the big fat errata(Released!)

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

 

 

Wish they'd add the simplest rule of extra attacks when charging in... but GW usually does the Kylo Ren (Star Wars reference) joke of "Let the Past Die, Kill it if you have to..."

 

So I highly doubt I'd be seeing this make a comeback... but I guess it works for BA, Orks, Khorne and Nids, and as far as GW is concerned those are the only melee armies out there, so why boost melee effectiveness for the Templars when they are primarily a shooting army...

 

When is the errata/FAQ coming out, so I could at least make a decision if a comeback into gaming is appropriate or not...

 

 

because they are not... Not even normal Ultramarines are a "shooty" army. At the moment they are better in shooting then to be in melee - but Terminators, Vanguard, Assault Squad are not a shooty unit.

Just because you have some assault elements it doesn't mean you aren't a shooty army. By that logic anything that isn't T'au is no shooty army lol

 

Also Assault Squads are no real melee units either. They can have two special weapons, an eviscerator and a power weapon on the sergeant. The Chainswords barely matter since they're lacking an attack compared to veterans anyway. That makes them more shooty than choppy but actually the only thing they are is being mobile. Hence why nobody is taking them currently.

 

Terminators also exist as shooty and as choppy variant so simply saying “Terminators“ isn't right either.

 

Face it, Marines are primarily a shooty army. With some assault elements, yes, but mainly shooty.

The thing is that Marines at their core are jack of all trades with their base stats of WS3+, BS3+, S4, T4 and Sv3+. It's just that the unit and weapon options leans way more towards shooty than towards choppy unless you play BA or SW.

 

okay - we are too focused on one side. SM are normally both. If you look on the codex Astartes (fluff). A normal fluffy company have a normal squad (tactical) which should do everything. Devastors for shooting and Assault for Close combat. Even the normal veterans are both - vanguard and sternguards. Even Terminators can both. Problem is just that in terms of design, they made shooting so much stronger.

 

SM are still Allrounder. (better said, they should be... but they are not).

 

 

In a fluff perspective, Space Marines are both, on the table however they lean towards shooting, but that isn't the issue here... the issue is Black Templars, Templars primarily should lean towards being a viable Assault army, more akin to Space Wolves, Tyranids or Orks, not overly powerful as Khorne armies or Blood Angel armies, but not as weak in melee as a vanilla Space Marine army... now in it's current meta, we are only ever so slightly above Vanilla thanks to rerolls in Assault, Crusader Squads and the Emperor's Champion... are we on par with Space Wolves? definitely not... in terms of hitting power and capability to get in the enemies face, they would be better than us... are we as dangerous in melee as Orks? Close, but they are far more designed to be choppy than us...

 

So what are BT in 8th edition designed for? Shooting primarily, with only a minimal advantage over Vanilla but not as good as Space Wolves... the point is that, in fluff, Templars should not be in the same bracket as Vanilla Space Marines in being an all-rounder army, they should be leaning mostly towards getting in the opponents face and cutting it thoroughly with a sword, but as it stands right now, we really can't lean too much in that department, since our boys don't hit hard and we really don't have decent means to get there either (transports this edition are overly priced)... not to mention that the core rules themselves lean towards shooting and the book that we find our army stuck on is heavily shooting oriented...

 

And that's what everyone who plays BT wishes they'd fix in any errata/FAQ/Chapter Approved... that they fix melee so it becomes a far more viable and tempting option again for Black Templar players... similar to how we were in previous editions where we both hit hard and can get there quick enough (3rd or fourth I think, where we had rules that exemplify melee capabilities of Templars)

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Ah, Third. Boy did we kick arse...

People may not remember it now, but back in the days of weapon skill and initiative, space marines often would hit on 4s in close combat. But not BTs, with Accept any Challenge, we would swing in to combat, 15 men, say 7 initiates with Chainswords, one with Power Sword, I also had a flamer and a Multi Melta for balance, plus 5 neos, that was 40 attacks on the charge, PLUS THE POWER SWORD! Hitting on threes! THREES!

Even the Orks were scared of us then.

[Medjugorje]

Ah, Third. Boy did we kick arse...

 

People may not remember it now, but back in the days of weapon skill and initiative, space marines often would hit on 4s in close combat. But not BTs, with Accept any Challenge, we would swing in to combat, 15 men, say 7 initiates with Chainswords, one with Power Sword, I also had a flamer and a Multi Melta for balance, plus 5 neos, that was 40 attacks on the charge, PLUS THE POWER SWORD! Hitting on threes! THREES!

