotate Ion Shields' on your Dominus Knight for 1CP? Use the Chapter Approved version of that strat. It's legal, and nothing RAW states anywhere that you can't, or that CA content is invalid because the Codex is out - but it's shady as anything because it's clearly not intended to work that way. But then, playing devils advocate, if we say the IK strat from that book no longer applies because 'codex', the argument can also be made for IK strats in Codex: Mechanicus too. I'm not saying that I think the above is the case here folks - just that it's a mess. FAQ's help, but in many ways I think it'd be better to (for digital codexes at least), update them and allow free re-downloading or something for purchasers. Physical codexes could come with a free digital copy. Something to help mitigate all this. You use the most up to date rules, and CA doesn't have the same rule as the index which allows you to still use it so it's replaced by the stratagem of the same name. You might be able to make a case for the one with the mechanicus but that one will be FAQd if people begin to even attempt that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Ughh, yeah, you're right. I'd forgotten entirely about the 'Battle Brothers' stuff and mixed detachment rules that were FAQ'd recently. What a mess indeed. This is the sort of stuff that happens when you aren't tracking and managing your rules from book to book effectively. Want to use 'Rotate Ion Shields' on your Dominus Knight for 1CP? Use the Chapter Approved version of that strat. It's legal, and nothing RAW states anywhere that you can't, or that CA content is invalid because the Codex is out - but it's shady as anything because it's clearly not intended to work that way. But then, playing devils advocate, if we say the IK strat from that book no longer applies because 'codex', the argument can also be made for IK strats in Codex: Mechanicus too. I'm not saying that I think the above is the case here folks - just that it's a mess. FAQ's help, but in many ways I think it'd be better to (for digital codexes at least), update them and allow free re-downloading or something for purchasers. Physical codexes could come with a free digital copy. Something to help mitigate all this. If anyone tried that, they're getting Dread-socked. The damn strat exists in Codex Mechanicus too. Same cost, so RAW a Questor Mechanicus Dominus could rotate for 1CP. It's a complete mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Ughh, yeah, you're right. I'd forgotten entirely about the 'Battle Brothers' stuff and mixed detachment rules that were FAQ'd recently. What a mess indeed. This is the sort of stuff that happens when you aren't tracking and managing your rules from book to book effectively. Want to use 'Rotate Ion Shields' on your Dominus Knight for 1CP? Use the Chapter Approved version of that strat. It's legal, and nothing RAW states anywhere that you can't, or that CA content is invalid because the Codex is out - but it's shady as anything because it's clearly not intended to work that way. But then, playing devils advocate, if we say the IK strat from that book no longer applies because 'codex', the argument can also be made for IK strats in Codex: Mechanicus too. I'm not saying that I think the above is the case here folks - just that it's a mess. FAQ's help, but in many ways I think it'd be better to (for digital codexes at least), update them and allow free re-downloading or something for purchasers. Physical codexes could come with a free digital copy. Something to help mitigate all this. You use the most up to date rules, and CA doesn't have the same rule as the index which allows you to still use it so it's replaced by the stratagem of the same name. You might be able to make a case for the one with the mechanicus but that one will be FAQd if people begin to even attempt that. Do I? At what point do the CA rules become out of date? When a codex releases? When a strat of the same name is released in another publication? When an official FAQ is sent out? Does everything in CA 2018 become invalid when CA 2019 is released? This is a purposefully facetious example Lysere, but you see the problem? My interpretation is the same as yours here, but that isn't going to hold true for everyone, and it's really not hard to see why :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommodusXIII Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 *snip*You're trapped in the web o' rules again buddy (arggh spiders!) You can only use the strats from the Mechanicus Codex (that will allow you to benefit from canticles) if your Knight is in an Ad Mech detachment. If it's in an Ad Mech detachment, then you can't add IK strats to get the relics and traits. Strats are only legal on their factions detachments savvy? It sucks, but 'tis a thing :/ Not true. From the BRB FAQ: Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from one codex to target a unit from another? A: Yes, so long as the unit the Stratagem is being used on has the appropriate keywords (note that the Stratagems in Codex: Chaos Daemons and Codex: Tyranids are specific exceptions to this, as discussed in the relevant FAQs and Errata). For example, you can use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment (from Codex: Death Guard) if your army has both an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army. Also note that the only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. I don't have my AdMech codex handy, so it'll depend on the wording of the stratagem, but it should work. Does that means that Questor Mechanicus can use the old Rotate Ion Shields for 1 CP on the Dominus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Does that means that Questor Mechanicus can use the old Rotate Ion Shields for 1 CP on the Dominus? RAI: Probably not. RAW: Well....... maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Does that means that Questor Mechanicus can use the old Rotate Ion Shields for 1 CP on the Dominus? RAI: Probably not. RAW: Well....... maybe. If they bring a detachment of Adeptus Mechanicus to get the strat... Sadly yes - though I'd expect this to be FAQd. BUT ON THE SUBJECT OF NEWS: GW JUST CONFIRMED ON FB THAT THE DOMINUS HEAD FITS A QUESTORIS & VICEVERSA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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