 

Even the Orks were scared of us then.

that was the reason I hoped for a chapter tactic +1 to hit in every fight phase... and r.z. just if you have casulties.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

We're already currently hitting on 3+ regardless of what opponent you have so having it bumped up to 2+ isn't that useful imho (you can't be rolling that bad to need 2+ to Hit in melee all the time...) I'd like us to have our weight of attacks back if that is at all possible... Grimaldus has a boost like that, but it only works for individual models around Grimaldus... not to mention it requires a Hit roll of a 6... if Templars had a Chapter Tactic that would increase their weight of attack, even if just on the charge, or if we had Grimaldus rule as an army wide rule and change his attack boost aura to something similar to Uphold the Honour of the Emperor vow (6+ Invulnerable Save) then I'd take it...

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, we need weight back, not +1.

[Dark_Jober]

We're already currently hitting on 3+ regardless of what opponent you have so having it bumped up to 2+ isn't that useful imho (you can't be rolling that bad to need 2+ to Hit in melee all the time...) I'd like us to have our weight of attacks back if that is at all possible... Grimaldus has a boost like that, but it only works for individual models around Grimaldus... not to mention it requires a Hit roll of a 6... if Templars had a Chapter Tactic that would increase their weight of attack, even if just on the charge, or if we had Grimaldus rule as an army wide rule and change his attack boost aura to something similar to Uphold the Honour of the Emperor vow (6+ Invulnerable Save) then I'd take it...

 

Well... I really like the idea of recovering the Vows, but people could say that it will be too different from other codex, so these are my ideas:

 

Vows as Icons: Chaos Space Marines has some Icons you can buy (Khorne, Slaanesh, etc.) and gives them some extra rules, why not buying an EC and paying the icon but simply named "Vow" we could have our vows back.

 

Vows as Stratagems: It is the easiest way, in a BT codex, the vows are the thematic stratagems. Abhor the Witch seems well implemented so... why not adding the others?

• Suffer Not the Unclean to Live: Many khorne units has +1S when charging and +1A, or even a Red Thirst... +1S or +1A could be nice for +1CP or 2CP. Or even Excess of Violence
• Uphold the Honour of the Emperor: 1CP-> 6+ Invul or even 5-6+ FNP for one turn... Or Iron Within, Iron Without...
• Abhor the Witch. Destroy the Witch: Well... we have Abhor the Witch as stratagem... maybe Destroy the Witch could be another against Psykers...
• Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds: Maybe similar to Honour the Chapter...

 

Vows as Relics: There are relics only for the Ancients... why not Relics for the EC? It will force to include the EC for receiving the better improvements, really fluffy, isnt it?

 

Vows as Warlord Traits: Why not? Every faction has its own Warlord Traits...

[Acebaur]

I hate to temper the enthusiasm but we aren't getting vows back. It's just not going to happen in an errata. The most I think we can realistically hope for is some points drops on key units.

 

Also we have a Warlord trait and the EC doesn't get relics because he already has two.

[Schlitzaf]

I hate to temper the enthusiasm but we aren't getting vows back. It's just not going to happen in an errata. The most I think we can realistically hope for is some points drops on key units.

 

Also we have a Warlord trait and the EC doesn't get relics because he already has two.

Well Ace....our specials kinda give back our vows, Helbrect gives Suffer Not, and Grimaldus is a modified version of Accept Any. Our Strategem is retooled Abhor. Really the only vow we don’t have this edition is Uphold.

 

The best we can hope is a small tweak to our tactics and +Small Buff to our Crusader Squads. (Like adding in addition to reroll charges our unit get an additional attack when using a weapon that has a AP -1 or greater in melee). Melee Crusader Squads would have 5 Power Weapon attacks for example and it separate us from more alphy of World Eaters and Blood Angel styled tactics.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't see why they need to be strategies, they could just work like SoB acts of faith. That's what we should be emulating, especially now we're supposedly all pro-ecclesiarchy.

[Medjugorje]

I hate to temper the enthusiasm but we aren't getting vows back. It's just not going to happen in an errata. The most I think we can realistically hope for is some points drops on key units.

 

Also we have a Warlord trait and the EC doesn't get relics because he already has two.

 

most players go further... they see a codex in horizon...

 

I want it, I really want that. But for the moment i just hope for a few upgrades or point reductions.

[4ndroid]

I would love a codex after 4 loses, including two tables 

My 20man Crusader squads got absolutely wrecked by Mortarion :( 

I'd hate to have to repaint my army to something more useful at this point

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I would love a codex after 4 loses, including two tables 

My 20man Crusader squads got absolutely wrecked by Mortarion

I'd hate to have to repaint my army to something more useful at this point

 

That's a Primarch... a 20 man Squad wouldn't have been enough to take him off the table... I tried to kill Magnus once with 2 Las Preds a Land Raider Crusader and 2 Land Speeder Typhoons and he walked it off with 3 wounds left... fighting a Primarch will always be an uphill battle, especially if you use meager S4 AP- against a towering flying psychic behemoth...

 

Templars are useful, but they lack the melee oomph they've had in previous editions, they are powerful in shooting, similar to other Chapters in the C:SM, but against Morty, Robby G or Magnus, you might want to bring every gun you have to bear on them otherwise you'll definitely looking at being tabled within a few turns...

[Ray_K]

When is this errata coming out? I thought it was due already.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

When is this errata coming out? I thought it was due already.

 

From what I heard it was delayed due to some OP stuff that transpired in a tourney and they had to revise a lot of the rules... do more play testing... do some more revisions, then some more play testing...

 

Might as well wait for 41 Millenniums to get this years errata... 

[Medjugorje]

 

I would love a codex after 4 loses, including two tables 

My 20man Crusader squads got absolutely wrecked by Mortarion

I'd hate to have to repaint my army to something more useful at this point

 

That's a Primarch... a 20 man Squad wouldn't have been enough to take him off the table... I tried to kill Magnus once with 2 Las Preds a Land Raider Crusader and 2 Land Speeder Typhoons and he walked it off with 3 wounds left... fighting a Primarch will always be an uphill battle, especially if you use meager S4 AP- against a towering flying psychic behemoth...

 

Templars are useful, but they lack the melee oomph they've had in previous editions, they are powerful in shooting, similar to other Chapters in the C:SM, but against Morty, Robby G or Magnus, you might want to bring every gun you have to bear on them otherwise you'll definitely looking at being tabled within a few turns...

 

maybe we have to wait for Dorn himself

[Panzer]

When is this errata coming out? I thought it was due already.

It is more than due already. It was supposed to come out in March and last thing we heared was after Adepticon that they're going to delay it due recent insights (aka Flyrant spam&Co ... who would've thought  ). I still expect it to come out this month but I wouldn't be overly surprised if it comes out next month.

[Acebaur]

I think that folks are trying to force Templars into a pure CC force which has never been what they are about. Yes they have a preference for fighting up close but they are not and never have been a pure cc force. I think that we can be competitive with focused cc elements but you still need to have a good fire base to ensure those units get to cc and kill what they need to.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Acebaur you're right, but the codex arms race has surpassed us so quickly after chapter approved came out that any style of vanilla space marine army without guilliman is basically just not a threat anymore.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I think that folks are trying to force Templars into a pure CC force which has never been what they are about. Yes they have a preference for fighting up close but they are not and never have been a pure cc force. I think that we can be competitive with focused cc elements but you still need to have a good fire base to ensure those units get to cc and kill what they need to.

 

Yes, but that's where it all falls flat as well... Templars as you have mentioned have a preference for close combat, but they need to be backed up by a strong shooting fire base to keep them going... this is similar to most CC army out there right now, such as Blood Angels and Space Wolves, those 2 armies are loyalists, that has access to Primaris, has more than decent ranged options in the form of Devastators, Predators and technically almost everything we have as well, but they completely out shine our Chapter's unique melee specialists with their own... TWC will tear our Crusader Squads apart and even worse if we fought Blood Angels in their own turf... I'm not saying we should be completely focused on melee, but maybe at the least give us the same capability in melee to compete against Space Wolves or Chaos Marines even, because as it stands for now, our melee capabilities pale in comparison to most armies out there with a half decent melee option... Crusader Squads just don't cut it anymore, especially with the loss of so many boost that those squads used to have... we do have a decent fire base, but there just isn't anything half decent in our army, but as for melee, we have the same stuff as our Vanilla brothers... maybe just a Chapter Tactic boost that makes us more of the Renegade Marines which has a massive threat range due to being able to advance and assault on the same turn...

 

We just need the extra CC punch that's all... but we can't... because we are a melee focused Chapter stuck in one of the shootiest codex in 8th edition...

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't think Marines are even that good at shooting.

[Acebaur]

@Roujakis I don't think TWC and Crusaders is a fair comparison in the slightest. One is a troops choice and the other an elite style unit. A more fair comparison would be Assault TDA with Helbrecht vs TWC. 

[Marshal_Roujakis]

@Roujakis I don't think TWC and Crusaders is a fair comparison in the slightest. One is a troops choice and the other an elite style unit. A more fair comparison would be Assault TDA with Helbrecht vs TWC. 

 

Well... it was the unique thing in the Space Wolves category... and if you're going to include Helbrecht with Assault TDA, then you might as well include Canis with the TWC or Logan Grimnar himself since he's on par with Helbrecht in terms of rank... but as a comparison, Crusader Squads would be comparable to Space Wolf Blood Claws or Grey Hunters... can they hold a candle against them?

 

In terms of melee against the Blood Claws, it depends on the number of Crusaders in the squad...on equal numbers, Blood Claws will tear them to shreds... against Grey Hunters in melee, they would be just as capable if not a tiny bit thanks to the extra Power Weapon we could have in our squad, but they are more utilitarian than Crusader Squads thanks to 3 weapon equipment capability... that only Honour Guard in the Vanilla Codex can do...

 

so, most of us just asks for an even playing field with armies not specifically melee-focused like the wolves or Orks, but has the capability to hit fast and hard in melee as opposed to the current situation of smacking our enemies with arms made out of wet noodles... 

[Acebaur]

Meh, Blood Claws are only better if they get the charge. Otherwise they are worse due to one less PW in the squad. And both GH and BC suffer from lack of utility. Templars can go min squad size and take multiple weapons while the SW can only do that for ever 5. This alone makes Crusaders more versatile than SW, not to mention the fact that they are either the same or more expensive in points and we can take Neophytes to bring out cost down further. 

[Schlitzaf]

Well Grey Hunters at 10, are optimal at melee, and ranged, 4 CoolBros to our 3. And 5 Power Weapon, Faux Tactics (rerolls 1 in advance and charge) and 3.5 specials. Like by raw math, Grey Hunters and Crusaders are more or less equal. They are just ‘best’ in two different ways.

 

Grey Hunter with 3.5 Plasma and 4 Power Weapons, 6 Chain/BolterBros, are flexible but also high cost per model (the net cost of them 20ish Points per Model, 68 Points of Upgrade PPM 13) and able to put high amounts of how AP/Damage Fire Power and effective at 6-12-24. While Crusaders are 14.5ish Points (36 Points of upgrades for 14 men base PPM 12) or more expensive in case of MSU. But basically where Grey Hunters go route of Cult, Ordos and Intercessors by increase net PPM we decrease ours. For context a Tactical is give or take 17ish Points per model. 10 Grey Hunters Cost about 30 more Points while 10 Crusaders Cost 30 less Points or a 5 Marine Difference between Hunters and Crusaders.

 

Long story short; Both Crusaders and Hunters are equally good. We are just each different in our own ways.

[SydonianDragoon404]

If we're even with the Wolves right now, just imagine what they'll be like when they get their codex if current trends hold up. Don't forget, they don't even have their "chapter tactic" yet, and hell GW might pull something crazy. 

 

I've been talking about it with some of guys at the LGS, why would GW wait this long? We had rumors for a good while that the next loyalist primarch was The Lion. Dark Angel codex came out... radio silence. Nothing. Both the DA and BA are out now, and deathwatch is on its way here soon. Not a word, not a single peep on the SW codex. Why? Think about it. The timing is so freaking right for the next Primarch to be Leman Russ. It makes a lot of sense, especially if we're looking at a late summer or perhaps early winter release depending on how big the Ork release is and what they have slated next for sigmar. 

 

Hell, GW might even give them Saga traits for SW successors. The sky's the limit. All that can be surmised right now is that if SW are already decent, or even with us at the moment, they'll likely be quite powerful once their codex is out. They'll get points drops across the board on their special units and heroes like everyone else, and then a chapter tactic on top of it.